IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-04-19
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00:08:55 *** Geoff_AK has joined #openttd
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02:55:11 * kamnet|AFK thinks he will research something else.
03:06:10 <kamnet|AFK> Or maybe I should go work on my scenario
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04:18:00 <kamnet|AFK> The bad thing about building a 4096^2 scenario from scratch is that you easily get bored with the monotony of trying to sculpt the landscape
04:18:53 <kamnet|AFK> The current scenario editor is really inadequate for this
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05:25:47 <Flygon_> kamnet: It'd be neat to somehow import real life map somehow...
05:26:03 <Flygon_> Waterways, rocks, trees, heightmap of course, ect...
05:26:06 *** Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
05:26:10 <Flygon> But that'd be really hard
05:26:49 <kamnet|AFK> There's a few ways of doing that now, with some patches.
05:27:06 <kamnet|AFK> and a few outside scripts
05:32:54 <Flygon> Yeah, but is the data available in a single neat package?
05:33:04 <Flygon> I forgot Google Maps is a thing
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06:00:31 <kamnet|AFK> No, it'snot a single, neat package.
06:01:33 <kamnet|AFK> You have to grab the heightmap data from one source, river and water locations from another source, GPS coordinates from a third source, and then use scripts to coordinate all the data together.
06:02:26 <kamnet|AFK> installing and setting up all the software isn't simple either
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06:42:18 * Supercheese should really work on adding that dock to SNO
06:46:10 <Flygon> At least there'll eventually be a guide
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07:28:29 <Flygon> I didn't know there was a rivers tut O_o
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08:08:15 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
08:17:36 <kamnet|AFK> Morning andythenorth!
08:43:06 * andythenorth will have to get out of bed
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08:49:39 <Alberth> RLP (remote liquid protocol) is not yet operational :(
08:49:58 <supermop_> start every day with an aeropress over your mouth when you wake
08:51:51 <andythenorth> my wife used to bring me in tea in bed most days
08:52:03 <andythenorth> now we have beautiful children instead
08:57:50 <kamnet|AFK> Congratulations, you now have minions. Train them. Train them early enough and they'll love it, think it's a fun game!
08:59:28 <andythenorth> 31 / 66 FIRS industries converted
09:03:15 <supermop_> converted to all coffee economy?
09:11:01 <andythenorth> no coffee, no converting
09:16:16 <kamnet|AFK> We will make it strong.... faster.... it is... THE SIX MILLION DOLLAR FIRS.
09:22:29 * andythenorth twiddles with farm cluster spacing
09:22:32 <Supercheese> they now appear at mapgen if you want
09:23:18 <andythenorth> what witchcraft is that?
09:24:11 <andythenorth> oh, that happened :)
09:24:24 <Supercheese> indeed it did, but scant few grfs make use of it
09:24:25 <andythenorth> is there a good objects grf yet? o_O
09:24:40 <Supercheese> I like MariCo, it's nice
09:24:49 <Supercheese> allergic to fruit though
09:24:56 <andythenorth> I used the CHIPS objects grf sometimes
09:25:06 <andythenorth> to build ‘stations’ on corner slopes for harbours
09:25:19 <Supercheese> wait there even was CHIPS objects...?
09:27:24 <Supercheese> I do not recall seeing such
09:29:21 <Supercheese> must have missed that
09:29:47 <Supercheese> therefore terribly obscure
09:33:15 <andythenorth> solves the harbours problem
09:33:23 <andythenorth> shame that station tiles can’t build on corner slopes
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09:38:15 <kamnet|AFK> Wow, I don't know how I managed to miss that one either. Nifty.
09:40:50 <kamnet|AFK> Oh wait I remember it now
09:40:56 <kamnet|AFK> Dunno why I didn't download it
10:02:30 <supermop_> why didnt FLherne put that on bananas
10:04:04 <supermop_> i should wear wetsuit in house to get more use out of it
10:04:33 <supermop_> wear it to surf in summer, to stay warm in cold brick terrace in winter
10:05:44 <supermop_> forgot how hard it is to get into this thing
10:07:25 <Alberth> you really don't use it enough :p
10:09:02 <supermop_> invariable effect of putting on a garment that takes 90 seconds to take off
10:11:37 <andythenorth> don’t you just piss in the suit?
10:11:42 <andythenorth> I thought that was how they worked?
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10:14:13 <nanoha-chan> hey is it possible that you can get an dedicated openttd server to peroidically say things in the chat?
10:15:58 <supermop_> andythenorth: i think that works better in ocean than in one's house
10:16:10 <andythenorth> people piss in their clothes in my house all the time
10:17:00 <supermop_> was one of the reasons i decided to buy my own instead of renting them
10:18:55 <supermop_> is it a bad idea to build computers into custom fixture rather than just having a cabinet with a computer sitting in it?
10:19:57 <Alberth> depends on how often you want to change something in it?
10:21:05 <Alberth> nanoha-chan: should be possible, I think it's called admin port, where you can attach openttd to a chat, have logging running along, and other admin-ish things you may want to do
10:21:15 <andythenorth> mine is built into a custom fixture
10:21:23 <andythenorth> it’s about 1cm thick, and has the keyboard on top
10:21:26 <andythenorth> and a charging port
10:21:34 <andythenorth> and a special hinged lid containing the screen
10:22:28 <supermop_> its for 4-8 workstations that will be public facing
10:23:34 <supermop_> i feel they will overheat in a cabinet, a special perforated metal portion of the fixture could have a locking lid and house the motherboars
10:23:57 <supermop_> oh man mother boars would be way better than computers
10:25:03 <supermop_> could just have the standoffs for the board fabricated as part of the box
10:26:08 <supermop_> alberth maybe change graphics cards once a year, and replace psu whenever it dies
10:26:53 <Alberth> graphics cards have that short life span? :o
10:27:12 <supermop_> in case they need to be upgraded
10:27:30 <supermop_> idk how long psu will last
10:27:48 <Alberth> k, I buy a new comnputer every 6-8 years, and never upgrade anything :)
10:27:52 <supermop_> but given 8 stations i assume the first will fail soon and the last will never fail
10:28:04 <kamnet|AFK> It looks nice and it's a pain in the ass to work on and eventually replace.
10:28:43 <supermop_> well hopefully nothing fails
10:29:26 <supermop_> but if there were little doors that could regularly be opened for dust to be cleaned out that would help
10:29:51 <supermop_> just need it some public users do not have access to the stuff
10:30:20 <kamnet|AFK> Supercheese, I actually fixed those docks a little, they might line up better than what Quast just pointed out
10:31:19 <supermop_> ok taking off wetsuit, too warm
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10:34:00 <greogrycu> Is anyone aware of a project/mod/script that allows trains to place signals for you? I'm thinking of a situation where as a train travells along my mainline, it places a signal every 3 squares
10:39:12 <andythenorth> computers are disposable
10:39:25 <andythenorth> buy a new one every year or so, sell the old one
10:40:04 <kamnet|AFK> If I could afford them, I would.
10:42:20 <kamnet|AFK> I built my desktop in 2008, using a case I got free after rebate, and leftover RAM and monitor from my previous PC, and I think i recycled the video card too
10:42:21 <andythenorth> mine would sell used for £1000-£1200, new one would be £1500-1£1600
10:42:58 <andythenorth> otoh andythenorth spends > 12 hours a day with this computer, of which > 10 hours are usually work
10:43:32 <andythenorth> so £0.22 an our or so to use it for work
10:44:30 <kamnet|AFK> I keep meaning to take a bunch of old dumb terminals I bought at auction a decade ago to a recycler to see how much the gold and silver on the boards are worth
10:44:46 <Alberth> greogrycu: control-drag a signal?
10:44:49 <andythenorth> in the UK, it would be ‘pay somebody to take them away’ usually
10:45:12 <greogrycu> But I then need to manually follow the mainline to the end
10:45:38 <greogrycu> I mean, an actual train, or soemthing, that you can send out, and it will plot signals along the line for you
10:45:41 <Alberth> nah, just 1 tile in the right direction is sufficient
10:45:56 <greogrycu> So, how do I do it around corners?
10:46:32 <andythenorth> hmm industry.py is ~764 lines. It’s becoming a bit of a god module
10:46:42 <andythenorth> but everything in one file, convenient for ‘search'
10:47:12 * andythenorth wonders if Industry and IndustryTile should be split
10:47:48 <supermop_> it does corners automatically greogrycu
10:48:00 <kamnet|AFK> Well in the 80s when these PCs were built, gold and silver was cheap they used loads of it. Now those recyclers will pay you well when gold and silver is selling for thousands of dollars an ounce.
10:49:36 <supermop_> should be safe to make door to a shed 2 heightlevels tall? no one is making trains taller than about 1.5 heightlevels?
10:50:03 <greogrycu> Ahh sweet, the indicator is a little misleading
10:50:04 <andythenorth> we should define everything in minecraft units
10:51:57 <Alberth> please update the wiki
10:52:14 <Alberth> it's clearly not good enough :)
10:52:19 <greogrycu> How do I do a really long section? Is there some way to scroll while dragging?
10:53:18 <Alberth> what part about "1 tile in the right direction is sufficient" was unclear?
10:54:04 <DorpsGek> Alberth: 0.545454545455
10:54:29 <Alberth> dorpsgek isn't sure whether it's a 4 or a 5 :)
10:54:31 <andythenorth> yeah the last 13 will likely take me a few months :P
10:54:57 <andythenorth> there are some where I have opened the file
10:55:01 <andythenorth> then closed it again quickly
10:55:01 <Rubidium> Alberth: apparantly it is, since it ended it with a 5... but the real question is... does that number end with a 4 or a 5 ;)
10:55:40 <andythenorth> what is the biggest number?
10:55:43 <andythenorth> I keep being asked
10:56:54 <andythenorth> I could set him counting
10:57:04 <Alberth> but surely he has an idea what a big number is?
10:57:45 <supermop_> how about a 5m tall door
10:57:56 <supermop_> that should be plenty for anybody?
10:58:01 <Alberth> ie if he says 19, 19 it is :)
10:58:36 <Alberth> supermop_: and put the knob at 2.5m ?
10:59:04 <supermop_> well if the train can reach the know it's fine
10:59:41 <Rubidium> andythenorth: think about your biggest number, then write that biggest number followed by that amount of up arrows and then the biggest number again (recursively) ;)
11:00:08 <andythenorth> I tried explaining in terms of infinity
11:00:16 <andythenorth> but we broke maths
11:00:58 <andythenorth> ha ha power towers
11:02:45 <andythenorth> due to reasons, players can no longer build dairy farms wherever they want
11:02:47 <Rubidium> and it exploded pretty quickly. 2 up-arrow up-arrow 5 is about 2*10^19728
11:13:24 <greogrycu> Alberth: No, you were clear, sorry I misread
11:14:12 <Alberth> wiki is somewhat misleading in dragging the entire length
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11:51:28 <andythenorth> some farms are now harder for players to build
11:51:37 <andythenorth> collateral damage
11:54:05 <andythenorth> how far would you transport cargos like grain etc for processing?
11:54:19 <andythenorth> sometimes the processors are a *long* way from the sources
11:57:04 <Alberth> wherever the grain mill is?
11:58:57 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: for a while, grahams number held the world record for the largest constructively used number
12:16:59 * andythenorth considers enforcing max distance from source to processor
12:21:59 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that is totally stupid
12:24:05 <Eddi|zuHause> if you don't want to travel that far, play smaller maps
12:25:29 <andythenorth> my thinking is, why build a sugarcane mill miles from sugarcane farms?
12:25:36 <andythenorth> it looks weird to have a map like that
12:25:59 <Eddi|zuHause> you want to force your own play style upon others, no matter what?
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12:35:36 <V453000> interesting idea andy :D
12:35:51 <V453000> probably bad on all fronts though
12:36:04 <V453000> transporting small distances already is more efficient in terms of amount of cargo delivered
12:36:12 <V453000> systematically less interesting, but more efficient
12:54:03 <andythenorth> I think it’s likely bad
12:54:12 <kamnet|AFK> There shoud probably be a minimum distance, but not a maximum
12:54:20 <andythenorth> but it could be done as, say, 50% of map size
12:56:30 <kamnet|AFK> If you wanted to enforce it, then do so on mapgen. If I decide later I want ones further out, I should be able to do so
12:56:55 <andythenorth> most restrictions in FIRS can be ignored by player
12:57:06 <andythenorth> with the exception of farms refusing snow / desert
12:57:38 <kamnet|AFK> It'll be interesting to see how that works in my scenario, then
12:58:29 <kamnet|AFK> Building scenario with height level of 60. I'll be using OpenGFX+ Landscape, setting summer snow level to 40 and then winter at 0.
12:59:01 <kamnet|AFK> but I'll be setting FIRS farms between 0 and 40 before I enable the winter level of snow
13:00:24 *** kamnet|AFK is now known as kamnet
13:00:48 <supermop_> you can still transport to a further mill
13:01:45 <supermop_> but if i am an industrialist who wants to build a mill, i'd probably at least try to locate it close to the sugar
13:03:08 <andythenorth> actually, isn’t the “don’t force play style” argument bogus? o_O
13:03:19 <andythenorth> FIRS already has opinions on that, by enforcing clustering
13:06:00 <supermop_> having a mill 100 tiles away does not force a player to use that instead of a different mill 200 tiles away
13:06:05 <V453000> yeti also forces you to have a fluent network :)
13:07:04 * andythenorth ignores max distance for now
13:07:13 <andythenorth> although some industries were already using it, it turns out
13:07:18 <andythenorth> Iron Works, for some reason
13:07:29 <andythenorth> and Fishing Harbours, because ships are slow
13:07:30 <supermop_> brick sheds will now have 4 arches on the side rather than 3
13:08:23 <supermop_> kind of makes it look like a church though
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13:37:57 <supermop_> where do you guys paste images just to show something impromtu?
13:38:00 *** kamnet is now known as kamnet|AFK
13:39:56 <V453000> andy uses devzone files often
13:40:03 <frosch123> andy uses devzone files
13:52:25 <frosch123> any idea about fs#6283?
13:52:35 <frosch123> apparently there are multiple ways to break tram lines
13:52:52 <frosch123> because they are auto-extended to complete tiles
13:53:21 <frosch123> is it wise to fix these cases? or does it just result in annoyance?
13:54:14 *** kamnet|AFK is now known as kamnet
13:55:07 <supermop_> what the hell is snaggy
13:55:51 <supermop_> needs more relief on the front wall
13:56:40 <supermop_> what is wrong with tram lines now?
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14:00:29 <Alberth> frosch123: it's not really different from a road with a bend in it, is it?
14:00:48 <frosch123> road vehicles do not care
14:01:05 <frosch123> trams can only reverse on single-track-bit tiles
14:01:09 <frosch123> otherwise they are stuck
14:01:10 <Alberth> you cannot add track on them
14:02:11 <frosch123> this weirdness only exists for trams
14:02:39 *** kamnet_ is now known as kamnet
14:02:40 <Alberth> I mean, just forbid laying track at such tiles
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14:04:27 <Alberth> although from a safety point of view, it would be nice if the tram would not become fully stuck
14:05:26 <Alberth> perhaps by pressing 'reverse' in its vehicle window?
14:05:44 <supermop_> i think that may actually work
14:05:49 <frosch123> i believe that is already the case
14:06:17 <supermop_> you can get trams to reverse in places where they shouldn't be able to by hitting the reverse button
14:07:27 <frosch123> so, all competitor construction should behave on single-tram tiles like with bends
14:07:34 <frosch123> basicaly you cannot place anything on them
14:07:39 <frosch123> no rail tracks, no road stops
14:08:00 <frosch123> but nothing that requires a full tram tile
14:08:50 <frosch123> otoh. for your own tram tiles we can allow auto-completion in all cases, just to avoid annoynig messages
14:08:57 <frosch123> you have to fix the tram separately then
14:09:55 <andythenorth> eh road-tram-rail crossings are a headache
14:10:01 * andythenorth had a patch for those :P
14:10:33 <Alberth> we don't auto-fix bendy company-owned roads either :)
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14:11:23 <frosch123> yes, but rv do not even enter those tiles
14:11:37 <frosch123> so, it really does not matter
14:12:33 <frosch123> single road bits are either removed or auto-completed
14:13:41 * andythenorth wonders if the FIRS fairy will finish it while I’m gone
14:16:40 <Alberth> auto-fixing road would simplify track-laying over own road
14:16:50 <Alberth> although I never do that myself :)
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15:51:36 * andythenorth is getting bored now
16:05:12 <Alberth> new BB goal: Convert a FIRS industry
16:05:44 <Alberth> you can draw a random start letter out of a hat to pick the industry
16:13:19 <andythenorth> I could probably write a code generator to convert them?
17:00:19 <Alberth> you already have one, he's called andy
17:16:26 <V453000> what are you even doing anyway
17:16:36 <V453000> replacing a template with template?
17:17:22 <andythenorth> killing about 5000 lines of code
17:17:28 <andythenorth> some of which turns out to be buggy
17:17:48 <andythenorth> cutting the number of industry templates from 66 (1 per industry) to about 9
17:18:48 <andythenorth> also templating the animation
17:22:56 <andythenorth> also any industry can be compiled individually
17:23:02 <andythenorth> takes about 17s from clean repo
17:23:12 <andythenorth> instead of >2 minutes
17:23:52 <V453000> me does not mind having considerably higher compile times :P
17:25:33 <andythenorth> also old templates don’t support economies fully, some annoying limitations
17:26:01 <andythenorth> also running out of industry IDs, new system will fix that
17:28:19 <V453000> the problems with large projects, system :D
17:28:48 <andythenorth> also every industry has 10s of switches currently
17:28:53 <andythenorth> most of which are identical
17:29:11 <andythenorth> I’ll switch them to shared switches
17:29:18 <andythenorth> should be faster compile
17:29:41 <andythenorth> strange thing is, pushing the limits makes a lot of the code actually simpler
17:46:52 <Alberth> yeah, the trick is usually to make a sufficiently generic case where everything fits in, in a neat and simple way
17:47:35 <Alberth> unfortunately, it takes time to recognize you have too much special edge case stuff :)
17:49:10 <andythenorth> it’s much nicer to make it common later not earlier
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17:59:20 <tacsipacsi> Hi! Who can rename me from "tacsipacsi" to "Tacsipacsi"? It can be done with the Renameuser extension[1] (it says that it bundled with MediaWiki, probably just turned off?) or directly in database.
18:03:02 <Alberth> please send a request to info@openttd.org
18:04:38 <DorpsGek> Alberth: 0.636363636364
18:05:48 <andythenorth> the rest are…hard
18:05:51 <andythenorth> done all the easy ones
18:08:47 <andythenorth> I’ll just cheat a bit
18:09:01 <andythenorth> ‘refactor_this_steel_mill.pypnml’
18:09:35 <andythenorth> about 4 of them will be solved by new sprites, instead of reusing base set sprites
18:09:49 <andythenorth> conveniently Dan drew the sprites ages ago
18:10:58 <Alberth> baseset sprites always looked a bit out of place, probably because I associate them with the default industry set
18:13:09 <andythenorth> also they are jarringly ogfx, if you use ogfx
18:13:55 <Alberth> zbase is even more horribly different :)
18:15:28 <V453000> I agree, a newgrf should replace everything of the sort :P
18:16:43 * andythenorth ventures back to the safe land of original base set
18:16:51 <andythenorth> a brief tour of alternatives
18:17:07 <andythenorth> it is _hard_ to make a full base set imho
18:18:35 <Alberth> you don't want to make it a goal
18:18:52 <Alberth> make nice sprites with newgrfs
18:19:05 <Alberth> and one day find you have pretty much everything
18:19:11 <V453000> it is hard to make a full base set. :)
18:19:44 <V453000> and yes, though I personally prefer the approach of making a no-functionality newGRF, turning it to a base set eventually
18:19:46 <Eddi|zuHause> <Alberth> almost 2/3 <-- and now for the other 2/3...
18:20:48 <Alberth> I wonder how much there is left to do when at 95% :p
18:51:58 <andythenorth> the remaining 24 need about 14 separate templates
18:52:04 <andythenorth> the previous 42 use 3 templates
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19:45:27 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27240 trunk/src/lang/lithuanian.txt (2015-04-19 19:45:18 +0200 )
19:45:28 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
19:45:29 <DorpsGek> lithuanian - 31 changes by Stabilitronas
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21:12:42 <andythenorth> Squid compile is super-fast :o
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22:23:20 <Fadi> Is this a good place to ask a question related to your bug tracker that uses flyspray
22:29:03 <Fadi> Like is there a way to echo the flyspray feed to an irc channel? If so do you guys do that and is that code like open to everyone or is it off limits
22:33:28 <Eddi|zuHause> any of your random stock bots that can read rss?
22:34:03 <Rubidium> not out of the box, we don't do it, but it is possible
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23:47:09 <Supercheese> Man, every time, I always forget that I run a patched version and my OTTD is not the same OTTD that every user plays -_-
23:47:22 <Supercheese> so the new docks are fubar
23:53:33 <Supercheese> blah, how to fix...
continue to next day ⏵
