IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-06-02
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17:11:30 <luaduck> Forwarding a question from /r/openttd: has the idea of an in-game version updater ever been considered by the team?
17:13:21 <__ln__> what would be the point?
17:14:00 <Eddi|zuHause> like windows nags you to update to windows 10?
17:14:03 <luaduck> for some reason, a number of users this update seemed to query it
17:14:19 <Hiddenfunstuff> For some reason it seems too much effort to go to the website and download new version
17:14:20 <luaduck> I think they just want something like "click here to update to the latest version" ala NewGRFs
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17:14:30 <luaduck> yeah I do agree it seems like major laziness on their part
17:14:32 <Hiddenfunstuff> it doesnt even require unisntallations or anything.. it saves even the settings..
17:14:44 <Hiddenfunstuff> it takes like 3 mins max..
17:14:56 <Eddi|zuHause> luaduck: but this poses all kinds of "run as administrator" problems
17:15:15 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure if it's worth the hassle
17:15:19 <Hiddenfunstuff> Ah yes windows permission problems, we have dismissed that claim..
17:16:32 <luaduck> I've never seen it as a problem personally but clearly some people feel strongly enough about it to make a post
17:16:41 <luaduck> even though making that post probably took longer than downloading the update
17:17:05 <Eddi|zuHause> it's probably a valid question. but i don't see it happening any time soon
17:18:11 <Alberth> it'd need support at all our platforms
17:18:45 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: that is not a valid reason at all. download of opengfx on first startup isn't supported on all platforms either
17:20:09 <Taede> also, should it handle updating to non-stable version?
17:20:27 <planetmaker> you'd probably choose update-plans :)
17:21:06 <planetmaker> automatically updating probably is not even what most players want.
17:21:19 <planetmaker> they want an update to whatever their favourite server runs
17:21:23 <Taede> they want the version that runs on the server they wish to join
17:21:31 <planetmaker> and that's solved by all those auto-updaters listed in that webpage
17:22:55 <Hiddenfunstuff> theres no end to some people's laziness
17:23:29 <planetmaker> Hiddenfunstuff, automatically updating to the server you want to join seems a reasonable request to me
17:23:44 <Eddi|zuHause> laziness drives a large portion of invention and engineering
17:24:13 <Hiddenfunstuff> Yep.. sadly to wrong direction sometimes
17:24:20 * Hiddenfunstuff looks at automatic transmission
17:25:07 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm terrible at driving automatic. i always want to step on the clutch...
17:25:39 <Hiddenfunstuff> It might be good on small cars.. heavy vehicles? Absolutely no..
17:25:39 <planetmaker> automatic transmissions certainly aren't either
17:26:00 <Hiddenfunstuff> Once i nearly killed somebody on the road because of the gearbox downshifting and making the wheels lose all traction
17:26:39 <Eddi|zuHause> there are certainly some terrible solutions to automatic transmission out there
17:27:44 <planetmaker> technology can fail. However most road accidents are due to human error. So... doesn't sound like technology is the one to be put to question there
17:28:05 <planetmaker> we will get the fully automatic car. Not this decade. Maybe not next. But probably during our lifetime
17:28:26 <Hiddenfunstuff> That as well but untill the machines can see properly whats infront of itself.. not just lazors but the road condition.. I will never let the car decide what it does
17:29:01 <Hiddenfunstuff> for sake of all drivers, i hope those self driving trucks never make it to public
17:29:07 <Alberth> You should read more Asimov :)
17:29:22 <planetmaker> I read it all, Alberth :)
17:29:28 <planetmaker> well. Most of him
17:30:24 <planetmaker> Hiddenfunstuff, *you* may choose not to have your car decide for you. *I* will be happy to have that option when I'm tired and just want a nap on the way back from a weekend trip
17:30:42 <planetmaker> and image recognition isn't that bad already
17:31:09 <Hiddenfunstuff> I avoid new cars anyways.. they're full of electronics that will fail in few cycles of winter here
17:33:43 <Hiddenfunstuff> road salt sludge water mixture does intresting things to your car and all exposed wiring..
17:33:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Hiddenfunstuff: i'm sure many said that 100 years ago when the first cars came out. or 150 years ago about trains. or about steam ships, or...
17:34:23 <Hiddenfunstuff> indeed.. the first thing people said when first trains came out that was it? 24kph speed is way too dangerous for humans..
17:35:56 <Hiddenfunstuff> But from my point of view where i spend more time on the road than at home in my life, I rather have control over the vehicle myself and not some computer. Because computers do fail.. its just when. and how many dies when it happens
17:36:37 <Flygon> Hiddenfunstuff is the sort of guy that'd thrive in the world of Mad Max
17:37:02 <Flygon> I'd like a Telsa... but
17:37:13 <Flygon> Holy fuck that touch screen alone is fucking horrifying
17:37:28 <Flygon> Why can't I have a car with the dashboard and centre console of my '94 Magna?
17:37:34 <Flygon> Is that too much to ask for?...
17:37:38 <Flygon> Just... turn the keys on
17:37:38 <Hiddenfunstuff> considering how i know my way around the machines and that I can hold a hammer and blow torch.. Yeah i probably do fine..
17:37:42 <Flygon> Tune to the radio station
17:37:52 <Flygon> Drive to whereever the fuck I want to go
17:38:05 <Flygon> I shouldn't have to pull over, stare at a touch screen, just to tune a fucking radio
17:38:31 <Flygon> Then again, I'm the guy that's fucking pissed his current car doesn't have a tape player
17:38:44 <Hiddenfunstuff> Yeah.. tesla is crossing the point of.. too fancy, too overengineerd for simple task
17:38:53 <Hiddenfunstuff> I have a tape player but no aux in!
17:38:57 <Flygon> It's annoying... the Tesla would otherwise be perfect
17:39:02 <Flygon> Tape players ARE aux in
17:39:17 <Flygon> Just get a headphone jack>cassette adaptor
17:39:17 <Hiddenfunstuff> I mean the 3.5mm jack
17:39:30 <Hiddenfunstuff> How does that even work?
17:39:30 <Flygon> Yes, tape players can accept raw 3.5mm input with a physical adaptor
17:39:50 <Hiddenfunstuff> does it record it onto the tape on the fly and then the deck reads it?
17:39:51 <Flygon> The tape's prongs directly connect with the tape player's heads
17:40:04 <Flygon> And dummy tools trick the radio into thinking the tape is playing
17:40:08 <Flygon> Zero conversion happens
17:40:11 <Flygon> It's just a raw physical adaptor
17:40:25 <Flygon> Raw analogue audio and tape audio are electronically compatible
17:40:47 <Hiddenfunstuff> Damnit! I can listen to modern music while i'm driving!
17:41:01 <Flygon> :D FLYGON SAVES THE DAY
17:41:02 <Hiddenfunstuff> not some "best of 1989" tapes
17:41:09 <frosch123> [17:28] <planetmaker> we will get the fully automatic car. Not this decade. Maybe not next. But probably during our lifetime <- the funny thing is that we probably get no automatic cargo trains :p
17:41:10 <Flygon> I wish my car had a tape player
17:41:11 <Hiddenfunstuff> or ancient mixtapes
17:41:15 <Flygon> I wanna play my 80s and 90s mixtapes
17:41:23 <Rubidium> Hiddenfunstuff: then what do you say about Google's self driving cars? All accidents were either when the vehicle was driven manually, or when the self driving vehicle was hit by another car
17:41:25 <planetmaker> hm... no, frosch123 ?
17:41:27 <Flygon> frosch123: That's very true
17:41:43 <Flygon> planetmaker: They won't exist in Australia. Too stronger rail lobby.
17:41:52 <frosch123> planetmaker: automatic only makes sense for small vehicles
17:42:00 <frosch123> for big ones, it is not worth the effort
17:42:00 <Hiddenfunstuff> Rubidium.. Would you let a machine control a truck with total mass of 76 tons (metric)
17:42:21 <Hiddenfunstuff> you are insane
17:42:23 <Flygon> I also forgot Australia DOES already have semi-automatic freight trains
17:42:37 <Flygon> And semi/fully-automatic trucks
17:42:46 <Flygon> But they're only used in the mining industry
17:42:54 <Flygon> And are isolated from the public roads/rail system
17:42:55 <Hiddenfunstuff> yeah far from civil traffic
17:43:12 <Rubidium> Hiddenfunstuff: really? Do machines get tired? Do machines want to go home? Do machines get heart attacks?
17:43:20 <Hiddenfunstuff> No, but machines get broken
17:43:22 <Flygon> But, yeah. A huge fuss about ATO is being made here in Melbourne...
17:43:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Hiddenfunstuff: so, would you let a HUMAN control a truck with total mass of 76 tons (metric)?
17:43:29 <Flygon> I'm not sure it'll ever eventuate
17:43:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Hiddenfunstuff: humans make errors
17:43:42 <Hiddenfunstuff> I am driving a 76 ton combination, and last time i checked, i'm human
17:43:44 <Flygon> The Metro lines share tracks with freight trains, V/Line trains, maintainence trains...
17:43:58 <Flygon> Hiddenfunstuff: Is it a War Rig?
17:43:59 <Hiddenfunstuff> when i was driving an 68 ton automatic truck.. that thing nearly killed somebody
17:44:02 <Eddi|zuHause> Hiddenfunstuff: and statistically, humans probably make more errors than machines.
17:44:08 <Hiddenfunstuff> no, just a standard delivery truck
17:44:12 <frosch123> Hiddenfunstuff: Eddi|zuHause: why do you care whether you are run over by a 1 ton or 76 ton vehicle?
17:44:27 <Flygon> frosch123: Conservation of momentum
17:44:35 <Hiddenfunstuff> just saying that 76 ton vehicle takes a shitloads of longer distance to stop..
17:44:38 <Flygon> I'd take the 1 tonne vehicle
17:44:49 <Hiddenfunstuff> and 1.5 ton renault doesnt stop the truck's speed much
17:44:57 <Hiddenfunstuff> Yes, it does do damage but it doesnt stop it
17:45:04 <Flygon> The only way you're gonna stop a 76 tonne vehicle quickly
17:45:18 <Hiddenfunstuff> is to drive it to a ditch or off the road
17:45:23 <Flygon> Is if it's a train/tram, and you apply those electromagnetic anchors to the tracks
17:45:23 <frosch123> Flygon: do you want to hide behind the street light or something?
17:45:32 <Flygon> If you're going fast enough
17:45:41 <Flygon> You'll probably wreck the train/tram and kill all the occoupants
17:45:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i've seen tanks stop nearly instantly
17:45:56 <Flygon> Tanks use treads, not wheels
17:46:02 <Hiddenfunstuff> and tanks do not weight 70 tons
17:46:11 <Hiddenfunstuff> or well.. some do but generally they are lighter
17:46:11 <Flygon> Of course it'll stop. It has near perfect adhesion to the road
17:46:14 <Hiddenfunstuff> around 30-40 tons
17:46:24 <planetmaker> there's a good reason that things like lane assist, distant assist, emergency breaks are *first* introduced in big trucks: human error is the far biggest cause of accidents involving trucks
17:46:25 <Eddi|zuHause> how does that make a difference?
17:46:40 <Flygon> The more adhesion, the more something stops moving more easily
17:46:50 <Flygon> That's why it's called adhesion
17:46:58 <Hiddenfunstuff> tank treads have more surface contact i belive..
17:46:59 <frosch123> Hiddenfunstuff: the first tank i look up, weights 62 tons, at 72 km/h
17:47:39 <Flygon> (iirc, the electromagnetic brakes on Trams here aren't allowed to be deployed when going over 35km/h here, due to the fact that going any faster, the stop would be so sudden that... well, you'd kill the passengers)
17:47:56 <Flygon> (safer to just smash the car in front, or mince the pedestrian if necessary >_<)
17:48:30 <Hiddenfunstuff> electrocmagnetics are sticks quite hard..
17:48:35 <Flygon> (of course, it's incredibly unlikely that a pedestrian will be in front of a Tram going 70km/h that can't brake fast enough to THEN apply the electromagnetic brakes)
17:48:39 <planetmaker> hehe... that reminds me. Once the tram driver announced that passengers should please hold on tight because the primary breaks were broken. First passengers laughed... until the thing needed to start braking
17:48:50 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: when the ICE was tested for dutch railways, their speed was reduced because invoking magnetic brakes at that speed would have dragged all sorts of track equipment with it
17:48:54 <Flygon> (I mean, you'll have enough stopping distance to slow down then brake...)
17:49:07 <Flygon> Eddi: Hahaha, fuck, wow O_o
17:49:24 <Hiddenfunstuff> Electroc magnetic retarder is used in coaches and buses..
17:49:56 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i'd ask all passengers to leave the tram and return to depot in that case.
17:50:01 <Hiddenfunstuff> it basically resists the spinning of driveshaft which will slow down the vehicle
17:50:11 <Flygon> Eddi: While that is the safest thing to do
17:50:17 <Flygon> It isn't exactly the most possible thing to do
17:50:21 <Hiddenfunstuff> But ofc it cant be too powerful otherwise you'll end up locking up the driveshaft/twisting it in a screw/locking up the wheels
17:50:51 <Flygon> Keep in mind, Melbourne's Yarra Trams has had such things as Z1's literally getting rained on inside through the cab getting approved for normal service
17:50:56 <Flygon> And other such incredibly serious faults
17:51:01 <Flygon> Because it was still considered drivable
17:51:15 <Flygon> And I'm not getting into how utterly fucked a lot of BUSES are here...
17:51:32 <Flygon> The entire principle of public transit here is "Drive it til it's dead"
17:51:50 <Flygon> The rust was so bad, it leaked inside the cab of the Tram
17:51:51 <Hiddenfunstuff> Oooh rust is everywhere
17:52:00 <Flygon> When it rained, that is
17:52:13 <Flygon> The Z's being nigh invulnerable's becoming a bit of an issue
17:52:18 <Flygon> Thank fuck they're being retired soon
17:52:25 <Flygon> They're the coolest looking Trams on the network
17:52:30 <Flygon> And they've served us fucking well
17:52:37 <Flygon> They're around 40 years old by this point
17:52:40 <Hiddenfunstuff> They dont use roadsalt in there do they
17:52:49 <Hiddenfunstuff> oh wait.. melbourge.. no snow
17:53:01 <Hiddenfunstuff> roadsalt when mixed into snow/water.. thats like acid
17:53:04 <Flygon> That's only for out in Melbourne's outer North-East and the alps
17:53:08 <Hiddenfunstuff> Eats through anything
17:53:18 <Flygon> The Trams were getting eaten through out of sheer AGE
17:53:29 <Flygon> And lack of maintainence thanks to cost cutting
17:53:36 <Flygon> Yarra Trams really wanted to get rid of the Z's
17:53:50 <Flygon> And letting them rot unceromoniously was the only possible way to do so
17:54:04 <Flygon> As sad as it is (esp. since they're so awesome), it's probably for the best
17:55:29 <Hiddenfunstuff> did they just paint over the rust?
17:55:54 <Flygon> You can't paint over a gaping hole
17:55:59 <Hiddenfunstuff> oh yes you can
17:56:03 <Hiddenfunstuff> just slap some scrap metal over it
17:56:12 <Hiddenfunstuff> ofc without grinding the rust under it first
17:56:16 <Flygon> The Z1s (the oldest, unsurprisingly) that did get those gaping holes did get retired
17:56:22 <Hiddenfunstuff> so the rust will eat the new piece of scrap metal withn months
17:56:24 <Flygon> When the fact that they had giant holes in them became obvious
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17:56:37 <Flygon> Yarra Trams were looking for an excuse to forcibly retire them
17:56:43 <Flygon> They don't want to fix them up cheap
17:57:41 <Flygon> The Z3 Trams (there's three revisions. And Z3 and Z2 Trams are parts compatible with the B and A-Class Trams, meaning they'll last far longer. Tho, most Z2 are retired by now too) will last at least another decade and a half
17:58:51 <Alberth> yep, nicely colourful :)
17:59:11 <Eddi|zuHause> how is that a reason for keeping them?
17:59:49 <Eddi|zuHause> probably some sort of celebration
18:00:12 <Eddi|zuHause> when they opened a new tram line over here, they put all sorts of old equipment on it on the first day
18:00:43 <Eddi|zuHause> of course those were properly maintained museum vehicles
18:00:51 <Flygon> This image will explain everything
18:01:08 <Eddi|zuHause> ah. that's something different then ;)
18:01:14 <Flygon> Eddi: They're kept because Yarra Trams are forced to. They gotta run EVERYTHING possible to keep up with demand
18:01:24 <Flygon> Huge shitstorm in 1990 over Conductors
18:01:34 <Flygon> Sadly, the last did get retired by 1999 :(
18:01:42 <Eddi|zuHause> tram conductors were long gone over here by that time
18:03:39 <Flygon> Everyone here wants them back
18:03:43 <Hiddenfunstuff> I should get back to work.. my break is over
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18:04:01 <Flygon> Hope I haven't bothered you guys with my Aussiefoaming x3
18:04:07 <Flygon> I know Australia aint interesting :3
18:04:14 <Eddi|zuHause> they were trying to get rid of train conductors here, but they reversed that decision
18:04:14 <Flygon> You're all European :P
18:04:34 <Hiddenfunstuff> sometimes a nice change to talk to people..
18:04:36 <Eddi|zuHause> in local trains that is
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21:28:55 <argoneus> are there any major features planned in the near future?
21:30:02 <frosch123> it's the same as every year
21:31:46 <Eddi|zuHause> same procedure as last year, miss sophie?
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21:36:41 <andythenorth> increased industry IDs
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22:05:14 <andythenorth_> industry sound effects
22:06:29 * Eddi|zuHause has horrible memories of PBI reusing the train crash sound for quarries
22:07:16 <Eddi|zuHause> very traumatizing
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22:08:31 * andythenorth considers sounds for meat packer
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22:14:31 <Eddi|zuHause> you want sounds that blend in with the environment and don't stand out very much
22:14:43 <andythenorth> like the default sawmill
22:14:48 <Eddi|zuHause> also, you changed colour.
22:14:58 <andythenorth> ideally all the sounds would be as nice as the default sawmill
22:15:01 <Eddi|zuHause> it's driving me mad.
22:15:08 <andythenorth> I have a colour?
22:15:35 <Eddi|zuHause> my client assings a colour to everyone
22:16:31 <Eddi|zuHause> but you joined with an alternate nick, which gets a different colour than your usual nick
22:16:41 <Eddi|zuHause> and then that colour sticks with you through renames
22:16:50 <Eddi|zuHause> until either you or me /hop
22:17:23 <andythenorth> there’s a lot of hopping today
22:17:31 <andythenorth> somewhat involuntary
22:17:51 <andythenorth> other people have strange irc
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