IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-04-16
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05:12:29 <kamnet> I am dead. I am dead. I am Dead. I have returned to the land of the living. I am a zombie. I am a zombie. I am a zombie.
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08:23:57 <andythenorth> kamnet: does the WIRE grf add anything to gameplay?
08:24:04 <andythenorth> I have been considering something similar
08:27:06 <kamnet> No I don't think it really does. Its just something else to transport.
08:27:29 <andythenorth> power plant -> power -> town
08:27:37 <kamnet> In WIRES the power plants accept coal, but AFAICT doesn't require them in order to generate electriccity.
08:27:42 <andythenorth> but I wouldn’t want to tie it to electricity
08:27:55 <andythenorth> gas is also valid
08:28:06 <kamnet> steam generated from the recycling centers
08:28:50 <andythenorth> they have a chimney
08:29:00 <andythenorth> original FIRS design had an incinerator for waste
08:29:29 <andythenorth> ‘power’ would need a whole new transport type, hacked on trains
08:29:34 <andythenorth> so it’s a lot of work for minimal result
08:29:36 <kamnet> I always thought the recycling center also looked like a waste incerator too
08:30:01 <kamnet> Yeah, especially if some AI is just going to try to transport it all using lorries.
08:30:27 <andythenorth> for no particular reason
08:33:05 <supermop> i wouldn't bother with power until there is a non-railtype means of transporting it
08:33:37 <supermop> or until there is a way for power to be meaningful without being transported
08:35:29 <kamnet> City Growth gamescripts could require it, just like food and water.
08:36:08 <supermop> currently they only work by recording what is delivered
08:36:41 <supermop> so either all coal delivered to town counts regardless of where, or you'd need to 'deliver' power
08:36:42 <andythenorth> there is a town control newgrf spec
08:36:52 <andythenorth> which afaik nobody is using meaningfully
08:37:14 <supermop> would be better for town to just check if nearby powerplant is being supplied
08:37:42 <supermop> do not even need to verify how well it is being supplied
08:38:18 <supermop> really a well supplied steel mill should grow town too though - more jobs, needs more workers
08:39:01 <supermop> if some industries could have a flag for if they are 'active' or not, and some of them then pass that on to nearby towns
08:39:11 <kamnet> I think a bigger game-change improvement for OpenTTD would be more industries that requires passengers to operate.
08:39:59 <supermop> well you could probably build a steel mill today that only requires a coouple gys o run, rather than thousands
08:40:28 <kamnet> Perhaps that would be even better than farm/industry supplies.
08:40:46 <supermop> in many areas, if there is no transit to the industry, workers will just drive
08:41:03 <supermop> and in the 19th C the workers just lived next to the factory and walked
08:42:10 <supermop> sure you could say that better transit to the industry is a perk, which allows the industry to attract workers at a lower wage, which leaves more money for operating the industry
08:42:22 <supermop> but then you are down the rabbit hole
08:43:06 <andythenorth> I thought YETI had workers covered?
08:43:11 <supermop> and are confronted with arguements of, how can this steel mill afford to keep buying 10,000 tons of ore every month
08:43:21 <kamnet> I'm just thinking about how many players complain that moving cargo is less interesting than moving passengers.
08:44:14 <kamnet> Plenty enough that completely ignore cargo.
08:44:24 <supermop> i prefer to focus on passengers, but i have never heard anyone else say that
08:44:27 <kamnet> Maybe it's jsut redditors. :D
08:45:45 <kamnet> But I"m thinking, hey, cargodist wants you to take passengers from city to nearby industry. Now that you spent all that money building a rail/bus stop to get them there and back, double-up on your utilization and start moving the output from the industry back.
08:46:43 <andythenorth> and consider themselves grateful
08:47:03 <supermop> i mean i can see it more as a disincentive to steelmills out in the middle of nowhere
08:47:29 <supermop> but a passenger train to a remote factory makes even less sense
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08:48:08 <supermop> we have awoken the beast
08:48:45 <kamnet> Still, other than just being neat eyecandy and something else to shift around, I don't see power being something particularly useful to OpenTTD in its current state.
08:49:36 <kamnet> Although it would be neat if Supercheese just fixed the issue with electricity being shipped by non-WIRES vehicles.
08:50:40 <Supercheese> I think I posted the sources
08:51:15 <supermop> electricity, gas, water should just move on its own via unseen infrastructure
08:51:31 <supermop> until such time as we can have conveyors, pipes, etc
08:51:40 <Supercheese> agh didn't post 'em
08:52:04 <supermop> best use for electricity is to allow aluminum plant to work
08:53:47 <kamnet> Yep, that wouldd be a good use
08:53:59 <Supercheese> you can already use the PIPE grf for water eh
09:20:18 * andythenorth has milk pipelines in current game
09:20:28 <supermop> i should model some van molyvan buildings
09:21:00 <supermop> could fit into a brutalist/tropic modern/metabolist/ or SEA set
09:26:25 <andythenorth> you should model a range of ships and output them to 8bpp
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09:29:15 <supermop> its a cool building, both the original and the current ad hoc state
09:29:27 <supermop> isn't pikka doing ships?
09:29:42 <supermop> didn't you also do ships? do we need more ships?
09:29:59 <V453000> I will do a couple of shits once I need them for rawr
09:31:33 <andythenorth> the ships we have are lame
09:31:39 <andythenorth> we are binning Squid
09:31:41 <andythenorth> and starting again
09:31:59 <V453000> the 4 rawr ships will have no competition
09:32:22 <supermop> why not do what pikkas doing, just a small medium and large ship
09:32:35 <andythenorth> pikka will get bored of that and add more :)
09:33:04 <andythenorth> really stripped down rosters are not, in fact, fun
09:33:17 <supermop> wont boat hulls in 8bpp just look the same as ships
09:34:12 <andythenorth> supermop these ones will go to 11
09:34:21 <supermop> 32bpp needs to much rust and shit all over the boat
09:35:07 <V453000> rust is easy to make and adds a TON of beauty quickly
09:37:35 <supermop> i don't really know much about boats
09:38:11 <supermop> boat neck jumper with navy stripes
09:39:09 <supermop> also don't give a shit about steam....
09:39:18 <V453000> I dont know fuck about boats either, but them being friendly with rust means they are easy to model and make nice looking
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10:14:48 <supermop> need to render mlss sheds
10:15:52 <supermop> maybe i'll use revit
10:21:16 <V453000> just use a normal graphics 3D program :P
10:23:33 <V453000> tldr not enough pictures
10:32:52 <supermop> really hope dont have to live in greenpoint when i go back
10:33:08 <supermop> not commuting is best part of living in nyc
10:33:25 <supermop> hopefully chinatown will still be cheap as it was when i left
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10:42:20 <kamnet> That was a good article, supermop.
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11:19:39 <kamnet> Hey Pikka, since you're here and I'm thinking about it, where can I find your template for planes?
11:21:20 <Pikka> I have a template for planes?
11:23:31 <kamnet> early pages of WS development
11:24:05 <kamnet> Discussion on why they didn't just roll their work into planeset, or just become AV8+.
11:24:20 <supermop> live in melbourne now
11:25:07 <Pikka> well, I provided the greyscales for the initial aircraft for WAS, perhaps they're referring to those
11:28:25 <supermop> before that was new york, before that st louis, before that columbus
11:29:04 <supermop> i think you'll have to model/render the seaplanes kamnet
11:29:34 <Supercheese> well, is there a general render template?
11:29:48 <Supercheese> i.e. by how many degrees are planes inclined when climbing/landing/etc
11:29:53 <kamnet> They might be. I might have read it wrong too.
11:32:09 <supermop> could probably make up angles
11:32:10 <Pikka> I could tell you those numbers, certainly
11:32:19 <Pikka> but it's dinner time now, bbs :)
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12:02:15 <andythenorth> power power power plants
12:03:52 <supermop> but only wind, hydro, and other plants that would be utterly boring to interact with as a player
12:04:13 <supermop> deliver turbine blades to turbine
12:04:45 <supermop> stockpile comsumed 1 blade every 15 years
12:05:06 <kamnet> Hydro power plants. I've got NewGRF for that!
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12:05:58 <kamnet> Those graphics are quite horrible, actually.
12:07:35 <supermop> bootstrap plant by divering heavy equipment, turbines, boilers, generators, reactor vessels
12:07:43 <supermop> then never deliver again
12:07:52 <supermop> or not for 40 years or so
12:08:22 <supermop> off to get dinner myself
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12:19:32 * andythenorth has been considering ‘unlock regions of the map’ GameScripts
12:19:41 <andythenorth> ‘provide power’ could be an unlock
12:19:57 <andythenorth> a GS that founds towns
12:20:00 <andythenorth> you start with one town
12:20:03 <andythenorth> no power, no town
12:20:13 <andythenorth> it would need to make some fragile assumptions about the industry newgrf
12:23:29 <kamnet> Everybody talking about getting dinner and I've not even had breakfast yet
12:25:01 <Pikka> fwiw aircraft in av8 climb at 20 degrees, Supercheese
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12:27:59 <Pikka> "Mr Coe said this did not phase the Canberra Liberals."
12:28:05 <Pikka> journalism is officially dead
12:29:06 <andythenorth> ah your government and your journalists
12:29:35 <andythenorth> also power plants
12:30:06 <planetmaker> which makes compilation fail
12:30:35 <Pikka> they're very traditional, which FIRS for the most part is not
12:31:14 <Pikka> and yes, my journalists who can't spell faze.
12:32:01 <kamnet> perhaps they meant phased, as in transitioning from one state of existence to another?
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12:33:08 <kamnet> if the Canbera Liberals are still here, then indeed they were not phased at all!
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12:38:33 <andythenorth> planetmaker: that’s a boo boo
12:51:20 * andythenorth wonders why it was tripping up, it’s python 3, default encoding is assumed to be utf-8
12:52:21 <planetmaker> I wonder about that, too. But sometimes OSX uses some other fancy encodings unique to OSX
12:53:07 <andythenorth> I had a random unicode char that looked like a mis-type
12:53:39 * andythenorth doesn’t know if that’s utf-8 or not
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13:09:39 <supermop> power unlock sounds good
13:28:03 <andythenorth> Pikka: so many arrows :o
13:28:27 <andythenorth> no pineapple cargo?
13:29:08 <planetmaker> hm... fruits... depicted as yeti-sized pineapples on flatbed wagons :)
13:29:17 <andythenorth> forget climate variations, they’re tedious :P
13:29:27 <Pikka> I have forgotten climate variations
13:29:40 <Pikka> except water, because of game mechanics
13:29:58 <Pikka> the olde towns-in-desert-won't-grow-without-it
13:30:53 <Pikka> also, forget economies. why draw and code industries you're not going to play with? :)
13:31:09 <andythenorth> I play more than one game of OpenTTD per year :P
13:31:28 <Pikka> but surely one economy is the best? ;)
13:32:07 <Pikka> put the good bits of the others into that, get rid of the bad bits. Now you have the bestest economy and no need for any others.
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13:32:18 <planetmaker> Pikka, the industry newgrf can define another cargo to fulfil water's purpose
13:32:25 <andythenorth> economies solve ‘trying to make the perfect balance’
13:32:46 <Pikka> I know that planetmaker. But that doesn't solve tropic being different. :)
13:32:54 <Pikka> just adding water is the simplest solution.
13:33:20 <andythenorth> “just add water"
13:33:25 <andythenorth> "for delicious cookies”
13:33:53 <planetmaker> though I find water a bit strange cargo for a train game
13:34:15 <Pikka> maybe I'll put water supplies in all climates and make food processing plants accept it. as a homage to N3V. :)
13:35:15 <Pikka> the erstwhile Auran, developers of Trainz
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13:36:12 <andythenorth> Pikka: it looks…all fine
13:36:15 <andythenorth> but not very pikka-ish
13:36:28 <Pikka> the COO originally made his money from a bottled water company called neverfail, which is where the new name comes from.
13:36:41 <Pikka> not very pikkaish? it's mostly TaI :P
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13:41:30 <Pikka> oh, andy, I've also rethought having one truck per generation and just relying on refit... I'm back to seperate box, livestock, flat, hopper and tanker trucks :)
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13:49:53 <supermop> trucks are boring so it's a pain to have too many of them
13:50:37 <supermop> why do brickworks take gasoline?
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13:51:35 <supermop> our family's brickyard used wood then coal
13:51:46 <Pikka> well, they can run on fuel oil. or gas.
13:52:01 <Pikka> and there's already two destinations for coal, and only a dump for fuel oil. :)
13:52:24 <andythenorth> Pikka: I am +1 to your truck choices
13:52:31 <supermop> refineries should make more than two products, but i guess that's not feasible
13:52:37 <andythenorth> ‘one truck and refit’ is so….logical :(
13:52:42 <andythenorth> logical does not fun make
13:52:56 <supermop> petrol could be tar or asphalt or whatever
13:52:58 <Pikka> also doesn't make for as many pretty variations :)
13:53:09 <Pikka> but where does it go, supermop?
13:53:18 <andythenorth> for economies without batshit number of cargos
13:53:26 <andythenorth> lots of trucks are one-click-build, no refit
13:53:52 <Pikka> I've got the oil refinery producing 3 cargos, good point ;)
13:54:05 <supermop> i don't know i guess it'd be bdmt in firs
13:54:05 <andythenorth> use random cargos cb?
13:54:12 * andythenorth just removed random cargos in FIRS
13:54:20 <supermop> so just goods in this, which is pointles...?
13:54:42 <Pikka> I could just combine plastic and rfpr, which is the 3rd cargo I just added. :)
13:54:46 <andythenorth> ports make it easy to fix gameplay imbalance
13:54:48 <supermop> fine chemicals refinery separate
13:55:00 <Pikka> I'll just call it all rfpr then, to both factories :)
13:55:02 <andythenorth> plastic is rfpr, or mnsp
13:55:14 <supermop> one makes heavy oil shit and gasoline, other makes chemicals and... other chemicals?
13:55:47 <Pikka> nope, one refinery, makes fuel and refined
13:56:01 <Pikka> two factories, one makes goods and one makes fm/en supplies :)
13:56:04 <supermop> andythenorth should add pubs to firs that produce empties
13:56:12 <andythenorth> FUEL is a missing cargo
13:56:16 <andythenorth> could be abused for much things
13:56:20 <andythenorth> FIRS should have FUEL
13:56:27 <andythenorth> I know, petrol :(
13:56:45 <andythenorth> but it got changed :P
13:56:52 <andythenorth> Pikka: also huzzah, ships!
13:57:01 <andythenorth> me and Dan have decided Squid is Shit
13:57:01 <Pikka> that's what you get for open-sourcing your translations :)
13:58:59 <Pikka> am I allowed to call "refined products" "chemicals"?
13:59:36 <Pikka> factory accepts chemicals, steel and lumber
13:59:43 <Pikka> supply factory accepts chemicals, steel and goods
13:59:58 <Pikka> that's going to trip people up when they try and deliver lumber to the supply factory :D
14:00:02 <andythenorth> I went rogue in tropic
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14:01:13 <Pikka> I reeeeeeeeeeally want to use JAVA but it doesn't really fit. I'll just have to do a coffee variation on the fruit plantation.
14:01:34 <Pikka> JAVA would be good for toyland though, mugs on a flatbed.
14:01:57 <andythenorth> apparently the second most valuable commidity in the developing world
14:02:05 <andythenorth> whatever that means
14:02:15 <Pikka> it's particularly fun since its accepting industry returns farm supplies :)
14:02:44 <supermop> the problem with ports, is that the max out too easily
14:03:22 <supermop> if i have a cluster of coffee plantations, just one of them will quickly push the trading post to gung ho
14:03:44 <supermop> then, i can supply the rest with supplies too but whats the point
14:04:19 <Pikka> getting the trading post gung ho is not the point, exporting maximum coffee is!
14:04:57 <supermop> i am incentivized to build a bunch of trading posts near each other
14:05:18 <Pikka> sounds "realistic" to me
14:05:46 <supermop> and then what the hell do i do with so many supplies?
14:06:06 <andythenorth> watch them annoyingly build up at stations
14:06:25 <andythenorth> mostly wonder why cdist assigns 5,000 crates to one of the 9 routes you have at a port?
14:06:31 <andythenorth> whilst starving the other routes?
14:06:48 <supermop> i usually can get around that with timetabing
14:07:01 <andythenorth> you can’t even collect the 5,000 crates because there is a line of trucks waiting for the other routes to be allocated one crate per month
14:07:18 <supermop> easiest to have each farm take a truck every 10 days or so, then they all get an ok amount
14:07:35 <supermop> but extra crates do tend to lump towards the first connected farm
14:07:38 <andythenorth> only if if cdist assigns it
14:07:51 <andythenorth> Pikka: slag is interesting
14:07:54 <andythenorth> been wondering about that
14:08:05 <supermop> well if no trucks are full load, all of them are stay 10 then leave its ok
14:08:17 <andythenorth> powder ash and kiln cement
14:08:18 <supermop> just dont connect one farm then wait years to do the next
14:08:25 <andythenorth> eh, that is my error
14:08:56 <supermop> it's very deterministic
14:08:58 <Pikka> I went with slag for both because gameplay > realism ;)
14:09:10 <supermop> which is nice in some ways
14:09:23 <andythenorth> probably will at some point
14:09:36 <andythenorth> 22 industries in TaI?
14:09:47 <supermop> because you can hit the ceiling in a few years or less and then do not need to rework your timetabled network in unpredictable ways later
14:10:04 <Pikka> one of those squares is "town"
14:10:12 <andythenorth> add a few more :)
14:10:13 <supermop> pikka grassland replaces temperate?
14:10:24 <andythenorth> coffee coffee coffee
14:10:41 <Pikka> location info for tropic, supermop
14:10:44 <andythenorth> anything at sea?
14:10:53 <supermop> yeah where's the beer
14:10:58 <Pikka> nothing but oilrigs. and even oilrigs are annoying.
14:11:11 <Pikka> the beer is food from the food processing plant :P
14:11:31 <supermop> anything in rainforest then?
14:11:49 <Pikka> I don't think I differentiate
14:11:58 <Pikka> between grass and rainforest
14:12:44 <andythenorth> space launch platform?
14:12:56 <supermop> metabolist floating megacities?
14:13:07 * andythenorth considers a space economy
14:13:16 <andythenorth> Dan and I have been having….ideas :P
14:13:32 <andythenorth> why have a balanced model of the macro-economy?
14:13:42 <andythenorth> when you could go deep on some specific thing
14:14:28 <supermop> speculative home construction based economy
14:16:00 <andythenorth> produces: hungover people with no money
14:16:06 <supermop> citadis c2 just drove over beer can stuck in tracks outside
14:18:07 <supermop> mczapkie posts basically what i just said about power plants...
14:18:22 <kamnet> stealing all your good ideas
14:18:45 <kamnet> Andythenorth, what all have you eliminated from FIRS since you started?
14:19:22 <supermop> m going to watch some seinfeld
14:19:57 <andythenorth> kamnet: most of it
14:20:25 <kamnet> Seinfeld? Man, how quaint.
14:20:34 <kamnet> Anybody seen the new Daredevil series?
14:21:09 <kamnet> What if the next FIRS was all the stuff you threw away from the last FIRS?
14:21:21 <andythenorth> yes that would suck
14:21:33 <supermop> what if seinfeld were modern?
14:23:59 <kamnet> Then J Peterman would be dead now
14:26:28 <supermop> old timey brick sheds: slate shingle roof?
14:26:46 <supermop> i just just grey noise in 8b
14:27:37 <supermop> what about the terracotta block and concrete? i used the same texture in 8bpp but maybe corrugated makes more sense?
14:28:07 <supermop> could be dark dingy grey corrugated instead of galvanized
14:29:37 <supermop> hard to find textures of these dudes:
14:29:47 <supermop> let alone free tiling ones
14:31:12 <supermop> some brick or tile should pass for it at scale
14:35:30 <supermop> oooh i just found 8bpp railtype sprites i made years ago
14:36:46 <supermop> now i remember why i decided to nver again do pixel art
14:38:26 <supermop> i never even got to the monorail
14:38:47 <supermop> the idea was a full tile of ballast to make yards look less weird
14:39:01 <supermop> i guess these could be used as is
14:39:36 <supermop> they are more dingy that rendered shit though
14:40:27 <supermop> which of my opened ended fruitless topics should i go off topic in by posting these
14:46:36 <supermop> ok i only need to model and render 56 'buildings' by june to make a 32bpp version in under 5 years
14:47:24 <supermop> that and get help fixing whatever is wrong with the code, and adding code for fences
14:47:40 <supermop> and replace red pavement on brick sheds with grey
14:49:43 <supermop> ..i actually did draw 8bpp monorails too, and foundations...
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18:49:54 <luaduck> does having reload_cfg on mean we can't have random seed generation at map reset time?
18:50:04 <luaduck> our seed has been stuck for a week
18:50:36 <luaduck> or is this going to be some stupid fix like "set generation_seed to 0"
18:54:41 <planetmaker> luaduck, yes, reload_cfg will reload the cfg - including the random seed stored in it
18:55:05 <luaduck> can that be overridden in any way?
18:55:18 <luaduck> or is disabling reload_cfg the only way
18:56:11 <Rubidium> have you tried removing the seed from the config file?
18:56:34 <Rubidium> i.e. remove the whole line with generation_seed
18:56:39 <luaduck> I get the feeling it'll just write that out though
18:56:53 <luaduck> especially if we ever did a config save
18:57:46 <Rubidium> alternatively use 2**32-1 as seed
19:01:43 <luaduck> that sounds more likely to work
19:02:03 <luaduck> I wasn't aware the seed took arythmatic operators though
19:03:03 <planetmaker> it doesn't. It's just more visible to write 2^32-1 or LONG_MAX than ...
19:03:09 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 4294967295
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20:07:53 <Alberth> oh dear, some bad mixup
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20:14:09 <ub_umstieg> Hi is there a way ti detect a traffic train jam
20:15:17 <Alberth> turn on negative profit warnings is one way
20:15:23 <ub_umstieg> it is displayed at a yearchage but this is a long time
20:15:50 <ub_umstieg> Alberth: in the settings
20:15:53 <Alberth> you can also look at the minimap to check whether all trains seem to be moving
20:16:25 <ub_umstieg> minimap at 2048x2048 is not a good look at
20:17:08 <ub_umstieg> and profit warning im gone check but maybee spams me up to the ears
20:17:28 <Alberth> trains also throw 'no path to destination' warnings after a while
20:17:46 <Alberth> at least they do with me
20:18:02 <Alberth> but I don't know when they do that exactly
20:18:47 <Alberth> the best solution is to make networks that don't jam, of course :p
20:18:49 <ub_umstieg> this woudt be a good feather to give them a time value in settings throw on 10day stuck for example
20:19:15 <Alberth> they do turn around at some point
20:19:23 <Alberth> but some people have disabled that
20:19:26 <ub_umstieg> Alberth: agree on that but the map generater offen discard this on to low space
20:20:00 <ub_umstieg> turn around with main route full is the reasen for total jam
20:20:34 <ub_umstieg> only train depo is he jam cleaner
20:20:35 <Alberth> always fun to clean up :)
20:21:23 <Alberth> but it seems that you're no having enough space on the main line then
20:21:33 <ub_umstieg> sometimes its a mess on high load industries in bvig populated areas
20:22:11 <ub_umstieg> ok im fine THANKS to all that are providing s much fun to me
20:22:33 <ub_umstieg> i play only one game per Humen jear
20:23:10 <Alberth> I never finish a game :)
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20:41:55 <andythenorth> subclassing twice
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20:54:27 <andythenorth> flat docks anyone? o_O
20:54:32 * andythenorth would draw the sprites
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22:03:58 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: danmack was last seen in #openttd 3 minutes and 44 seconds ago: <DanMacK> Hey all
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continue to next day ⏵
