IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-04-09
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00:02:15 <Samu> when i find a bug in one, i have to go back to the others to fix them, this sucks
00:02:35 <Samu> canal on river forces me to fix 3 other patches or so~
00:03:52 <Samu> honestly, I don't feel like fixing the other patches
00:04:06 <Samu> I'm not focusing on them
00:06:15 <Samu> i dont know how to version these things
00:07:33 <FLHerne> A nice git repo with branches might help, if you don't already have that
00:07:58 <FLHerne> And have features that don't depend on each other in separate branches
00:08:01 <Supercheese> Oh lord, git/hg is horribly confusing
00:08:14 <Supercheese> I would not recommend it unless you're forced to (e.g. ottdcoop devzone)
00:08:30 <FLHerne> Supercheese: I did think that, but once I realised how git works it's wonderfull and perfect :D
00:08:39 <Supercheese> I still have yet to wrap my brain around it
00:08:57 <Supercheese> svn is the only vcs that makes sense to me
00:09:27 <FLHerne> svn is terrible for anything with branches though
00:09:38 <Supercheese> but it's nice and simple
00:09:46 <FLHerne> And dead-simple branching and merging is incredibly useful
00:10:19 <FLHerne> But simplicity can make things harder to use, if they don't do the right things
00:10:20 <Supercheese> I have to go back and read the manual every time I revisit projects on the devzone
00:10:44 <FLHerne> Supercheese: Try 'git help' ;-)
00:10:51 <Supercheese> Well, devzone uses hg
00:12:55 <Supercheese> in any event, I cannot recommend anything but svn for someone who has no familiarity with vcs
00:13:17 <Supercheese> although that is just me, of course
00:13:28 <FLHerne> But svn doesn't have branching, and hence doesn't really solve Samu's problem
00:14:09 <Supercheese> Hmm, it's a shame that the recommended solutions for solving issues of too much complexity involve adding yet more layers of complexity ...
00:14:22 <FLHerne> The problem with a purely-linear vcs is that it doesn't do anything about managing collections of unrelated changes
00:15:17 <FLHerne> Being able to split changes into separate lines of development is a slightly steeper learning curve, but makes the actual use a lot simpler
00:17:18 <FLHerne> So you can have a 'stable tweaks' branch, and a 'make everything yellow' branch, and work on both alternately
00:18:02 <Samu> i have to compile subversion 1.8.1.3?
00:18:48 <FLHerne> Samu: svn is really no fun, go with git :P
00:18:50 <Supercheese> Ugh, why does OGFX+ have climate-dependent previews...
00:18:57 <Supercheese> now I have to add them for the new ports
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00:30:02 <Samu> i'm focusing on 2 patches only
00:30:13 <Samu> Canal on River and that big named one
00:31:03 <Samu> Game Setting for Oil Rig, With Better Layout, Dock and Lock on Competitor Canal on Permanent Rivers
00:31:45 <Samu> it is built upon the previous one, with a slightly shorter name
00:31:51 <Eddi|zuHause> <kopoba> chillcore can i make clone button hold in ON position while cloning? <-- use the clone button in the train window, not the one in the depot window
00:32:09 <Samu> Game Setting for Dock and Lock on Competitor Canal on Permanent Rivers
00:32:23 <Samu> this one however is for me, pointless to fix
00:32:56 <Eddi|zuHause> (the clone button in the train window is only visible if the train is inside a depot)
00:33:01 <Samu> i fixed for the new one which also includes the oil rig, i feel kind of a moot point to go back and fix something I don't intend to use anymore
00:33:34 <Samu> all previous variants are thus, bugged
00:34:03 <Samu> do I really have to fix them?
00:42:31 <Eddi|zuHause> kopoba: in the window named "Train 2" there is on the right a button with two train engines
00:43:11 <Eddi|zuHause> likewise in "Train 1"
00:43:30 <Eddi|zuHause> also, this is not a .png image
00:45:07 <kopoba> hosting convertation =\
00:46:51 <Samu> that's the game I'm in lol
00:50:18 <kopoba> Pink is goin to win =)
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00:51:05 <Samu> i made aircraft, my number 3 is carrying mail
00:51:18 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. building nml is broken
00:51:21 <Samu> and gets more than the passengers/mail ones
00:51:29 <Eddi|zuHause> must be built from a source checkout
00:52:07 <Mr_Bones_> are there tags or just head?
00:52:23 <Eddi|zuHause> there should be a tag
00:52:33 <Supercheese> why the devil are there even toyland climate previews of OGFX+ airports.....
00:52:39 <Supercheese> why would anyone use the set in toyland
00:53:04 <Eddi|zuHause> why would anyone use [...] toyland
00:53:33 <Samu> what are your long term goals with toyland?
00:53:44 <Samu> everybody hates it, i guess
00:54:13 <Supercheese> Mars conversion is a common idea
00:54:28 <Supercheese> or lunar, but that may or may not have been an April fool's joke
00:54:51 <Eddi|zuHause> but why would you need to replace toyland for that?
00:55:24 <Supercheese> Dunno, but there does exist a Toyland to Mars grf
00:58:40 <Eddi|zuHause> that may be, but there is still no reason why that would be a good idea
00:58:58 <Eddi|zuHause> the orginal mars was more of a sprite replacement for temperate
00:59:37 <Samu> remove toyland from the game?
00:59:53 <Supercheese> Nah, there's probably somebody who likes it; I know I did as a kid
01:00:01 <Supercheese> it's fun to play when you're seven
01:00:26 <Samu> put on its place one of your current NewGRFs i dunno
01:01:02 <Samu> a mix of NewGRF sets as Toyland
01:01:10 <Eddi|zuHause> back as a kid i found mars to be incredibly heavy on the yes. especially the red water
01:03:24 <Eddi|zuHause> mars conversion might be suitible as a base set
01:50:19 <Samu> i'm looking at this static bool CheckShipLeaveDepot(Ship *v)
01:50:59 <Samu> wondering if this could be improved
01:52:10 <Samu> cause you refused to fix
01:53:29 <Samu> if both ways are blocked, it doesn't necessarily mean the ship is stuck, there could be 2 docks in each exits
02:15:58 <Supercheese> wonder if I have commit access to the ogfx+ airports repo...
02:23:59 <Supercheese> ah blast, I made the company colors in the previews the wrong shades
02:32:29 <kopoba> is there any place with grfs and images how it looks in game?
02:32:56 <Supercheese> does not have a comprehensive database, but it has a lot
02:33:10 <Supercheese> and the images are rather small
02:33:17 <Supercheese> but it does have some
02:34:07 <Supercheese> Ho, there's a newer version of MariCo that I do not yet have
02:34:13 <Supercheese> how did that sneak by me...
02:36:30 <kamnet> NewGRFs are very sneaky
02:37:08 <Supercheese> You gotta be sneaky Charlie
02:37:45 <Supercheese> Oh, MariCo is not on bananas, that's how it snuck by
02:42:08 <Sylf> Since when are MB creations on bananas :D
02:42:17 <Supercheese> Well, I had forgotten
02:42:32 <Supercheese> even some of SACs stuff has now made it to bananas
02:44:40 <Supercheese> still working on the vintage commuter
02:46:09 <Supercheese> the climate-aware previews take a while to create
02:57:21 <Samu> this is fixable, just need a way to tell which direction to take
02:58:14 <Samu> v->direction = DiagDirToDir(north_dir);
02:58:25 <Samu> v->direction = DiagDirToDir(south_dir);
02:58:42 <Samu> i need a direction based on the pathfinder
02:58:54 <Samu> it results in one of these two
03:00:28 * Sylf shakes his fist at the nightly backup process
03:01:44 <Samu> need something like v->direction = DiagDirtoDir(pathfinder_results_tells_which_direction_is_better_to_take);
03:01:48 <Eddi|zuHause> <Sylf> Since when are MB creations on bananas :D <-- not before DBSet 0.9 is released
03:02:25 <Sylf> DBSet 0.9 is due out... February 22 of year 2222?
03:02:57 <Eddi|zuHause> something like that
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03:21:03 <Supercheese> Hmm, there are still lingering graphical issues with the vintage commuter airport
03:24:05 <Samu> was there a problem when ships could leave depots if the exits were blocked?
03:25:31 <Samu> strange, seemed so easy to fix :(
03:27:47 <Samu> oh, crap, not really doing what I think, let me re-fix
03:30:36 <Supercheese> Awesome, all issues fixed
03:31:27 <Samu> i want the ship to be smart though
03:37:56 <Samu> let me test will all different pathfinders
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03:53:54 <Samu> okay, i see why I can't do this so easy
03:54:10 <Supercheese> the original pathfinder is shit
03:54:16 <Supercheese> don't bother with it
03:57:54 <Samu> i can work around the issue
03:58:41 <Samu> don't ask for any direction in case of OPF, just leave towards a "randomly chosen direction", apparently north
04:01:07 <Samu> yeah, it likes to go north
04:04:00 <kamnet> Interesting that water waves go from east to west, the windsock on the airports blow north to south, and smoke from chimney buildings gets blown south to north.
04:04:39 <Supercheese> and none of them are affected by hills/slopes
04:04:50 <Supercheese> that would change the windflow pattern :P
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04:29:54 <supermop_> need to figure out how to model catenary curves and surfaces in rhion without fancy plug-ins
04:30:05 <supermop_> that or just use parabolae
04:31:02 <supermop_> pretty easy to make various saddle shaped surfaces to approximate tensile membrane roofs but it will be coolto learn to do it more 'correctly
04:33:56 <Samu> i found a bug, if you plant trees on coastal tiles, trees don't show up, but it costs me
04:34:54 <Samu> wait a min, maybe my trees are invisible omg
04:35:40 <Samu> yeah lol i'm stupid, i had invisible trees in transparency settings
04:36:47 <kamnet> I do that ALL the time
04:38:58 <Supercheese> there are lots of settings that can trip ya up like that
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04:53:07 <Mr_Bones_> grrrrr. ok, how were the nml-0.4.0 binary packages built?
04:53:13 <Mr_Bones_> I'm getting: /usr/lib64/python3.3/site-packages/setuptools/dist.py:292: UserWarning: The version specified ('0.4.0.r5527:5fc25f88f4ca') is an invalid version,
04:55:54 <Mr_Bones_> and then when trying to run nmlc, I get: ImportError: No module named 'nml' with a traceback
04:58:54 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: catenary is easy, you just add an x^2, x^4, x^6, etc. line together
04:59:20 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: or use the "cosh" function directly if it's available
05:00:28 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: the formula is 1/2!*x^2 + 1/4!*x^4 + 1/6!*x^6 + ...
05:00:44 <Eddi|zuHause> where x! is x*(x-1)*...*3*2*1
05:01:43 <Eddi|zuHause> parabola is too pointy at the tip, it needs to get bulged out
05:02:54 <Eddi|zuHause> you can also use "cos(i*x)" where i is the imaginary unit
05:03:20 <supermop_> yeah there is a 'conic' tool, could i do each section of the catenary as a conic?
05:03:38 <Eddi|zuHause> that doesn't sound right
05:04:38 <supermop_> better to just do a bunch of straight segments and use your formulae to do each one?
05:05:10 <supermop_> the aim is to recreate the ogfx monorail roof
05:05:10 <Eddi|zuHause> try to make a cubic spline, if you use intermediate points
05:07:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i can only give you the math, you need to find the appropriate function of your program yourself
05:08:15 <Eddi|zuHause> the catenary is called "cosinus hyperbolicus"
05:09:12 <Supercheese> Ha, how very Latin
05:09:19 <Supercheese> good old mathematicians
05:10:54 <supermop_> i can do it with a nurbs curve, just need to manually set position of each point
05:10:59 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean horny old mathematicians :p
05:11:27 <supermop_> if i make the curve degree 3 it is cubic
05:11:51 <supermop_> curve tool sets degree 3 by default so no problem there
05:12:00 <Sylf> Mr_Bones_, did you copy nml directory to /usr/lib64/python3.3/site-packages?
05:12:15 <Sylf> When I set up nml, I have to do that manually
05:12:44 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: yes. degree 3 is the point where humans (usually) can't spot jumps in curvature anymore
05:13:08 <Mr_Bones_> it ends up in /usr/lib64/python3.3/site-packages/nml-0.4.0.r5527_5fc25f88f4ca-py3.3.egg-info/
05:13:09 <Sylf> After sudo python3 setup.py install, I sudo cp the nml directory
05:13:16 <supermop_> glad to see sylf see curves much in the same way as humans
05:13:21 <Sylf> no, it's separate from that egg info
05:14:07 <Mr_Bones_> nml-0.4.0.r5527-3b43d37dec19.linux-x86_64.tar.gz doesn't have a nml directory
05:14:13 <supermop_> might be a bit silly as im then going to cut the catenary up to make into rigid segments (panels)
05:14:26 <Sylf> oh, I guess I don't grab the tarball
05:14:28 <supermop_> but i want to figure out how to model the wide for other uses
05:14:39 <Sylf> I grab the source from mercurial repository
05:14:54 <supermop_> like bridges etc or fabric roofs
05:15:37 <Mr_Bones_> oh, the 0.3.1 setup.py installs the nlm directory but the 0.4.0 one doesn't.
05:15:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Mr_Bones_: i already said you need a checkout. the tarball doesn't work
05:15:49 <Supercheese> Awesome, got everything working
05:15:51 <Mr_Bones_> I assumed you meant the source tarball.
05:16:05 <Mr_Bones_> So right now, all the tarballs for 0.4.0 are broken?
05:16:19 <Sylf> if it doesn't have nml, then it's probably broken
05:16:42 <Mr_Bones_> seems less than ideal.
05:18:29 <Mr_Bones_> oh... very different setup.py files between the two versions
05:19:12 <Mr_Bones_> packages=['nml', 'nml.actions', 'nml.ast', 'nml.expression'], is missing in 0.4.0. seems like something....
05:22:21 <Supercheese> Vintage Commuter now live in OGFX+ Airports
05:23:59 <Samu> not perfect, but it's something
05:24:20 <Samu> yapf gets the best behaviour
05:25:03 <supermop_> damn it, suspension bridges with heavy road decks form parabolae not catenaries
05:25:17 <Mr_Bones_> yep... adding the packages line back to setup.py results in a working install.
05:25:46 <supermop_> and susp. bridges with heavy cables fall between shape of parabola and catenary
05:25:53 <Mr_Bones_> I know zero things about distutils so no idea if there are other side effects.
05:26:23 <supermop_> if the roof panels are flush with the cables on this station should still be catenary though
05:30:18 <Samu> oh i can improve the ugly behaviour of opf, not sure about npf
05:30:33 <Samu> opf, just go north aka reverse = false
05:36:12 <Pikka> what about suspension bridges made out of toilet rolls and string?
05:38:03 <Samu> damn, npf behaviour is really ugly
05:38:37 <Samu> it reverses midway in the water
05:38:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Mr_Bones_: i'm sure people will appreciate a patch
05:39:21 <Samu> i have to oppose the reverse for NPF when it actually decides it's better to reverse
05:44:30 <kamnet> Supercheese, did you just now push ANOTHER update to OpenGFX+ Airports?
05:45:39 <Samu> build a ship depot and put 2 docks at both exit
05:45:53 <Samu> then have a ship starting
05:46:07 <Samu> watch the different behaviours between the pathfinders
05:46:32 <Samu> i can't figure out a better behaviour for npf
05:46:43 <Samu> but that's my view on it
05:56:33 <Eddi|zuHause> Mr_Bones_: i don't think any of the people interested are here at this moment :p
05:56:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Mr_Bones_: post on the devzone
05:59:07 <Supercheese> post updates as well
06:00:16 <Samu> i'll check for answers tomorrow
06:08:00 <kamnet> So r5577 shows up sometime tomorrow?
06:08:59 <kamnet> Oh nevermidn I see 5576-53
06:11:29 <kamnet> but looks like I'll have to wait for a compiled version :D
06:11:53 <Supercheese> err isn't it already?
06:30:17 <kamnet> Sorry, I looked again, it was there
06:30:33 <kamnet> My OpenTTD folder was pushing 14GB
06:35:15 <Supercheese> whew, that's not small
06:35:51 <kamnet> All stored on Google Drive. :D
06:40:33 <kamnet> Now trimmed down to 7.92 GB
06:54:12 <soupy> So I think inflation has ballsed up my game somehow.
06:55:54 <soupy> I can choose between 170km/h for $400k / year, or the latest monorail 300km/h for $60k / year.
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06:56:46 <soupy> I usually don't change any settings to do with finances, but I don't remember this disparity. Maybe it's one of the NewGRFs.
06:57:06 <soupy> Also, I'm not sure I've ever played a 200 year game before, so that might have something to do with it.
06:57:44 <soupy> I copied my NewGRF list from Damage's LP.
06:58:55 <V453000> well, such disparity in costs usually is due to various newgrfs
06:59:02 <V453000> and every newgrf is in different price range
06:59:11 <V453000> it is just yet another pointher at how useless prices are
06:59:43 <soupy> Without the cheap stuff I'd be screwed though. I don't remember ever having such issues turning a profit. The cheapest before these came along were $400k a year... which is a lot to ask for a train that moves fruit from one place to another.
07:00:38 <V453000> yeah, I guess the idea of the author is that the food/goods trains will balance it out, or that you should not use the trains on such route XD
07:00:39 <soupy> My fruit > alcohol industry was running at an almost constant 100k/year loss, no matter what I did.
07:01:04 <V453000> I make things cheap, which is why NUTS is rather cheap
07:01:19 <V453000> lets you build more, less sitting around waiting for cash, simple as that
07:01:25 <soupy> I knew you were TTD-famous for something.
07:01:59 <V453000> the only real "way tomake more money" is trivial anyway, you build less track on longer distance. You can do that with everything cheaper and build faster, but nothing really changes with costs
07:02:20 <V453000> well I did a few more newgrfs but NUTS was first :P
07:02:44 <V453000> and I kind of spent years playing at openttdcoop before that so I kind of know how the game works too :P
07:02:54 <kamnet> Just depends on what you're playing for. I'm pretty much a sandbox player. I try to do things profitably, but if a line isn't making money I typically don't sweat it.
07:03:27 <V453000> openttd is sandbox? :P
07:03:28 <kamnet> After all, I'm the banker. I'm the 0.1% of the 1%. :D
07:04:26 <soupy> As for money, I know I could spend my savings on throwing out a long line and just pass stuff back and forth and be golden. But I /knew/ there was something amiss with my alcohol industry losing money.
07:04:52 <kamnet> It's the engineer. he's drinking up your profits!
07:07:03 <soupy> He'll be boozing for a while. Now I've found the problem, I've got 2,000,000 liters of alcohol sitting around.
07:08:29 <soupy> Between this and a similar problem with my bauxite > supplies chain, I haven't even started wood or oil yet.
07:09:03 <V453000> I think FIRS also reduces the payment rates for primary cargoes quite majorly
07:09:11 <V453000> so if you have an expensive train set, it is probably wtf
07:09:18 <V453000> and secondaries help a ton
07:10:09 <Pikka> in any case, if you've been playing for 200 years with inflation on, your income will be about 1/5th of what the newgrfs are balanced for. :)
07:10:26 <soupy> That's what I'm thinking Pikka.
07:14:35 <soupy> Hmm, which makes me wonder if the modpack I found with decent maintenance fees isn't taking inflation into account.
07:15:21 <V453000> you cant really do that
07:15:34 <V453000> the player could start the game 30 years later or earlier and all of your calculations would be broken
07:16:58 <kamnet> We need a new inflation model that balances against map size
07:17:28 <soupy> Huh, I'd have thought there would be some public method to do that. $actualprice = $this.inflate($baseprice)
07:18:11 <V453000> nah we dont need any price model, and people need to stop playing on maps larger than 1k x 1k XD
07:18:26 <V453000> all reason is out of the window by then anyway
07:18:33 <V453000> "I just want bigger map cause duh"
07:22:11 <soupy> Pretty much. I genned a 4kx4k map and I'm only using maybe 600x600 so far.
07:28:01 <V453000> I dont think anybody ever filled anything above 1k x 1k
07:28:08 <V453000> I had 5000 trains on 512x512
07:28:22 <V453000> bigger map just wrecks CPU and everything
07:28:52 <V453000> for multiplayer where is extreme amount of clients, 2k x 1k is reasonable
07:28:58 <V453000> but still holyhell big
07:29:07 <Eddi|zuHause> you can try to set the basecost
07:29:07 <Pikka> it's so people can play multiplayer without the extreeeme stress of actually interacting with other players
07:29:44 <Pikka> 4 players all playing in different corners of 2048*, isn't that just so much more fun than single-player?
07:29:44 <Eddi|zuHause> basecost works in steps of doubling/halving cost or income groups
07:30:09 <Supercheese> I have yet to play a game larger than 512x512
07:30:28 <Supercheese> since my goal is to hook up every town and every industry
07:30:32 <kamnet> I like bigger maps because I like to look at trees and mountains and rivers. If I wanted to see 512x512 crammed with train lines, I'd look at circuit boards
07:30:36 <Supercheese> anything larger would take aeons
07:30:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i think the largest i played seriously was 2048x1024 with very few towns. but i only covered half the map
07:31:12 <kamnet> I played the same game for nearly four years. :D
07:31:28 <Eddi|zuHause> interestingly, i covered the longer edge in that game
07:31:40 <Eddi|zuHause> so like 2048x512
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07:36:12 <kamnet> I think I'm going to start working on my GRFID project and just let the community work on the NewGRF list for a bit. If they care. Which they probably don't. :P
07:36:23 <soupy> Maybe a stupid question, but with all these NewGRFs, not all the trains are easily distinguishable by what type of track they run on. Is there an easy way of showing?
07:37:24 <andythenorth> (Track Type) in the name doesn’t work very well
07:37:27 <andythenorth> some people use icons iirc
07:37:49 <kamnet> But no universally agreed on format for displaying that information.
07:37:59 <V453000> I think I will start over with RAWR postproduction XD
07:38:02 <V453000> it just got WAY out of hand
07:38:43 <V453000> just build a depot and see which trains are available in that depot soupy
07:39:16 <kamnet> *ponders* If I post my GRFID Wiki proposal in OpenTTD Development, would I get better feedback or participation?
07:41:20 <Supercheese> perhaps crashing trains crashed ottd
07:41:39 <Eddi|zuHause> in CETS i put track type in extra purchase text
07:41:42 <Supercheese> and then if crashing ottd crashes your computer...
07:41:47 <V453000> when you crash carmageddon reincarnation (often), it says "Oh the irony, game about crashing has crashed."
07:42:02 <soupy> I think Beul's Mono Maglev conversion is throwing it off a bit. Monorail trains are showing available in a maglev statino
07:43:13 <kamnet> That's what it's supposed to do.
07:43:59 <kamnet> "This grf modifies compatibility of standard rail types to allow electrified trains on monorail and monorail on maglev. The aim is to make the process of converting to/from monorail and maglev easier. Known side-effects are that electric trains are now purchasable in monorail depot's. (the same goes for mono and maglev ofc). Furthermore it may (read will) in some cases look silly."
07:44:47 <kamnet> Also: "This grf will likely not function well with any other railtype grf. Trainsets with great amounts of vehicles will cause a very long vehicle list. It is also advised not to use this grf if you have vehicles_never_expire enabled."
07:45:28 <soupy> Yeah, that's the problem I'm coming up against. I probably should have read the fine print.
07:45:56 <soupy> I'm only 3 days into this map. I may have to start over and remove a few NewGRFs.
07:47:20 <kamnet> That always sucks. Granted you could enable newgrf developer mode and take it out, but it could leave things unpredictable. >:)
07:48:09 <kamnet> Not that I'd ever suggest anybody do such things. I totally hosed my four-year long save game because of it.
07:49:17 <Eddi|zuHause> if you don't read the description of NewGRFs, you probably also don't read the instructions of which NewGRFs are probably dangerous to remove from a running game
07:49:23 <V453000> removing track sets definitely is not a good idea
07:50:49 <soupy> I read the description Eddi|zuHause, and knew what that mod did. I didn't think of it when I tried V453000's suggestion.
07:51:00 <kamnet> My poor game. Supercheese's mail trucks kept getting stuck on the threshold between road tiles and lorry stations. :-(
07:51:27 * andythenorth considers using a binary heap
07:51:46 <Supercheese> Ah I really should get around to adding 32bpp to those vehicles
07:51:54 <Supercheese> they are almost all rendered
07:52:16 <soupy> I'm going to see what endgame looks like. If I can just get to know a few of the maglev vehicles for specific purposes, I'll stick with it.
07:52:46 <kamnet> Not the mail truck's fault. I had added and removed enough NewGRFs I somehow corrupted the game logic that vehicles couldn't tell when the lorry station was empty or full, so they'd stop on the threshold and block all other vehicles from coming or going.
07:52:52 <Eddi|zuHause> TTO used to do that. somehow one or more vehicles got stuck when entering/leaving a truck station, and then they all clumped up
07:54:05 <kamnet> Supercheese, that would be awesome. Also wouldn't mind seeing earlier models of hot air balloons. :)
07:54:33 * andythenorth thinks using heapq might be overkill for a simple list
07:54:55 <Supercheese> but I am really lazy
07:55:02 <Supercheese> so I haven't implemented it yet
07:55:44 <Supercheese> although if you want, I can send you that test grf
08:01:46 * andythenorth learns some actual programming theory
08:02:08 <andythenorth> ‘computer science’ would be stretching the term though
08:02:23 <kamnet> That would be cool, Supercheese :D
08:02:41 <Supercheese> mmk, I'll pm it to ya on the forums in a bit
08:02:52 <kamnet> I'm revamping my Empire scenario and would love to see random balloons floating by
08:12:45 <Rubidium> kamnet: what would such a GRFID project yield?
08:14:12 <kamnet> Rubidium: In essence, replace GRFCrawler with a Wiki database of GRFIDs. Run a script that scrapes bananas for all current GRFIDs registered and generates a page for each one with basic information. Authors and visitors alike can then modify the wiki to include any useful information they deem fit to publish.
08:14:38 <Rubidium> bananas scraping is so lame ;)
08:14:50 <Rubidium> and that list is so partial
08:15:14 <kamnet> It would be partial, but it would be a start
08:15:29 <kamnet> as more files are added to bananas, more IDs automatically get copied over.
08:16:24 <Rubidium> as that contains basically anything that has been seen in the last few years on multiplayer games
08:17:20 <kamnet> You could pull that into. Bananas is wonderful, though, because a) we know authors are using it to update their files and b) it contains useful information for players.
08:17:22 <Rubidium> but I reckon that searching is going to be a real pain in the arse in wiki
08:18:53 <kamnet> Not any more than it is on GRFCrawler now
08:19:38 <andythenorth> I would pay zero attention to any list of grfids
08:20:17 <andythenorth> bananas prevents uploading with an existing grfid?
08:20:55 * andythenorth considers making 255 FISH grfs, to reserve ‘my’ range
08:21:10 <andythenorth> and uploading them all to bananas
08:21:15 <kamnet> Say, for example, you have a scenario with NewGRFs loaded, but you don't have them. OpenTTD offers to find them in Bananas. Banaas doesn't have the files. It then offers to find them for you when you click "External Website" button. Currently it takes you to a GRFCrawler result that searched for the missing GRFID.
08:21:16 <andythenorth> I need a naming convention
08:21:47 <andythenorth> fish-00.grf - fish-FF.grf?
08:21:48 <V453000> "grf exists" and "grf isnt on bananas" should not even happen :(
08:21:53 <soupy> Well, I have seen the future, and it is shit. Changed the year to see exactly what trains I'll have available. Apparently after I convert to maglev, I'll be limited to non-FIRS transportation.
08:22:25 <Supercheese> Well, for testing purposes surely grf exists predates grf is on bananas
08:22:44 <V453000> sure Supercheese but usually not publicly available
08:22:48 <V453000> if yes then that already is pretty wrong
08:22:50 <andythenorth> ‘for testing purposes’ the grfid could be 12345678
08:22:53 <Supercheese> and during development new features don't make it to bananas but they are on bundles server......
08:22:58 <V453000> just throwing gfrfs around forums is quite bullshit imo
08:23:07 <andythenorth> you are quite bullshit V453000
08:23:43 * andythenorth resists git trolling
08:23:45 <Supercheese> Eh, I have made it work
08:24:20 <Supercheese> I'm an engineer not a computer science major, so I doubt my use of any vcs will ever be required outside of hobby work
08:24:23 <kamnet> As much as I'd like it to be, not everybody wants to be nice and use bananas, and they're also not interested in registering on grfcrawler and keeping it updated. By moving it to the wiki, anybody who is interested in updating the info can do so.
08:24:26 <soupy> OK, so NUTS provides a new railtype after maglev, and has full FIRS compatibility, right?
08:24:32 <andythenorth> if I am recursing over a simple tree of switches, why do I care what the switch IDs are?
08:24:42 <V453000> NUTS has compatibility with any industry set
08:24:58 <V453000> and adds a bunch of universal tracks, and wetrail :>
08:25:18 <andythenorth> switch_1, switch_2 instead of switch_check_player, switch_check_road_ne
08:26:01 <andythenorth> then I don’t have to track the entry point
08:26:20 <Supercheese> Hmm, I doubt I can commit my current seaplane port to OGFX+ since I use MariCo sprites...
08:26:40 <Supercheese> need GPL-compatible sprites
08:27:46 <kamnet> Ask Quast65 if he still has the very first copies of the seaplane port. he had some dock-style sprites with it before he removed them all.
08:28:00 <Supercheese> yeah that's right
08:28:15 <Supercheese> that version of the grf is gone too
08:28:42 <kamnet> ask Owne to roll back the forum database ;-)
08:28:55 <Supercheese> although hmmm, can one grf use the sprites from another somehow...
08:29:06 <Supercheese> I know you can check for presence and do overrides and stuff
08:29:34 <kamnet> Do you really wanna tie the usage of your NewGRF to another NewGRF that isn't on Bananas?
08:29:53 <Supercheese> No, of course not, but if it's detected it could optionally use the sprites
08:30:03 <Supercheese> which makes for a very smooth integration and neat aesthetics
08:30:15 <Supercheese> but I doubt that is even possible
08:31:47 <kamnet> Shoot the sprites over to me, I'll draw some new ones that match the shape and size.
08:32:50 <Supercheese> Hmm, not a bad idea, there are only two sprites and they are mirrors of each other
08:33:22 <soupy> Well, if my choices are to pay $1.6 million a year for a maximum of 240km/h for FIRS transport, or try NUTS... I think I'ma go NUTS.
08:34:41 <kamnet> Huzaah, soupy! Pull the trigger
08:38:41 <planetmaker> Supercheese, as to airports: is there a natural (temporal) progression from the grass to the concrete representation or is it purely user choice?
08:38:55 * andythenorth wonders about futurism trains in Iron Horse
08:38:58 <Supercheese> It is currently just a user selection
08:39:20 <Supercheese> there is no automated transition, same as the Modern Small
08:39:34 <planetmaker> ah. I thought they would change at a certain date :) Modern and small are different sizes and layouts :)
08:40:07 <kamnet> A suggestion: pre-1930 is grass, 1930-1950 is asphalt, 1950+ concrete.
08:40:14 <planetmaker> I actually was surprised one could add more than 4 rotations, Supercheese :)
08:40:29 <Supercheese> errr? I based all of my changes on the existing small airport's modern layouts
08:40:32 <Supercheese> those were added ages ago
08:40:52 <planetmaker> Supercheese, and as to creating the previews, it's easy: build the airport ingame on the terrain, create a screenshot and cut the preview from the screenshot. That's how I created the different previews tailored to climate
08:41:06 <Supercheese> Yep, that is what I did, just really time consuming
08:41:43 <planetmaker> ok, I might mis-remember some details. And yes, I saw your changes. Just wondered how it worked (I didn't really read code)
08:42:21 <Supercheese> It works the same as those additions by Yexo
08:42:47 <DorpsGek> __ln__: Yexo was last seen in #openttd 2 years, 18 weeks, 3 days, 17 hours, 26 minutes, and 15 seconds ago: <Yexo> <NGC3982> The station glitches are CHIPS related. I adressed it to Andy the other day, and it seems like it's b0rked in some way. <- it's still in the issue tracker for CHIPS, but I haven't had time to look at it yet
08:42:58 <Supercheese> man, long-o time-o
08:43:33 <Supercheese> Anyway, the new airport variants do not have much in-game publicity
08:43:41 <Supercheese> you really have to know they are there and keep clicking the rotations
08:43:53 <Supercheese> perhaps some additional texts should hint to their existence
08:44:14 <kamnet> Indeed, I didn't know it until you brought it to my attention. I never thought to look past the 4th rotation
08:44:23 <Supercheese> I'll work on that next
08:45:07 <planetmaker> kk, no worries Supercheese :)
08:47:41 <planetmaker> Supercheese, either that. Or introduce them as separate airports
08:47:49 <Supercheese> that is just what I was thinking
08:48:05 <Supercheese> need to check how that would be best done
08:51:06 <Supercheese> Man, I'm never gonna get back to playing, just gonna keep adding more grf features XD
08:53:00 <supermop_> the tensile roof monorail station: what if the roof membrane was suspended below the wires?
08:56:39 <soupy> OK, so here's my proposed NewGRF listing for my new game: Vactrain set, av8, FIRS, original vehicle FIRS cargo, Squid Ate FISH, NUTS, PURR, YETI.
08:57:21 <Pikka> why "original vehicle FIRS cargo"? especially if you're using NUTS
08:57:30 <Pikka> go with road hog if you need a RV set :P
08:57:45 <soupy> Because new things scare me.
08:57:58 <soupy> I JUST WANT TO CLING TO WHAT I KNOW
08:58:12 <Pikka> also, personally, I recommend av9.8 rather than av8, but ymmv ;)
08:58:14 <soupy> OK, I'll remove the FIRS cargo thing.
08:58:37 <Supercheese> I am not even sure you can add a new airport entry
08:58:45 <soupy> I barely use planes anyhow, so that's not a big deal really.
08:59:37 <andythenorth> use eGRVTS not Road Hog
08:59:58 <Supercheese> it seems like you must have the override property set when you define a newgrf airport, but that means you can't add an entirely new entry
09:00:18 <andythenorth> it will be beta soon
09:00:30 <soupy> I just removed eGRVTS. Honestly I was tired of having too many choices.
09:00:31 <Pikka> you have to set the property so it knows which airport to copy the statemachine from
09:00:47 <Supercheese> but then you can't have two airports overriding the same airport both show up eh
09:00:48 <Pikka> but unless you set a certain bit it won't override the original, iirc?
09:01:09 <Pikka> that's my interpretation of the spec, I've never tried making new airports :P
09:01:31 <Supercheese> well adding more and more layouts has worked swimmingly
09:01:38 <Supercheese> but they are very poorly advertised
09:01:51 <Supercheese> an entirely new entry in the list would be far more obvious
09:03:01 <Pikka> the intro blurb talks about "property 8 or 9", but property 9 isn't listed :)
09:03:33 <soupy> OK, so Vacuum Tube set, av8, FIRS, Squid, NUTSPURRYETI.
09:04:11 <soupy> Any recommendations on settings changes so I don't fark myself over with inflation like last time?
09:04:23 <Supercheese> well, that's peculiar
09:04:23 <Pikka> if you like that sort of thing, soupy. Um.. turn inflation off? that's the main one. :)
09:04:41 <Supercheese> OTTD does not like a grf trying to set the name property on airports
09:06:36 <andythenorth> Pikka: so you have hogged? o_O
09:06:40 <kamnet> If eGRVTS is too many choices, might wanna try Hungarian Truck Set. Good variety, but not too many IMO.
09:07:00 <Pikka> I have hogged, but not in the last few days? are there updates?
09:07:13 <andythenorth> alpha-14 a few days ago
09:07:39 <soupy> Pikka, I'm still trying to wrap my head around the problem. i.e. why some trains were over a million per year, and some were 10k... and what the price /should/ be.
09:08:07 <soupy> I think starting in 1850 was a big problem. I got off to a very bad start.
09:08:40 <planetmaker> Supercheese, that's peculiar indeed
09:08:42 <Pikka> why some trains were over a million per year, and some were 10k <- well that can only be because of using multiple grfs, I expect.
09:08:50 <Supercheese> There is no property for Airport Class (Small, Large, Hub, Helicopter). I would think that defining a new airport would require such a property...
09:08:51 <Pikka> V's trains tend to be very cheap because he doesn't care about money :)
09:08:54 <kamnet> soupy, have you tried a 1950-2050 game yet?
09:09:29 <Supercheese> It is not enumerated in either wiki entry
09:09:36 <Pikka> there isn't, Supercheese :)
09:09:50 <soupy> kamnet: As long as NUTS will let me keep playing after 2050, I'd be quite happy.
09:09:52 <Pikka> I was thinking 0D, but... there you go :)
09:09:53 <planetmaker> Supercheese, the category is defined by the layout you choose (such by which airport it is)
09:10:03 <Supercheese> well yeah overriding
09:10:18 <V453000> NUTS works like 1700-forever :D
09:10:23 <V453000> even with expiring vehicles
09:10:56 <soupy> Well this should be fun then. I'ma just dive into these NUTS and see what happens.
09:11:24 <V453000> spoilers: mayhem happens
09:11:55 <Supercheese> Well... if you make one item entry for the Small airport, you need to use the override property... but then if you want to make another entry for a different type of Small airport, you'd have to set the override again... which invalidates your first changes
09:12:51 <soupy> Bugger it, starting in 1900 for a nice slow early-game.
09:13:16 * andythenorth fixes petrol-pump-on-slopes-issue
09:14:20 <planetmaker> hm... so how does it work, Supercheese ? :)
09:14:35 <Supercheese> well, I have added a new entry but cannot yet change its name
09:15:08 <planetmaker> not even with the name property?
09:15:18 <Supercheese> it complains when I use that
09:15:20 <planetmaker> oh, of course it will have to have its own ID
09:15:38 <Supercheese> says attempting to use invalid ID
09:16:16 <Supercheese> I may need to give the item block its own ID
09:16:27 <planetmaker> yes, that's what I mean
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09:18:49 <Supercheese> No, use of the name property still results in that invalid ID complaint, irrespective of automatic or manual item ID selection
09:19:03 <Supercheese> but removing the name property, all works pretty much fine
09:19:22 <Supercheese> I wonder if I need to update NML...
09:20:56 <Supercheese> yeah OTTD really hates the name property
09:22:04 <andythenorth> the circular tile check
09:22:08 <andythenorth> can I continue avoiding that?
09:22:12 <andythenorth> it’s not hard, just ugly
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09:26:15 <planetmaker> Supercheese, got a patch for me to check?
09:26:22 <planetmaker> the name property woes?
09:26:43 <Supercheese> I am investing main OTTD source, trying to see if there's something weird going on
09:28:48 <Pikka> andy: what does the search do?
09:29:08 <Pikka> the tile cheque, I mean
09:29:23 <Supercheese> but yeah, adding the name property to any airport causes an invalid ID error
09:32:22 <soupy> V453000: I just Googled "yeti dude uranium nuts".
09:32:28 <Supercheese> AddStringForMapping(buf->ReadWord(), &as->name);
09:32:42 <Supercheese> hmm, nothing seems out of place, but I don't know what the & is doing there
09:33:06 <soupy> So it looks like Yeti makes FIRS obsolete.
09:33:12 <andythenorth> Pikka: goes looking for houses nearby, allows building if it finds some
09:33:26 <V453000> you cant really have 2 concurrent industry sets
09:33:27 * andythenorth would be happy if FIRS was obsolete
09:33:44 <andythenorth> things need to die
09:34:15 <Pikka> just check town zone, near enough? ;)
09:34:29 <andythenorth> might be a good idea
09:35:14 <andythenorth> I've never used them
09:36:56 <Supercheese> not necessarily much more help there..
09:37:36 <Supercheese> "Roads are plain in zone 0 and 1, paved in zone 2, have trees in zone 3 and streetlights in zone 4 "
09:38:03 <Pikka> checking for any of them is probably enough. Leaving out TOWNZONE_EDGE if you don't want it right on the edge or in very small towns?
09:38:23 <planetmaker> Supercheese, got a quick patch, adding a new airport for me?
09:40:45 <andythenorth> Pikka: so which zone(s) to check for if I want to be near houses? o_O
09:41:11 <Pikka> any of them I should think
09:42:01 <Pikka> tile check might be the only way to guarantee that it's near houses
09:42:12 <andythenorth> don’t actually care that much
09:42:28 <Pikka> but I'd do some other distance-to-town check first just to narrow it down, so it's not doing the tile search everywhere.
09:42:40 <andythenorth> can’t remember even why the current code is the way it is
09:46:25 <Supercheese> if you want complete code I can paste that too
09:47:06 <Supercheese> I have also tried taking unpatched OGFX+ airports and only trying to add the name property to one of the existing airports, and that also results in errors
09:48:22 * andythenorth wonders if there is TOWN_ZONE_NONE
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09:48:54 <chillcore> good mmorning interwebz o/
09:49:23 <kamnet> Supercheese, PM for ya
09:54:45 <kamnet> I've not tested that next to a land mass or newobject surface, so no idea how it lines up though. May need to make it slightly ramped
09:57:12 <Supercheese> They blend well enough with MariCo docks
09:57:29 <Supercheese> but yeah the pillars are shorter
09:57:34 <Supercheese> so a ramp may be helpful
09:57:56 <Supercheese> planetmaker: Yes, NML compiles fine but OTTD complains when loading the grf in a new game
09:58:10 <Supercheese> sorry if that wasn't clear
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09:59:10 <Supercheese> oh shoot I am running a patched version, I hope that wasn't causing the issues
09:59:22 <Supercheese> I forget I am doing so :S let me grab nightly
09:59:52 <andythenorth> editor find-replace somehow reverted a file to a much older version :o
10:00:09 <planetmaker> hm, strange, Supercheese... the version here doesn't barf either
10:00:30 <Supercheese> I keep forgetting the version I use is not trunk T__T
10:00:42 <Supercheese> this has happened before :|
10:01:08 <planetmaker> what *do* you use?
10:01:35 <Supercheese> r27220M, with several personal modifications
10:02:24 <Supercheese> ah, it is still complaining in r27221
10:02:43 <planetmaker> what does it complain about?
10:03:12 <Supercheese> A fatal NewGRF error has occurred: Attempt to use invalid ID (sprite 9933)
10:07:43 <planetmaker> right. I cannot reproduce that. Not with current OpenTTD head nor with r27124
10:07:59 <Supercheese> well, I use the precompiled Windows NML
10:08:12 <Supercheese> perhaps that has something to do with it
10:08:27 <planetmaker> 0.4.0.r5576:84560317b163 from 2015-04-08
10:09:06 <planetmaker> you probably should file a bug with NML with the complete patch of ogfx-airports you have
10:09:22 <planetmaker> or better a minimal patch which creates the broken grf
10:16:13 <planetmaker> Supercheese, you might want to try whether my patch works for you (use hg import)
10:53:28 <andythenorth> default values hide mis-spelt keyword args :P
10:54:43 <andythenorth> 6 out of 66 FIRS industries converted :P
10:56:44 * andythenorth has run out of tertiaries
10:56:51 <andythenorth> tertiaries are easy, no production :P
10:58:16 <andythenorth> kamnet: hotels near houses, rather than near center of towns yes/no?
11:00:02 <planetmaker> andythenorth, just anywhere near / in towns is fine
11:00:31 <andythenorth> it’s now seeking houses
11:00:37 <andythenorth> as that check exists and can be used
11:00:48 <andythenorth> no more resort hotels 8 tiles from town, mind :P
11:01:21 <planetmaker> resorts can be right in the middle of nowhere :)
11:02:41 * andythenorth compares before/after
11:02:46 <andythenorth> single-industry compiling ftw
11:04:06 <andythenorth> 16 seconds with primed caches, not 3 mins
11:04:12 <andythenorth> dunno about this hotels rule
11:04:21 <andythenorth> looks nice when they’re out of town
11:06:30 <andythenorth> how about hotels just anywhere? o_O
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12:41:06 <Pikka> in other news, it helps if you remember to put the increment in your while loop :)
12:45:54 <SpComb> thankfully python doesn't have loops with increments
12:46:06 <supermop_> hotels everywhere sounds fine to me
12:46:14 <supermop_> more hotel layouts too
12:57:29 <supermop_> spaceframes really don't look good in tt world
12:57:46 <supermop_> thin, light structures in general just look odd
13:04:29 <chillcore> the crowd (in the vid) will shut up and shake booty ;)
13:05:35 * chillcore shakes booty ... ouch
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15:16:19 <Xaroth|Work> SpComb: enumerate()?
15:25:08 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
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15:33:44 <SpComb> Xaroth|Work: exactly, it has a better approach, and you don't need to write out any explicit increments
15:39:13 <supermop_> writing posts after 700ml bottle of 9% ale not a great idea
15:45:59 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds unhealthy
15:47:26 <supermop_> have a tuatara double trouble andy
15:48:45 <chillcore> supemop: 2 mussels went for fries. coathanger. <- if you are not rolling on the floor right now ... you can has another :P
15:49:42 <Eddi|zuHause> keep your measles for yourself
15:50:19 <supermop_> hmm i actually have met very few germans who like bivalves
15:50:45 <Eddi|zuHause> what's a bivalve?
15:51:00 <supermop_> i've also met no germans from parts of germany near where bivalves live
15:51:15 <supermop_> mussel or clam or oyster
15:51:56 <supermop_> growing up in the midwest, i generally also met almost no one who really liked oysters or mussels
15:52:06 <supermop_> scallops yes for some reason
15:52:17 <Eddi|zuHause> well, most seafood has the trouble of being really salty
15:52:41 <supermop_> chillcore: unfortunately its all gone!
15:52:54 <supermop_> ber came with free 3d glassed though
15:53:42 <Eddi|zuHause> wasn't there a futurama intro slide with "now in beervision"?
15:54:17 <chillcore> I have not seen enough episodes to know that ...
15:54:44 <Eddi|zuHause> my google skills fail me on this one
15:55:18 <supermop_> that's what i was drinking
15:55:50 <supermop_> 3d glasses did not fit over my regular glasses though
15:57:08 <supermop_> man this guy really loves the jinty
15:57:22 <supermop_> i only had tto i can can barely remember it
15:58:25 <Eddi|zuHause> man, i'm like a week behind in forum posts
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16:06:23 <Faintful> I was wondering how I can enable Cargodist on a dedicated server
16:06:33 <Faintful> I can't find the options in the config
16:07:50 <planetmaker> then look again :)
16:08:27 <Eddi|zuHause> they might have the phrase "linkgraph" in them
16:08:32 <planetmaker> but look for the section [linkgraph]
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16:14:41 <Faintful> Can I ask one more question? If I have a server with newGRF's installed, will players that connect be able to use them without downloading them seperately?
16:15:54 <Pikka> if the newgrfs are on bananas, they'll be able to click a button to download everything they need
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16:16:30 <Faintful> But it won't download automatically from the server?
16:16:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i guess the answer you're looking for is: "no". the players have to download the NewGRFs, and the server cannot distribute them
16:16:51 <planetmaker> no. They cannot connect to the server, if they don't have those used by the savegame
16:17:09 <planetmaker> but the server join dialogue offers to download missing from bananas
16:17:18 <planetmaker> thus: use only bananas-fied ones
16:17:19 <Faintful> It does that automatically?
16:17:25 <planetmaker> no. but it's one click
16:17:31 <Faintful> Yeah, I do only download ones from content.openttd.org :)
16:17:31 <planetmaker> did you never play online yourself? Try it!
16:17:36 <Eddi|zuHause> no, you have to click a button to download
16:17:38 <planetmaker> before you setup a server yourself
16:17:51 <planetmaker> you use web download?!
16:17:52 <Faintful> I was setting up a cool server for me and my friend, but we haven't had the time to test it out yet
16:17:57 <planetmaker> how pretty uncool :)
16:18:10 <planetmaker> use ingame content download :)
16:18:59 <Faintful> I should change my download path then :p
16:19:27 <chillcore> no when creating the server with newGRF that are on bananas and start a game
16:20:12 <Faintful> Oh yeah, I'm using a dedicated server!
16:20:14 <Faintful> Forgot to mention that :p
16:20:35 <planetmaker> yes... use rcon :P
16:20:52 <Eddi|zuHause> thre's a console interface for the content download
16:21:05 <planetmaker> but there it might be easier to get them locally and copy them to the dedicated server, if you don't use them all
16:21:34 <Faintful> I'm only using a select few indeed, there's so many options!
16:22:17 <planetmaker> the console interface sadly is not straight forward for that. Luckily soap knows how to handle it and only thing I need is !content :)
16:22:42 <Faintful> Ahhh, I read about soap ye
16:22:57 <Faintful> Btw guys, I set up my Cargodist! It was indeed linkgraph I had to find.. stupid me
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16:28:05 <soupy> Faintful: Is linkgraph the one that shows you the pretty graphs on who wants to go where?
16:30:24 <planetmaker> no(t directly). But when cargodist is active, that linkgraph can be toggled ingame to assess the cargo flow
16:31:19 <planetmaker> depends on what you call 'the linkgraph' really. Technically the UI shows what cargodist uses to distribute stuff
16:36:45 <Faintful> The linkgraph settings also allow you to change the distribution from manual to symetric
16:37:31 <Faintful> Why is it as a player possible for me to alter the settings? For example the AI's? Is there an extra setting I have to enable for that to be impossible?
16:39:15 <Faintful> Something is very wrong with th eautosave setting in 1.5! It doesn't matter to what you set it, it still saves monthly
16:39:59 <Eddi|zuHause> are you sure you set it in the right place?
16:40:15 <Faintful> I definitely set it to yearly
16:40:18 <Eddi|zuHause> invalid settings will be converted to the default value
16:41:51 <Faintful> I'll test it once more, copied the setting from the local config
16:43:05 <Faintful> Well, for some reason the local autosave overruled the server autosave
16:44:22 <Eddi|zuHause> the local autosave saves on your local computer, and the server autosave saves on the server. there is no connection between these two features and they can be set to different intervals
16:44:53 <Eddi|zuHause> if the server irrevocably crashes, you can create a new server from your local autosave
16:45:05 <Eddi|zuHause> or irrecoverably
16:47:50 <planetmaker> there are game settings, there are mapgen settings, gui settings and client-side settings :)
16:47:55 <planetmaker> and server-side settings
16:47:57 <Faintful> I'm running the server on my computer so I think they get confused
16:48:14 <planetmaker> that depends on which configs they use
16:48:21 <planetmaker> thus how exactly you run them
16:48:38 <Eddi|zuHause> two programs writing to the same autosave folder might be troublesome
16:48:48 <Eddi|zuHause> also, using the same config file
16:49:16 <planetmaker> you can run without clash dozens of openttd servers on the same physical machine. Just make sure, they reside in separate dirs, have their own config files and own savegame paths
16:49:47 <planetmaker> ^ whether that is a good thing performance-wise, is another discussion (it's not)
16:50:26 <Faintful> Why is it a hit on performance?
16:57:07 <soupy> Sweet! Pindtown now accepts <invalid cargo>. Now just to find an <invalid cargo factory>.
17:02:52 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what you get for switching newgrfs ingame
17:03:15 <Celestar> planetmaker: if you got 16 cores around ..
17:06:22 <soupy> Eddi|zuHause: I didn't switch NewGRFs ingame though. I literally just genned this world.
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17:24:52 * andythenorth wonders why FIRS has two colour schemes
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17:33:40 <planetmaker> soupy, then you use possibly Japanese (town?) NewGRF. Some versions of it are broken
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17:47:01 <soupy> planetmaker: Nope, never used that one.
17:47:50 <planetmaker> well, then obviously some other
17:50:34 <soupy> It was really just a test map to play with cargodist and the linkgraphs.
17:51:40 <soupy> Though I would like to know if something is borked with this set before I start a real game.
17:53:49 <soupy> I hate to say it, but I think I'm going to forego Yeti.
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18:28:05 * andythenorth regrets the loss of ffwd
18:28:16 <andythenorth> testing industry production is…less fun now
18:28:50 <Alberth> build sufficiently next to each other ?
18:29:06 <andythenorth> still takes time to get to the end of the month ;)
18:41:08 <andythenorth> what’s the switch ID limit?
18:49:01 <Eddi|zuHause> where NML needs some for its own purposes
18:49:14 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the number of nested levels of switches
18:49:36 <Eddi|zuHause> you can have more switches if they are not nested
18:49:54 <andythenorth> action 2 registers?
18:50:23 <Eddi|zuHause> hilarious youtube videos?
18:50:43 <andythenorth> hmm 127 is “not a lot”
18:50:53 <Eddi|zuHause> there should be 256 as well
18:51:26 <Eddi|zuHause> but i never actually used those
18:51:49 <Eddi|zuHause> except for the specia ones above 0x100
18:52:23 <Eddi|zuHause> ... need to go shopping. apparently it's been another week
18:54:22 * andythenorth wonders what happens if a processing industry doesn’t have input_multiplier_1 defined
18:54:32 <andythenorth> is the default value sensibly 0?
18:54:53 <andythenorth> or I could cargo-cult in setting all these props to 0,0
18:54:54 <Eddi|zuHause> rule number one: there are no sensible defaults
18:55:01 * andythenorth cargo-cults the 0s
18:55:24 <Eddi|zuHause> default values are either copies of the original industry, or 0
18:55:45 <Eddi|zuHause> and in either case, probably not what you want
18:56:20 <andythenorth> 0 is the desired value :)
18:57:15 <Eddi|zuHause> still, you need to set that explicitly
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19:08:22 <andythenorth> returning 400 in nml to industry text cb
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19:09:12 <andythenorth> can’t see a constant for 400
19:09:26 <andythenorth> CB_FAILED exists, but apparently I shouldn’t be failing the industry window text cb
19:10:22 <andythenorth> ¿ can I return TTD_STR_CARGO_PLURAL_NOTHING
19:13:42 <frosch123> andythenorth: CB_RESULT_NO_TEXT
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19:49:41 <Wolf01> my poor coworker... he needs to change the tires of his car, buy the pellet for the next winter, buy more lego, go to the dentist, buy more lego, go to Legoland with the ITlug members, buy more lego...
20:02:00 <Samu> what is that bug report I reported that you closed?
20:02:05 <Samu> where can i still find it?
20:02:34 <planetmaker> you find it in the same place as before. Just search for the closed issues or all
20:03:42 <frosch123> isn't it already implemented for trains?
20:03:54 <planetmaker> doesn't look like
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20:05:14 <planetmaker> (if your viewport is 1980x1200 :P)
20:05:51 <Alberth> please add a . to /* Use the speed as limited by underground and orders */
20:06:40 <Samu> do i have to request re-open again?
20:07:43 <Alberth> you think we will fix invalid problems?
20:07:55 <frosch123> planetmaker: ah, "max speed of current order" is what i remembered
20:08:02 <frosch123> bridge is new, even though it is older :p
20:08:57 <planetmaker> Honestly, I only checked for trains that it works. But the code in the other functions of CurrentMaxSpeed suggests it will work for the other vehicle types then, too
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20:10:01 <Samu> not perfect, but it's something
20:10:57 <frosch123> planetmaker: max_speed = min(max_speed, this->current_order.GetMaxSpeed()); <- there are more redundant lines
20:11:47 <planetmaker> true. Will remove those three, frosch123
20:12:19 <frosch123> Train::GetCurrentMaxSpeed also handles the tack_speed
20:12:28 <frosch123> so, the train case is only about stopping
20:13:38 <frosch123> looks fine to me :)
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20:17:51 <DorpsGek> Commit by planetmaker :: r27222 trunk/src/vehicle.cpp (2015-04-09 20:17:43 +0200 )
20:17:52 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6278]: Use the current maximum speed as limited by bridges, orders etc. for all vehicle types alike when considering increased smoke emissions of vehicles.
20:32:52 * andythenorth shaves the yak some more
20:32:57 <Samu> sometimes when I disable full animation in the debug version i get an error
20:33:04 <Samu> Unhandled exception at 0x00000001407BCB8B in openttd.exe: 0xC0000005: Access violation reading location 0x0000000003EE3000.
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20:33:36 <Samu> > openttd.exe!Blitter_32bppAnim::PaletteAnimate(const Palette & palette={...}) Line 484 C++
20:34:39 <Samu> it's been doing this ever since I started meddling with msvc
20:34:59 <Samu> it's just that it doesn't always happen, it's random
20:38:49 <fonsinchen> Samu, attach the msvc debugger to it, wait until it happens and check the stack trace.
20:39:49 <Samu> oh, erm, okay, I'll try to do that, not familiar with those words
20:42:11 <Samu> DEBUG - Attack to process?
20:42:20 <Samu> which one is the msvc debugger?
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20:48:15 <Alberth> I could suggest how, but you don't want to know
20:49:07 <Alberth> at least that's what you said
20:56:02 <Samu> meh, what can i do with iths
20:58:53 <Samu> > openttd.exe!Blitter_32bppAnim::PaletteAnimate(const Palette & palette={...}) Line 484 C++
20:59:53 <Samu> how do i pass this error to a file or so?
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21:03:12 <Eddi|zuHause> imagine how mad they get when a cat goes into the wrong box
21:04:44 <Samu> ok, i have the dump file, is this sufficient?
21:05:02 <Samu> quite big, even compressed
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21:25:06 <glx> Samu: open the dump in with msvc
21:28:49 <Samu> there's 3 actions: Debug with Native Only
21:29:57 <Samu> ah, it brought me to the unhandled exception
21:30:27 <glx> then you have the call stack
21:30:53 <Samu> i see it at the bottom middle, yes
21:33:35 <andythenorth> quite a lot of FIRS secondary industries feature ‘boost'
21:33:42 <andythenorth> and quite a lot of them have totally wrong values
21:34:13 <andythenorth> all that effort delivering all required cargos
21:34:18 <andythenorth> in some cases, for zero benefit :)
21:35:56 <Alberth> good thing I usually never bother with supplies :p
21:36:32 <Samu> i'm sending the dump to onedrive
21:39:56 <kamnet> Zero benefit, andythenorth? Why?
21:41:58 <andythenorth> because the boost value is set to 0 or otherwise too low
21:42:03 <andythenorth> only in a few cases
21:44:45 <kamnet> I like them because it keeps me busy, but if they're not really needed I'm sure I could dedicate those resources elsewhere.
21:45:20 <andythenorth> the bug will be fixed in FIRS 2
21:46:33 <andythenorth> it’s a Mad World
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22:26:05 <V453000> short post for dem forumz
22:26:35 <andythenorth> can haz workflow
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23:21:25 <Supercheese> Aah, managed to get Farm Supplies and Engineering Supplies to every requesting industry on the map
23:21:56 <frosch123> send the save to andy :)
23:22:02 <frosch123> he doesn't believe its possible
23:22:15 <Supercheese> I use a lot of airships
23:22:36 <frosch123> andy loves ships? :p
23:22:43 <Supercheese> also it's only a 256x512 map
23:23:22 <kamnet> FLAP - FIRS Loves AeroPlanes :D
23:23:24 <Supercheese> oh wait I missed one
23:24:28 <kamnet> Left you another PM Supercheese
23:26:26 <Supercheese> Well, Av8 has 4 seaplanes, two of which are amphibious and can fit either floats or wheeled gear
23:26:46 <Supercheese> but the most famous, the various models of Pan Am Clipper, are absent
23:34:29 <kamnet> We need MOAR SEAPLANES
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23:37:29 <kamnet> *ponders* If planes have floats on them can we animate water spray when they land?
23:38:49 <frosch123> most likely you can in the same way as fish
23:39:19 <frosch123> planes know when they land, pikka used that for the inclination for years
23:39:41 <Supercheese> Yeah should be possible
23:40:04 <Supercheese> If you can draw it, it can be coded is generally the rule. Generally.
23:53:50 <Supercheese> I think I know why I was having issues with the name property last night, it needs to be defined AFTER the override property
23:54:06 <Supercheese> may need to edit the wiki to clarify that
23:55:32 <frosch123> the override property should say very clearly, that it must be the first one :p
23:55:46 <Supercheese> it now seems obvious but it was not immediately so
23:55:53 <frosch123> it's nothing special about the name, it's special about the substitute/override :p
23:56:08 <Supercheese> was too sleepy to figure that one out last night -_-
23:56:43 <planetmaker> nml should probably re-arrange that silently
23:56:52 <planetmaker> yet it doesn't (yet) do so
23:56:58 <frosch123> not possible with "if" and stuff :p
23:57:07 <Supercheese> Yep, confirmed that was the problem
23:57:11 <Supercheese> override must needs be set first
23:58:34 <Supercheese> Well, I will probably migrate the newly added airports to their own entries
23:58:40 <Supercheese> get them better exposure
23:59:18 <frosch123> same applies for stations, industries, industry tiles and houses :p
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