IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-04-04
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00:03:03 <Eddi|zuHause> "higher mountains that you've ever seen before"? ... except for anybody who played a patchpack in the last 5 years
00:03:34 <frosch123> thanks for volunteering to write the next news :)
00:09:19 <Eddi|zuHause> if it were still april 1st, i'd say "sure."
00:10:51 <frosch123> anyway, the news post does not address patchpack players
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00:11:09 <frosch123> no patchpack player noticed how broken mhl was
00:11:16 <frosch123> it only took a few days of nightly to notice
00:11:34 <frosch123> yet no nightly player noticed that ais were broken for non-english language
00:11:45 <frosch123> it only took one day for stable players to notice
00:12:20 <frosch123> that makes the news post address two magnitudes more people than patchpack players
00:12:42 <frosch123> so, i think it's pretty accurate
00:14:11 <Eddi|zuHause> well, ANY news is just horribly inaccurate if you are deep into the subject involved
00:15:09 <frosch123> yup, that's why i was never at cebit :p
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00:42:44 <larzconwell> I'm trying to make an armored vehicle "Go To" a gold mine, but I can't click anywhere at the gold mine to trigger the route
00:43:30 <ST2> larzconwell: you need to build a truck station
00:43:33 <Eddi|zuHause> you need to build a station
00:44:20 <Eddi|zuHause> make sure it's a truck station, not a bus station
00:44:33 <ST2> \o/ I won the contest "i cna tpye 200 wodrs a mintue"
00:44:38 <larzconwell> Eddi|zuHause: Yeah I did, got it working now
00:49:23 <chillcore> I fell asleep and was on a trip with *mumble* and *mumble*, there was this fair too, then someone I did not expect to see at all called my name and I woke up ...
00:49:50 <chillcore> AIs are broken in my patchpack?
00:50:36 <chillcore> it my third Ieye I guess ...
00:50:37 <Supercheese> AIs are broken by many things
00:50:48 <frosch123> chillcore: did noai exist back then?
00:51:18 <frosch123> noai exists since 2009/2010
00:51:19 <chillcore> because my previous patchpack had the patch still
00:51:24 <frosch123> no idea when chillin was a thing :p
00:51:43 <chillcore> and I used my own AI all the time to build roads for me
00:51:46 <frosch123> hmm, it was chillpp, not chillin, right?
00:53:25 <chillcore> still half asleep ...
00:53:36 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: chillpp basically died during development of 1.2, when grfv8 was introduced
00:53:40 <chillcore> I saw mhl mentioned ... must have been that
00:54:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i suppose noai was before 1.0
00:55:16 <Eddi|zuHause> chillpp was forked in the 1.0/1.1 era
00:56:21 <chillcore> somewhen around that time ..; 1.0.5 savegames load
00:57:17 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah. it couldn't load 1.1 savegames
00:58:05 <Eddi|zuHause> which should have been a fairly easy fix, btw. just nobody ever looked into it
00:58:43 <chillcore> I waited a few revisions to long maybe
00:59:08 <chillcore> also there is a ton of things to change due to one of the commits
00:59:37 <chillcore> +60000 lines of patchpack is not something you check in 30 mins
01:02:14 <Eddi|zuHause> that probably means never :p
01:02:57 <chillcore> it is not that I do not want to do so
01:02:59 <frosch123> i guess we are saturated with pp currently :)
01:03:04 <frosch123> i think there are at least 3
01:03:10 <chillcore> I tried like 4 times
01:03:35 <chillcore> peeps were just not doing it no more
01:04:00 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not about the amount of patchpacks...
01:04:05 <frosch123> haha, yeah, the communityin was a big success :p
01:06:32 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway. besides daylength, the most requested feature for patchpacks i see is 24h clock and timetable management (for the hardcore synchronous netowrk managers) and "fire and forget" type of autoseparation for everybody else
01:07:27 <Eddi|zuHause> and all the patchpacks around totally fail at multiplayer
01:07:41 <chillcore> yeah I guess those are the major request for now
01:07:59 <frosch123> you forgot copy&paste :)
01:08:30 <frosch123> template based autoreplace was my favorite, but then i switched to playing shorter games
01:08:31 <Eddi|zuHause> that doesn't come up that often...
01:08:35 <Supercheese> a small but vocal subset also advocates custom bridgeheads
01:08:42 <frosch123> so i haven't used autoreplace at all in quite some time
01:08:49 <Supercheese> template autoreplace was quite nice
01:08:55 <chillcore> indeed I kept forgetting I had copypaste in at all
01:09:12 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah. someone should really review cirdan's patches, even if he refuses to cooperate...
01:09:31 <chillcore> he said I could do it and get them in trunk no prob
01:09:43 <frosch123> trunk is busy with other stuff :p
01:09:54 <chillcore> yah fixing MHL ... grrr
01:10:02 <frosch123> anyway, custom bridgeheads are only suggested by people who know them from ttdp
01:10:05 <Eddi|zuHause> it feels like a lot of good work is wasted if it's not done
01:10:14 <frosch123> they are no thing that anyone new comes up with
01:10:21 <frosch123> copy&paste is far more common there
01:11:08 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i have never played custom bridgeheads in ttdp, and frequently think "i could build this better with cbh". especially for roads
01:11:59 <frosch123> chillcore: it's more like everyone is filled up with keeping grfcodec, nml, opengfx and zbase alive
01:12:16 <frosch123> i.e. just yesterday someone posted some fixes to ogfx on the forums
01:12:20 <frosch123> ogfx is still not released
01:12:26 <frosch123> and everybody is asking about zbase
01:12:34 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: yes, like rail sunken 1 level in a city, with road bridges over it, but a road is running parallel to the tracks as well
01:12:40 <frosch123> but before all of that, nml needs fixes to the packaing :p
01:12:44 <Supercheese> signals in tunnels/bridges is also nice
01:12:58 <frosch123> so, it's more like noone has time to work on ottd :p
01:13:29 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: always needs some weird curves around the bridge heads, where running straight across would look and behave better
01:14:07 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: i'm deeply opposed to that terrible implementation of signals on bridges/in tunnels that is floating around
01:15:05 <Supercheese> I am not aware of the details, but the concept is desirable
01:15:14 <Supercheese> long bridges/tunnels ruin signal spacing schemes
01:15:29 <Supercheese> implementation may indeed be sorely lacking in finesse
01:15:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: yes, but that implementation doesn't even fix that...
01:15:48 <chillcore> frosch: I totally understand and I am not pointing fingers, it is just that now you can add unplayabl terrain to that list
01:16:05 <chillcore> but again ... I understand
01:16:13 <chillcore> no time to test and shizz
01:17:16 <chillcore> I can help somewhere?
01:17:38 <chillcore> going to read back now
01:18:52 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: "always" :p
01:19:03 <frosch123> like only for short and flat bridges
01:19:17 <frosch123> it's irrelevant the longer the bridges become
01:19:25 <frosch123> and it does not affect sloped bridges at all
01:19:37 <Samu> when i'm letting the game randomly create a new industry, it is not using the code at line 1889 of industry_cmd.cpp
01:19:40 <frosch123> and as we all know, outside this channel noone plays on smaller than 1kx1k
01:19:50 <Samu> it's using some other part of the code
01:19:51 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: yes, "always" under the conditions stated above (plus 'better roads' layout)
01:20:26 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: for all we know, nobody in this channel plays at all :p
01:20:37 <Samu> if (deity_prospect || (_game_mode != GM_EDITOR && _current_company != OWNER_DEITY && _settings_game.construction.raw_industry_construction == 2 && indspec->IsRawIndustry())) {
01:21:54 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, there was talk about a lunar eclipse... is that visible here?
01:22:10 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: lunar eclipses only happen at full moon
01:22:39 <Eddi|zuHause> the moon was almost full last time i looked
01:23:06 <Eddi|zuHause> and the solar eclipse was 2 weeks ago
01:23:31 <frosch123> full moon was today 14:05
01:24:10 <frosch123> anyway, lunar eclipses happen about once a year
01:24:24 <frosch123> no relation to solar eclipses
01:24:24 <Eddi|zuHause> so you see them every 2 years
01:24:38 <Eddi|zuHause> since half of the time, it will be day
01:24:58 <Eddi|zuHause> solar eclipses happen about as often
01:25:08 <Eddi|zuHause> just they are only visible from very small areas
01:26:00 <frosch123> partial eclipses are visible from a vast area
01:27:23 <frosch123> "Im 21. Jahrhundert finden insgesamt 224 Sonnenfinsternisse statt. Dies sind gegenüber dem langjährigen Durchschnittswert von 238 Sonnenfinsternissen pro Jahrhundert relativ wenige."
01:28:42 <Eddi|zuHause> it's an easy statistical thought experiment that eclipses during full moon and eclipses during new moon happen at about the same chance
01:30:36 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: the "230" figure probably includes partial eclipses where no point on earth can see a full eclipse
01:32:45 <frosch123> if you add "total" and "ring", you get 140 proper ones
01:35:32 <Samu> do you know of a script that has a OWNER_DEITY prospecting an industry?
01:35:50 <Samu> citybuilder actually funds industries, not prospects them
01:36:43 <Eddi|zuHause> so that basically confirms what i said. slightly more than one per year
01:42:00 <chillcore> chunnels and programmable signals would be nice to have too
01:42:15 <chillcore> and the option to not have trains go for the back of one-way signals
01:42:51 <Eddi|zuHause> loads of things would be "nice to have"
01:42:56 <frosch123> isn't the latter that weird coop signal setting?
01:43:13 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: no, that is twoway_eol
01:43:26 <Eddi|zuHause> or firstred_twoway_eol
01:43:35 <chillcore> no it is more like: if this signal is green turn that one on the other side of the map red
01:43:44 <chillcore> without using rails
01:44:23 <chillcore> very basic programming but much neater then the way it is done now
01:44:39 <Eddi|zuHause> chillcore: "latter" == "the last one" [vs. "former" == "the first one"]
01:45:42 <Eddi|zuHause> <chillcore> and the option to not have trains go for the back of one-way signals <-- question was about this line
01:46:10 <chillcore> I ws not refering to that ... my bad
01:46:28 <Eddi|zuHause> [at least that was how i read it]
01:46:49 <chillcore> sorry for not being specific enough
01:47:42 <chillcore> such a weird dream ...
01:49:55 <chillcore> <Eddi|zuHause> <chillcore> and the option to not have trains go for the back of one-way signals <-- question was about this line
01:51:00 <chillcore> I find that trains considering the back of a one-way pbs signal a safe waiting point breaks my playstyle
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01:51:17 <chillcore> I disable turning around at signals so I get deadlocks
01:51:22 <Eddi|zuHause> chillcore: only if trains get lost...
01:51:43 <chillcore> also if there is no other route free at that moment
01:52:18 <Eddi|zuHause> chillcore: please isolate a situation where it happens and post a savegame to flyspray
01:52:51 <chillcore> I may be able to find that FS ticket still
01:52:59 <chillcore> and may create a savegame yes
01:55:32 <Eddi|zuHause> chillcore: the pathfinder should discard routes that involve a back of a one-way-signal [aka end of line], if there is a valid path.
01:56:27 <chillcore> it may have changed ... I'll have a quick test
01:57:06 <Eddi|zuHause> chillcore: there are some valid situations where back of a one-way-signal should be treated as end of line. i remember discussions about allowing or disallowing this in the past, but i don't remebmer the outcome
01:58:01 <Eddi|zuHause> especially there were discrepancy between behaviour of block signals and path signals
01:59:19 <chillcore> I remember the talk ... some of it ... then I added that in my patchpâck and forgot about it
01:59:56 <chillcore> when I load one of my old savegames trains are still waiting to never be allowed to advance because back of one-way
02:00:30 <chillcore> but I'll test a new game ... first checking config to see if turn time is at 255
02:02:27 <Eddi|zuHause> chillcore: there is now a separate setting for "never turn around at signals"
02:02:55 <Eddi|zuHause> it should be in the GUI
02:03:07 <Eddi|zuHause> (at least that was the point of adding the setting)
02:03:40 <chillcore> path_backoff_interval?
02:04:07 <Eddi|zuHause> chillcore: that is the interval which a train waits before checking whether the signal is green again
02:04:42 <chillcore> oh ok ... I'll check the gui Eddi|zuHause
02:05:08 <chillcore> probably easier ... my congig has all kinds of non trunk settings
02:05:54 <Eddi|zuHause> who are you telling that. my openttd always complains about invalid setting "weekly" for autosave interval :p
02:06:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i even got a patch into trunk that fixed "use the default value instead of disabling the setting completely"
02:12:24 <chillcore> looking at flyspray now to find that ticket ... I had a minimal setup to reproduce the waiting forever thinghy
02:21:11 <supermop> i wonder what the best way to make these tracks dingy would bee
02:21:38 <supermop> im thinking ad a translucent surface over the concrete
02:27:14 <chillcore> here it is Eddi|zuHause #FS3908
02:39:30 <chillcore> tracks dingy? what is that exactly supermop?
02:40:05 <chillcore> ah ok ... yeah layer maybe
02:40:14 <supermop> like grime, oil, dirt around the concrete in bottom of platform bay
02:40:23 <chillcore> the you can have more of them and combine ;)
02:40:44 <chillcore> animated rats I hope :P
02:40:53 <supermop> i miss watching the subway rats
02:42:22 <chillcore> we don't have subways here ... plenty of riverbeds though
02:46:07 <efess> is there a way to query if the game is currently paused with rcon/console?
02:47:01 <Eddi|zuHause> river bed is the thing under the river :p
02:47:24 <Eddi|zuHause> river bank is the thing on the side of the river :p
02:48:05 <Eddi|zuHause> efess: sounds like something the admin port should be able to do?
02:48:33 <efess> that would be even better :D
02:48:46 <supermop> experimenting with what goes between two tracks in a station
02:49:02 <chillcore> yeah then it is banks Eddi|zuHause, thank you
02:49:11 <chillcore> supermop: a crocodile
02:49:14 <supermop> in real life i normally just see flat concrete but that looks boring in renders
02:49:38 <supermop> so thinking of gutter or raised area
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02:50:01 <supermop> yes in the subway it is full of cable conduit, signals, etc
02:50:14 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: sound-damping equipment?
02:50:38 <supermop> what do you mean eddi?
02:50:48 <supermop> like acoustical foam?
02:50:53 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: like i think in berlin main station (lower part) they have that
02:51:12 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: some square thingies with a riffled surface
02:51:54 <supermop> maybe i'll wait until openttd townsfolk complain about the noise!
02:52:26 <supermop> sometimes you see a fence to discourage people from running across tracks
02:52:50 <supermop> but i've only seen that at low platforms in rural areas on with light rail
02:53:12 <supermop> gutter has the same issue as TTD style monorail: the negative space at edge of tile
02:53:42 <supermop> could have the gutter end in a tall drain grate at tile edge
02:53:52 <supermop> but then you get too many drains
02:54:36 <Eddi|zuHause> these are all things the original zoom levels can just fudge over :p
02:55:01 <supermop> and just a few pixels noise and let the imagination fill in!
02:55:46 <supermop> the plain base set concrete tile would look fine as station rail bed in 1x zoom
02:56:19 <supermop> the monorail still has me in a dilemma
02:57:03 <supermop> there are few enough EZ monorail tracks out there i feel like i could get away with breaking the rules and do TTO style
02:57:21 <supermop> but TTD style has its dubious benefits
02:58:11 <supermop> in that it looks better with uniform platform heights, can have a monorail train be 'tall' without being too tall...
02:58:46 <supermop> masking the negative tile edge will be a real pain though
02:59:15 <Eddi|zuHause> well, imho monorail should be taller than normal rails, because the train is meant to "grab" around it, instead of running on top of it
02:59:39 <supermop> TTO style would need offsets to be changed for existing trains if going to tto style
02:59:58 <supermop> irl a modern alweg beam is 1500mm tall
03:00:02 <Eddi|zuHause> well, the transrapid track set fudges around it
03:00:08 <supermop> plus clearance beneath
03:00:57 <supermop> modern monorails are about twice as tall as regular trains if you count the part below the train floor that goes around the beam
03:01:25 <supermop> german company that invented the concrete beam monorail and was later bought by hitachi
03:02:04 <Eddi|zuHause> most people underestimate the height of trains, because they think of them as from the platform up, or when inside from the floor to the roof
03:02:30 <supermop> they have a small version used in seattle, disney, and tokyo monorail line
03:02:45 <supermop> but all newer ones since the 80s are very tall
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03:03:01 <Eddi|zuHause> but there's a whole meter below that
03:03:36 <supermop> look how high the doors are on that
03:04:37 <Eddi|zuHause> so if the monorail is 1.5m below the platform, that is only like 0.5m more than a train
03:04:39 <supermop> you've got more that 2500mm from bottom of vehicle before you even get to the floor
03:05:24 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: a train would probably reach to that yellow area on the sides
03:06:11 <supermop> i've compromised and done 800mm from railhead to platform in these stations so far
03:06:26 <supermop> becuase it looked more 'right'
03:06:49 <supermop> but many systems around the world are 1100-1300 mm
03:07:10 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. suburban trains often use higher platform height
03:07:18 <supermop> i could sink the regular rails down a bit more
03:07:42 <supermop> then the difference between rail and monorail would be less severe
03:07:46 <Eddi|zuHause> where older train systems might even use 30cm
03:08:18 <supermop> in the us it is sometmes 0 on amtrack in rural areas
03:08:23 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: i would maybe shrink the monorails a bit
03:08:37 <supermop> and then set little step stools outside the doors
03:09:01 <supermop> the station is just an asphalt tramway area with lines painted
03:09:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i know here in the region they had difficulties buying new trains and make them "barrier free", because besides the standardized 76cm they also have platforms of ca. 55cm and 35cm
03:09:42 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: i would but i cant control how others may or may not draw their monorails
03:09:49 <Eddi|zuHause> and it has to be barrier free on all of them
03:10:31 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: don't care about others. make it look decent with the default trains, and you should be fine
03:10:33 <supermop> yes its is a problem in the us as all new transit must be ADA compatible - means wheelchair accessable
03:11:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i think they settled on entrances at the 55cm height, with some metal plate that can stick out and raise/lower to 35 and 76
03:11:36 <supermop> chicago is scrapping loads of fairly good 80's L cars because they have a center pillar in the doors which cannot be removed structurally
03:11:47 <Eddi|zuHause> to close the gap
03:12:01 <Eddi|zuHause> but these things are notoriously unreliable and cause delays
03:12:35 <supermop> yes you see in suburban amtrak and commuter stations a metal bridge that station staff use in areas where they can not yet afford to build new platforms and buy new cars
03:12:51 <Eddi|zuHause> in Stuttgart they ordered similar trains, but they had to withdraw them again, because their incredibly tight schedule just didn't hold up
03:12:54 <supermop> and in rural areas they must use a portable lft
03:13:40 <supermop> well i am already cheating drawing my stations at 8m per tile
03:13:51 <Flygon_> Scrap? Why not sell them to some other metro system?
03:13:53 *** Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
03:14:06 <Flygon> Knowing Melbourne, we would probably somehow turn them into DMU HSTs :B
03:14:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: electric trains with 160km/h top speed?
03:15:03 <Flygon> Diesel trains with a nominal 160km/h top speed
03:15:04 <supermop> if most people draw trains at 12m per tile, then the monorail gets some cheating help
03:15:19 <Flygon> Everything here has 20% lobbed of it's actual top speed :U
03:15:25 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: my trains are based on 32m per tile scale
03:15:50 <supermop> as i can draw a trench 1600mm deep and it is 2400mm deep for more standard trains
03:16:04 <supermop> just enough to fit a monorail bogie?
03:16:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: well, over here, trains are tested with 10% above top speed
03:16:31 <Flygon> Eddi: It's... well, a really weird situation, across the entire country
03:16:39 <supermop> Flygon: the L cars are probably too specific to find a buyer for
03:16:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: schedukes are probably done with slightly lower speed
03:17:18 <supermop> third rail short cars with odd loading gauge due to tight corners
03:17:19 <Flygon> The VLocity DMUs have been (unofficially) tested around 220-230km/h (albiet, at that speed, they vibrated a bit TOO much, and other anectdotal evidence suggests it was a very unnerving ride. But this is all second hand reports, here, so, use a lot of salt)
03:17:30 <Flygon> supermop: Okay, I see the issue...
03:17:46 <Flygon> But they're only suppose to run 160km/h anyway, as the official speed limit...
03:17:46 <supermop> same reason NYC dumps its old cars into the ocean
03:18:07 <Flygon> Except they're totally allowed a 177km/h overspeed (10% overspeed, who'da thunk?)
03:18:14 <Flygon> But the big wallbanger is
03:18:40 <supermop> they would need such a specific buyer, and so much work, that it is not worth the MTA's time
03:18:43 <Flygon> Is that the near-identical current DMU TransWA Prospector sets are designed to go 200km/h in future
03:19:09 <Flygon> Which... collaborates perfectly with the 10% theoretical overspeed... which's exactly what the 220-230km/h VLocity tests stick to
03:19:28 <supermop> also many cars on the subway being scrapped now are 50 or so years old, so not many systems out there have similar stock anymore
03:19:34 <Flygon> So, all in all. The speed limits regarding the VLocity DMUs and derivatives is a cluster... bork
03:19:46 <Flygon> I don't feel like using the f-word here. You're all too civilized
03:20:17 <supermop> the DMUs in melbourne don't go that far away, why not electrify it all
03:20:20 <Flygon> supermop: I am mildly surprised there hasn't been any serious attempt to create a 100% standardized subway EMU for the North American subway...
03:20:29 <Flygon> But I do suppose the loading gauge problem is just too insane x.x
03:20:43 <Flygon> Yeah, I mean, Victoria's bloody tiny
03:20:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i never understood this anglosaxon obsession with bleeping "f-words"
03:21:13 <Flygon> Y'know what I reckon? Just electrictrify all of V/Line's current passenger lines (including Swan Hill)
03:21:17 <supermop> sure, similar to PCC with streetcars
03:21:29 <supermop> eddi is not from saxony
03:21:33 <Flygon> And cascade the DMUs down to other lines as they're electrified while keeping the pace with 200-250km/h EMUs...
03:21:53 <Flygon> This assumes we'd be willing to also spend the money on bringing the track up to RFR or HST standard too, while duplicating :U
03:22:02 <Flygon> It's actually kinda funny/silly...
03:22:29 <Flygon> My friend and I looked into how expensive it would be to turn the Melbourne-Adelaide line into a HST route (cheapest intercapital route in Australia)
03:22:46 <supermop> the least restrictive subways lines in the us are built to standard loading guage
03:22:47 <Flygon> It really wasn't too much. Even cheaper if we used pre-owned N700's from Japan. :U
03:22:55 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: technically, the modern day "saxon" people are not very closely related to the "saxon" people that invaded britain so many hundred years ago
03:23:34 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: the "ethnical" saxons moved westwards from the german region now called "lower saxony"
03:23:58 <Flygon> Lines like the Ballarat line.... could very much be operated with Shinkansen EMUs, simply because there isn't that many stations for the length of line
03:23:59 <Eddi|zuHause> whereas the name "saxony" moved eastwards with the noble people that ruled the country
03:24:00 <supermop> and all of the subway's 70s and 80s cars, both american and built in japan, as well as long island railroad and metro north EMUs from that era have essentially the same body
03:24:42 <Flygon> It's when you start hitting Bacchus Marsh or Melton that you'll want seperate EMUs for urban travel (to account for Rockbank, Deer Park, Ardeer, and the future Toolern station)
03:25:09 <supermop> well anglos are just seriously lapsed germanic tribes far enough back
03:25:26 <Eddi|zuHause> anglos were a danish tribe, where saxons were a german tribe
03:26:22 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, im more of the second kind of "saxon" than the first kind :p
03:26:30 <Flygon> I'm Australian. So, like
03:26:43 <Flygon> Who gives a fuck, I'm 905% criminal anyway :D
03:27:28 <Eddi|zuHause> but anyway, i have never seen this bleeping of swearwords outside of english speaking countries
03:27:31 <supermop> yes, but modern colloquial english anglo (as opposed to 'angle') means all of the british colonial white people, traditionally not counting celctic peoples
03:27:43 <Flygon> Eddi: Probably because other countries have such cool swear words
03:27:55 <Flygon> I mean, it's just so much fun to screan PERRRRRRRRRRRKELEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
03:27:59 <supermop> but today in the us it often means all english speaking white people
03:28:12 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: can't be. because we properly adopted "fuck" into our pool of swearwords
03:28:28 <Flygon> Eddi: Only because of crime nior films!
03:28:33 <supermop> even those who are scottish, irish, or scandinavian
03:28:48 <Eddi|zuHause> the german word "ficken" was never used outside of describing the sexual act
03:29:08 <Eddi|zuHause> it never became this universally applicable swearword
03:29:09 <supermop> as was traditionally old english 'fuck'
03:30:03 <Eddi|zuHause> whereas "fuck" is never used to mean sexually :p
03:30:50 <supermop> as someone who is ethnically swedish and scottish, i am still considered an 'anglo' in the US
03:31:39 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: because US-people are universally known for their cultural differentiations?
03:32:05 <supermop> who you are talking about and in what context
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03:33:43 <Eddi|zuHause> there's this german comedian who used to tell this bit: "i performed in New York, and after a show, this girl 'Tiffany' approached me, and asked: 'Hey, why do you have so many different languages in europe?' -- what do you answer to such a sophisticated question?"
03:33:50 <supermop> but in terms of discussing privilege and inequality, it makes sense to lump the once poor celtic and scandinavian immigrants in with the old rich english and dutch settlers, as they all are much more priveledged today than Asian, Black, or Hispanic peoples
03:34:02 <Eddi|zuHause> "i answered: because 70 years ago we lost the war!!"
03:34:10 <Eddi|zuHause> "she answered: that is so sad."
03:36:57 <supermop> likewise even though 4th generation Japanese families are likely wealthy and americanized, they may face similar difficulties as a poor refugee family from Laos in some areas, where in other areas they may enjoy privilege
03:37:30 <supermop> lots of people are racist until you explicity teach them not to be
03:37:56 <Flygon> So supermop is a blend of Swedish and Scottish
03:38:25 <Eddi|zuHause> ... and is a US-ian, and lives in australia?
03:38:37 <supermop> according to DNA yes but i speak almost no swedish, and i do not identify with scotts at all
03:38:45 <Flygon> glx: Thanks for that mental image
03:38:58 <Flygon> Now I think supermop's brother is a Magic Dog called Jake
03:39:49 <Eddi|zuHause> in german we have this expression: "Alter Schwede!" [old swede], when something unexpected/incredible happens
03:40:10 <supermop> i don't derive special pride from the us either, but i cannot deny that it shapes my identity
03:40:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure how or why that developed
03:41:07 <supermop> swedes may live long now
03:41:12 <Eddi|zuHause> most other things involving sweden originate in the 30 years war
03:41:22 <supermop> but 100 years ago many were hard living, hard drinking
03:41:33 <Eddi|zuHause> where the swedes are described as particularly brutal
03:41:59 <Eddi|zuHause> that's 400 years ago
03:43:15 <Eddi|zuHause> there's this torture technique called a "swedish drink", which involves a boot and animal excrement...
03:44:19 <Eddi|zuHause> [which is shoved down someone's throat]
03:45:31 <Eddi|zuHause> although, since the other parties in the 30 years war weren't exactly known for their humanitarian ambitions, this technique was probably not originating from the swedes at all
03:47:00 <supermop> i was just telling my fiance today about how my grampa, who grew up in swedish town in minnesota in 1910s-20s was surrounded by alchoholic laborers so was put off the the idea of ever drinking himself
03:47:41 <supermop> and never had a drink in his 96 years, not even when in combat in the Philippines
03:48:50 <Eddi|zuHause> basically, it was the 17th century version of "waterboarding"
03:49:49 <supermop> sweden was not that progessive in the 19th C as it was in the 20th, so i believe it
03:50:11 <supermop> in the 17th C im sure it was still a bit of the vking mentality
03:51:36 <supermop> after all, all the farmers who moved to the US wanted to leave for a reason
03:53:28 <supermop> off to the store more monorail and platform discussion later
03:54:01 <Eddi|zuHause> this was about monorail? :p
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05:14:29 <supermop> just ate cheese off a board shaped like ohio
05:18:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't really know the shape of ohio
05:19:36 <Eddi|zuHause> don't 80% of the american states have an almost rectangular shape, and then some ragged edge?
05:30:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i just realized this: when i made my joke earlier about "all about zbase", i should have mentiond that it works better if "z" is spoken as "zet" [BE] instead of "zee" [AE]
05:32:09 <Eddi|zuHause> (another thing about america i don't understand. why use "zee" when it's so easily confused with "cee"
05:39:17 <supermop> i dont think z is used that commonly in american english for it to be an issue
05:47:23 <Eddi|zuHause> well, often enough in american tv shows that i noticed it.
05:48:41 <Eddi|zuHause> also, it took me some time to actually understand what they said
05:50:39 <Eddi|zuHause> one of the interesting bits about this was when i started to watch stargate atlantis in english. because there the canadian guy said "zet" and the others "zee" [this distinction got totally lost in the translation]
05:53:22 <supermop> yeah americans find it funny that more 'english' people say zed
05:53:40 <supermop> i can imagine how this would not translate
05:53:52 <Flygon> Is it sad that I find it hard to hear the difference between t and d when it's not at the start of the word?
05:53:56 <Flygon> The sounds mush together easily
05:54:19 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: that is not weird at all
05:54:37 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: like for japanese people the sounds of "r" and "l" kinda merge
05:54:47 <Flygon> The sounds don't merge per-say
05:55:04 <Flygon> It's just that the way of writing it in Romanji is extremely bloody stupid
05:55:11 <Flygon> It's not an r sound, it's not an l sound
05:55:11 <Eddi|zuHause> because the japanese phonology only has a sound that is halfway inbetween both
05:55:28 <Flygon> The Japanese r sound sounds like when you say Karl
05:56:00 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. try teaching germans how to pronounce a th :p
05:56:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i have writing from my early english lessons, where i wrote "dis" instead of "this"
05:57:10 <Eddi|zuHause> because that's how everybody spoke it
05:57:34 <Eddi|zuHause> [this was in 5th grade]
06:01:15 <supermop> bring back the thorn character
06:02:12 <supermop> stupid to approximate the sound with either d or th because early printers were too cheap to get a custom non-latin character made for their presses
06:04:57 <supermop> maybe best way to get around the 4x z tile edge issue is to make nothing flat
06:05:09 <supermop> like no surfaces at zero height
06:05:11 <Eddi|zuHause> strange how the germans managed to keep so many more "odd" characters around in that time. like two differently shaped "s", dots around "äöü", ligatures for "st", "ck" and "sz" [or "ss"]. and all that in two different typesets [fractured and antiqua]
06:05:37 <supermop> i think english printers were just really cheap
06:05:54 <supermop> and couldn't be bothered to buy the fancy characters
06:06:06 <supermop> thats where we got w
06:06:54 <supermop> just stick two vs or two us to make a wynn
06:07:36 <supermop> the worst are the guys who just used a Y for thorn instead of th
06:07:42 <Eddi|zuHause> how do english people manage to call that "doubleyoo"? isn't that really cumbersome to speak outloud?
06:08:13 <supermop> eddi yes, easier for us that double v though
06:08:27 <supermop> wynn would of course be much easier to say
06:08:59 <Eddi|zuHause> it's much easier in german...
06:09:30 <supermop> now we have people thinking Ye was an old word for the, instead of second person pronoun because cheap printers used Y instead of thorn
06:09:37 <Eddi|zuHause> the only letter in german that has a weird name is "y". but that only ever appears in foreign words
06:10:02 <Eddi|zuHause> either greek or english
06:10:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Q is spoken like "Kuh" [cow]
06:11:26 <supermop> if i make all of the flat surfaces at say 50-100 mm instead of zero,
06:11:46 <supermop> then the pixel edge can eat into the side a bit
06:11:57 <supermop> and the top edge can stay smooth
06:12:01 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: then you have trouble fitting with landscape from other places?
06:12:32 <supermop> but what if its drawn as being 50mm tall, protruding up?
06:12:55 <supermop> so a tile of flat concrete looks like a 50mm thick concrete slab
06:13:08 <Eddi|zuHause> that sentence makes exactly 0 sense
06:13:28 <supermop> have a slab of some thickness above the groundsprite
06:13:53 <Eddi|zuHause> what's that supposed to solve?
06:14:19 <Eddi|zuHause> industries or houses that are not from your set will look sunken into the ground
06:14:58 <supermop> where a bunch of these slabs fit together they hide their serrated edge down in the crack
06:15:25 <Eddi|zuHause> 1.2px is enough to annoy people
06:15:29 <supermop> dirt and grass could still be at 0 height
06:16:03 <Eddi|zuHause> how does that solve a monorail ditch dug into grass?
06:16:24 <supermop> man the monorail ditch is a whole other problem
06:16:39 <supermop> but shallow ditches like gutters may work
06:16:40 <Eddi|zuHause> so. what is this problem then?
06:17:45 <Eddi|zuHause> no, what i think you need to be looking at is that when you dig out stuff from a base tile, you need to add the bits that would be on the next tile to this tile
06:17:58 <Eddi|zuHause> as long as the tile repeats itself, it will look seamless
06:18:10 <supermop> to give the concrete beneath the rails some detail, i have to give it a thickness of 50mm to cut into
06:18:27 <supermop> but now i need to use a mask to hide that thickness at tile edge
06:18:56 <supermop> or have a small scale version of the monorail problem for each channel cut
06:19:35 <Eddi|zuHause> when rendering, assume the tile is repeated endlessly, and make sharp edges by advanced cuttery
06:19:42 <supermop> i guess if there is a recessed channel, i could extend it beyond the tile edge then crop it off
06:20:31 <Eddi|zuHause> then hope it doesn't look too bad in curves and stuff
06:20:35 <supermop> also i can assume the monorail wont turn in stations (yet) so the repeat only has to account for straight stretches
06:21:35 <supermop> hopefully by the time we get curved stations we can have curved stations on curved bridges, so we can finally stop digging 2m deep trenches for out monorails
06:22:29 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see how that would help :p
06:23:45 <supermop> hopefully on a bridge we dont need to did the stupid trench!
06:30:27 <Eddi|zuHause> a) yes. a bridge is basically a ground tile raised by 8px, and b) you can't force people to build their stuff on bridges
06:37:11 <supermop> monorail should be cheaper to build on a bridge than on/in the ground
06:37:37 <supermop> that was one of the selling points of the original systems - easier to elevate than rail
06:37:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think you can adjust bridge costs based on railtype
06:38:53 <supermop> nor do i think you can do like in TTO and give monorail its own bridge type, that regular rail cannot access (which presumably could be quite cheap)
06:39:47 <supermop> real monorails occasionally use 'regular' bridges too when they must span long distances
06:41:15 <Eddi|zuHause> what may actually help you is a "height offset" parameter, so vehicles are drawn at a different elevation
06:41:47 <Eddi|zuHause> [but then you still have that platform heigt problem)
06:41:57 <supermop> there is a spot on the narita express coming in to tokyo through Chiba from the airport, where the rails run beneath the chiba suspended monorail for a stretch
06:42:10 <supermop> eddi yeah i pondered that
06:42:36 <supermop> do the tall platforms look worse that the trenches....?
06:43:00 <Eddi|zuHause> no, but you can't adjust platform height based on railtype
06:43:21 <supermop> sadly there is no spot where the suspended monorail hangs from the bottom of a rail bridge
06:43:43 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: the default station changes sprites based on rail type
06:43:46 <Eddi|zuHause> or maybe you can, but other people won't do that
06:44:58 <supermop> well that's what i was wondering... if i suddenly decided to make rail completely different in size, i'd run into problems with every other set out there
06:45:20 <supermop> but there are so few monorail graphics out there... could i get away with it
06:45:55 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i once thought about elevation levels being a solution to subways etc. in lieu of actual flexible tunnels/bridges.
06:46:20 <Eddi|zuHause> but it still has a few flaws, like connector pieces between subway, tramway and elevated rails
06:47:32 <supermop> and in some cities elevateds are built with small gauges and light vehicles like a tramway, in some cities they are heavy rail just like regular trains
06:48:24 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you can easily make that distinciton by providing the vehicles as tram or as trains.
06:49:10 <supermop> then do you also have subterranean tram and rail? i guess that could work
06:49:44 <supermop> in Boston the Green line is a subway in the city but is basically trams, whereas the red line is heavy rail
06:51:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i think most subways in germany operate under the [less strict] tramway law
06:52:00 <Eddi|zuHause> but not all trains that go underground are subways
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06:57:59 <supermop> yes it varies line by line
06:58:29 <supermop> here's what i have so far for concrete slabs:
07:02:39 <Eddi|zuHause> in germany, we also now have trains that operate either under railway law or under tramway law depending on which section of track they happen to be on right now
07:05:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i would probably skip the shadows...
07:07:06 <supermop> as it will be easiest to render base, platform, and shelter as separate sprites
07:07:34 <supermop> adding shadows to the sprite with alpha probably will not look good
07:11:12 <supermop> how long are your 32m/tile trains? one tile?
07:12:54 <supermop> hmm i wonder if it would be too insane to model the clips holding the rail
07:29:25 <supermop> maybe just a little rectangle
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09:26:57 <supermop> big day in the ant community on my terrace
09:27:30 <supermop> drones and new queens from two hills getting ready for flight
09:56:56 <supermop> these guys seem to require a pretty big ground crew
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10:13:49 <chillcore> fine fine thanks for asking
10:15:26 <chillcore> adjusting my tgen light patch a bit
10:15:53 <chillcore> making the optional parts not optional
10:16:30 <supermop> im playing my first ever TAI game
10:16:52 <chillcore> if only I knew what that meant
10:20:32 <supermop> pikka's town and industry set
10:20:50 <chillcore> ah yes that one ... rice fields
10:21:54 <chillcore> looked pretty sweat ... but I was stuck on George's stuffs and later FIRS
10:22:17 <chillcore> also coding more as playing so never got to really test it
10:27:10 <chillcore> maybe I will just do the gui version on top of the light version ...
10:27:18 <chillcore> not keep them seperate
10:27:31 <chillcore> 1.6 is a year away ... got time
10:33:37 <chillcore> butt ugly terrain in trunk and it will come down on me
10:33:51 <chillcore> I did the tuning not he
10:34:04 <chillcore> and he knew very well that it was like that
10:34:22 <chillcore> I'll just point to my patchpack ... there is my tuning
10:34:36 <chillcore> he just was to lazy to implement
10:35:25 <chillcore> for allowing this to happen
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10:35:57 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
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10:52:14 <Alberth> /me plays code-refactoring
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10:55:02 <chillcore> hehe that is a nice game too
10:55:58 <chillcore> what are you working on?
10:56:49 <chillcore> I am going to play that game too in a bit but no much good will come from it right now so ...
10:57:51 <chillcore> hack and slash in the gui version
10:58:45 <Alberth> handling mouse interaction for a construction window (build path, coaster, or terraform) in freerct is way too complicated to code currently
10:59:33 <Alberth> you have the window, the viewport, and a common coordination object, sending messages between them
11:00:05 <Alberth> it's a nightmare to build or even understand a year later
11:00:37 <Alberth> so I am trying to simplify it, by taking a lot of crap out :)
11:01:45 <chillcore> ghosts 'n goblins style ... :P
11:02:24 <Alberth> pretty much everything is being moved to the construction window, where the window manager handles communication and handling of mouse things
11:02:50 <chillcore> hmm I should update the checkout I have here to see where you are at
11:02:55 <Alberth> it mostly eliminates the coordination thingie
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11:03:14 <chillcore> have you changed the clone location over the past years?
11:03:34 <Alberth> googlecode is dead, so yeah :p
11:03:54 <chillcore> google is blacklisted here
11:03:57 <Alberth> working on that one :p
11:04:16 <chillcore> no hg should work I guess
11:04:51 <chillcore> that works. thank you
11:04:58 <Alberth> pull mostly works, push fails in all sorts of interesting ways :p
11:05:46 <Alberth> so I switched to git for freerct
11:06:25 <chillcore> git gives some benifits over HG yes
11:06:41 <chillcore> less faffing around with history
11:07:00 <chillcore> if it is better is in the eye of the beholder
11:08:02 <Alberth> the basic idea is quite nice, and it gives strong guides on how to do things, which is probably useful for the general audience
11:08:04 <chillcore> let's see if I can find a nice git gui that does not crash on me
11:08:35 <Alberth> I haven't found one that classifies as "nice" :p
11:09:05 <Alberth> but the entire rebase stuff still feels very complicated
11:09:19 <chillcore> the ones I tried on linux occasionally crashed on me
11:09:34 <chillcore> rebase ... I never needed that
11:10:05 <chillcore> you keep a main branch and braches for your WIPs
11:10:42 <Alberth> and you merge branches?
11:10:44 <chillcore> then you make another branch (copy of main) for testing and merge there
11:11:02 <Alberth> ah, very non-git-ish :)
11:11:22 <chillcore> but you can keep working on each feature untill happy
11:11:38 <Alberth> oh, git does do branching like you do
11:12:08 <chillcore> unmerging is a bitch
11:12:11 <Alberth> but they only merge if there are no conflicts
11:12:15 <chillcore> would not recommended it
11:12:35 <chillcore> you can fix merges in your copy of main
11:12:49 <chillcore> ye it is not like HG where you just pop a patch
11:13:07 <chillcore> eg. main is at r1000
11:13:30 <chillcore> you try r1001 and are not happy so you go back to 1000 and forget about r 1001
11:13:38 <chillcore> bit of a workaround
11:14:03 <chillcore> r1001 being a merge with one of the braches
11:14:32 <Alberth> git-style would do a rebase of the branch to r1000
11:14:45 <Alberth> so you fix the merge problems in the branch
11:15:04 <chillcore> branch is just keep going
11:15:12 <Alberth> then you can ff-merge the branch into the main
11:15:17 <chillcore> you merge in main or copy thereof
11:15:39 <chillcore> hmm hw do I explain this properly ...
11:16:09 <chillcore> the trees stay trees
11:16:28 <chillcore> but there is this one tree in the middle where branches touch
11:16:49 <chillcore> the small trees keep growing
11:17:33 <chillcore> higher up another branch touches the 'magic' tree
11:17:53 <chillcore> but is your not happy wit that you cut the top off
11:18:27 <Alberth> so how do you fix that situation?
11:18:49 <chillcore> if there is a merge at r 1001 you just chekout r1000
11:18:58 <chillcore> the merge goes away
11:19:24 <chillcore> but you still have the small trees so nothing lost
11:19:35 <chillcore> only that one merge
11:19:59 <chillcore> as in r1001 goes into the trash
11:20:51 <chillcore> or work some more on one of the smaller branches first before you do
11:21:23 <chillcore> but this is me pulling trunk ... the magic tree I have no access to
11:22:31 <chillcore> you'd need a seperate remote location and work on clone I guess
11:22:54 <chillcore> when your are happy with your clone
11:23:14 <chillcore> you take the tree that was merged entirely and push it to the remote
11:23:30 <chillcore> see you still have it
11:23:55 <chillcore> it is only the main clone that has the merging
11:24:09 <chillcore> to see if things work out
11:24:34 <chillcore> but again this is suitable for patchers like me
11:25:22 <chillcore> which I do not care much about the since I can not change it
11:25:39 <chillcore> I do care ... because it influences my future merges
11:26:40 <chillcore> you'd have to change role a bit ...
11:27:11 <chillcore> Alberth the main dev and Alberth the patcher
11:27:46 <Alberth> I am having too many conversations currently :)
11:28:05 <chillcore> ok no prob ... maybe I can show you later
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11:55:02 <Alberth> chillcore: ah, right, yes that's a tricky part
11:55:29 <Alberth> I find it really hard to decide whether a given patch is useful :(
11:57:31 <chillcore> I did a few patchpacks like that ... and deciding if I should keep something in now or merge it later is a bitch
11:57:47 <chillcore> you do not want to go back 200 revisions and redo the mergin part
12:00:37 <chillcore> Also I had no remote to take care of ...
12:01:17 <Alberth> with trunk it's easier in a sense, you either never merge, or do merge it for eternity :)
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12:02:57 <chillcore> Alberth: it does not build for me can't find lex/flex in repo
12:03:15 <chillcore> I'll have a bit f a search in a bit
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12:04:26 <Alberth> hmm, it doesn't fall back on pre-generated files?
12:05:59 <chillcore> make finds not targets ... cmake needs options it seems
12:06:11 <frosch123> chillcore: maybe look for "bison"
12:06:24 <frosch123> sometimes flex is part of the bison packet
12:07:01 <chillcore> already newest ... hmm
12:07:22 <chillcore> must be something silly I am missing here
12:07:48 <Alberth> lex/flex is a program
12:08:39 <chillcore> maybe time to upgrade to debian itself ...
12:08:49 <Alberth> flex-2.5.37-7.fc21.x86_64 <-- the name of the flex package at my fedora
12:08:58 <chillcore> instead of mint debian that is
12:09:38 <chillcore> I'll search for it in synaptic ...
12:09:50 <frosch123> it's named "flex" there :p
12:10:08 <frosch123> "apt-get install flex" should just work
12:10:13 <Alberth> and you need 'bison' too
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12:10:40 <chillcore> frosch: it sais not found
12:11:03 <chillcore> Alberth: got that installed
12:11:31 <frosch123> what? it has bison but not flex?
12:11:44 <Alberth> maybe it's called 'lex' ?
12:12:15 <chillcore> if I have to I'll get it manually
12:12:24 <Alberth> which flex doesn't give you a path?
12:12:53 <chillcore> E: Kan pakket lex niet vinden
12:13:29 <Alberth> gnu.org should have sources :p
12:13:56 <chillcore> exactly what I was thinking XD
12:14:21 <chillcore> stuff like this does not happen often but yeah
12:14:44 <Alberth> you may want to talk to LordAro about cmake not properly handling lack of the scanner generator
12:15:17 <Alberth> don't know if you can give options to cmake
12:15:25 <chillcore> eg. IRC client auto-connected to mint channel each time, untill I said straight up "look guys I do not want to be here help me undo this"
12:16:20 <chillcore> well intended no doubt but yeah
12:16:33 <Alberth> can be quite useful for new users
12:17:37 <Alberth> you can say in the forum "fire up the blah program, and we can give you a hand"
12:19:29 <chillcore> huhu ... mind you I was polite and they helped me real quick
12:20:32 <Alberth> nice bunch of chaps :)
12:21:13 <chillcore> True Clem and co are a nice bunch ... and I am very happy with Mint
12:21:48 <chillcore> just some minor details ... but can't have it all unless you do it yourself I guess
12:22:49 <chillcore> anyhoo I'll have a look in a bit ... the docs are quite clear and I maneged to run it before so ...
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12:24:26 <chillcore> strangely enough in synaptic flex is marked as installed ... woohoo mysteries to solve
12:37:17 <supermop> nowdays in rail yards and along track, you often see precast modular concrete conduits for carrying wires etc
12:37:28 <supermop> where the top lifts of for access
12:37:57 <supermop> was there anything similar in earlier times?
12:38:27 <supermop> something older looking running along in the gravel?
12:41:28 <Alberth> I remember metal wires along the track that moved for changing track direction, they were above ground, 20/30 cm or so
12:48:26 <supermop> i want something to take up some visual room along tracks in the stations - for modern tracks it is easy but for older ones I have no idea
12:48:59 <supermop> i tried a terracotta drainage gutter, but i have no idea if those were ever used
12:50:40 <Alberth> you'd hope the rock-bed would have adequate drainage :)
12:51:06 <Alberth> but reality doesn't matter much, just use what you think looks good
12:51:34 <Alberth> just a foot-path perhaps?
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13:03:43 <Alberth> water-supply (toilets)?
13:06:57 <chillcore> also for older ones ... toilet paper and content :P
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13:57:50 <Wolf01> downloaded 185MB patch from blizzard in 8 seconds... what kind of sorcery they use?
13:58:36 <Wolf01> (my real dl speed is 450-500KB/s)
13:58:39 <Alberth> they sneakily uploaded it already last night? :)
13:59:28 <Wolf01> also with diablo 3, the dl speed was like 1.25MB/s
14:00:52 <Alberth> they multiply patch size by a 100 or so, for impressive upload speeds?
14:02:46 <Alberth> or like fedora, patches are big, but they only send changes wrt an already available version?
14:03:00 <Wolf01> or it's like pifs... the data is already there, just figure out in which point it is :P
14:04:19 <Wolf01> so it's 185MB only if you don't have anything but 1.3MB if it can rebuild it incrementally, it could be
14:15:27 <frosch123> or it is just a installer, that downloads the actual stuff later
14:16:39 <frosch123> when i updated flush the other day, it said 30mib or something, but what i got was only a 1mib executable that would do the download itself
14:17:36 <Wolf01> it's already the installer, it was downloading the stuff :P
14:18:09 <frosch123> no problem, you can chain that indefinitely
14:28:22 <Rubidium> or is it a 180 MiB updater that you already downloaded, which downloads a 5 MiB patch?
14:31:17 <supermop> but first, here is some ugly gravel:
14:32:36 <Wolf01> I don't know, maybe the battle.net client already have all the future patches and just update the bits before installing them
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14:33:11 <Wolf01> it looks nice but too bright
14:36:34 <Wolf01> uhm, another cute russian girl just sent me an email, too bad the sender address is french
14:37:23 <supermop> whoa there is a lunar eclipse out the window
14:42:05 <Alberth> ha, I thought at eclipse.org/download :p
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15:02:25 <supermop> not a bad one, nice and red
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15:41:32 <Pikka> I made the mistake of playing a little game with busybee
15:41:43 <Pikka> I have identified a gap in pineapple trains, in the early years
15:43:06 <andythenorth> important questions: leave Depeche Mode playing, or choose something else?
15:43:25 <andythenorth> is Depeche Mode sufficiently Christmasy?
15:43:44 <andythenorth> some kind of interurban cabbage?
15:43:45 <Pikka> to the first question, I don't know about the second.
15:44:12 <Pikka> yes. something more passengery for electrified lines.
15:48:18 <andythenorth> that will learn me
15:48:52 <andythenorth> this Road Hog set is unfinished
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15:50:30 <andythenorth> mixing it with Pineapples?
16:04:36 <Alberth> moving the cow could be easier :p
16:07:22 <andythenorth> I have found a better way to play with FIRS
16:07:28 <andythenorth> enable industry production cheat
16:07:34 <andythenorth> better than delivering supplies to farms
16:10:20 <Pikka> according to some guy on the forums FIRS is improved by mixing it with other industry sets...
16:15:49 <andythenorth> something called TaI?
16:16:26 <andythenorth> should have called it Bossy Bee
16:16:33 <andythenorth> keeps telling me what to deliver
16:23:10 <Alberth> totally depends on your interpretation of its suggestions :)
16:23:28 <Alberth> but it's nice that people automatically think they have to do it :p
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16:30:00 <andythenorth> it’s quite compelling
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17:19:53 <andythenorth> when you’re on the wrong branch
17:20:00 <andythenorth> you have no choice but to bin your changes?
17:20:04 <andythenorth> or commit to the wrong branch?
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17:24:13 <Eddi|zuHause> hg diff > tmp.diff
17:25:37 <andythenorth> it can do that now? :o
17:25:51 <Eddi|zuHause> probably not. just make a copy
17:26:13 <andythenorth> copy everything because the vcs is incompetent
17:26:19 * andythenorth should really stop using this
17:26:40 <andythenorth> or I should install all the extra magic extensions that make it usable but don’t ship by default
17:26:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know why you're so upset...
17:27:03 <andythenorth> because it makes me feel stupid
17:33:33 <frosch123> andythenorth: hg diff --git
17:33:43 <frosch123> but actually hg rebase
17:34:11 <frosch123> if your working copy has your current files, do hg rebase <target branch>
17:35:32 <andythenorth> so commit, then rebase to different branch?
17:36:14 <frosch123> if rebase is too much magic for you, you can also use queues
17:36:23 <andythenorth> I don’t mind rebase
17:36:27 <frosch123> hg qimport -rblabla:.
17:36:30 <andythenorth> I don’t have rebase, I’d have to get it
17:36:33 <frosch123> hg update <target branch>
17:36:59 <frosch123> just need to enable it in ~/.hgrc
17:37:19 <andythenorth> and fix my mercurial
17:37:24 <andythenorth> mine is quite broken
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17:51:15 <Pikka> I finished my little interurban, and I've decided to halve the wagon purchase prices
17:51:39 <Pikka> deciding whether to call it a release or wait a while. I might wait a while, get some more stuff together for a big bolg post or something.
18:21:38 <andythenorth> ‘create group from these shared orders'
18:21:51 <andythenorth> would be more affordant than ‘find vehicle in long list, create new group, add shared'
18:25:55 <frosch123> andythenorth: ctrl+drag to empty row
18:26:14 <andythenorth> yet another magic ctr
18:35:49 <Samu> if (owner != OWNER_WATER && owner != OWNER_NONE && _current_company != OWNER_TOWN ) {
18:41:06 <Samu> what's the diference between _local_company and _current_company
18:41:53 <glx> because the game manages all companies one at a time
18:46:34 <Samu> prospected industries are prospected by owner-town even though I am prospecting it
18:48:23 <Samu> i am trying to bypass CommandCost ret = CheckTileOwnership(tile);
18:48:54 <Samu> checktileownership is the culprit, doesn't let it prospect on my own canals
18:49:18 <glx> that's how prospection works
18:49:28 <glx> it happens only on free land
18:49:59 <Samu> Owner owner = GetTileOwner(tile); - this gives the owner of the canal
18:50:23 <Samu> if (owner == _current_company) return CommandCost();
18:50:38 <Samu> owner is company 1, current company is owner town
18:50:57 <glx> prospection doesn't start when you press the button
18:56:13 <Samu> there has to be a way to get the company who issued the prospect command
19:45:26 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27219 trunk/src/lang/simplified_chinese.txt (2015-04-04 19:45:16 +0200 )
19:45:27 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
19:45:28 <DorpsGek> simplified_chinese - 13 changes by xiangyigao
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19:57:26 <andythenorth> understandable, or obscure?
20:00:58 <Alberth> "Skip" being some class of truck?
20:07:21 <Alberth> I'd call that a container truck :)
20:08:34 <andythenorth> I could call it a recycling truck
20:08:48 * andythenorth wonders if FIRS recycling chain should be introduced earlier
20:08:50 <andythenorth> recycling is not new
20:09:14 <andythenorth> 1997 is quite late
20:15:20 <Alberth> wouldn't people get confused with the recycling plant?
20:19:28 <andythenorth> because it randomises?
20:26:10 <Alberth> because it sounds like the truck is aimed at recycling products (it does to me)
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20:50:42 <frosch123> andythenorth: we are trying hard to sell eints to tb :)
20:52:32 <andythenorth> will we get a good price?
20:53:30 <frosch123> i am trying to make him bite on the cheap stuff, and then make buckets on the service addons
21:01:30 <Supercheese> andy: not sure about when to introduce recycling? Make it a parameter :)
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22:00:11 <andythenorth> parameters are nonsense
22:00:19 <andythenorth> how is a player supposed to know the right answer?
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22:00:42 <Alberth> economy parameters bad?
22:02:42 <Supercheese> Parameters are nice
22:02:46 <Supercheese> let the player decide
22:03:16 <andythenorth> how would they know the right answer?
22:04:01 <frosch123> by trying all of them?
22:04:20 <frosch123> make the default parameter "invalid"
22:04:23 <Alberth> reading documentation :p
22:04:31 <frosch123> which just pops up an error message on game start :p
22:05:01 * andythenorth mostly hates parameters
22:05:01 <Supercheese> default it to 1997
22:05:04 <andythenorth> dunno if I mentioned that
22:05:06 <Supercheese> but make it changeable
22:05:12 * Supercheese mostle likes parameters
22:05:25 <Supercheese> well, you asked the question
22:05:44 <andythenorth> there are 51 industries in Full FIRS
22:05:50 <andythenorth> they all get a parameter? o_O
22:06:12 <Supercheese> no, you were just wondering about the recycle
22:06:21 <Supercheese> "andythenorth wonders if FIRS recycling chain should be introduced earlier"
22:07:11 <Alberth> how did you go from parameters in general to 51 of them? :o
22:07:24 <andythenorth> by logical progression
22:07:39 <Supercheese> the recycling chain is special though because it comes so late
22:08:06 <andythenorth> how to explain to players?
22:08:16 <andythenorth> why not a parameter for Steel, or Aluminium?
22:08:24 <Alberth> what is this 51 parameters for?
22:08:33 <andythenorth> industry introduction dates
22:08:37 <Supercheese> steel and aluminum are both just Metal though
22:09:05 <Alberth> what's wrong with the existing dates?
22:09:17 <Supercheese> nothing is wrong especially they are fine
22:09:23 <Supercheese> but the topic was brought up
22:10:46 <andythenorth> I don’t play past about 2000
22:10:51 <andythenorth> so the chain is dead to me :D
22:11:26 <Supercheese> I got stuck in my current game when the first Av8 seaplane came out, because I thought, "Hmm, OGFX+ Airports doesn'tyet have a seaplane port, I should make one"
22:12:47 <Alberth> andy doesn't know people ask weird requests? :o
22:13:52 <Alberth> if you want to do anything, the simplest is to make an offset parameter, shifting everything by X years
22:14:11 <Alberth> but that's quite debatable, imho
22:14:37 <andythenorth> just more configuration crap to forget to do
22:15:54 <Supercheese> unless there wasn't a problem in the first place ;)
22:16:43 <Alberth> solving by not doing anything is one of the easier things to do :)
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23:31:10 <Supercheese> Hmm, which graphics to use for the seaplane port
23:38:02 <Supercheese> maybe the OGFX dock graphics
23:39:50 <Eddi|zuHause> there exist some already?
23:41:00 <Supercheese> I am patching OGFX+ airports, so I would like 4 rotations
23:41:18 <Supercheese> I figure I need some little dockways for the people to board the seaplanes
23:41:30 <Supercheese> but the rest can pretty much be water
23:41:37 <Supercheese> with the hangar of course
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23:41:57 <Supercheese> the existing seaplane port grf does not have all rotations
23:42:37 <Supercheese> except for the weird 04 hanging out there
23:43:19 <Eddi|zuHause> that was meant to be the runway length?
23:44:16 <Eddi|zuHause> the hangar looks like it was built by escher...
23:44:38 <Supercheese> yes, I am just going to stick the hangar right on the water
23:44:48 <Supercheese> the ramp there is... odd
23:45:02 <Supercheese> the dockways were what was most interesting
23:49:40 *** DorpsGek sets mode: +v frosch
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continue to next day ⏵
