IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-04-10
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00:01:12 <Supercheese> It doesn't seem to actually explicitly say so in the specs though
00:01:40 <Supercheese> ah, it does for industries
00:01:54 <Supercheese> and houses... I will add it to airports
00:03:05 <frosch123> for railtypes and objects it's the label/classid you have to set first
00:04:19 <Supercheese> *sigh* it's the little things that getcha...
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00:41:17 <Supercheese> Oh now each airport can have its own dates of introduction
00:45:26 <Elukka> did 2cc's current iteration remove the old feature where trains would have barely any running costs while standing still?
00:45:58 <Elukka> or did i break things somehow
00:47:41 <kamnet> It may not have implemented that yet.
00:51:05 <Elukka> hmm. might have to go to the old 2cc for the time being then
00:52:57 <Supercheese> the other languages have it correct, strange
00:53:14 <Supercheese> seems most of the aircraft pages are similarly broken
00:53:36 <Elukka> hm. though it has nicer wagons
00:53:50 <Elukka> tradeoff between wagons and better running costs, then
00:54:03 <Supercheese> Ah, perhaps a wiki template is broken
00:55:44 <Supercheese> Yes, a template is indeed broken
01:05:50 <Supercheese> Hmmm, should I only enable the airship stations if Av8 is loaded...?
01:10:28 <supermop> is there an ogfx aircraft? and could it add the disaster zepplin as a vehicle?
01:10:54 <supermop> people may like them in modern era for rough remote helicopter stations
01:12:08 <Supercheese> I believe the general consensus is just, "Use Av8, nothing else even comes close."
01:13:22 <Supercheese> You could try and make another aircraft grf... but you'd always just be playing second fiddle
01:14:33 <supermop> i use ogfx trains on occasion
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01:45:33 <Samu> let me take a look at av8
01:52:46 <Sylf> Elukka, lowering the running cost overall for the time being isn't good enough either?
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01:56:40 <Elukka> oh, it's good enough, i was just considering which option is better
01:57:07 <Elukka> it's still the set i'm gonna use, and i'll probably go for the newer one for the nicer wagons
01:57:24 <Elukka> i just wanted to make sure it wasn't supposed to have the feature and i just had a grf conflict or something
01:58:37 <Elukka> got a lot of grfs to update since i haven't played in a couple years
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02:18:18 <soupy> I've become embroiled in seeing how much I can do with only the passenger business. With horses in 1860.
02:22:15 <kamnet> Supermop: Nah, no reason to code it for restrictions like that. It would dicourage others from making new aircraft sets
02:24:22 <Supercheese> err do you mean me...?
02:26:05 <kamnet> to many super grf makers here LULZ
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02:36:53 <Supercheese> heh, well I agree
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03:18:19 <soupy> So, this is just a crazy idea, but would there be any way of modding OTTD to show how much cost, income, and profit is coming from a certain group in the vehicle listing?
03:21:27 * soupy mumbles something about there being a lot of modders in here that would love a case of beer.
03:21:56 <Supercheese> There may already be a patch
03:24:26 <soupy> I want to know if it would be more cost effective to replace my 18 busses (horses) with a short-haul train... that mod would be awesome.
03:26:49 <soupy> It would sure be a lot easier on my CPU'
03:27:10 <soupy> (As far as large scale operations goes.
03:29:58 <soupy> I have to say, I'm absolutely loving Cargodist now I've found the map graph thingy.
03:43:53 <Supercheese> What on earth, I save my game, load my save, and the game forgets I had accepted the 1 year preview of a new vehicle...
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04:24:12 <soupy> Gah, that's what bugs me about this game. 2 hours to set up 2 star networks and a train between the hubs for 200k / quarter, or 5 minutes to set up 10 boats to and from fishing grounds for 300k / quarter.
04:25:01 <Eddi|zuHause> or 200 hours for a real train network...
04:25:31 <Eddi|zuHause> or 2000 hours to fill a 4048^2 map
04:28:46 <soupy> Whenever I start to really branch out with my rail network, I always get tired of designing intersections with the lowest chance of delays (junctions with speed-up lanes etc.), then I get tired of doing that and don't build anymore. Even though if I did it with the simplest T junction, it would only have a 1% effect on efficiency.
04:31:12 <Eddi|zuHause> you're probably overthinking it
04:33:13 <soupy> Exactly. I was pondering that earlier. I should probably just bang out my lines for startup and then start correcting them as I see major problems, which will be way further down the line for 95% of my long-hauls.
04:36:56 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, sometimes you need to have a "good enough" attitude to get anything done at all
05:04:13 <Pikka> the hats could do with some more detail, rather than just being disks. :)
05:04:53 <supermop> will hats have corks on them?
05:05:17 <supermop> nothing less will do
05:05:37 <supermop> do people drive utes up there?
05:05:45 <supermop> ittle house should have a ute
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05:12:45 <soupy> Man I wish Yeti hadn't given me an <invalid cargo> error yesterday. Would have liked to have tried it properly but got paranoid that it would screw me over later with some other error.
05:12:54 <TartarusMkII> Hi guys, I've got a question- I notice that in the default version of OpenTTD, some industries are difference sizes, like a coal mine may be larger, or a power plant may have more cooling towers. Is this aesthetic, or does this do something for its growth potential?
05:13:11 <Pikka> purely aesthetic, TartarusMkII
05:14:09 <TartarusMkII> Is there anything to keep in mind when choosing an industry to work with in the beggining other than distance?
05:15:35 <Pikka> with the default industries? nope.
05:16:53 <soupy> Other than their current production, of course. Either way, it's pure luck, but if you get decent production increase with a 120 ton coal mine, it's of course going to be better than an 80 ton coal mine.
05:53:47 <TartarusMkII> I had an accident and now ruined trains are on my tracks- how do I get rid of them?
05:55:24 <Supercheese> they will disappear on their own shortly
05:55:31 <Supercheese> you must live with them until they do
06:06:53 <TartarusMkII> damn okay, thanks.
06:15:51 <kamnet> I'm going ekranoplan crazy tonight.
06:24:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm going crazy at youtube tonight
06:24:23 <Eddi|zuHause> it suddenly decided that the big player mode should have the same size as the small player mode
06:24:51 <kamnet> Most of the ones I'm finding are basically light passenger and cargo transport, but I've found some real interesting ones too
06:24:57 <Eddi|zuHause> unless i switch my browser to fullscreen (F11), which only marginally increases the size of the browser
06:25:20 <kamnet> A pair of luxury "superyacht" ekranoplans coming in at a few million dollars each.
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06:25:25 <Eddi|zuHause> and i don't understand the conditions on which it decides this size
06:29:53 <TartarusMkII> When is a good time to start tackling the loan debt?
06:33:09 <kamnet> I tend to do it when I've got a stable amount of income and I'm not building anything else.
06:34:36 <TartarusMkII> Right now I have a very strong set up for moving coal to a power plant, but I don't want to invest in the shitty starting train, so I only bought a few, but reserved space to expand the railway.
06:35:04 <TartarusMkII> Then I gave a city nearby a little train system to ferry passengers to a dock, then I made something similar along the coast but with busses, and I have one ferry moving people back and forth
06:35:15 <TartarusMkII> right now I am experimenting with the idea of making things like the ferry wait for a full load
06:35:21 <kamnet> Yeah, if you're still building and have thin profit margins, keep borrowing.
06:36:14 <TartarusMkII> I would prefer to choose something far away ,but if I wanted to make steel for the sake of a factory, and an ore mine is nearby, is trucks just cheaper for carting stuff a short range? Or is rail still.. better(?)
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06:57:40 <Eddi|zuHause> TartarusMkII: for short hauls i often use the cargo trams from HEQS
06:58:07 <Eddi|zuHause> TartarusMkII: it might not be the most profitable way, but it is certainly more space efficient
06:59:55 <TartarusMkII> Okay, thanks. Vanilla doesn't have trams, right? So like, vanilla then? X3
07:00:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't played vanilla in like 10 years :p
07:00:35 <TartarusMkII> haha I'm just starting out XD
07:00:48 <TartarusMkII> I got trains truckies boaties and planes
07:05:42 <Eddi|zuHause> road vehicles mostly shine in tight spaces like cities, it has less to do with distances
07:18:58 <Eddi|zuHause> although the generally lower speed somewhat has a higher impact on longer distances. and the amortization of rail wagons has a higher impact on higher production levels
07:19:57 <Eddi|zuHause> you only pay maintenance for the train engine, no matter how many wagons it has, while you pay maintenance for each truck
07:32:09 <TartarusMkII> Ah, I'm having quite a problem. I am sending Iron Ore to a station as a transfer, but the Smeltery that is within range of the station is not picking up the iron for itself. should I make it not a transfer, and just drop it for the smeltery to make steel?
07:35:01 <TartarusMkII> Yes, that's it, oka.
07:45:00 <TartarusMkII> What happens if I tell a train with 4 pieces to dock at a 1 slot (2 piece) station?
07:51:17 <kamnet> There are no trams in vanilla OpenTTD. yes you should unload (not transfer) for the local industry to pick up. And what will happen is that your train will unload slower and take a penalty.
07:53:26 <TartarusMkII> I got lots of goods from this factory, but I don't know how to best send it to this town I've got my trains in because I could only fit one platform stations there, and don't want a whole new group of engines on that small track just to distribute goods =v
08:05:08 <TartarusMkII> Now the station that delivers to the factory won't acquire the goods from the factory to put on the train sitting there waiting for them =v
08:07:31 <TartarusMkII> oh nvm now it is.. hm.
08:24:38 <Supercheese> stations do not begin receiving cargo until a train that wants it arrives at the station
08:24:48 <Supercheese> by default at least, there is a setting that controls that
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08:35:39 <supermop> tensile roofs are really not great at holding my interest
08:36:01 <supermop> i guess there's a reason I've never cared about these things in real life
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08:41:24 <TartarusMkII> Is there a menu function like the replace menu in vanilla that allows me to replace old vehicles? I don't mean automatically, but I wonder how I am supposed to do this other than ordering ones by hand to go to the depot to do it manually
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08:53:57 <andythenorth> we’re being overwhelmed by falsehood
08:54:26 <Supercheese> TartarusMkII: Yes, there is that option under "Manage Vehicles" the dropdown at the bottom of your vehicle listing
08:54:59 <TartarusMkII> I see, undr manage list, replace, send to depot, and send for maintenance
08:55:09 <Supercheese> Replace is what you want eh?
08:55:28 <TartarusMkII> Yes but that's automatic, I want to know if there is a menu option to manually replace that is one step further than ordering each truck to go to a depot
08:55:44 <Supercheese> that is under the Settings menu
08:56:17 <Supercheese> open the big settings tree and search for "renew"
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09:02:40 <andythenorth> 8 / 66 FIRS industries converted :P
09:24:45 <kamnet> overwhelmed by falsehoods, andy?
09:27:17 <andythenorth> truth and veritas both left
09:27:22 <andythenorth> one after the other
09:27:44 <kamnet> I thought it was right?
09:28:16 <kamnet> I've got stats on 32 ekranoplans. Somebody now needs to fix OpenTTD so we can properly use them. :-)
09:30:37 <Eddi|zuHause> veritas fuck it?
09:30:59 <kamnet> That way somebody can spend $2 million on a 500 km/h Bentley Ares SuperYacht to take 500 of their closest friends to drive 20 tons worth of SUV on exclusive desert islands. :D
09:36:10 <Supercheese> I wonder what sort of license is required to pilot an ekranoplan...
09:36:30 <Supercheese> does the FAA regulate it? They aren't technically aircraft...
09:37:10 <supermop> if its out on open ocean it doesnt need to be regulated?
09:38:07 <Supercheese> well one must dock somewhere...
09:38:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i suppose as long as they don't reach a certain height, they'll be classified as ships?
09:38:26 <andythenorth> probably same as hovercraft
09:38:32 <supermop> using paypal to send money to my fiance seems incredibly odd
09:38:35 <Supercheese> they do seem to fall under maritime regulations
09:38:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure there are rules for seaplanes that can be applied
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09:39:42 <supermop> should i skip these suspended roof stations? i just cant imagine them turning out interesting enough
09:40:04 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: we really can't tell you what to do.
09:40:20 <supermop> precious few real tensile roof structures look anything but forgettably boring
09:40:21 <andythenorth> what else are we hanging out here for?
09:40:51 <supermop> i mean i only come on irc to receive my instructions from andy
09:41:10 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: escaping the sad reality of our so-called "real" life
09:41:24 <supermop> since he refuses to operate a newgrf themed numbers staton
09:41:25 <andythenorth> this is the best escape we can find? o_O
09:42:02 <Eddi|zuHause> isn't that the main classification of any hobby?
09:42:45 <supermop> i think i'll shelve them
09:43:02 <supermop> maybe do something with spaceframes instead
09:43:10 <supermop> then maybe some sheds
09:43:56 <Eddi|zuHause> hobby == the life you would lead if you didn't have to rely on a job to get food/shelter
09:45:38 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a reason why the french word "travail" originated in a word meaning "torture" and the german word "Arbeit" originated in a word meaning "slavery"
09:46:24 <Eddi|zuHause> the russian word "robota" has the same origin
09:46:29 <Supercheese> same for Latin "Laboro" and "Labor"
09:46:50 <Supercheese> which even has preserved its dual meaning into English cognates
09:46:53 <supermop> funny that japanese took arbeit to become arubeito which is only a part time, generally menial job
09:47:34 <V453000> why did I read mental job
09:48:19 <andythenorth> what’s the German word for ‘vocation'?
09:48:29 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: maybe they saw that the germans work so much less than everybody else :)
09:48:44 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what does that mean?
09:49:05 <Supercheese> Hmm, whoops, I seem to have triple posted in the OGFX+ airports thread
09:50:05 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: well, there's a link on the left that leads you to the german word
09:50:34 <andythenorth> does it mean the same thing in German, or is it strictly the religious sense?
09:50:49 <supermop> i always assumed that trabajo came from traho
09:50:56 <andythenorth> in en-gb, vocation is now the common term for an enjoyable, rewarding profession or craft
09:51:22 <supermop> so that spanish people assume a job involves dragging something around?
09:52:06 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: well, german "Berufung" [i'd translate it as "calling"] is mostly used in the religious sense, but can be used outside as well
09:52:34 <Supercheese> Yes, "Vocatio" is Latin for "calling"
09:52:46 <andythenorth> vocation is more usually solely positive in the UK now
09:52:55 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it's closely related to german "Beruf", which is generally the job that you learned
09:53:01 <andythenorth> whereas ‘calling’ can be something which isn’t rewarding, but to which duty and capability call you
09:53:16 <andythenorth> vocation would be seen as more rewarding generally
09:53:36 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: i didn't know that i just equated beruf with job and arbeit with work
09:55:11 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: the version i heard that "travail" [or "trabajo", which is really the same] came from something called "tripole", which is a torture instrument
09:55:38 * andythenorth kicking goals here
09:56:04 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: well, "Beruf" means the thing you learned, and "Arbeit" the thing you do. they are usually related, but not necessarily
09:56:33 <supermop> also i obviously never got that far in my german learning despite spending so long at it
09:59:38 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there are probably always subtle differences in the meaning/context of words that cannot be appropriately translated
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10:09:39 <supermop> eddi i'd say 'certainly' not probably
10:09:57 <supermop> and differences even from one region to the next
10:11:17 <Supercheese> most of the time the fences clip with the long airship sprites
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10:21:01 <Eddi|zuHause> clipping usually means wrong bounding boxes
10:22:14 <Eddi|zuHause> either the bounding boxes are too small, or they overlap, so the game has no chance to determine correctly what should be in front of what
10:22:39 <Eddi|zuHause> the way the game treats conflicting bounding boxes might not be optimal
10:23:02 <Eddi|zuHause> but usually fixes in that area tend to make things worse in other places
10:26:22 <Supercheese> the airships are decidedly too big for their bounding box britches
10:26:45 <Supercheese> there's naught to be done about it really, they must be extra large to look good
10:27:10 <Supercheese> but that patch is desirable for other reasons anyway, like integrating airports in with newobjects
10:27:38 <Supercheese> the motivation that patch author had was, "I often extend my airports with object tiles, as do many other people, but it looks funny with the fences in in between the "real" airport and the "fake" parts"
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10:27:49 <Supercheese> which is a fair point
10:29:16 <planetmaker> Supercheese, yes. But can you make it a NewGRF parameter to switch it off?
10:29:30 <Supercheese> sure, that was the first edition of the patch
10:29:47 <Supercheese> guess combine both the autofences and the parameter to enable/disable autofencing
10:30:23 <planetmaker> good idea. Autofence, autofence except when station/object adjacent, always fence, no fences. Dunno. something like that
10:30:42 <planetmaker> though I think, that autofencing could get more intelligent with objects. There are many objects where fences still make sense
10:30:50 <planetmaker> but that might be a 2nd step :)
10:30:54 <andythenorth> autofence is neat
10:31:20 <andythenorth> btw, if we could autofence industry tiles, FIRS would lose quite a lot of nml code :P
10:31:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: well, "nothing to be done" isn't entirely true. the game could be changed to allow increasing the size of the bounding box
10:31:33 <andythenorth> might even stop hitting the register limits :P
10:31:40 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: although bigger bounding box makes it more likely to fall into the second case of problems
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10:33:00 <planetmaker> Supercheese, that the patch went without much comment from me just shows that it needs people like you who contribute / take over :) I'm quite happy about that, seeing there's still lots of potential
10:34:30 <planetmaker> for you to think about, if you want: one can also query the grfid which provides an object tile. As such fencing could be more selective as to which grf provides the objects
10:34:59 <Supercheese> well, there are quite a lot of object grfs...
10:35:08 <planetmaker> but as said: that's definitely not for the first version of it. But... yeah, nice detail (which never will work correctly in all cases :P)
10:35:30 <planetmaker> Supercheese, yeah. But maybe only for airport objects (those which explicitly are?)
10:35:53 <planetmaker> or not for those which explicitly aren't?
10:36:11 <planetmaker> of course one cannot cater for all newgrfs :)
10:37:10 <planetmaker> anyway. This thinking should not stop this patch imho. It's only 2nd step, not 1st :)
10:37:50 <Supercheese> I'll implement the autofencing later, now I need to commit the separating of the new airports out into their own entries
10:40:13 <Supercheese> they have their own set of introduction/withdrawal dates too, I tried to match withdrawal of the vintage ports to introduction of their modern replacements
10:41:51 <planetmaker> ok. There certainly could be some overlap
10:42:05 <planetmaker> but that's cosmetics and personal preference :)
10:42:34 <Supercheese> yeah, I always tend to disable as many restrictions as possible in my games for maximum sandbox
10:44:13 <andythenorth> some of these industry conversions are ridiculously easy
10:44:23 <Supercheese> and others are exactly the opposite?
10:44:34 <andythenorth> clearly the hard cases are hiding somewhere
10:44:55 <andythenorth> probably end up removing around 10k lines of code
10:47:27 * andythenorth wonders if there’s any harm in always setting INDTILE_FLAG_RANDOM_ANIMATION
10:47:35 <andythenorth> even if random bits aren’t used
10:51:41 <planetmaker> Supercheese, you build your NewGRFs on windows?
10:51:55 <planetmaker> how do you compile them?
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11:54:32 <kamnet> OK I think I'm done with ekranoplans. 42 of them in various states of stats.
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13:29:00 <planetmaker> hm, that sounds nearly wrong... 40 seconds to build complete OpenGFX
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16:29:52 <andythenorth> if the anim_control cb is not handled, what use are the animation triggers?
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16:30:14 <andythenorth> found a bunch of FIRS industries with animation_triggers set
16:30:20 <andythenorth> but no anim_control handler
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16:39:21 * andythenorth deletes things to see what happens
16:40:34 <Alberth> it makes space at the hard disk :p
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16:43:43 <andythenorth> 86 bytes of space
16:44:10 <Alberth> probably you got an entire disk block even
16:44:28 <andythenorth> I’ll do it some more
16:58:55 * andythenorth wonders if there’s some spriteset magic
16:59:24 <andythenorth> the FIRS spritesets and spritelayouts are quite terrifying in scope
17:05:55 <andythenorth> more FIRS lies about secondary production :D
17:06:36 <andythenorth> I might connect the production amounts up to the industry window text :P
17:06:39 <andythenorth> then the lies would be found
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17:28:28 <argoneus> a lot of devs seem to be around
17:28:39 <argoneus> how do you guys hot reload scripts, newgrfs etc without restarting the game?
17:35:07 <planetmaker> argoneus, no. Unless I exactly know what changed in the NewGRF up to the level of the internal IDs and callbacks
17:35:35 <planetmaker> or if I don't care about the savegame (thus for testing)
17:35:46 <argoneus> so all the scripts etc are loaded when a scenario is started
17:35:48 <argoneus> not when the game is started
17:36:18 <planetmaker> they're integral part of the map and give the map bits their meaning. Yes. Changing that, ... leads to strange results
17:36:56 <argoneus> back onto my quest how to hot reload things then
17:38:13 <Alberth> it's not simply unloadable in general, it becomes fully integrated with everything else, no way to get it out cleanly
17:38:35 <planetmaker> you need to learn about console commands
17:38:45 <planetmaker> and the developer settings, if you want to mess with it
17:41:32 <argoneus> I mean in general, not in ottd
17:41:36 <argoneus> I just thought you guys did it
17:42:45 <argoneus> I'm trying to write a plugin system in C
17:42:55 <argoneus> that lets me (re)load functions without halting the program
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18:01:36 <frosch123> argoneus: the tricky part is to get rid of all (pointer) references to the old version
18:01:40 * andythenorth wonders what this does
18:01:41 <andythenorth> #define THIS_STR_EXTRA_TEXT_PARAM0 ((8<<16) | 8)
18:01:51 <argoneus> frosch123: how did you see what I wrote
18:01:53 <argoneus> you weren't even here
18:02:08 <argoneus> is this being logged
18:02:08 <frosch123> with interpreted stuff it is somwhat easier, than with dynamically loaded libs
18:02:56 <frosch123> yes, this is logged, i thought the topic says so, but apparently there was no space
18:04:20 <frosch123> it only says in .dev
18:05:24 *** DorpsGek sets mode: +o frosch123
18:05:48 *** frosch123 changes topic to "1.5.0 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: hg, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only | Logs: @logs | #openttd.dev for dev-talk"
18:05:55 *** DorpsGek sets mode: -o frosch123
18:06:24 * andythenorth didn’t write this code, and wonders if it’s needed
18:06:44 <andythenorth> only used by 2 industries; one of those is simply cargo-culted, the other I see no reason to do this
18:07:25 <frosch123> do the descriptions contain any dynamic numbers?
18:08:37 <andythenorth> unless in debug mode, which is handled by the switch above
18:08:58 <frosch123> well, any defines of THIS_STR_EXTRA_TEXT_PARAM0 should tell you :p
18:09:37 <andythenorth> it’s only defined twice
18:09:42 <andythenorth> I think it’s legacy
18:09:50 <andythenorth> possibly the result of the automated conversion from nfo
18:10:29 * andythenorth is cleaning up a rewrite of rewrite of an automated conversion of a rewrite of a ‘my first CPP’ codebase
18:10:44 <andythenorth> like all the best software
18:12:48 <frosch123> andythenorth: it's used for "To double production deliver {SIGNED_WORD} crates supplies within three months (or {SIGNED_WORD} crates for quadruple production" isn't it?
18:13:22 <andythenorth> that’s primary industries
18:13:25 <andythenorth> this is secondary
18:20:41 <andythenorth> maybe as many as 64
18:22:23 <andythenorth> so with primed caches, FIRS now compiles in 1m15s or so
18:22:26 <andythenorth> which is impressive
18:22:32 <andythenorth> how can it be faster? o_O
18:29:37 <frosch123> what are you frying?
18:30:25 <kamnet> It could be faster if you just stripped out all the unnecessary industries like farming and engineering supplies. :P
18:31:36 <kamnet> @frosch123 Just down the street from me is a drive-thru restaurant named Fish Frydays.
18:32:57 <planetmaker> andythenorth, opengfx compiles in 40s ;)
18:33:27 <andythenorth> that’s faster than ~hours
18:33:30 <andythenorth> what did you do?
18:33:49 <planetmaker> not sure. Nothing really.
18:34:33 <kamnet> Drats. I was hoping Supercheese had a new version of OpenGFX+ Airports up already
18:34:36 <frosch123> planetmaker: i want to look into the nml packaing/installation tomorrow
18:34:50 <frosch123> anyone else has started something that is not linked in the ticket?
18:37:11 <kamnet> I wasn't aware of push/. It's not linked to from the dev page
18:37:26 <kamnet> just release and nightly
18:37:41 <kamnet> So, for that, sir, I thank you very much! :D
18:38:35 <frosch123> paths generally change faster than you can update documentation
18:38:45 <frosch123> so better skip the documentation in the first place :p
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18:41:15 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: he said after this change, nml built for him
18:41:18 <frosch123> the oberhuemer patch looks more fancy that that
18:42:09 <frosch123> but i see that pm added something today :)
18:43:19 <kamnet> Bummer. I was hoping Seaplane Port was now in. :_(
18:49:10 <planetmaker> frosch123, I committed the patch by oberhumer today. And the versioning might be solved like or similar to how I attached it there
18:50:12 <planetmaker> but I'm not 100% sure that solves everything
18:50:21 <planetmaker> however I could use the NML contained in the source bundle
18:50:34 <frosch123> ok, i will try to install the source bundle on some vm or chroot or so
18:51:00 <planetmaker> didn't do that. But explicitly referenced the nmlc. So yeah, more thorough testing needed
18:51:44 <planetmaker> as to the versioning, it needs some thought. Or more thorough updates after releases and we keep the setting of the next_release_version in version_info.py
18:52:35 <kamnet> Perhaps a silly question, but how far fetched would it be to develop a ShipType spec? :D
18:53:11 <andythenorth> we discussed that once
18:53:20 <frosch123> we also have river/sea ships, but the gui sucks
18:53:20 <andythenorth> there was a new spec and such, but it was not solving anything iirc
18:53:43 <andythenorth> river/sea ships sucks anyway
18:54:14 <frosch123> so, yeah, we have some have-baked things. but the gui is so obscure that no player understands is, and newgrf give up using it :p
18:54:42 <andythenorth> I use it for one ship in Squid
18:54:51 <andythenorth> but Dan is drawing an awesome new sprite that will kill that ship
18:55:18 <andythenorth> actually, I do cripple the bigger ships on rivers/canals
18:55:38 <andythenorth> but pure river ships make no sense for gameplay
18:55:54 <andythenorth> why would you use them?
18:56:22 <andythenorth> you don’t use ships unless you need to traverse at least some sea
18:56:33 <andythenorth> ‘nobody’ builds pure river routes
18:56:45 <andythenorth> it makes no sense, RVs and trains are always better
18:57:01 <andythenorth> and if the ship is crippled on sea, you won’t choose it
18:57:02 <kamnet> Except if you're playing before 1820.
18:57:22 <andythenorth> I don’t support playing before 1860 or so
18:57:28 <andythenorth> it distorts the game in weird directions
18:57:54 <andythenorth> the game is best played for 100 years or so in the 20th century
18:58:12 <andythenorth> Chris Sawyer had it about right, he just picked the wrong start date, so he could include futuristic trains
18:58:23 <kamnet> It's only best because that's what it has been clasically focused on.
18:58:54 <kamnet> And some of us are just weirdos.
18:59:32 <kamnet> New scenario I'm developing is going to be heavy on rivers that provide players with well-connected routes to start.
18:59:58 <kamnet> Probably starting at 1850, thought about dropping back to 1800 as well.
19:01:13 <andythenorth> you’ll pre-place all the industry?
19:01:50 <kamnet> Yep. But just primary industry. If player needs a secondary industry, they have to fund it themselves. They'll have to make some hard choices.
19:04:20 <kamnet> I'll place plenty of primary industry (probably more than necessary). I may put a very scant few secondary industry in just to make it not crippling to play.
19:04:43 <kamnet> I'll pre-build some really really crappy winding and sometimes not entirely connected roads and extremely low-speed bridges.
19:05:19 <kamnet> And lots of rivers, from sea level on up, with height level set to 60.
19:06:07 <kamnet> Yep, eGRVTS for the horses and early trams. If foobar ever gets time to come back and finish it, 2cc Trams as well. Or if Road Hog gets usable before then, I'll chuck that int oo. :D
19:06:36 <andythenorth> Hog has no horses yet
19:06:47 <andythenorth> Dan will twist my arm though :)
19:07:09 <kamnet> No, but I like the trams.
19:07:33 <andythenorth> Hog will be beta ‘soon'
19:07:47 <kamnet> especially the cargo trams. Funny, speaking of twisting arms, that's what I had to do with Voyager One to get cargo trams drawn, and then like a week later you're putting them in Road hog
19:08:25 <kamnet> I also tried to get earlier horses, but Voyager and Foobar both balked. Oh well.
19:08:37 <andythenorth> I am not a big fan of horses
19:08:49 <andythenorth> but that might be because they were broken in eGRVTs for so long
19:09:02 * andythenorth will give the horses a second chance
19:09:04 <kamnet> and they're messy to draw and lay out
19:09:31 <kamnet> and they can only go so fast. 10-12 mph.
19:09:40 <andythenorth> the speed will have to be cheated
19:09:43 <kamnet> they only get more powerful if you add more horses.
19:09:44 <andythenorth> same as other things
19:09:57 <andythenorth> bulldozers only go 4mph, except in HEQS
19:10:22 <andythenorth> trucks in the UK are 40t gross weight, not 40t cargo - except in Road Hog
19:10:48 <kamnet> I think 12 mph is plenty fast for horses. They'll be faster than any mechanical engine or even the first electric trams for about 15 years.
19:11:01 <kamnet> And then they'll fall right off the face of the earth. :D
19:13:04 <andythenorth> I say this rarely, but might be valid for a parameter in Road Hog
19:13:19 <andythenorth> specific to ‘slower’ vehicles
19:29:30 <andythenorth> cluster processing industries near their primary supply sources
19:29:36 <andythenorth> rather than away from them, as now :P
19:30:23 <Alberth> find two such clusters, and bring cargo back and forth
19:31:09 <andythenorth> 17 of 66 FIRS industries converted :|
19:31:22 <DorpsGek> Alberth: 0.257575757576
19:31:30 <andythenorth> I was aiming for 25%
19:31:40 <andythenorth> I am deliberately only doing the easy ones
19:31:51 <andythenorth> most fit the standard template well
19:32:03 <Alberth> and delete the remaining ones :)
19:32:03 <andythenorth> but of course, there are one or two that just have ‘something extra'
19:32:34 * andythenorth considers hard-coding long strings of nml and dumping it in for the ‘special’ stuff
19:33:13 <andythenorth> <tal:I_am_ashamed_of_all_my_wrongs replace=“industry.get_all_my_wrongs()” />
19:33:42 <andythenorth> a good templating language is a moral template language
19:34:06 <andythenorth> i.e. it allows the author to make their own moral choices
19:34:38 <frosch123> the funny thing about firs having 66 industries is that full firs is no longer full firs :p
19:35:02 <andythenorth> and it’s a stupid name anyway
19:35:14 <andythenorth> FIRS 2 can change that name
19:35:27 <andythenorth> FIRS 2 will change a few things
19:43:02 <andythenorth> the python templating step is much slower under python 3
19:49:17 *** JacobD88 has joined #openttd
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19:54:36 <kamnet> FIRS Complex Industries?
19:55:44 <andythenorth> I suggested some names previously
19:55:54 <andythenorth> but not ones that are family friendly
19:56:50 <Alberth> Retemplated industries :p
19:59:51 <andythenorth> FIRS: now it’s just like YETI
20:00:34 <andythenorth> only 3 simple ones left
20:00:45 <andythenorth> then I have to use thinking
20:00:51 * andythenorth does not have much thinking to spare
20:01:21 <andythenorth> Alberth I used a deque the other day, I feel all grown up :P
20:02:24 *** DanMacK has joined #openttd
20:03:15 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd
20:22:44 <kamnet> Boy, Quast65 is getting crazy awesome with this airport objects.
20:29:32 <Alberth> going a bit overboard :)
20:33:30 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: DanMacK was last seen in #openttd 31 minutes and 0 seconds ago: <DanMacK> Hey hey
20:33:32 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: I have not seen andthenorth.
20:33:39 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 30 minutes and 48 seconds ago: <andythenorth> hello DanMacK
20:37:37 <kamnet> Could be a sock puppet, TrueBrain
20:37:56 <andythenorth> andythenorth is not real
20:39:17 <TrueBrain> that does give you something to ponder about
20:42:33 <andythenorth> oh my god I’m just an automaton!
20:42:45 <andythenorth> probably some kind of biological replicant
20:50:42 <andythenorth> maybe I could be cloned
20:53:26 *** tokai|mdlx has joined #openttd
20:53:44 <andythenorth> the clones can do the hard work
20:53:48 <andythenorth> andythenorth will take it easy
20:55:34 <frosch123> ah, i see, you mean increasing to 9 clones, and put the other 6 into 2 groups
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20:59:38 <andythenorth> at *most* FIRS secondary industries, delivering all of the 2 or 3 required cargos in combination rewards players with increased output
21:00:05 <andythenorth> but for brewery and textile mill, the combinations have to be specific
21:00:06 <kamnet> Do Andydroids dream of electric sheep
21:00:11 <andythenorth> which makes my code ugly
21:01:02 <kamnet> Why do they have to be specific?
21:03:05 <andythenorth> if you deliver MNSP + grain, you get a boost
21:03:13 <andythenorth> if you deliver MNSP + fruit, you get a boost
21:03:19 <andythenorth> if you deliver grain + fruit, no boost
21:03:30 <andythenorth> seemed like a good idea at the time
21:03:33 <andythenorth> now, I’m not so sure :P
21:04:13 <kamnet> Seems a bit odd to me, too
21:06:06 <kamnet> I don't see where the brewery gets any type of enhanced production by having two types of foods to brew. It just gets more stuff to brew
21:06:12 <andythenorth> it’s wholly logical currently
21:06:17 <kamnet> MNSP in theory gives the brewery new ways to do it
21:06:33 <andythenorth> the logic is over-rated
21:06:40 <andythenorth> can’t make steel from iron ore + scrap alone
21:07:17 <andythenorth> but the steel mill still provides a boost for iron ore + scrap
21:07:28 <andythenorth> because otherwise boring
21:07:45 <andythenorth> nah, it’s better to be rewarding
21:08:07 <kamnet> So pick that path andd be consistent. grain+fruit=boost.
21:08:30 <andythenorth> oh brandy is wine
21:08:34 <kamnet> Then again, I'm a teetotaler.
21:08:37 * andythenorth learns something every day
21:09:08 <andythenorth> I can fix this in code, it will just be ugly code
21:18:43 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has joined #openttd
21:19:39 <andythenorth> stuff like this is usually the sign of a bad design
21:52:08 *** FedeWolfie has joined #openttd
21:52:19 <FedeWolfie> hey guys, need help
21:52:32 <FedeWolfie> I've got an air port
21:52:47 <FedeWolfie> There are two planes in there
21:53:18 <FedeWolfie> The first works well, carried passengers leave the airport and I get paid for the transport
21:54:01 <FedeWolfie> The second one carries both passengers and goods but all of them kind of stay in airport blocked and I won't get paid or anything
21:54:29 <frosch123> what does the statusbar of the aircraft say, if you open its window?
21:54:52 <frosch123> there are no aircraft carrying both passenger and goods btw
21:54:58 <frosch123> only passenger+mail
21:55:09 <FedeWolfie> I mean passenger+ mail
21:55:41 <FedeWolfie> Anyway it normally follows the given path but all of its content remains in airport
21:56:34 <frosch123> so, does the aircraft not load? or does it not unload?
21:56:58 <frosch123> or does it not leave after finishing loading?
21:57:20 <FedeWolfie> It does unload normally, but all of its content doesn't "leave" the airport
21:57:40 <frosch123> what do its orders say?
21:57:58 <frosch123> did you set "transfer" or something?
21:58:24 <FedeWolfie> >Reach airport 1 and load > reach airport 2 and unload
21:58:52 <frosch123> so you set it specically to "unload" instead of "unload if accepted"?
21:59:08 <frosch123> does the airport window say it accepts the cargo?
21:59:35 <FedeWolfie> Yeah it does, in fact it accepts the passengers from the first plane
22:00:01 <FedeWolfie> no didnt set specifically
22:02:37 <Marty> are you using normal openttd or any newgrfs?
22:03:03 <FedeWolfie> stable 1.5.0, multiplayer
22:04:24 <Marty> are the planes identical or have you refiited one of them?
22:04:58 <frosch123> is cargodist enabled?
22:05:11 <FedeWolfie> The planes are different
22:05:20 * andythenorth adds jank for this bad design choice
22:05:30 <andythenorth> the irony is that the current code actually has bugs in it anyway
22:05:35 <andythenorth> the boost amounts are wrong :P
22:05:37 <Supercheese> planetmaker: Delayed overnight response, but yes I build my grfs on windows using gcc from MinGW and the win32 compiled nmlc.exe
22:05:44 <Alberth> aircraft window shows it has pax loaded?
22:06:05 <Alberth> passengers (and mail)
22:06:29 <Alberth> picture of savegame would be useful, I think
22:06:42 <frosch123> how do you actually know that they stay on the airport?
22:06:49 <frosch123> does the airport not supply pax on its own?
22:06:50 <Marty> hmm maybe check if airport accepts passengers again
22:07:25 <FedeWolfie> If I click on the airport the storage tells me that there are 1700 passengers and 1600 mails
22:07:36 <FedeWolfie> Gonna upload a snap soon
22:08:23 <Marty> after snap, try save game, close ttd and reload game
22:08:55 <frosch123> Marty: this is not windows :p
22:09:11 <frosch123> esp. not in multiplayer
22:09:14 <Marty> I know.... but I never seen that bug
22:09:48 <Alberth> it's most likely not a bug
22:09:57 <Marty> And want to know if it persistent in case of some corruption
22:10:23 <frosch123> Marty: he would have gotten kicked from the game due to desync for long
22:11:00 <Marty> likely yes, I remember having a similar bug but that was almost 10 years ago
22:11:36 <Alberth> hmm, did openttd exist then?
22:12:02 <FedeWolfie> Yeah, it was made in 2004
22:12:06 <Marty> ofc, openttd is quite old actually
22:12:13 <frosch123> Alberth: we head 10th birthday last year :p
22:12:38 *** Myhorta has joined #openttd
22:12:39 <FedeWolfie> I uploaded, let me know
22:12:54 <frosch123> Alberth: we are past the tipping point
22:13:03 <frosch123> ottd is older than ttd was when ottd started
22:14:27 <Alberth> both seem to be flying (or were flying)?
22:14:35 <Marty> The save game works fine at my pc
22:15:16 <Alberth> that airport is empty
22:15:35 <FedeWolfie> Does the second plane get money with unload?
22:15:49 <Marty> The orders of aircraft2 is go to tarham woods
22:15:58 <Marty> It does not accept people
22:16:51 <FedeWolfie> In tartham woods it should load mails and passengers and then it should unload in kinfingley
22:17:12 <FedeWolfie> As I've seen it does unload but no money
22:17:42 <Marty> if there are no people supplied to the airport then no money
22:17:52 <Alberth> it's out of reach for pax to go to the airport
22:18:00 <Marty> yeah, but he left Alberth
22:18:08 <Marty> so was just a rookie mistake
22:18:18 *** FedeWolfie has joined #openttd
22:18:28 <FedeWolfie> Oh it disconnected sorry
22:18:28 <Alberth> (22:17:52) Alberth: it's out of reach for pax to go to the airport
22:19:02 <FedeWolfie> so? what should I do?
22:19:16 <Marty> sell plane or fly else where
22:19:18 <Alberth> build it closer to the town, until the airport build window says "accepts passenghers (and mail)
22:20:14 <FedeWolfie> The first plane still works
22:20:25 <Marty> first plane does not fly to tarham
22:22:32 <FedeWolfie> the first flies to another place
22:22:57 <Alberth> click the airport, then then the little aircraft near the bottom of the window
22:23:03 <FedeWolfie> but it carries passengers and unloads them successfully
22:23:23 <Alberth> yes, its destination is close enough to houses
22:23:31 <Marty> Tarham airport does not accept pax, so no one want to go there
22:23:45 <Alberth> tarham accepts pax from the aircraft, but not the other way around
22:24:22 <Alberth> both areas are different
22:25:07 <FedeWolfie> aww finally, thanks :D
22:27:05 <Alberth> notice how the build window says "passengers" with supplies, but not accepts
22:27:52 <FedeWolfie> I read accepts, I'm an idiot :v
22:28:03 <FedeWolfie> Thank you for your time C:
22:28:12 <Alberth> it's quite ambiguous :)
22:40:25 <andythenorth> making sugarcane / sugar beet climate-dependent was such a dumb move :)
22:40:41 <andythenorth> FIRS code has to jump hoops for this one small thing
22:44:59 <Supercheese> Feel free to consolidate them
22:45:09 <Supercheese> I highly doubt anyone would complain
22:48:47 <andythenorth> it was all my fault anyway
22:49:20 <andythenorth> sugarcane and sugar beet are quite different cargos
22:52:54 * andythenorth will fix that in V2
23:00:58 <V453000> FIRS dying to version 2? :D awesome
23:04:47 <andythenorth> V453000: going to kill some stuff :P
23:05:13 <andythenorth> also bloody farms will get, at least changed, if not fixed
23:05:38 <andythenorth> also V453000 how about rendering some *realistic* ships that look good at 1x zoom? o_O
23:05:43 <frosch123> did Supercheese send you his savegame?
23:05:52 <andythenorth> challenge yourself with actual pixel style realism :P
23:05:59 <frosch123> with all industries on map getting supplies
23:06:00 * andythenorth hates drawing ships
23:06:01 <V453000> maybe eventually when I get to ships in RAWR
23:06:06 <V453000> which isnt anytime soon :P
23:06:16 <andythenorth> nobody managed to supply all FIRS industries ever
23:06:40 <frosch123> i somehow doubt V would draw ships
23:09:52 * andythenorth pins his hopes on pikka
23:10:00 <andythenorth> otherwise me and Dan will actually have to draw them
23:11:09 *** andythenorth has left #openttd
23:17:16 <kamnet> [17:11] <--| andythenorth has left #openttd
23:17:18 <kamnet> [17:11] |<-- DanMacK has left irc.oftc.net (Quit: Page closed)
23:17:39 <kamnet> I'm certain they're one in the same now.
23:18:23 <frosch123> no, dates sometimes leave together
23:19:31 <kamnet> Y'know, just when I say I'm done researching ground effect vehicles, I keep finding something else to add.
23:25:34 <Supercheese> well, you're stuck until the ship movement handler is updated
23:25:40 <Supercheese> no ship can exceed ~79 mph
23:39:05 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd
23:39:45 <Supercheese> Ha, the German for hovercraft is amazing
continue to next day ⏵
