IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-04-24
⏴ go to previous day
00:09:39 <Odin> Anyone know offhand if the weight multiplier for freight trains also adjusts their profitability?
00:12:48 <Odin> For some reason most of the NARS engines have enough traction to pull like 30 car trains- and are unprofitable if they don't
00:25:37 *** supermop has joined #openttd
01:09:21 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd
02:11:30 <Sylf> Odin, the weight multiplier doesn't touch the payment
02:12:06 <Sylf> the slower acceleration will lead to very slight reduction in payment (if at all), and that's about it.
02:59:40 <Odin> Testing it some, I find that the profitability takes a nosedive
03:01:10 <Odin> It seems like it should literally multiply the amount of cargo held by each car in order to protect the engine's profitability while allowing the trains to be shortened to where it properly fits the game
03:01:41 <Odin> I've ended up making 14 and 21 car trains to be pulled by some pretty little locomotives
03:03:02 <Odin> Initially it just makes it accelerate a little slower, but when it gets to a point where the train has to be shortened it does't take long for profitability to be impossible
04:09:12 *** kamnet|AFK has joined #openttd
04:09:33 *** kamnet|AFK is now known as kamnet
04:18:38 <Flygon> I still reckon a mode to reduce the rate of acceleration for everything in the game'd be neat, independant of weight/hills ect
04:18:46 <Flygon> As in, literally slow down the game
04:19:52 <Flygon> Because some pax trains I get accelerate ludicrously fast for what they have <_>
04:31:21 *** glevans2 has joined #openttd
04:47:10 <Odin> I end up runing the Lima Shay from NARS for everything except passenger and trunk line service
04:47:39 <Odin> All the short line freight routes, the shay engine pulls a stupidly long train so easily and is super cheap to operate
04:49:31 <Odin> Trunk lines I usually run the 2-10-4 Texas, the 2-8-8-2 Mallet, or the 2-6-6-4 Challenger
04:49:52 <Odin> and I basically can't actually load down any of these, the trains become impossible to handle in length
04:52:51 <Odin> Thing is though, its basically impossible for these big engines to be profitable without having enormously long trains that are difficult to work with in-game
04:53:06 <Odin> If the freight multiplier could hang more tonnage off the drawbar without killing profitability, it would make them easier to use
06:56:17 *** Eddi|zuHause has joined #openttd
08:49:26 *** kamnet_ has joined #openttd
08:49:38 *** kamnet_ is now known as kamnet
08:56:25 *** Eddi|zuHause2 has joined #openttd
09:12:02 *** Celestar has joined #openttd
09:17:26 *** smoke_fumus has joined #openttd
09:31:53 *** Celestar has joined #openttd
09:35:29 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
10:32:50 *** Celestar has joined #openttd
11:06:50 *** tycoondemon has joined #openttd
11:08:56 *** Celestar has joined #openttd
11:51:14 *** Flygon_ has joined #openttd
11:52:52 *** Alberth has joined #openttd
11:52:52 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
12:05:59 *** Klanticus has joined #openttd
13:31:53 *** Supercheese is now known as Guest3014
13:31:57 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd
13:57:41 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
13:57:49 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: danmack was last seen in #openttd 15 hours, 47 minutes, and 52 seconds ago: <DanMacK> Hey all
13:58:17 <andythenorth> also, is daylength done yet?
14:08:10 <Alberth> people seem to disagree on what daylength actually means :)
14:09:41 * andythenorth was being a naughty
14:09:57 <andythenorth> I don’t hold out much hope for a patch where the fundamentals are so widely misunderstood
14:22:39 <planetmaker> yeah... though it actually only needs making a decision as to what *should* be understood
14:22:49 <planetmaker> And mostly the wanted feature is slower ingame time progression
14:23:08 <planetmaker> Thus adjusting the display of yearly and monthly costs according to the stretch factor probably would do the trick
14:23:35 <Alberth> nah, slower introduction of new vehicles, imho
14:24:06 <andythenorth> multiplier to the vehicle introduction function
14:24:13 <andythenorth> call it ‘speed of technology ladder'
14:24:24 <andythenorth> probably won’t suit the foamers :P
14:24:33 <andythenorth> who are probably the main candidate for daylength
14:24:44 <andythenorth> “I absolutely must be able to see my toy trains in real time"
14:25:11 * andythenorth favours ‘double all introduction dates'
14:25:14 <andythenorth> that would sort it
14:25:31 <andythenorth> *lots* of extra time to wait for a vehicle introduced in 2010
14:25:36 <Alberth> most players pick random newgrfs that are mentioned somewhere, and get newgrfs with way too many trains
14:26:05 <Alberth> then they feel pressured in not being able to use all trains
14:26:52 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd
14:27:37 *** Flygon__ has joined #openttd
14:28:03 <planetmaker> yeah... the giant choice of vehicles gives the impression of too fast
14:28:19 <planetmaker> and it's true, even with default, it's quick in the later years when you have a huge empire
14:28:27 <Alberth> just the days flying by in about 3 seconds already does that
14:29:41 <Alberth> just like displaying a goal in BB gives the pressure to fulfill it, even though nobody says you should, and there is no penalty if you don't
14:30:38 <andythenorth> I am sitting there, thinking ‘wtf, where is new trains?’
14:30:46 <andythenorth> and my ffwd is bust :)
14:31:14 <Alberth> play bigger map, or higher industry density :p
14:31:42 <Alberth> or higher speed of technology ladder :p
14:31:55 <andythenorth> did someone add that feature yet? o_O
14:32:06 * andythenorth is tempted to do it in newgrf, just to prove the point
14:32:13 <Alberth> you didn't add it in IH ?
14:32:21 <andythenorth> not as a parameter
14:32:33 <andythenorth> I could do a date multiplier parameter, but forums would still want daylength :P
14:32:40 <andythenorth> because….eh, who knows
14:33:34 <Alberth> usually I spend waiting time just by watching trains :)
14:33:55 <andythenorth> usually I spend time hoping someone draws better boats :)
14:39:24 <kamnet> I think ChillCore's tweaking of the daylength patch for his patch pack hit the sweet spot for everybody
14:43:15 <andythenorth> did it make the value available to newgrf?
14:43:25 <andythenorth> presumably FIRS needs recoded to handle daylength
14:45:21 *** mczapkie has joined #openttd
14:45:47 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
14:46:41 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> I could do a date multiplier parameter, but forums would still want daylength :P <-- you could tell people to just not read spam mails. or you could install a spam filter.
14:52:43 <mczapkie> may I have a question: is it possible to use company colours for DrawString procedure?
14:53:13 <mczapkie> I see that text colours are slihgtly different than normal colours
14:53:34 <mczapkie> pink and pale green doesn't match
14:54:34 <Odin> <Alberth> then they feel pressured in not being able to use all trains
14:55:00 <Odin> Or they run NARS and its basically impossible to hang the engine's rated load on the drawbar due to train size limits
14:55:31 <Odin> Trying to compensate using the weight multiplier only makes the train unprofitable because it doesn't multiply the profitability to match
14:56:25 <Odin> I end up running till the 1960s using the Shay for short line freight and either the consolidation or 2-10-4 Texas for mainline freight
14:57:00 <Alberth> it's quite possible NARS is the wrong set for you :)
14:57:14 <Odin> Possibly. What other american rail sets are there?
14:58:23 <Odin> The problem I have with NARS is once you get around 1900 even the smallest locos are so powerful that a train long enough to properly load it down is also so long it doesn't fit between towns or in stations
14:58:58 <Alberth> Don't know, mostly all XYZ country newgrfs are broken for me in having too many engines
14:59:28 <Odin> I end up with 2-8-0 Consolidatons pulling 14-21 car trains all over the place, and basically can't even use the 2-8-8-2 Mallet or 2-6-6-2 Challenger because I can't put a long enough train behind them to make them profitable
15:00:02 <Odin> I don't mind having too many engines, its nice to have options. Even though I basically pick out the best pullers for a task and stick to them, like my use of the Lima Shay for short-line freight
15:00:14 <Alberth> there is a "reduce costs" parameter, tried that?
15:00:28 <Odin> That might be the ticket, run that with weight multiplier
15:01:13 <Odin> Ideally I'd like to be able to run the Challenger on a 14-length express freight and have it stay profitable until dieselisation
15:01:37 <Odin> To make that happen, it'd have to be 7-10x weight multiplier and the profitability similarly adjusted
15:02:51 <Alberth> there are also basecost modify newgrfs you can use
15:04:21 <Odin> This is a problem too, but its not openttd's problem at least
15:04:38 <kamnet> With most NewGRF train sets, people aren't playing them because they're trying to run a profitable game. They're playing them because they want trains to represent certain companies or geopolitical regions.
15:05:21 <Odin> I like the american rolling stock in nars, but it also tries to implement realistic costs and pulling power
15:05:25 <Odin> Which is sorta gamebreaking for openttd
15:05:32 <Odin> It was designed for much smaller trains
15:05:43 <kamnet> That's pretty much why Pikka's stopped with NARS and is developing Pineapple Trains. Not only smaller selection, but better balanced to gameplay
15:05:54 <Odin> American engines are gigantic, designed to pull gigantic trains across gigantic empty spaces.
15:06:17 <kamnet> Which OpenTTD isn't optimized for
15:06:18 <Odin> From the stock sets being the British engine lineage, it was probably tuned for that kind of environment. Modest engines pulling reasonable trains in the short hops betwen villages
15:06:28 *** zeknurn has joined #openttd
15:07:50 <kamnet> That makes me wonder something, I know there's a penalty if a train stops in a station that isn't long enough to hold it all, is it just a fixed rate of penalty, or is it a penalty per car over the length?
15:17:44 <Alberth> Odin: OpenTTD is not a simulation, it's a game. Lots of people try to simulate their country in it, but it's just not designed for it
15:18:44 <Alberth> reality is a source of inspiration, and that's it
15:23:06 <planetmaker> Alberth, I agree, but we have a problem there: "OpenTTD is a transport simulation game based upon the popular game Transport..."
15:23:21 <planetmaker> from our own readme. First line of the 'About' section :)
15:23:21 *** JacobD88 has joined #openttd
15:24:33 <Alberth> it simulates transport, that sounds fair
15:25:19 <Alberth> it doesn't say realistic transport nor realistic simulation
15:25:44 <planetmaker> yup. But those are fine semantics hard to argue with non-native speakers (like us :P )
15:26:31 <Alberth> I am fine with changing it to "non-realistic transport simulation game"
15:27:51 <Alberth> a far better solution could be to allow 2 new engines each decade at most, and have 5 newgrfs at most, or so
15:28:47 <planetmaker> and a year later: -Feature: Increase allowed engines per decade to 5
15:28:59 <planetmaker> 30k-party, here we come! :)
15:41:49 <Odin> Yeah. It simulates running a transport network. It does not accurately simulate any particular country or scenario
15:43:31 <Odin> What I'm hoping for though is to be able to run the NARS locos while also at least being profitable, even if the train length is chopped to 1/10th normal due to game limitations
15:43:56 <Odin> It sounds like the operating cost multiplier might be the key piece I needed, make the engines 1/10th the cost to run and pull cargo 10x heavier
15:44:04 <Odin> then the trains woudl be the correct length, but still profitable too
15:44:11 <Odin> *would be a reasonable length
15:47:11 <kamnet> What would probably be more reasonable would be to code a new set and ask Pikka to borrow NARS sprites. :) And, not call it NARS.
15:48:09 <kamnet> PABST = Profitable and Balanced Set of Trains
15:48:47 <Alberth> Odin: you have have pre-defined requirements, and you try to squeeze NARS in it no matter what, even though it clearly doesn't go that way? :)
15:49:22 <Alberth> Pikka sprites are gpl afaik
15:54:06 <andythenorth> pikka sprites are more on the lines of “I don’t care as long as you ask” rather than GPL ;)
15:54:11 <andythenorth> in my experience
15:55:04 <Alberth> fair enough, it's always nice to ask first
15:55:23 <andythenorth> if you hang around long enough, Iron Horse will have one or more US / Canadian rosters
15:55:31 <andythenorth> probably ~2 years away I think
16:33:11 <Odin> Its more a matter of I've been trying to make this work and arrived at the 7-10x multiplier in experimenting
16:33:50 <Odin> Along similar lines, any grfs that add road vehicles before the 1920s? Something along the lines of horse-carts to relay from the train station to the other side of town
16:35:58 <andythenorth> but rather large number of vehicles
16:36:16 <andythenorth> you could try the alpha of Road Hog, it’s downloadable from in-game content
16:36:30 <andythenorth> Road Hog has no horses, but offers vehicles from 1860s
16:36:34 <Odin> I usually pick the ones that I want to use, and set the rest to hidden status to avoid the clutter
16:37:06 <Odin> 1860s would work. I usually start around 1889, since that's when the Lima class C Shay I like is introduced in nars.
17:06:07 *** kamnet2 has joined #openttd
17:12:25 *** shirish has joined #openttd
17:22:44 *** shirish_ has joined #openttd
17:32:08 *** fr0zenst0rm has joined #openttd
17:35:57 *** fr0zenst0rm has joined #openttd
17:37:49 *** mczapkie has joined #openttd
17:44:01 <mczapkie> Despite of topic, may I ask if I can ask a technical question?
17:45:31 <andythenorth> I always ask if I can ask
17:45:37 <mczapkie> what is a meaning of "from" field in settings.ini? I suppose it have nothing to do with setting range
17:45:41 <andythenorth> can I ask if I can ask if I can ask?
17:45:58 <Alberth> mczapkie: that's not even off-topic :)
17:46:29 <Alberth> it's the first savegame version that has the setting
17:47:09 <Alberth> ie savegames with version less than 100 are not expected to have a field you added in savegame number 100 :)
17:47:51 <mczapkie> thanks, I will fix it
17:48:41 <mczapkie> invalid chunk size is related to this?
17:49:31 <Alberth> chunk size is the cumulative size of a part of the savegame, which is of course computed wrong if you expect fields that aren't there
17:49:53 *** roidal_ has joined #openttd
17:49:54 <Alberth> since an old openttd version never wrote that field :)
17:50:54 <Alberth> fix is easy, travel back through time to add the field
17:53:57 <mczapkie> another question, if I may ask :) is it possible to change background of DrawString procedure?
17:55:05 <mczapkie> or it is uniform for whole widget window?
17:55:59 <mczapkie> what I need to do is to distinguish different company vehicle numbers in station window list
17:56:15 <Alberth> strings only draw foreground
17:56:32 <Alberth> you'd have to draw background before drawing the string
17:56:59 *** Progman has joined #openttd
17:58:41 *** TheMask96 has joined #openttd
17:59:08 <Alberth> ie GfxFillRect at the area of the string
18:01:56 <Alberth> if (vscroll_pos != 0) GfxFillRect(left, py - WD_MATRIX_TOP - 1, right, py - WD_MATRIX_TOP, _colour_gradient[COLOUR_GREY][5]); at train_gui.cpp 406 looks like it, but not sure what it does exactly
18:05:06 <mczapkie> above is for dragging, I guess
18:06:21 <mczapkie> but I have no idea, where vehicle list for the certain station is constructed (did not found neither in train_gui nor station_gui)
18:07:53 <Alberth> doesn't matter, a few lines below is a drawstring DrawString(data_left, data_right, py, STR_QUANTITY_N_A, TC_LIGHT_BLUE);
18:08:49 <Alberth> it uses left/right, and py as well
18:09:06 <Alberth> (data_left/right to compensate for RTL languages)
18:10:11 <Alberth> so that's the pattern, draw a background at the area of the string, then draw the string over it
18:11:19 <mczapkie> ok, I understand how this fill rect works (I just responded on question, what it does exactly)
18:12:45 <mczapkie> but my prolem is, that I cannot find where is defined station widget "show all ... which have this station in their shedule" - I cannot even found appropriate string in lang
18:13:55 <mczapkie> yes, I just found it: STR_STATION_VIEW_SCHEDULED_TRAINS_TOOLTIP
18:15:41 <mczapkie> looks bad, if I understand how this widget works
18:15:42 <Alberth> line 789 station_gui uses it
18:17:27 <mczapkie> yes, but I probably must write a child class for this widget
18:17:51 <mczapkie> I need to define separate background or text color for each vehicle
18:18:07 <Alberth> :{BLACK}{TRAIN} <-- that's the little train icon
18:19:13 <Alberth> you need lots of buttons, one for each company, I think
18:20:14 <Alberth> you can override the default render code of a widget
18:21:16 <mczapkie> sorry, I messed up - I dont need to change widget itself, just the window with train list which pop ups
18:23:40 <Alberth> iirc there is a generic list-vehicle thingie
18:24:05 <mczapkie> ShowVehicleListWindow ?
18:24:09 <Alberth> used for buy menu, vehicle lists, and one other thing
18:24:48 <Alberth> ShowXYZ is the code to actually create the window, it doesn't do much but creating a Window object
18:26:34 *** oskari89 has joined #openttd
18:26:53 <Alberth> AllocateWindowDescFront<VehicleListWindow>(&_vehicle_list_train_desc, num); <-- that creates an instance of the VehicleListWindow class
18:27:09 <Alberth> which in turns displays that to the user
18:27:20 *** Celestar has joined #openttd
18:30:22 <mczapkie> thanks for all comments, I will try to make some Infrastructure Sharing Patch fixes
18:30:56 <Alberth> hmm, please don't leave so fast
18:35:03 *** gelignite has joined #openttd
18:48:26 * kamnet scrubs scuff marks from the floor
18:48:27 <Odin> Some people don't understand the joys of idle relay chat
18:48:47 <kamnet> Kids are always in too much of a hurry.
18:51:07 *** mczapkie has joined #openttd
18:52:59 <mczapkie> apologise that I leave so fast, but I have short half decay time of ideas which I just started to understand :)
18:56:22 <Alberth> just wanted to wish you good luck with the patches
18:57:23 <Alberth> and yeah, irc is a very relaxed medium :)
19:00:47 <mczapkie> So I whish pleasant relaxation then :)
19:04:19 <Odin> as he instantly leaves again instead of enjoying the idle time
19:04:30 <Odin> I know ADHD is a thing, but limits...
19:09:46 <Alberth> I guess some people always immediately close an application when they are done with it :)
19:13:41 <Alberth> andythenorth: no iron horse recommendation in FIRS readme?
19:14:08 <andythenorth> FIRS readme is silly
19:14:38 * andythenorth could do something about that one day
19:15:02 <Alberth> you need to contact a FIRS developer to add them, it seems
19:15:08 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
19:15:25 <andythenorth> I believe Alberth is a FIRS devloloper
19:16:48 <Alberth> /me pulls the updates
19:17:20 <andythenorth> you could just update the readme
19:17:30 <andythenorth> and convert the remaining 24 industries...
19:18:44 <Alberth> you won't like my idea of conversion very much, I think
19:22:11 *** fr0zenst0rm has joined #openttd
19:23:58 <Alberth> that'd be the quickest solution
19:25:43 *** fr0zenst0rm has joined #openttd
19:30:38 *** fr0zenst0rm is now known as unex
19:46:50 *** shirish has joined #openttd
20:04:50 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd
20:18:17 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
20:32:39 <Alberth> pushed an update to the readme template
20:36:09 <andythenorth> if I could be inspired to do it, I should combine readme + website content
20:36:15 <andythenorth> I was going to kill most of the readme
20:36:20 <andythenorth> but $someone said it was useful
20:54:43 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd
20:54:43 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir
21:21:01 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has joined #openttd
21:30:31 *** Celestar has joined #openttd
21:33:24 <Wolf01> this time at the gym almost killed me
21:36:23 <Wolf01> yeah, the VPN connection now works!
21:37:02 <Alberth> so 24/7 online at work now?
21:37:03 <Wolf01> sysadmin found he misconfigured the iptables
21:37:15 <frosch123> wireing stuff in the server room does not count as gym
21:37:29 <frosch123> now matter how much you have to twist yourself to reach behind the server
21:37:30 <Wolf01> I'm not the sysadmin :P
21:38:26 <andythenorth> usually, it turns out nobody is the sysadmin
21:40:01 <Wolf01> we have clear figures on our company, you can't mistake
21:40:33 <Wolf01> but hey, I can do a lot more things, don't let anybody know it :P
21:46:50 *** Progman_ has joined #openttd
21:49:17 <Wolf01> I need a suggestion, I have a class which returns 2 different instances of another class, but this class should not be a factory and it should handle the classes passed on the constructor: should I pass the 2 instances of the same class on the constructor?
21:51:35 <Alberth> objects are not very different from eg numbers
21:59:06 *** Progman has joined #openttd
22:03:19 <Wolf01> mmmh, it could be tricky... to instance the second one I need a value which only the main class knows
22:03:46 <Wolf01> huge refactoring ahead
22:06:36 *** thomas002003 has joined #openttd
22:07:36 <Wolf01> mmh, just avoid to construct the child class with some value and use a setter... which opens a lot of more ways to do something weird
22:09:22 <Alberth> I use very few getters and setters
22:09:34 <Alberth> usually public fields will do just fine :)
22:10:02 <andythenorth> don’t you like to fill your classes with _foo ? :P
22:10:09 <andythenorth> and @property declarations?
22:10:22 <andythenorth> just in case somebody, somewhere, tries to read private vars?
22:10:46 <Alberth> I just let them, even in Java
22:11:08 <andythenorth> imagine, they might pass in wrong values!
22:11:13 <andythenorth> and you can’t prevent it!
22:11:25 <andythenorth> what happens if incompetent developers work with your code!
22:11:41 <Wolf01> I started to develop with interfaces, I have interfaces for everything
22:11:41 <Alberth> and Java is broken enough not to have a protected field for derived classes :p
22:12:13 <andythenorth> if we write enough getters / setters, we can write unit tests for all of them!
22:12:18 <andythenorth> provably correct code!
22:12:18 <Alberth> interfaces are such a pain to jump around in the code
22:13:05 <Alberth> so I only use them when a baseclass won't work
22:14:17 <Alberth> Eclipse has a F3 "jump to definition" button, which is totally useless with an interface, as you really don't want the interface itself :p
22:14:17 * andythenorth is not a proper programmer, so never has to consider these things :)
22:14:58 <Alberth> by that standard, I am not a proper programmer either :p
22:15:23 <Alberth> which is of course totally possible
22:15:46 <Wolf01> phpstorm has that too, and works the same way, but I'm used to it
23:06:35 *** andythenorth has left #openttd
23:10:35 *** fr0zenst0rm has joined #openttd
23:11:19 <Odin> Okay, so I know about the weight modifier setting
23:11:31 <Odin> Where is the operating cost setting? The only one I see I already have bottomed out
23:12:02 <Odin> Accounting/Running Costs is set to low
23:58:35 *** DanMacK has joined #openttd
continue to next day ⏵