IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-05-11
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01:32:40 *** TartarusMkII has joined #openttd
01:33:25 <TartarusMkII> Hello everyone, I wanted to ask, last night someone said HEQS's forklifts were a vestige of how FIRS used to work- I was wondering if anyone would tell me more about it out of curiosity, and if a forklift (carries 3 units of goods in capacity) is still useful at all? I think theyre cute
01:47:27 <TartarusMkII> is this still current, then?
01:47:30 <TartarusMkII> Or is this somehow out dated?
01:48:11 <Supercheese> supply mechanics were completely overhauled a while back
01:48:28 <Supercheese> forklifts are now fairly useless
01:48:50 <Supercheese> relegated to eyecandy
01:49:18 <TartarusMkII> I appreciate it!
01:53:22 <kamnet> Somebodyshould write a whole new update
01:53:54 <TartarusMkII> hmm, I am reading the actual FIRS documents, and I see lots of singular descriptions of stuff, but not explanations of mechanics, or tips or anything.
01:55:16 <kamnet> Andy outsourced the documentation to YETI dudes.
01:56:14 <Eddi|zuHause> but they spent all their time riding flatcars, and didn't bother working?
02:06:06 <FLHerne> TartarusMkII: New FIRS mechanics are nice and simple in themselves
02:07:36 <FLHerne> TartarusMkII: You deliver some supplies, you get 2x production. Lots of supplies, 4x production.
02:08:31 <FLHerne> For secondaries, you get a unit per [n] units of [type] delivered, plus a bonus for multiple types
02:09:08 <FLHerne> Old-style FIRS measured supplies per month (rather than per three months as now), and didn't care how many supplies you delivered
02:09:51 <FLHerne> So the 'optimal' supply method was lots of tiny vehicles, to ensure there was always a delivery each month
02:10:39 <FLHerne> That's still true in a smaller way for the multiple-cargos boost on secondary industries, but not so much
02:11:17 <FLHerne> Tips - Note existence of the industry-chain buttons ingame if you haven't already
02:11:32 <TartarusMkII> oh okay awesome, yea
02:11:38 <TartarusMkII> then I already know what I need to know.
02:11:56 <FLHerne> Form primary -> secondary -> supplies -> primary loops, so you get plenty of cargo
02:11:56 <TartarusMkII> All I am really missing is ideas or examples of optimal early or mid game set ups
02:12:37 <FLHerne> Don't bother with goods or any other 'delivered' cargo that doesn't ultimately end up in supplies until you have supply loops running
02:12:57 <Eddi|zuHause> optimal early [if you ignore passengers]: any primary to any secondary. optimal mid-game: set up some supplies->primary feedback loops
02:14:20 <TartarusMkII> often, it seems, on 512 x 512 maps, I can't find all the things to a chain. I usually try to work with the metal foundries
02:14:57 <FLHerne> FIRS has lots and lots and lots of chains, most of which duplicate each other to some extent :P
02:14:59 <TartarusMkII> or, I spend way too much money on gettign the materials to the mill. Thats why I am tryign to avoid rail for a bit, and learn to use shorter range means to group up more thigns so only one train can take the ass load of it all
02:15:10 <Eddi|zuHause> the game tries to put at least one of each industry
02:15:23 <Eddi|zuHause> [that is available at this time]
02:15:30 <FLHerne> TartarusMkII: For that bit, station-refit helps if your train/ship sets support it :-)
02:15:36 <Eddi|zuHause> some industries only show up after a certain date
02:15:43 <TartarusMkII> how so, FLHerne?
02:16:31 <FLHerne> Say you're serving a steel mill, you can truck coal/iron/scrap into your railhead/dock
02:17:10 <FLHerne> Most sets consider those as the same category, so a train/ship with 'refit to any' will pick up all of them
02:17:37 <FLHerne> Saves having to have different vehicle pools per cargo
02:18:36 <TartarusMkII> hmm that is interesting. I've never seen refit to any though. Like, I've always had to manually refit a train to pick up coal, or iron, or scrap?
02:22:46 <TartarusMkII> huh, how u do dis =o!
02:22:47 <FLHerne> In the orders, there's a "station refit" button for vehicles that support it (most recent sets, not the default vehicles)
02:23:13 <TartarusMkII> so you'd order them to, say, drop off cargo at the mill, then refit to 'any', then go pick stuff up at its rounds? or whut
02:23:32 <FLHerne> TartarusMkII: It's on the options for a station
02:24:11 <TartarusMkII> sec, I'll start up the game and check it out
02:24:19 <FLHerne> So "goto loading point, wait for any full load with refit to available cargo" "goto factory, unload all, no loading"
02:25:16 <FLHerne> If you enable cargodist for freight you can do even more fun things, but most people consider that to be utterly insane :P
02:25:27 <TartarusMkII> and it'll automatically refit to carry as much as it can, or like, an equal distribution?
02:25:34 <FLHerne> Or at least fiddly and confusing
02:25:40 <TartarusMkII> yea I saw cargodist for passengers and I decided to keep it off.
02:25:45 <TartarusMkII> At least until Im better at the game
02:25:53 <TartarusMkII> I -do- enjoy complexity, though.
02:26:28 <FLHerne> If there's cargo waiting, and there's an empty vehicle that can refit to carry it, it'll refit to carry it
02:26:48 <FLHerne> RVs/ships can only carry one cargo at a time, trains can carry one cargo per wagon
02:26:55 <TartarusMkII> what if there is 200t of iron and 50t of coal at a station? Will it like, take all the iron and forget the coal if there's no more room?
02:27:01 <FLHerne> You should definitely turn it on for passengers
02:27:16 <TartarusMkII> Maybe I have wrong assumptions about it- can you tell me more about what cargo dist does?
02:27:30 <FLHerne> On the other hand, you;ll have trains coming back that were refitted to coal before
02:27:47 <FLHerne> So generally it works fairly well unless your system is totally overloaded
02:28:26 <FLHerne> It [has the effect of] giving each passenger (or cargo unit) a particular station it 'wants' to reach
02:28:53 <FLHerne> It'll only try to send passengers from a station to a station that they can reach via your existing services
02:29:26 <FLHerne> (brackets above because technically it doesn't, it does magic that makes it look like it does that :P)
02:29:53 <FLHerne> For passengers, this is enormously better than "get off at the next stop"
02:30:15 <FLHerne> Because it makes having an integrated network with buses etc actually useful
02:31:02 <TartarusMkII> hm can you give me an example with passengers? like, with busses?
02:31:19 <FLHerne> e.g. passengers from city-centre bus stops will, instead of just getting off at the next stop, decide they want to go to the beach on another continent by catching the airport bus, flying, then changing trains twice
02:35:04 <FLHerne> You can see the inner-city bus/tram/metro networks
02:35:42 <FLHerne> What passengers tend to do is catch a bus or two to the rail station, catch a train across the map, then a bus to somewhere else
02:36:29 <FLHerne> Of course, sometimes they really do just want to go to the next stop
02:37:13 <TartarusMkII> is that cargo flow vanilla? I've never noticed it
02:37:27 <FLHerne> Yes, see 'Cargo flow legend' under the map menu
02:37:34 <TartarusMkII> I'm sort of confused though
02:37:51 <TartarusMkII> How does this work IN PRACTICE? If I make two cities have their own bus service, will people who want to go to the city just build up?
02:37:58 <TartarusMkII> do I have to make special lines go everywhere, or?..
02:38:00 <FLHerne> The colours are a measure of route (over)loading
02:38:23 <FLHerne> Passengers only want to go to places they can get to by your network
02:38:56 <FLHerne> They'll prefer to take the shortest possible route, but if that's heavily overloaded they take others
02:39:02 <TartarusMkII> that's interesting
02:39:11 <TartarusMkII> so how does it work with cargo? I've never actually noticed a setting foir cargo
02:39:48 <FLHerne> It does mean that if you have two large cities near each other, it's a good idea to have a direct mainline between them so that they don't take a roundabout route and clog up everything
02:40:11 <FLHerne> (preferred destinations are weighted (optionally) by distance)
02:40:28 <FLHerne> Pretty much the same, cargo will 'want' to go to a particular industry
02:40:39 <FLHerne> Well, to a particular station, which is mostly the same thing
02:40:46 <TartarusMkII> So in practice, I'd really want busses that load/unload casually along a route of terminals?
02:40:50 <TartarusMkII> also, does this look right?
02:40:54 <TartarusMkII> I feel like soemthing is missing
02:41:17 <FLHerne> 'manual' effectively means 'off' ;-)
02:42:11 <FLHerne> Pax should be symmetric (try to have equal numbers of passengers going in both directions on each route)
02:42:33 <FLHerne> Cargo should never be symmetric, because sending equal amounts of coal back to the mine makes no sense
02:43:38 <FLHerne> TartarusMkII: Generally, the best networks for cargodist end up looking something like a mesh
02:44:06 <FLHerne> Or actually, mine tend to be small bus-network meshes attached to nodes on the big rail-network mesh
02:44:37 <FLHerne> The reason being that if you have a purely linear network, you have far more traffic in the middle than at the ends
02:45:11 <FLHerne> Because in a network A-B-C-D, the A-B link is only used by passengers from A to B/C/D
02:45:25 <FLHerne> Whereas B-C is used by A-C/D and also B-C/D
02:45:41 <FLHerne> You can make it work like that, but easier not to
02:46:11 <TartarusMkII> so technically a circle would be most 'efficient' of a web?
02:46:38 <TartarusMkII> if it were only 4 or 5 nodes, anyway
02:46:43 <FLHerne> For an individual route, maybe
02:47:03 <FLHerne> Although that means passengers from one side to the other have to go all round the edge
02:47:13 <TartarusMkII> what do you think I should set this other stuff to? like, recalculation, the accuracy, effect of distance on demands? hehe
02:47:26 <FLHerne> So if it's a big circle or busy, you might want cuts across the middle
02:47:46 <FLHerne> Mostly, the defaults are sane :-)
02:48:08 <FLHerne> Increasing the effect of distance will make it behave increasingly like 'normal'
02:48:41 <FLHerne> Making it very high will make almost all passengers want to go to the nearest station to their start point
02:48:46 <TartarusMkII> so 100% is good? Also, should I set it to symmetrical or asymmetrical? not sure what the difference is.
02:49:09 <TartarusMkII> oh okay I see what it does, but what would you suggest?
02:49:30 <FLHerne> Should be symmetrical for passengers - it tries to have the same number going in each direction on a route
02:49:51 <FLHerne> Which is logical, because you don't want all your passengers disappearing into some tiny village
02:50:05 <FLHerne> 100% is a sane default too :-)
02:50:23 <FLHerne> If your network gets totally overloaded, turn it up (it can go >100%)
02:50:39 <FLHerne> If your long-distance network is all empty, turn it down
02:50:42 <TartarusMkII> Would you suggest it for mail at all? and probably not cargo yet, as I'm noobsauce status
02:51:08 <FLHerne> Yes, since mail is just relabeled passengers IME
02:51:41 <FLHerne> Aw, everyone runs away from cargodisting freight :-(
02:53:11 <TartarusMkII> Well tell me more, does it get weird?
02:53:21 <TartarusMkII> like, I struggle to find a good way to get supply chains completed to begin with XD
02:54:22 <FLHerne> Can be a bit more difficult early on, since you don't have quite so much control
02:54:41 <FLHerne> Say you have three coal mines and a steel mill and a lime kiln
02:55:46 <FLHerne> If you connect all of them up with coal trains, each mine will usually want to send some of its cargo to each of the secondaries
02:56:23 <FLHerne> You can avoid that by setting up the network to give each mine only a connection to one industry, but that's no fun :P
02:57:10 <FLHerne> What I tend to do is have big 'hubs' - i.e. all cargo from several primaries goes into one hub, and is then sorted out and sent off to its chosen industries
02:57:18 <TartarusMkII> haha Iw ill experiment with it later when I have a better idea, but I feel like some of the bus systems Ive made are too strong, so I'll be glad to require a network for them
02:57:33 <TartarusMkII> I can use trams for city bussing, and RVs for intercity, I suppose
02:57:42 <TartarusMkII> or.. hm.. trains.
02:57:59 <TartarusMkII> if I have two small towns linked together, then another set of two soemwhere else, then ONE train line that connects them both, is that a sufficient network?
02:58:09 <TartarusMkII> also do I ahve to set transfers, or does picking up and dropping off simply WORK?
02:59:05 <FLHerne> You don't *need* a network as such
02:59:27 <FLHerne> If you have two totally unconnected cities, passengers will just pootle around between the stops in each city
02:59:55 <FLHerne> If you then put a train line between them, a percentage of the passengers from each city will want to go to somewhere in the other one
03:00:06 <FLHerne> Depending on the distance and your settings
03:00:29 <TartarusMkII> so do passengers with destinations only get created in point A if there is a path to B in the first place?
03:00:43 <TartarusMkII> so if I do have two inner city bus systems not connected, will no one ever even ask to go to the other city?
03:00:51 <Flygon> CargoDist is a blessing and a curse
03:00:54 <FLHerne> And what's a 'sufficient' network for that depends on how many of them there are and how big the trains are and blah
03:01:02 <Flygon> It utterly overwhelms Tram networks when a city is really roaring
03:01:15 <FLHerne> Flygon: Yes, but then you get to build little circular metros!
03:01:43 <Flygon> Still gotta fill the gaps the Metros don't
03:01:56 <Flygon> The Metros are painful to build due to the fact that... well
03:02:03 <Flygon> You can't just plop them in underground
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03:03:56 <FLHerne> I find that a circular metro with radial tram lines going outward through each stop balances quite well
03:04:50 <TartarusMkII> cute trams'r cute.
03:05:14 <TartarusMkII> I have the dutch station GRF, and I notice it has a metro set of station squares, that make it look like stairs going down under the ground. DO these serve some kind of purpose?
03:05:36 <FLHerne> The point I was trying to make were the little tube trains hiding in the middle (but trams are cute)
03:05:42 <FLHerne> Nope, they just look pretty
03:05:45 <Eddi|zuHause> no, they just look that way
03:07:48 <FLHerne> Most of the large trainsets have some form of 'metro' train
03:08:12 <FLHerne> Slow but high acceleration, high-capacity, very short loading/unloading times
03:08:16 <TartarusMkII> I guess they can be used to extend other stations' passenger pick up area?
03:08:30 <TartarusMkII> so in a bigger city, they might look like a metro, Iguess?..
03:08:45 <FLHerne> You could, but that's sort of cheating :P
03:09:56 <TartarusMkII> By the way thanks a ton for talking to me about this, I've never played TTD, so to have people explain the mods and such makes the game so much more fun.
03:10:59 <FLHerne> Mostly you just use those sorts of tiles to make things look nice :-)
03:12:10 <FLHerne> Perhaps if you had one station on tunnels over another one, or had it as an entrance to a subway accessed by the platform stairs?
03:13:26 <TartarusMkII> I love that design, man
03:13:30 <TartarusMkII> are these from your games?
03:16:51 <TartarusMkII> I'd love to see more screen shots if you felt like taking them!
03:16:56 <TartarusMkII> You make stuff look quite nice.
03:17:09 <TartarusMkII> Any of your networks or interchanges and stuff too, or loading for industries, if you don't mind? <3!
03:18:09 <FLHerne> I do have a screenshot thread (that I haven't updated for ages :-/ )
03:18:17 <Supercheese> you could check out the screenshot section of the forum
03:18:32 <FLHerne> And yes, that entire subforum is probably worth looking at
03:19:31 <FLHerne> I stole a lot of ideas from "Dr B Ching" on there, and probably unconsciously from everyone else
03:23:06 <TartarusMkII> awesome thanks guys
03:25:47 <FLHerne> Should sleep, goodnight
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04:21:43 <Flygon_> It always bothered me how the Dutch set never had more 'intermediatory' tiles
04:21:47 *** Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
04:33:08 <TartarusMkII> He's long gone my friend!
05:11:40 * Flygon goes shoots Myst Cases then
05:58:42 <TartarusMkII> For Cargodist, do you guys prefer symmetrical or asymmetrical/>
06:01:40 <Supercheese> I prefer manual...
06:04:53 <TartarusMkII> how come? And I more so mean for mail and passengers rather than cargo
06:04:58 <Pikka> symmetrical for passengers and mail, asymmetrical for freight. :)
06:05:51 <TartarusMkII> why for freight?
06:06:02 <Sylf> cargodist makes me pull my hair. My hair's already getting thin without the added stress.
06:07:59 <JezK> i've been using asymmetrical, but i don't really understand the difference
06:08:16 <JezK> Sylf, it seems to make more sense to me than the default system
06:08:24 <JezK> stuff wants to go to a place, get it there
06:08:45 <Sylf> we play very different style of game.
06:10:56 <JezK> the only time i get stressed is when signals aren't doing what i think they should be doing
06:15:00 <TartarusMkII> I notice that a lot of FLHerne's screenshots involve some kinds of stations that actually show items on the platforms
06:15:08 <TartarusMkII> like stones, grain, or even what looks like tiny people?
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06:17:24 <JezK> hmm i know the japanese stations do that, it's cute
06:17:26 <Supercheese> some stations do that, like ISR
06:17:50 <Supercheese> and mb's NewStations
06:19:15 <TartarusMkII> does it know what is supposed to be there? =O
06:19:51 <TartarusMkII> And I can't find "Newstations"
06:21:03 <kamnet> MB's NewStations are on his own website. Which I'll have to Google for :D
06:25:25 <kamnet> There we go. Yeah making stations show cargo or people are a pain, so most coders don't bother with it.
06:26:00 <kamnet> Michael Blunk does, OzTrans did, some ISR tiles do. That's pretty much it.
06:26:25 <Sylf> I want to see YETI crowding stations
06:27:05 <TartarusMkII> how do I install this?" I only know how to use the ingame downloader
06:27:13 <TartarusMkII> but ty very much!
06:29:22 <kamnet> In your OpenTTD folder create a folder named "newgrf" and drop it there.
06:30:11 <kamnet> You'll need to unpack .zip files, but if it's in a .tar file you can leave it packed. You can have subfolders inside the newgrf folder as well to organize your stuff.
06:30:12 <Sylf> Assuming you're on Windows... You download the Windows version of the file from the site, open it with some zip program (like winzip, 7-zip etc), and extract the .grf file to c:\Users\<username>\My Documents\openttd\newgrf
06:30:54 <Sylf> On Linux, the directory is ~/.openttd/newgrf
06:33:12 <Sylf> It's not exactly the same from what I remember
06:33:38 <Sylf> It may be BSD variant, but it's different enough.
06:40:10 <TartarusMkII> hi sorry, had to step out, thanks for the help!
06:40:57 <TartarusMkII> so is this just him making unescessarily shaped stations for looks?
06:51:34 <TartarusMkII> my newgrf fodler is empty- where did all fhte GRFs I downloaded in-game go? =O
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06:55:08 <TartarusMkII> nvm, either way, they showed up. woot.
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07:01:05 <kamnet> The files you downloaded from in-game are kept in the content_download directory. Don't mess with them tehre.
07:01:16 * TartarusMkII messed with them,!!!!
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07:37:58 <kamnet> DON"T MESS WITH THEM! YOU'RE TEMPTING THE FATES OF CHRIS SAWYER!!!!
08:00:52 <TartarusMkII> What kind of city expansion setting do you guys recomend?
08:01:04 <TartarusMkII> I dont have it set to the default, I ahve it set to 'improved' I think..
08:03:53 <kamnet> I let it randomly select
08:05:56 <TartarusMkII> I feel like it's hard to extend the roads of towns then, because you don't know whic hway they want it to go.
08:06:09 <TartarusMkII> And if it's set to random, does it choose randomly for the whole map, or town by town?
08:08:01 <kamnet> If the game founds a town as a 3x3 grid, it will always expand on that. With original or improved, you never know what you'll get for sure, but landscape will dictate much of how it grows
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08:12:06 <TartarusMkII> if I build roads for it, will they brach off of my roads, or get all confused?
08:12:13 <TartarusMkII> if it is improved or original, I mean
08:13:49 <Supercheese> I believe towns will use any road(s) you give them
08:22:41 <TartarusMkII> Hm, any nice GRFs that give towns more buildings to choose from to build?
08:23:18 <Supercheese> Total Town Replacement Set (TTRS)
08:23:28 <Supercheese> those spring to mind
08:23:38 <Supercheese> Japan Set should also have houses
08:23:59 <TartarusMkII> Can they be used together?
08:24:18 <Supercheese> I use the first 3 together
08:24:23 <kamnet> Yep. I pretty much use just about all of them.
08:24:25 <Supercheese> they work fine but I cannot speak for Japan set
08:24:51 <kamnet> Most sets offer lots of buildings for Temperate. I've found much fewer for the other climates, and even fewer for eras outside of 1950 to 2050
08:24:59 <TartarusMkII> awesome, thanks!
08:30:38 <TartarusMkII> so now my roads look like this.. And I am wondering, do they ev er change? Or look more advanced than just slabs of stone?
08:35:20 <Supercheese> I think those are TTRS roads? If so they should change at some point
08:35:32 <Supercheese> start a new game with the same grf configuration in the year 1990 or later to check
08:35:52 <Supercheese> not that they change in 1990, just it's well past when they should
08:36:16 <TartarusMkII> sure sure, good idea
08:36:50 <TartarusMkII> out of curiosity, what is a good time to start the game when you don't have things specifically made for pre-industrial stuff?
08:37:20 <TartarusMkII> And yes, they do change, awesome.
08:50:19 <TartarusMkII> Also, Is there any way to see like, an overlay of sorts to see where catchment areas are? So I can see where of a city might not be getting cvoered?
08:52:59 <kamnet> TTRS roads flip over in 1950. I think you can configure them to flip earlier. It won't show in-game until you reload it, though.
08:54:53 <kamnet> There really isn't a lot of good content for the game before 1950 and after 2050, the classic TTD eras. Artists and coders have only been coming around to those earlier and later eras in the last few years. FIRS has coded support for earlier stuff and the later stuff, but the graphics are still based in mid-20th century
08:55:29 <kamnet> You might eventually convince Andy to update them, especially if you can draw close to his style :D
08:56:48 <TartarusMkII> Okay, that's cool
08:56:56 <TartarusMkII> And about the area?
09:04:16 <TartarusMkII> And I notice wit hcargo dist on the passengers, they all rteally want to go to the 'central' terminal really bad, but idk why..
09:04:21 <TartarusMkII> Seems so strange
09:07:14 <TartarusMkII> I made 4 stations around a big city, and the trams have orders to simply stop at each 4 then repeat
09:07:26 <TartarusMkII> but it seems like there is a huge build up at the last station. I wonder what I'm doing wrong
09:10:25 <TartarusMkII> the stations all ahve hundreds of passengers EXCEPT the first stop...
09:10:29 <TartarusMkII> which has like, none
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09:32:44 <kamnet> No there's not automatic way to view serviced areas in vanilla OpenTTD. There is a patch, it's a bit CPU hungry but it works okay. best you can do in vanilla is to turn on display of station cachement in the station placement screen to see where it will cover.
09:34:22 <V453000> which is quite a shame.
09:34:27 <kamnet> If you have CargoDist enabled, then you're not doing anything wrong. cD sends cargo to available destinations through your existing networks.
09:35:11 <kamnet> I'm going to guess that the area covering "central" has a high number of buildings which can accept passengers, and thus it's the popular destination
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09:50:37 <TartarusMkII> I see one dock that uses fish to make food, but I can't figure out where to get fish from?
09:51:53 <kamnet> build long trains to harvest them.
09:52:45 <TartarusMkII> also, this is happening again, the passenger imbalance is now in differences of 500 or so passengers 0_o I am thinkign that trying to make a closed circle with the way my orders are set just wont work
09:55:37 <kamnet> They might improve some if you make direct routes, but you may likely find that even if you do that, passengers still prefer to ride the loop and go via the other stations
09:55:53 <argoneus> good monday morning train friends
09:56:43 <kamnet> And, yes, long trains. Because nobody wants to see a bunch of short trains trying to swim in the ocean. It's tedious and unimpressive.
09:57:03 <TartarusMkII> Also, I see sandbanks and title-less platforms in the ocean, but clickign them says they accept passengers, but produce nothing?..
09:57:08 <V453000> I dont see how is train length relevant with fishing :D
09:57:18 <kamnet> Unless you're playing Iron Horse. Then you cackle with glee every time something ddrowns.
09:57:23 <argoneus> guess what time it is
09:57:55 <kamnet> I don't have to guess. The channel tells me what time it is on every post :D
09:58:01 <argoneus> it's ideaguying time
09:58:03 <kamnet> [03:57] argoneus guess what time it is
09:58:06 <argoneus> openttd needs rollercoasters
09:59:07 <V453000> Warning: Channel has been polluted with stupid ideas without anybody actually working on them. Do you wish to quit? [Y/N]
09:59:50 <kamnet> Nobody's ever finished making the Funfair objects. Wish he hadn't disappeared. :(
10:00:20 <kamnet> SAC made some a decade ago and still hasn't published them.
10:00:31 <TartarusMkII> Hey guys, lets expand toylan -ban-
10:14:32 <supermop_> re-learning grasshopper
10:24:48 <planetmaker> TartarusMkII, toyland is seriously under-rated. And the most complex default game concerning industries
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10:25:33 <planetmaker> look at the chains. And look at the individual industries on how they work / look. It's the most complicated in terms of that
10:25:57 <Pikka> it's still not very complicated though :P
10:26:13 <planetmaker> sprites are re-coloured, there's different animations... and yes :) I just saw we can now have even more industries ;)
10:30:12 <supermop_> even more industries...?
10:41:43 <supermop_> that is a lot of industries
10:41:56 <supermop_> still the same amount of cargo though?
10:48:05 <planetmaker> increasing those is a lot more difficult :)
10:49:05 <V453000> what do we need moar industries for? firs economies?:P
10:56:56 <planetmaker> no clue. I was offline 14 days straight
10:57:10 <planetmaker> I thought *you* would tell me :P
10:57:17 <planetmaker> and feared it might relate to yeti ;)
10:57:39 <Pikka> it's so people can use every industry set at once
10:59:01 <planetmaker> yeah... or possibly to avoid the problem with the port industries and the industry chain graph
10:59:12 <planetmaker> (deliberately ignoring the irony ;)
10:59:21 <V453000> pm yeti uses 16 industries and I say it all the time that sensible system > 25478 industries
11:06:03 <supermop_> maxwell seems very counter-intuitive to me so far
11:15:11 <supermop_> im just going to pay someone else to do this
12:15:37 <kamnet> planetmaker, if I remember correctly, a week or so ago Andythenorth mentioned he was over the industry limit while trying to reorganize industry IDs, frosch123 looked into it and determined it was a limit that could be raised and couldn't find a reason why it was set where it was.
12:23:02 <V453000> interesting solution supermop_ :P
12:27:05 <supermop_> its such i pain V453000
12:27:26 <supermop_> i figure there is a reason these guys can charge $1000 per image
12:27:43 <V453000> but the advertisement page said it is easy and intuitive! :D
12:28:29 <supermop_> and to be honest even not counting the software - if i have to start from scratch it may well take $1000 of my time - but i dont think i can bill for hours i spend banging my head against the wall
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12:29:20 <supermop_> if i tell my client lets just send it to the pros, it will be $2000, versus me saying hey i made some ok renders, that will be $4000 please
12:34:56 <V453000> supermop_: I think that is the time when you just need to be a good merchant and guess how much can you ask from your client
12:35:44 <supermop_> i mean i'd love to make the $4000
12:36:27 <V453000> if they will pay it ... :)
12:36:44 <supermop_> but I'm already in a mild panic about trying to pick a rendered, learn how to use it, rig up the model, and get however many good shots in the next week
12:37:10 <V453000> yeah that is sub-optimal :d
12:37:19 <supermop_> thats the thing, client is a start up in fairly lean phase right now
12:37:37 <supermop_> needs good renders to show to his customers/investors to get the money
12:37:47 <supermop_> but needs the money to get the renders
12:37:49 <V453000> I understand, we do the same :)
12:38:59 <supermop_> so of his cash that he has now, if i take too much for the render then there is less to pay for design work etc
12:39:29 <V453000> is there trial v-ray for rhino?
12:39:30 <supermop_> i think i'm too mentally stuck to make a decision
12:39:46 <supermop_> so i could try that
12:40:01 <supermop_> im using the maxwell trial now but it leaves a watermark
12:40:08 <V453000> I can help you with that somewhat, if the interface is at least somewhat similar to my stuff
12:40:41 <supermop_> i feel like normally i could pick one of these up and learn it, but sort of in decision paralysis
12:41:44 <supermop_> esp as there are bits and pieces of modelling that still need to be done, so i keep bouncing back and forth between modelling, previewing stuff in flamingo, and trying to figure out new sofftware
12:42:07 <V453000> can rhino make an export to max?
12:42:12 <V453000> if yes I can do the render for you
12:42:24 <supermop_> i can export as 3ds no problem
12:42:46 <supermop_> all of my furniture is 3ds models imported as blocks
12:43:59 <supermop_> i tried brushing up on grasshopper today to replace my ceiling system with a parametricaly generated thing mostly to procrastinate
12:47:52 <supermop_> i wonder if i can use grasshopper to make trams
13:06:38 <argoneus> V453000 in a nutshell: :) :D :) :) :D :) :)
13:07:51 <argoneus> will you invite me to your marriage?
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17:00:39 <V453000> since I dont even know you, probably not? :)
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18:11:29 <frosch123> planetmaker: it's for firs
18:11:43 <frosch123> firs has > 70 industries now, the economies select some subsets of them
18:12:34 <frosch123> previously andy would have to assign dynamic ids to the same industry in different economies
18:12:42 <frosch123> which would have resulted in a terrible monologue in this channel
18:12:48 <frosch123> so i better extended the id range :p
18:13:08 <Eddi|zuHause> that would have been easier, if there were GRM for industries ;)
18:14:11 <frosch123> grm is for global ids, industry ids were never global
18:15:06 <frosch123> grm would be for cargos, if sets wouldn't use them all anyway :p
18:15:45 <Eddi|zuHause> well, sets tried to leave one free for regearing and stuff...
18:15:54 <frosch123> actually, even cargos would use local ids with translation tables
18:15:59 <frosch123> so sprites are the only valid usecase for grm
18:17:30 <Eddi|zuHause> huh? i don't think cargo translation tables apply to sets defining cargos, only sets using cargos
18:17:56 <planetmaker> hehe, frosch123 :) I nearly thought so. And yes, I like it
18:18:34 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: yes, currently, but if cargo amount would be extended, it would be done like railtypes
18:18:51 <planetmaker> it might also and especially obsolete the need for variable acceptance / output of cargoes for industries like the ports. Just use different ports and the cargo chain view is unbroken again
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18:20:09 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: railtypes work in a way that assigns them a random id, as long as one is free?
18:20:25 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that could still use DRM to check whether there are free slots left
18:20:33 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: yes, like industries, houses, objects, ...
18:21:10 <frosch123> but i doubt anyone would care
18:25:04 * planetmaker would not. Most likely :P
18:34:13 <Alberth> hi hi, good point about industry chain window
18:36:19 <Alberth> smallmap legend explodes doesn't it? it lists industries
18:36:46 <Alberth> I often wish I have a cargo to select instead
18:36:56 <frosch123> yes, but you can distingish industries producing different things
18:36:59 <Alberth> iirc I tried that once, but it didn't work nicely
18:37:24 <frosch123> i wondered about dynamically changing colours
18:37:50 <frosch123> like producing/accepting when linked to cargo chain wnidow
18:39:27 <Alberth> don't think that would work, I often want a specific industry, rather than all
18:40:14 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27280 trunk/src/base_consist.cpp (2015-05-11 18:40:06 +0200 )
18:40:15 <DorpsGek> -Fix (r24998): Cloning/autoreplace/autorenew did not copy custom service intervals. (Johnnei)
18:40:48 <Alberth> haha, shows how often custom intervals are used :p
18:40:50 <planetmaker> I'm a bit sad that adf88 doesn't join this channel
18:40:58 <planetmaker> hehe, yeah. Not so often it seems :)
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18:53:11 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27281 trunk/src/economy.cpp (2015-05-11 18:53:05 +0200 )
18:53:12 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Do not shadow local variables with other local variables in sub-scopes.
18:58:15 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27282 trunk/src/economy.cpp (2015-05-11 18:58:09 +0200 )
18:58:16 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6254]: Enforce the company's default service intervals when purchasing another company. (Johnnei)
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19:18:58 <kamnet> Oh, that's a good fix!
19:20:49 <planetmaker> those are hidden ones which with zero chance are detected in patch packs :)
19:22:18 * Rubidium has a feeling he knows a patch pack that will contain that patch ;)
19:25:13 <kamnet> Why wouldn't a patch pack enforce service intervals?
19:28:09 <planetmaker> it would. But finding it in a patch pack is very unlikely given the difference in user base. Nothing more I wanted to hint at
19:28:48 <frosch123> planetmaker: in that case we need a new category for samu bugs :)
19:34:52 <Taede> planetmaker, i added the files to fs#6298
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19:44:00 <strachan> I see there's a 'Dont ask to ask' policy here so ill just ask: how do you add/remove GRF's in the scenario editor...can't figure it out :s
19:45:02 <Wolf01> there is also a "do not remove grfs from a game" policy
19:45:32 <V453000> removing is even worse :D
19:45:35 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27283 /trunk/src/lang (belarusian.txt brazilian_portuguese.txt) (2015-05-11 19:45:26 +0200 )
19:45:36 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
19:45:37 <DorpsGek> belarusian - 4 changes by KorneySan
19:45:38 <DorpsGek> brazilian_portuguese - 20 changes by Tucalipe
19:46:29 <Wolf01> but if that's a scenario (not a savegame) with a decorative grf which don't alter the functionality, you might run ottd as a developer, but that's not my business
19:46:59 <frosch123> it's a hidden setting
19:47:09 <frosch123> scenario_developer_tools or something
19:47:28 <strachan> so i gotta make a whole world map and build it all with the GRF's i want...and to change trainsets etc I got to build it again from the heightmap upwards?
19:47:46 <strachan> (and thanks for your help, much appreciated ;) )
19:48:26 <frosch123> you can use the hidden setting
19:48:32 <frosch123> but there is no proper solution
19:50:29 <strachan> bonus question: are there any grf packs that contain multiple sets of grfs so you can get around the limit?
19:52:10 <frosch123> no, some people even split their grfs for marketing purposes
19:52:11 <planetmaker> there is no patch pack which gets around that limit without destroying multiplayer
19:52:32 <planetmaker> the limit is a networking limit. And 63... is A LOT of newgrfs
19:53:43 <strachan> it is, and i only play LAN games but with the scenery, multiple vehicle sets and town replacement etc I find its just not enough...
19:53:57 <planetmaker> LAN is also network.
19:54:52 <V453000> marketing purposes XD
19:55:13 <glx> planetmaker: the question was not patch pack but grf pack :)
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19:57:11 <planetmaker> :) grf pack... there's only one. Ancient. Not useful anymore. The others of significance are all on bananas :)
19:58:01 <strachan> I have probably all of bananas haha
19:58:05 <frosch123> also the ancient one was no "grf pack" as in using one grf slot
19:59:23 <strachan> do you guys prefer ECS or FIRS?
19:59:51 <glx> ECS is silly with the landscape requirements
20:00:27 <strachan> honestly never used ECS other than once and wasn't fond of it...just curious if im missing something
20:00:40 <strachan> what landscape requirements?
20:05:53 <strachan> nevermind, i think i know what you mean. Oh well, thanks guys. Ill no doubt be back at some point ;)
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20:22:07 <sim642> I'll just ask this instead of wasting ages trying to dig into the source: If I want to code an OpenTTD server chat and IRC bridge, which pieces of the networking protocol do I actually need if I don't care about the rest?
20:23:48 <frosch123> it does not need to modify the ottd source btw
20:23:58 <frosch123> ottd has an interface for such things
20:24:18 <kamnet> Didn't somebody already do that, though?
20:24:39 <frosch123> i think there are at least 5 such things
20:24:56 <frosch123> python, java, c#, and other weird languages
20:24:56 <sim642> If you're referring me to existing projects I assume it isn't the easiest thing to do without prior knowledge?
20:25:43 <sim642> I know I don't need to modify ottd source, I just looked at it to understand how to poll server status with UDP but that doesn't give me chat I think
20:26:13 <frosch123> but as said, there are already 5+ solutions
20:47:08 <frosch123> autopilot is deprecated, soap is the successor
20:49:45 <Rubidium> sim642: providing chat with a bot that is being connected as a normal client to openttd is quite cumbersome, since it requires you to implement certain parts of being a game client. Furthermore the game client protocol is unstable, so the admin protocol is a more reliable way to get a chat bridge going
20:59:28 <kamnet> somebody on the coop wiki should indicate ont he page that autopilot is depreciated :D
21:03:58 <frosch123> what have you done? :üp
21:04:35 <V453000> spam filter seems to be too smart and wont let me do the thing
21:04:48 <V453000> we had some problems with spam earlier :D
21:04:59 <frosch123> does it detect "V453000" as a randomly generated spam user?
21:06:44 <V453000> btw frosch123 have you tried any fiddling with the CC algorithm for 32bpp?
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21:37:12 <frosch123> how can i transpose a selection of cells in libreoffice calc? :)
21:38:01 <frosch123> ah, copy+paste transposed
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22:15:18 <peter1138> dark green worries me :p
22:15:56 <frosch123> yeah, misclicked somewhen apparently
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22:17:35 <Rubidium> frosch123: orange actually looks like red and blue swap at #5, assuming the angle of #3-#4 is continued and an & 255 is performed
22:18:08 <peter1138> And yeah, that's why using 1 single remap colour in 32bpp graphics looks like shit.
22:18:43 <frosch123> peter1138: i think about ignoring the map colour, and instead map the "brightness" to the linear interpolation of those curves
22:19:01 <frosch123> i.e. all company colours map to those curves
22:19:29 <peter1138> Maths because artists are lazy :D
22:20:01 <frosch123> kind of like providing separate palettes for company colours and using the brightness as palette index
22:20:42 <frosch123> Rubidium: i guess it just goes towards white when red is maxed
22:21:17 <peter1138> Could be awkward mapping it so that 8bpp stuff works normally. May depend when it's mapped.
22:21:59 <frosch123> it's essentially a new blitter mode
22:22:11 <frosch123> we already have special ones for crashed/transparent
22:22:25 <frosch123> there can as well be special ones for company colours
22:22:35 <frosch123> which are activated when the cc remaps are used
22:22:55 <frosch123> ofc only when not using sse :p
22:26:51 <peter1138> Annoyingly remapping on load would be most efficient...
22:27:11 <peter1138> If only you knew it was always remapped with CC, at that point.
22:27:49 <frosch123> 256 times the sprite cache usage :p
22:28:24 <planetmaker> :) Otoh, might even work ;)
22:28:37 <peter1138> True, I was only thinking of remapping the CC to the 8 CC bits, but yeah.
22:28:58 <peter1138> planetmaker, 256 along with 4x zoom... :D
22:29:14 <peter1138> OpenTTD requirements, 64GB RAM...
22:29:23 <frosch123> i make the drawing rather multithreaded :p
22:29:42 <peter1138> Or, get the artists to draw it properly ;)
22:58:39 <__ln__> at least they hopefully know which country was fighting against which.
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