IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-05-04
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05:03:31 <JezK> playing with cargodist is fun! but how do you enable the overlay in the main map?
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08:37:08 <Flygon> I've gone from having a GPU run at 99c
08:37:13 <Flygon> Down to having it run at 27c
08:37:19 <Flygon> All in the space of 15 minutes
08:37:23 <Flygon> It's GPU fans fell off. Somehow.
08:40:20 <V453000> you should create a social media page for your CPU so it has constant audience of fans
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08:45:55 <andythenorth> is FIRS defaul primary production a bit low?
08:46:09 <V453000> idk, havent played it in a while
08:46:11 <andythenorth> maybe it’s just some industries
08:46:15 <V453000> but it is probably fine
08:46:23 * andythenorth wonders if production is a parameter thing
08:46:33 * andythenorth hates solving problems iwth parameters
08:48:02 <andythenorth> coastal distance check for water based industries
08:48:27 <andythenorth> reason for that is...?
08:48:54 <JezK> hi, does anyone know how to activate the map overlay for cargodist?
08:49:38 <JezK> i can see it in the minimap but it's so tiny it's hard to see the detail
08:49:42 <supermop> ive never found it to be low andythenorth
08:49:55 <andythenorth> probably just a few industries
08:50:00 <andythenorth> dredging site seems low
08:50:07 <andythenorth> and they don’t cluster
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08:54:06 <Flygon> <Flygon> Is it stupid to use blu-tack to temp. fix the GPU fans until I can get replacement fans?
08:54:42 <andythenorth> nah, it’s heat-proof
08:55:12 <andythenorth> definitely won’t melt
08:55:38 <andythenorth> and it won’t slip or deform if the fans have a slight vibration
08:55:51 <andythenorth> also the GPU is expendable no?
08:55:54 <Flygon> I was worried it might be dangerous in some way
08:56:09 <Flygon> Expendable in such a way that I know it's a lemon regardless, but I'm utterly broke
08:56:16 <Flygon> So I gotta MacGyver it back to life
08:56:32 <andythenorth> sometimes andythenorth is not wholly telling the truth
08:58:39 <Flygon> There's two directions for you, really
08:58:54 <Flygon> I'mma like you even more :P
08:59:25 <andythenorth> I wouldn’t be using blu-tack personally
08:59:57 <Flygon> I'll probably just have to buy new fans for $10
09:00:06 <Flygon> And wait for a friend to have another spare GPU x.x
09:07:04 <Flygon> andythenorth: Seems to work so far
09:07:14 <Flygon> I can keep the PC in power positon without shit falling off
09:08:25 <Flygon> I'm gonna need it for a month and a half
09:08:36 <Flygon> The time required to get the spare money, then shipping for new fans
09:09:34 <Flygon> Now resetting the clock speeds from basement minimums
09:09:39 <Flygon> Effectively doubling them...
09:09:48 <Flygon> So... manufacturer recommended settings now
09:10:01 <Flygon> From 27c to 32c... not bad.
09:10:18 <Flygon> And RO isn't lagging whenever a new object comes on screen
09:12:36 <Flygon> Fans are vibrating a tiny bit
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09:14:29 <Flygon> Now just 33c with case on and RO running
09:29:51 <kamnet> JezK: go to the map menu, select Cargo Flow Legend. Select the cargoes you want to see displayed.
09:31:56 <JezK> kamnet, ahh i didn't realise the map menu dropped down
09:32:12 <kamnet> Many of the menus drop down if you click and hold
09:41:21 <kamnet> *sighs* I wish FooBar would come back.
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09:51:24 <supermop> andythenorth: dredge is fine low
09:51:42 <supermop> otherwise you end up with way too much to haul away
10:00:53 <andythenorth> nml is failing on code that isn’t in the source
10:01:15 <andythenorth> the code in the traceback doesn’t exist in firs.pnml
10:03:13 * andythenorth plays ‘hunt the include'
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10:46:18 <FLHerne> Is there a convenient API to get existing grfids from Bananas, other than scraping them off the newgrf list?
10:46:38 <FLHerne> The latter doesn't seem particularly hard, but might break if the site gets updated
10:48:25 <Alberth> how is that useful to do?
10:50:28 <Alberth> (there is no such api afaik)
10:52:12 <Alberth> and it's also quite useless, the list is not complete, and never will be
10:52:58 <Alberth> hmm, there is a section with reserved ids in newgrfspecs I think
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11:00:54 <andythenorth> I can’t remove my ‘reservations’ from that :(
11:01:04 <andythenorth> owing to my wiki creds don’t work
11:01:59 <andythenorth> I don’t want all those ranges :(
11:03:10 <andythenorth> I never asked for them
11:03:16 <andythenorth> the whole concept is daft
11:03:27 <andythenorth> and I apparently have the largest number of reservations :(
11:03:57 <FLHerne> Alberth: There's no actual comprehensive list of used grfids
11:03:59 <kamnet> What ranges do you want?
11:04:29 <FLHerne> But the Bananas one is about as close as it's likely to get, since the vast majority of used grfs are on there
11:04:31 <andythenorth> I don’t want any ranges
11:04:43 <andythenorth> it’s an obsolete concept
11:05:16 <FLHerne> I've gotten totally distracted and am trying to write a GUI NML frontend
11:05:32 <FLHerne> So a 'this grfid is already in use' warning seems like a useful feature
11:05:47 <andythenorth> historically there may be some old grfs of mine out there with earlier grfids
11:05:53 <andythenorth> from the time when incrementing the grfid per-release was standard
11:05:54 <FLHerne> And is a lot easier to implement than all the actually-useful important ones :P
11:06:25 <Alberth> you won't be able to publish your grf if the id is already used
11:06:30 * andythenorth counts 8 grfids on his fingers
11:06:49 <andythenorth> CHIPS, HEQS, FISH, Squid, FIRS, Termite, Road Hog, Iron Horse
11:06:53 <andythenorth> did I miss anything? :|
11:07:02 <Alberth> and you're missing the entire simuscape collection, and a load of very old grfs
11:08:25 <FLHerne> That applies to your "won't be able to publish..." comment just as much :P
11:08:29 <andythenorth> kamnet: thanks :)
11:08:35 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 1966315
11:08:43 <kamnet> Didn't even realize I had an account there, but, woot.
11:08:48 <andythenorth> I didn’t need that many IDs, really
11:09:29 <FLHerne> I can't see any possible way to reliably detect every collision, but I don't see why that should make detecting most of them a waste of time
11:10:06 <Alberth> copy the reserved ids from newgrfspecs, and you're done
11:10:15 <kamnet> Rubidium was apparently the one who put those on the list.
11:10:24 <andythenorth> I think he was trolling :P
11:10:28 <andythenorth> probably trolling me
11:10:53 <FLHerne> That list is _definitely_ not comprehensive :P
11:12:15 <Alberth> compared to coding problems for most nml users, the grfid is a non-issue :)
11:13:36 <andythenorth> it’s the most ridiculous storm-in-teacup :P
11:13:45 <andythenorth> it’s not even bikeshedding
11:14:28 <andythenorth> at least in bikeshedding, people waste their time talking about a non-issue that they understand
11:14:35 <andythenorth> instead of one that they don’t understand
11:15:18 <Alberth> do nicer things instead, like adding a feature to firs :)
11:16:15 <kamnet> Copying from BaNaNaS makes sense becuase that's the vast majority of the most up-to-date NewGRFs. There aren't many actively updated NewGRFs that isn't on BaNaNaS.
11:18:20 <FLHerne> Alberth: It's a tool for creating newgrfs, sort of like a more-broken and probably never-to-be-finished grfmaker clone
11:18:53 <FLHerne> Alberth: The idea is to have it check the user's grfID choice as soon as they enter it, and then at least it'll reduce the possibility of getting conflicting IDs
11:20:02 <FLHerne> And yes, I'm mostly worrying about it because it's a good way to procrastinate without doing the actually-hard bits...
11:21:38 <Alberth> most grfmaker usage is out of cold-water fear
11:22:18 <Alberth> you could easily make a text template that can be filled in, and cover most use
11:22:39 <FLHerne> Yep. OTOH, people keep using it despite being (a) incomprehensible anyway and (b) unmaintained/strongly disrecommended for years :P
11:23:04 <Alberth> people are just scared to death by a text editor
11:23:05 <FLHerne> Mostly I just want to get the hang of PyQt and this seems like a fun thing to do
11:25:35 <Alberth> I don't know how you use nml at a windows machine, but doing that from a gui could be a big step
11:26:03 <Alberth> probably combined by getting rid of the crazy cpp requirement
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11:43:53 <titch> hello. need a bit of help with the map gen. i have it set to "Terrain Type: Very Flat, Smoothness: Very Smooth, Sea Level: Very low" but i still seem to be getting maps full of water on the "Temperate" landscape. any help regarding this would be useful as i hate spending all my money early on on changing the land layout
11:48:46 <Alberth> try setting the water level to custom, eg 1%
11:49:36 <Alberth> but your very flat world is difficult for controlling amount of water
11:49:53 <Alberth> a small shift in height gives lots more water
11:51:53 <Alberth> your goal is to a small amount of water, or none at all?
11:53:31 <Alberth> an alternative can be to make a heightmap, and use that
11:53:46 <Alberth> or make a nice map in the editor
11:55:17 <titch> cheers. see what happens
11:58:51 <Alberth> as a suggestion, you may want to try not changing the landscape in the game one day. It makes building a network much more challenging / interesting
11:59:59 <Alberth> in particular with a somewhat less flat map :)
12:14:23 <titch> true... but i guess im still trying to learn how to best do this game... im a noob xD
12:17:07 <Alberth> that's fine, when I started playing, I was leveling everything too :)
12:17:19 <Alberth> have fun figuring out what you like best :)
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14:38:52 <kamnet> GAH. Very much dislike youtube right now. "Do No Evil", unless others can profit from your works.
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17:51:57 <FLHerne> Why are there separate properties 'running_cost_base' and 'running_cost_factor'? Surely they just combine to give a single value anyway?
17:52:16 <FLHerne> If it's a legacy thing, which is it recommended to use?
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17:53:56 <frosch123> running_cost_base is an enum
17:54:06 <frosch123> you can set it to train engine, wagon, road vehicle, etc
17:54:21 <frosch123> running_cost_factor is the actual thing for setting the price
17:54:44 <FLHerne> Ok, so I'll just ignore the former :P
17:54:52 <frosch123> essentially running_cost_base specifies which setting in the basecost newgrf should affect your vehicles
17:55:23 <FLHerne> Actually, steam/diesel/electric might matter
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18:17:36 <andythenorth> FLHerne: how are you making your grf making thing?
18:18:07 <FLHerne> It's pretty much a 'can I make something in pyqt' exercise
18:19:27 <FLHerne> So far I've got it a form to create the grf block, and a road-vehicle table that doesn't work yet
18:20:38 <andythenorth> you’re outputting nml?
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18:21:12 <FLHerne> At the moment, very hackily with format strings
18:21:21 <andythenorth> are you writing nml out as strings directly from the form submit?
18:21:32 <FLHerne> I have vague schemes to try and use nml's ast directly, but not yet
18:21:34 <andythenorth> or do you have some intermediate classes for the vehicles/tiles etc
18:22:11 <FLHerne> Intermediate classes with sanity checking
18:22:28 <FLHerne> Of course, it's likely to output gibberish anyway because it's me writing it
18:22:57 <andythenorth> I hate trying to understand other people’s code (at least, when it’s not a nice module by sane people)….but
18:23:09 <andythenorth> Road Hog et al are all driven by python classes
18:24:50 <FLHerne> Hm, I should look at that
18:24:59 <andythenorth> possibly the most useful lesson not to re-learn the hard way is vehicles vs. consists
18:25:15 <andythenorth> you need to be able to create consists for trains / rvs (articulated vehicles in both cases)
18:25:29 <andythenorth> and there are many gotchas with handling properties for consists
18:25:42 <andythenorth> so it’s easier to always have a consist for every vehicle, and specify n units
18:25:48 <andythenorth> where n is 1-[limit]
18:26:10 <andythenorth> a lot of the Road Hog code is obviously specific to that grf + that templating language
18:26:28 <andythenorth> have you got a templater?
18:26:33 <andythenorth> %s is not a good one :P
18:27:41 <FLHerne> Not yet, the whole thing is a big pile of broken hacks...
18:28:30 <andythenorth> python String templating is ok
18:28:37 <andythenorth> and included in standard library
18:28:47 <andythenorth> but lacks loops or other features you’d want in a templater
18:29:19 <andythenorth> I use chameleon, but it’s an odd choice for the problem, being designed for html/xml
18:31:29 * andythenorth wonders what genshi is like
18:33:10 <FLHerne> New-style python format strings are nice in every respect except using {} :P
18:33:39 <FLHerne> I guess I'd find myself using % in NML occasionally too though
18:36:02 <andythenorth> ideally the syntax of the templater doesn’t conflate with the syntax of nml
18:39:17 <FLHerne> You do seem to have written most of the code I need ;P
18:39:59 <FLHerne> I should definitely spend some time seeing how much of it I can steal
18:40:26 <andythenorth> FLHerne: the main issue will be unpicking what you don’t need
18:40:37 <andythenorth> it’s very hard to adapt one highly specific thing to another :P
18:40:53 <andythenorth> which is why I steal Eddi|zuHause’s concepts from CETS, but not the code
18:43:47 <FLHerne> Well, let's see if I can get basic RVs with nice simple properties working first :P
18:44:10 <FLHerne> Callbacks and switches and articulation and all the insane things people do with trains can wait (probably forever tbh)
18:46:24 <andythenorth> cb handling is a remarkably hard problem to solve in a UI
18:48:51 <FLHerne> I have a buggy mess of a flowchart lib lurking somewhere, might try redoing that
18:49:01 <andythenorth> if I was building it, I’d built it as a web service
18:49:02 <andythenorth> no binaries to distribute
18:49:02 <andythenorth> no platform-specific bugs
18:49:25 <andythenorth> hmm web service would want to be stateless
18:49:29 <FLHerne> Browsers are platforms in their own right...
18:50:14 <FLHerne> I got persuaded to fiddle with some CSS for someone, and of course it kept looking different depending on browser/version/moon phase
18:50:59 <andythenorth> but it wouldn’t affect the nml output :P
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20:02:50 <kamnet> GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
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21:07:40 <FLHerne> What was so GAAAH-worthy?
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21:31:49 <Wolf01> who? what? where? when? why?
21:35:32 <FLHerne> Fiddling with pointless drag-and-drop stuff still...
21:39:11 <andythenorth> drag-and-drop articulated vehicle maker
21:39:29 <andythenorth> have you got save-load yet? :P
21:40:07 <FLHerne> No, of course not. Who needs that?
21:40:53 <andythenorth> just use pickle :P
21:40:56 <andythenorth> and file.write()
21:41:02 <andythenorth> what could go wrong? o_O
21:41:11 <FLHerne> I'm trying to learn how to use the toolkit, and incidentally getting something that I can claim is supposed to be a grf editor :P
21:41:30 * andythenorth wonders what the file format should be
21:41:45 <andythenorth> if you stick to pure nml, you are very limited on metadata
21:41:56 <frosch123> Wolf01: calm down, full moon will go down again
21:42:01 <FLHerne> Loading directly from nml would be neat, but I doubt I can make it work anytime soon
21:42:11 <andythenorth> importing nml is one thing
21:42:19 <andythenorth> but you might not want your storage tied to nml
21:42:34 <andythenorth> you can ‘import’ nml by borrowing the nmlc parser
21:42:50 <andythenorth> but then you won’t have it in a structure matching your program
21:43:02 <Wolf01> just like my graphic coworker today "I need the uploaded file extension to show the right icon on the download link" me: >_> he: "what could go wrong?"
21:44:01 <Wolf01> I need a better way to do that, it's not some stuff to do in the template itself
21:47:27 <andythenorth> Wolf01: just map MIME type to icon?
21:47:46 <andythenorth> it’s not foolproof, but eh, it’s all your browser is doing in its download manager probably
21:47:50 <Wolf01> not in a foreach in the template
21:48:09 <andythenorth> dunno, depends on your templating language etc :)
21:48:26 <andythenorth> this is a user upload?
21:48:41 <andythenorth> sounds boring :)
21:48:55 <andythenorth> I just use the file icon from font-awesome or such :P
21:49:17 <andythenorth> you haven’t uploaded at the point where you need to render it? This is some JS magic?
21:49:24 <andythenorth> or it has been uploaded successfully already?
21:49:38 <V453000> andythenorth: wise to make RVs longer than 1 tile?
21:49:44 <V453000> how do they behave in stations?
21:49:57 <Wolf01> that's why I need some more control on the logic side, templates shouldn't do logic
21:50:02 <V453000> 8/8 best? eventually 16/8
21:50:42 <andythenorth> V453000: can’t be more than 8/8 unless you fuck around with articulated
21:50:51 <andythenorth> and if it’s articulated, just make it articulated
21:50:55 <V453000> ofc, 8+ = articulation
21:51:11 <andythenorth> there are few things in HEQS that are long than 8/8 in the sprite, but they glitch: tunnles, bridges
21:51:54 <andythenorth> Wolf01: dunno, if it was python, I’d have some list or dict from the view and iterate over that for the uploaded files
21:52:07 <andythenorth> list of tuples or whatever
21:52:55 <V453000> yez, glitches are meh
21:52:57 <Alberth> V453000: awesome work on the nuts maglev, such colourful graphics!
21:53:10 <V453000> :) thanks ... the CC is super bad though
21:54:04 <Alberth> livestock, grain, and steel just splendid to combine in a train
21:54:07 <Wolf01> we just use a MVC pattern, I have a list of files which should at least provide SplFileInfo stuff and other shorthand methods without having to write them in the template
21:56:39 * andythenorth uses the not-quite-MVC pattern that is prevalent in some python apps :P
21:56:48 <andythenorth> where the view is also the controller
21:57:04 <andythenorth> unless it delegates it to other classes, in which case it’s just a view :P
22:00:50 <andythenorth> Wolf01: in your world, does view = template?
22:01:38 <andythenorth> and controller is [PHP, Perl, .net, something]
22:02:02 <andythenorth> but PHP also lives in the templates?
22:02:45 <Wolf01> I would like to use twig for the template, but for now it is too much work, also the graphic designer should learn the new thing
22:03:13 <andythenorth> and you don’t want to spam your template with logic
22:03:48 <Wolf01> just the basic ifs and foreaches to print stuff :P
22:04:22 * andythenorth has been there and bought that T-shirt
22:04:32 <andythenorth> templates fetching objects directly from DB
22:04:37 <andythenorth> eh, let’s not do that anymore :P
22:05:13 <Wolf01> my website still does that, but it was plain html ported to php
22:05:59 <Wolf01> I would like to learn more
22:06:38 <Wolf01> I still make stupid mistakes every now and then
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23:02:36 <FLHerne> Never mind the random ordering
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23:16:29 <TartarusMkII> Hello everyone. I see in the advanced settings, options for AI players. How can I use these?
23:20:19 <FLHerne> TartarusMkII: You'll need some AIs
23:20:37 <TartarusMkII> Can you tell me any more about that/.
23:20:48 <FLHerne> Go to AI/GS settings, click Check Online Content, grab some AIs
23:21:19 <FLHerne> Then increase the number of competitors (same window) and pick AIs or leave them random
23:22:31 <TartarusMkII> Are there any AIs you'd suggest? For a novice player to play with? =o
23:23:00 <FLHerne> Not from much personal experience, I dislike AIs interfering with my masterplan :P
23:23:35 <FLHerne> NoCAB has a reputation for being fairly competent
23:24:11 <FLHerne> I saw some nice screenshots of AIAI, but never tried it
23:24:25 <FLHerne> One issue with a lot of AIs is that they don't manage save/load properly
23:24:42 <FLHerne> So many of them will effectively die the first time you save
23:25:46 <TartarusMkII> and so they are not capable of being reloaded?
23:26:14 <TartarusMkII> Much appreciated.
23:27:50 <FLHerne> The game allows for it, but several AIs don't do it properly :P
23:32:35 <FLHerne> If you wanted to play other people, Reddit S1 still seems to have some people awake
23:34:58 <TartarusMkII> Nah,. I'm content to learn and refine techniques for the fun of it for now
23:35:00 <TartarusMkII> I do appreciate it though.
23:35:05 <TartarusMkII> DO you play multiplayer any, FLHerne?
23:35:28 <FLHerne> Occasionally, mostly I go for excessive pseudorealism in SP though
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23:36:29 <TartarusMkII> I like the challenge of games like this along with the freedom part
23:37:21 <TartarusMkII> I've been wondering how MP works, gameplay wise
23:38:03 <FLHerne> TartarusMkII: On unscripted servers, people mostly just build past each other
23:38:25 <FLHerne> Sometimes collaborate to grow certain towns or compete for industries, but usually not
23:38:55 <TartarusMkII> What would scripts change?
23:38:59 <FLHerne> Some of the busier servers use GameScripts to add goals/challenges/rankings
23:39:30 <FLHerne> And that tends to push more competition and/or collaboration depending on what the goals actually are
23:40:23 <TartarusMkII> how long do these MP games go fo?
23:43:55 <FLHerne> Usually 100 years or so?
23:44:03 <FLHerne> Which is about 24 hours
23:44:11 <TartarusMkII> damn, that's interesting.
23:44:32 <mczapkie> usually servers are stopped, if nobody is logged, so it can last longer
23:44:49 <TartarusMkII> ah that makes sense.
23:45:00 <TartarusMkII> I'm so impressed with this community!
23:45:07 <FLHerne> mczapkie: Depends, reddit S1 hardly ever does :P
23:45:38 <FLHerne> nvm, I read your message slightly wrong
23:47:26 <mczapkie> of course, my statement is valid in case of not overpopulated servers :)
23:49:58 <mczapkie> Does anybody know, how to set properly mercurial communication with dev.openttdcoop.org using RSA key?
23:50:25 <mczapkie> I still have user/password question if I try tu push
23:51:17 <mczapkie> RSA was send via support issue and was replaced
23:51:39 <TartarusMkII> What are Waypoints useful for in Rails
23:52:16 <FLHerne> TartarusMkII: You send trains via them
23:52:37 <FLHerne> In case you want to force them to take a certain route or use certain platforms
23:53:14 <TartarusMkII> interesting. I can't imagine any set up that'd make use of one though
23:57:08 *** lonewolf has joined #openttd
23:57:23 <FLHerne> It forces grain trains to travel via the station, rather than using the rather steep line to the east
23:58:03 *** crusader58 has joined #openttd
23:58:07 <FLHerne> Stations have a high pathfinder penalty, so trains will do some quite nasty things to avoid going through them
23:58:38 <FLHerne> Other common uses are if you have a station at say a factory, and you're both picking up and dropping cargo
23:59:29 <FLHerne> You don't want to be in a situation where all platforms are filled with loading trains, because then no more cargo can be delivered and everything jams
continue to next day ⏵
