IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-05-29
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05:47:28 <supermop> i wish you could timetable depot stays
05:47:57 <supermop> i lose most of my game years to releasing timetabled vehicles
05:48:47 <supermop> if i could have a depot as first or second order could start them all at once and they'd figure it out on their own
05:49:37 <supermop> in stead of hovering over the depot watching the first station and starting each one in correct order to line up with it's slot in existing traffic
05:49:44 <supermop> one per month or whatever
05:53:51 <supermop> would be really helpful for trams, which can't lay-up in a terminus
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11:34:24 <argoneus_> good morning train friends
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11:52:09 <Eddi|zuHause> what if i'm a train hater and only here for my masochistic tendencies?
11:59:24 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, and: "check your privileges" :p
12:01:25 <supermop> i think it is usually singular in that case eddi
12:02:18 <supermop> as a member of a privileged class is assumed to have some amount of 'privilege' in the way he might have some amount of beer
12:03:04 <supermop> we would use privileges, as with beers, when we want to get into the specifics of which types he has
12:12:15 <Eddi|zuHause> that's not how i would use the word in german...
12:13:16 <Eddi|zuHause> also, i don't see how you could have more of one type of privilege, instead of more different types of privileges
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12:15:09 <Eddi|zuHause> do you measure the privilege of having access to clean drinking water by how far you have to walk to get it?
12:15:22 <Eddi|zuHause> that does not make any sense at all.
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12:34:01 <supermop> i think the privilege of having an employment oprotunity nearby vs serveral nearby are essentially the same privilege but differentiated by degree
12:34:38 <argoneus_> Eddi|zuHause: are you masochistic?
12:35:13 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus_: how is that relevant?
12:35:26 <argoneus_> Eddi|zuHause: you talked about it 30 mins ago
12:35:32 <argoneus_> seems pretty relevant to me
12:35:53 <argoneus_> are you.... avoiding the question?
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12:35:59 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus_: do you need a lesson on what the word "if" means?
12:36:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm afraid i'm not quite qualified to give such lessons
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12:58:58 <solatis> ok, i give up. setting up self-regulating networks is too messed up to get right.
13:01:52 <solatis> or at least, it's too difficult to make it efficient combined with ECS. too many barely loaded trains running around.
13:14:13 <supermop> i find its easiest to just timetable things
13:14:22 <supermop> maybe not the best for ecs
13:15:20 <supermop> but figure out a monthly tonnage that is slightly more capacity than you need, and try to have a train of that size stopping by once per 30 days
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13:16:58 <Eddi|zuHause> might work better if you choose a multiple of 256 ticks
13:17:29 <Eddi|zuHause> as that is the production cycle of the industry
13:29:26 <solatis> i never really tried the timetable thing
13:29:57 <supermop> for a mine or other primary industry i will typically have a two track terminus, and schedule the train to waait there for the number of days between trains in the schedule (usually 30) +1 or 2
13:30:28 <supermop> so the loading train leave once the following train has stopped in the station and cleared the junction
13:30:48 <solatis> that is pretty good actually
13:31:21 <solatis> so you always have one train loading, but also have a continuous flow of primary cargo coming in
13:31:56 <supermop> 'full load' is too unpredictable
13:32:27 <supermop> better to have a regular flow of cargo even if your trains are sometimes 80-90% full
13:33:40 <supermop> you can also then generally know when a train will be on a certain stretch of track, so you can align other trains to share the line without them delaying each other
13:34:23 <supermop> the problem is timetabling multiple lines together is very very tedious
13:34:41 <Geth> how does the timetables even work?
13:35:18 <supermop> but there are advantages for infrastructure
13:36:15 *** Geth is now known as Hiddenfunstuff
13:36:21 <supermop> in my current game i have several city stations that see 25+ trains from 5+ different lines with only two tracks, and flat junctions
13:36:42 <supermop> with one train in each direction every 10 days
13:37:10 <supermop> that's about the limit unless your train grf has very fast loading speeds
13:40:55 <supermop> you can also use the timetable to limit speeds
13:41:21 <Hiddenfunstuff> so in what case timetables are useful?
13:41:23 <supermop> so if you have some freight trains that go 120kmh and passenger trains that go 160
13:42:12 <supermop> you can have the passenger trains run at 120 on the shared bits of track so they run smoothly together
13:42:47 <supermop> Hiddenfunstuff: anywhere where you want reguar performance from a network
13:43:15 <supermop> and don't want lots of unnecessary infrastructure
13:43:16 <Hiddenfunstuff> So that might solve problems in my mainline where empty and loaded trains run together.. empty one is faster and constantly stuck between a slower loaded one
13:44:00 <Hiddenfunstuff> Except those will be pain to keep up to date as train speeds go up
13:44:30 <Hiddenfunstuff> Right now starting off a new game so and making sure to future proof my mainlines..
13:45:35 <supermop> 'future proof' is easiest if you built extra capacity then never build faster trains later
13:46:24 <supermop> in the game i'm playing now, a sugar beet train run on a line with passenger trains,
13:46:56 <supermop> and the various branches on the line are syncronized in multiples of 90 days
13:47:27 <supermop> this lets me easily have one sugar train ever 90 days, which is great for now,
13:48:00 <supermop> as it carries 300 tons, and serves a firs arable farm producing 98 tons per month
13:48:03 <argoneus> I never found timetabling useful for trains
13:48:09 <argoneus> full load kinda spreads them out just fine
13:48:16 <argoneus> it's useful for buses and other things that don't full load though
13:48:31 <Hiddenfunstuff> Yeah.. if you have to wait at the station for full load..
13:48:42 <supermop> if i ever boost the production of the farm, i can't easily increase the sugar train capacity
13:48:52 <Hiddenfunstuff> I usually time the trains so that once theres a train load of stuff in the station, i put out a next train on
13:48:56 <supermop> argoneus: i never use full load for freight
13:49:09 <argoneus> I always use it and make sure there's always atleast 1 train loading something
13:49:10 <supermop> unless it's an isolated branch line
13:49:21 <supermop> i do that with timetables
13:49:22 <argoneus> then again I make 7 length trains
13:50:04 <supermop> as soon as i have more than two trains at a mine, i switch to timetables
13:50:23 <Hiddenfunstuff> I use 16 lenght trains
13:50:43 <Hiddenfunstuff> those usually can fit about 1000 tons or 1,000,000 litres of stuff
13:51:00 <argoneus> the problem with timetables is
13:51:04 <argoneus> that they are annoying to set up
13:51:10 <argoneus> and if you add another train to the fray it's even more gay
13:51:14 <argoneus> at least from my experience
13:51:32 <argoneus> because you need to re-time everything, no?
13:51:40 <supermop> now im deciding whether to give an extra slot on the line to a second sugar train, or try to double it's length
13:51:55 <Hiddenfunstuff> there should be somekind separate window where you make the time tables, then like tick all the trains you want to apply the timetable to
13:54:04 <Hiddenfunstuff> also how is the most efficient way of handling transfer from railway to maglev? Thats always the big pain in the ass to remake all the orders etc
13:54:10 <Hiddenfunstuff> in big networks even more
13:55:54 <supermop> same way JR is doing it in real life
13:56:05 <supermop> build a separate new network
13:56:23 <Hiddenfunstuff> So its not even worth to switch over to maglev
13:56:30 <supermop> most line probably don't need to be maglev
13:56:41 <Hiddenfunstuff> but the speeeeed!
13:56:55 <solatis> typical "how do i do x? -> you don't want to do that"
13:57:09 <Hiddenfunstuff> Screw that, I'll stick to steam trains in 8115
13:57:17 <solatis> i myself use openttdcoop's unrealistic train set newgrf
13:57:17 <supermop> like the marginal increase in payment to sent coal by high speed probably isn't worth the cost of the tracks
13:57:24 <solatis> it features a 'clean' maglev line
13:57:36 <solatis> as in, one that is actually easy on the eyes
13:57:50 <supermop> passengers are good for maglev though
13:58:07 <Hiddenfunstuff> your passengers tend to get pissed if they sit in the train for couple years
13:58:15 <supermop> if your coal maglevs can share trackage with other trains then fine do it
13:58:31 <solatis> i myself like to build huge networks and always cheat the money.. for me it's not about generating money, it's about solving the scalability problems
13:58:34 <supermop> but if its a line just for coal why bother
13:58:39 <solatis> so maglev is a requirement :)
13:58:49 <Hiddenfunstuff> solatis thats what i been starting to do these days..
13:58:55 <supermop> for scale build canals
13:58:58 <Hiddenfunstuff> Just try to build more and more complex tracks
13:59:00 <solatis> Hiddenfunstuff: join us @ openttdcoop :)
13:59:05 <Hiddenfunstuff> I am sitting there already
13:59:09 <supermop> canals carry infinite cargo
13:59:31 <Hiddenfunstuff> never used canals,
13:59:35 <solatis> as in, it isn't really scaling
13:59:47 <solatis> it's just replacing trains with something that has no scalability limits
13:59:59 <solatis> instead of architecting your lines to scale
14:00:25 <solatis> to each his own, i guess, but the entire reason i play openttd is to solve those scalability problems
14:00:39 <Hiddenfunstuff> the coop guys are just insane..
14:01:05 <solatis> when i start a new game, i don't let any industries be generated
14:01:13 <solatis> i make huge stations, plan the lines out
14:01:19 <solatis> and only after that do i fund the industries
14:01:27 <Hiddenfunstuff> yeah because the random industries kinda spawn in so wierd places
14:01:52 <solatis> yeah, and when you're using ECS or FIRS you want to have the right industries in strategic locations
14:02:07 <solatis> so you can make your 32-track stations in the right places :)
14:02:30 <Hiddenfunstuff> and you can run the trains from north to south with the industry chain
14:02:49 <solatis> i don't do that myself, but yeah, you could
14:03:06 <Hiddenfunstuff> Well i dont even bother with short lines anymore
14:03:19 <Hiddenfunstuff> they are all half of the map distance atleast
14:03:37 <solatis> short lines aren't fun
14:08:36 <supermop> i don't know, i find timetabling a network so that trains are rarely if ever delayed is more satisfying
14:08:47 <supermop> and requires more planning
14:09:21 <supermop> and playing around with ideas of network topology
14:10:03 <supermop> like, how to avoid needing lots of terminal platforms in a city where you have local trains, plus long distance high speed services
14:10:31 <supermop> each game i play around with a different idea to solve that
14:10:40 <Hiddenfunstuff> well that gives some change
14:11:27 <supermop> in this game, the long distance high speed then continues past the city as a local train for 1-2 more stops, so i can lay up at a less busy suburban station
14:11:57 <supermop> and saves me a separate local train for that branch
14:12:44 <supermop> plus passengers in the small town don't need to transfer at the main station to continue further afield
14:13:10 <Hiddenfunstuff> Lol we dont give much a damn about the cities.. sometimes even plowing an lll,rrr mainline through a city
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14:46:04 <supermop> i have run into an odd bit where i now need to run manufacturing supplies in high speed mail cars at 201kmh because the train share an approach to the city with a intercity line
14:47:35 <solatis> is there an easy way to sell ALL my trains?
14:47:40 <solatis> they're all stopped in depots
14:47:47 <solatis> but those are like 50 different depots
14:49:33 <solatis> guess i'll just have to do it manually depot by depot
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18:56:04 <Alberth> ugh, squirrels array are complicated :(
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19:15:54 <Alberth> hmmp, someone made a Test class, which wins from my definition :(
19:54:32 * andythenorth wonders about tile height check
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20:06:12 <Eddi|zuHause> # ein bett im kornfeld
20:11:14 <Alberth> sure you want to sleep there?
20:12:07 <frosch123> somietimes eddi has just a terrible taste
20:12:30 <Eddi|zuHause> you said "heu". so i had to :p
20:13:54 <frosch123> doesn't matter, you already look terrible by remembering such line
20:14:57 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you just don't know 90s remakes of 70s songs :p
20:17:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i bet you don't know "Sexy Eis" either
20:18:04 <frosch123> i do, but only passive
20:18:10 <frosch123> i wouldn't come up with that myself
20:18:25 <frosch123> it's the active knowledge that makes you look bad :p
20:18:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i probably haven't heard either of those songs in over 10 years
20:18:57 <frosch123> anyway, sexy eis is fanta4, right?
20:19:29 <Eddi|zuHause> it's either Stefan Raab or Bürger Lars Dietrich. probably both.
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20:27:20 <andythenorth> so how do I offset to the N tile, to check the N tile height? (using nearby_tile_height)
20:27:51 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: use the PARENT to check for industry location?
20:28:17 <andythenorth> I was considering -1 * relative_x
20:28:25 <andythenorth> and -1 * relative_y
20:29:03 <Eddi|zuHause> that probably works as well
20:29:41 <andythenorth> there must be an elegant way to find the height of the highest corner
20:29:57 <andythenorth> nearby_tile_height gets lowest corner
20:30:53 <Eddi|zuHause> nearby_tile_height+slope==SLOPE_FLAT?0:(slope is steep)?2:1
20:31:18 <Eddi|zuHause> you might want to exclude steep slopes in most cases
20:31:59 * andythenorth wonders whether auto-foundations would work on steep slopes
20:32:56 <frosch123> kind of ugly ofc :p
20:33:08 <andythenorth> I’ll allow steep slopes initially
20:33:25 <andythenorth> there’s already a separate atomic check to forbid steep slopes
20:33:36 <andythenorth> can add that if the foundations look awful
20:33:42 <Eddi|zuHause> (slope&IS_STEEP_SLOPE!=0)
20:34:06 <Eddi|zuHause> or ==0 and flip 1:2
20:34:56 <Eddi|zuHause> also slope>=IS_STEEP_SLOPE probably works
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20:58:59 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 838000/16000000000
20:58:59 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 5.2375e-05
20:59:17 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 838000/16000000000*100
20:59:17 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 0.0052375
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21:06:23 <andythenorth> won’t remember what that does in 3 months though :P
21:06:38 <Eddi|zuHause> you can probably write -relative_x
21:06:48 <Eddi|zuHause> instead of -1*blah
21:07:15 <frosch123> also note that it's eddi's fault
21:08:10 <Eddi|zuHause> he already has an uncanny ability of throwing random lines at me and say "you wrote this for me X years ago"
21:08:32 <andythenorth> I think I’d have to blame this one on me
21:09:03 <Eddi|zuHause> and i of course have no memory of that. ever.
21:09:35 <andythenorth> programmers who are good at thinking algorithmically seem to have poor memories
21:09:35 <frosch123> good point. andy: also add a timestamp and irc log link
21:09:41 <andythenorth> in my limited sample :P
21:10:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i have pretty good memory, but it's very selective
21:10:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i only remember things that don't matter at all.
21:10:22 <andythenorth> so I know some people who can recall specs
21:10:28 <frosch123> like stupid song texts
21:10:31 <andythenorth> but not what they did 1 hour ago
21:11:00 <Eddi|zuHause> who cares. it was probably watching a youtube video.
21:13:30 <andythenorth> what to call this check
21:13:43 <andythenorth> require_highest_point_of_every_tile_to_be_same ?
21:13:48 <Eddi|zuHause> magic thing about not quite flat area
21:13:49 <andythenorth> seems a bit long-winded :P
21:13:58 <andythenorth> require_mostly_flat :P
21:14:16 <frosch123> call it "eddi_20150529_2030CETS"
21:14:26 <Eddi|zuHause> is_flat_with_foundations
21:15:46 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: freudian slip :p
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21:31:48 <Eddi|zuHause> that looks very mad-max-y
21:36:02 <Wolf01> lets make a mad max grf
21:36:22 <Eddi|zuHause> "Fullerenes enriched with Rubidium produced a room-temperature superconductor"
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22:10:59 <andythenorth> eh, this new check seems better
22:13:23 <Alberth> code improves if you write it several times :)
22:13:42 <Eddi|zuHause> only if you're a good programmer :p
22:16:13 <andythenorth> for bad programmers it’s a random walk
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22:25:50 <andythenorth> quarry and clay pit disable all tile location checks
22:25:55 <andythenorth> to permit terraforming
22:26:05 <andythenorth> this has unwanted side effects
22:31:29 <Alberth> haha, claypit on foundations :p
22:34:58 <andythenorth> there’s a special tile flag that prevents that
22:38:26 <andythenorth> shame the tile location check cb can’t return a bitmask for terraforming tile corners
22:38:35 <andythenorth> instead of simply allow / disallow
22:40:17 <andythenorth> actually, probably too many complex cases :P
22:40:22 <andythenorth> is the tile water?
22:40:30 <andythenorth> and is it water after terraforming?
22:42:22 <Eddi|zuHause> no tile is ever water after terraforming
22:45:12 <frosch123> objects add many anomalies wrt. that
22:45:50 <frosch123> they could be on water, be completely auto-slopeable, and auto-removable when building something else on them
22:52:28 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: and after terraforming + n ticks? :P
22:53:01 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that is not a check you can do
22:53:22 <andythenorth> oh grue and bleen predicates again :P
22:54:19 <andythenorth> anyway, maybe OpenTTD is trying to tell me that the quarry and clay pit are flawed
22:54:26 <andythenorth> hard to build = bad feature
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