IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-01-05
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00:34:15 <mek42> is there still a two way block signal on the depot door?
00:34:52 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. unless you place a path signal nearby
01:42:57 <mek42> sry for delayed gratitude - doing some home organization while waiting for money for small-medium track system
01:46:39 <Elyon> is there any way to specify negative pixel offsets in sprite layouts?
01:47:41 <mek42> Elyon: thank you for doing the kind of work that would prompt your question - sadly, at this point I'm just a player and have no idea
01:48:42 <Elyon> mek42: :D hopefully you will enjoy the further fruits of labour
01:50:04 <Elyon> anyway, I need a single sprite repeated / <- that way, using groundsprites, which means either I start from the top and need negative x offsets, or start from the left and need negative y offsets
02:01:41 <mek42> hmmm.... I had been getting bored, but it seems as though I've over-extended and am going to bankrupt myself - I have learned two major things this play though, I like UKRS, and I think 1825 is a good start date - early enough to have a chance to develop a shipping income before rail, late enough to make over extending once rail develops a real temptation
02:12:53 <mek42> if I have the cash to cover the purchase, what does "failure to auto-renew, money limit" mean? is there a max auto-renew / year limit?
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02:21:40 <mek42> is there an easy way to reverse all of the one-way block signals on a stretch of track when you realize you made a small mistake?
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02:54:13 <Supercheese> ctrl+remove them, then ctrl+readd them in the proper direction
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05:54:07 <Eddi|zuHause> Elyon: i'd assume 2-complement
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05:56:48 <Elyon> Eddi|zuHause: that'd make sense. I'll toy around with it
06:03:01 <Elyon> ah wonderful, `xoffset & 0xFF` works as expected in python
06:05:58 <Elyon> and you were right, it was 2's complement
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07:29:30 <Elyon> does grfcodec load the image again for each sprite even if the sprites use the same image?
07:33:38 <Elyon> it seems it reloads the image for alternate (usually 32bpp) views
07:34:25 <Elyon> so instead of loading a 40 million pixel image once, it loads it 3072 times ... hrm.
08:46:00 <Elyon> so, about grfcodec ... is there any way to have it retain more images in memory? I just need two images there, really ...
08:46:22 <Elyon> compiling is slooow with reloading the same image over and over
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09:37:12 <Elyon> hmm, is it normal behaviour for childsprites to be occasionally occluded by the tiles behind them, even when their groundsprite has 16x16x50 bounding box?
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09:42:56 <Eddi|zuHause> if you make bounding boxes too large, or they overlap in weird ways, the algorithm can't figure out anymore how it is supposed to look
09:43:30 <peter1138> There is an ongoing bug in recent versions related to that.
09:44:53 <Eddi|zuHause> the problematic part in that is that if you fix the algorithm for your case, you probably break it for other cases
09:46:19 <peter1138> I meant to the flickering, not to impossible sorting.
09:47:18 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, yeah. that exists, too
09:51:35 <Elyon> well, the bounding box overlaps in very standard ways in that it's a 0,0,0 16,16,50 bb
09:53:22 <Elyon> should I try reducing zextent?
09:53:52 <Eddi|zuHause> try in 1.4 first
09:53:58 <Elyon> or just wait for even more recent version to fix the flickering bug?
09:54:03 <Eddi|zuHause> to make sure it's not the above bug
09:55:29 <Elyon> I'll look into it :) thanks
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12:41:35 <frosch123> Elyon: it is not a matter of bounding boxes
12:41:52 <frosch123> parent sprites must include enough transparency to cover the childsprites
12:42:02 <frosch123> since only the parent sprite is evaluated for clipping
12:42:10 <frosch123> maybe we should change that inside ottd
12:42:15 <frosch123> since so many people get it wrong
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17:45:22 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27113 trunk/src/lang/spanish.txt (2015-01-05 17:45:15 UTC)
17:45:23 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:24 <DorpsGek> spanish - 1 changes by juanjo
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18:32:44 <planetmaker> happy new year everyone and so on :)
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19:14:41 <V453000> andythenorth: CHIPS will soon get competition P
19:15:20 <V453000> and we will make it better! :D
19:15:51 <frosch123> V453000: andy has been looking for cats for quite some time
19:17:40 <andythenorth> aren’t they in PURR?
19:17:47 <andythenorth> that was my guess anyway
19:17:57 <andythenorth> but I’d rather someone else looked for me
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19:19:32 <V453000> and cats will be in CATS
19:19:41 <andythenorth> station sets suck
19:19:49 <andythenorth> the nfo is no fun
19:19:57 <andythenorth> and the cargo display is really stupid
19:20:10 <V453000> Elyon seems to be doing some magic with python processing
19:20:47 <andythenorth> if he can write a parser-lexer to write out station nml he might as well fix nml for stations
19:21:04 * andythenorth should go and do other things
19:21:07 <V453000> he does some magic where cargo sprites show up on the platforms dynamically based on number of cargo on the platforms - supporting multiple cargoes on one platform
19:22:08 <Wolf01> andythenorth, purchased the volvo from lego :)
19:31:29 <Rubidium> talking about lego... did the lego leave Braunschweig?
19:35:16 <andythenorth> Wolf01: dig a hole with it, place it in the hole…
19:35:20 <andythenorth> self-storing Lego
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19:43:34 <Wolf01> I don't know if it could dig holes, usually they just load stuff from piles
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19:53:23 <Elyon> for the record, it's she
19:56:53 <oskari89> Is there updated spec of heightmaps now available, since 255 height levels?
19:57:19 <Elyon> isn't it just a linear conversion?
19:58:08 <andythenorth> Elyon: hi :) sorry for assumed ‘he’
19:58:20 <Elyon> not a worry in the world, and hi :)
19:58:28 <andythenorth> sweeping gender imbalance = wrong assumptions :P
19:58:53 <andythenorth> anyway, nml doesn’t have stations. Nobody figured it out
19:59:00 <Elyon> mm. So anyway, I could have a look at porting stations to nml, BUUUT
19:59:01 <andythenorth> it’s probably the only big gap in nml
19:59:13 <Elyon> I have been using python for all of 4 days
19:59:48 <Alberth> oskari89: heights in the image are scaled to the max height you set in the map
19:59:57 <Elyon> it has kind of been my "blind spot", so I figured I'd generate CATS nfo stuff using python to learn both
20:00:14 <frosch123> oskari89: sea level is pure black, the rest is scaled lineary
20:01:29 <andythenorth> Elyon: are you generating nfo directly, or using a templating module?
20:01:46 <oskari89> How about water on different height levels, higher than sea level = river (as auto generated on heightmaps)
20:01:56 <Elyon> well technically I wrote a templating module
20:03:02 <frosch123> i wondered about not directly exposing the station spritelayout stuff to nml
20:03:15 <frosch123> but instead emulate the industry/house/object style spritegroups
20:03:20 <oskari89> Manyally placing rivers is such pain when there is 5-digit amount of lakes on scenario
20:03:22 <Alberth> you're welcome to implement the enhanced scenario idea oskari89
20:03:37 <frosch123> i.e. automatically generating the spritelayout callback and the spritelayout property
20:03:46 <andythenorth> that would be a relief
20:03:57 <andythenorth> I have real trouble understanding the station nfo
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20:04:12 <andythenorth> maybe newgrf stations v2 :P
20:05:26 <andythenorth> newstations_v19_final_final_revised_final.doc
20:05:40 <andythenorth> ^ a classic pattern for people who don’t have vcs
20:06:18 <oskari89> Overlaying of rivers could be second option when making scenario
20:06:43 <oskari89> (on a separate file after importing heightmap)
20:06:51 <Elyon> when I find myself without a vcs for whatever reason, I just have one copy properly named, and all copies named sequentially __0_cats.py, __1_cats.py etc.
20:07:11 <Elyon> anyway, what's inherently cumbersome/difficult regarding the current stations?
20:07:17 <Elyon> other than the fact you have to NFO it up?
20:08:11 <andythenorth> it appears to follow a quite different format to industries, houses
20:08:24 <andythenorth> or at least, I struggle to understand the station spec
20:08:30 <andythenorth> whereas industries are easy
20:08:40 <Elyon> hmm, well I haven't tried industries and only made nml houses
20:08:44 <andythenorth> someone else might know better than me
20:08:56 <andythenorth> I can barely edit CHIPS
20:09:06 <frosch123> i guess the most difficult part is the weirdness of tilelayouts (not spritelayouts)
20:09:24 <Elyon> yeah, I haven't gotten to those yet
20:09:29 <frosch123> industries have proper industry tiles, objects and houses do not have them
20:09:34 <frosch123> stations have them somewhat
20:09:57 <frosch123> but only 8, and they come with arbitrary implications
20:10:33 <andythenorth> apparently GRM enters the picture somehow also, or you need to manage compatibility with other sets
20:10:38 <andythenorth> but that might be FUD
20:11:02 <andythenorth> yexo and I got a lecture from OzTrans about it
20:11:13 <planetmaker> hm, I guess the lego awaits a re-use at the next re-union still
20:11:29 <Elyon> so uh ... sprite layouts lay out sprites in individual tiles, and tile layouts combine tiles to form "bigger" things, like the overpasses and stuff?
20:11:41 <frosch123> andythenorth: there is no GRM for stations
20:11:51 * andythenorth wonders what goes on in CHIPS
20:11:56 <frosch123> the only still existing usecase for GRM are custom recolour sprite for vehicles
20:12:05 <frosch123> all other use cases are obsolete
20:13:36 <Elyon> I wish I could understand enough of the structure of grfcodec to have it save more than one sprite in memory (which is what it seems to me that it is doing currently)
20:13:56 <frosch123> andythenorth: obsolete with advanced sprite layouts and extended action1
20:14:10 <andythenorth> does CHIPS need recoding? :P
20:14:16 <andythenorth> it’s kind of done and dead
20:14:52 <andythenorth> probably I should start CHIPS 2
20:15:10 <andythenorth> CHIPS is horribly
20:15:19 <Elyon> that is a lot of horror
20:15:30 <frosch123> Elyon: nml is faster in encoding than grfcodec, maybe you can code an nfo frontend for nml :p
20:15:34 <Elyon> I've used it extensively
20:15:47 <Elyon> frosch123: oh, so nml doesn't just build nfo and call grfcodec?
20:15:59 <planetmaker> it's two entirely different compilers
20:16:06 <planetmaker> like msvc to gcc to clang
20:16:07 <andythenorth> although that route is possible, nml can output nfo
20:16:12 <andythenorth> and imho it’s faster
20:16:27 <andythenorth> that might change
20:16:32 <planetmaker> you probably didn't test in the last 3 months, andythenorth ;)
20:16:32 <Elyon> it's also built around the current design of ottd rather than endless extensions of grfcodec
20:16:56 <andythenorth> planetmaker: exactly not
20:17:04 <Elyon> anyway I found 3000 sprites to compile in ~5 seconds, and ~40 minutes when I added alternates
20:17:14 <andythenorth> have I missed an nml release? o_O
20:17:26 <frosch123> Elyon: yes, grfcodec can only process one file at a time
20:17:44 <Elyon> frosch123: makes aligning alternates a bit painful :/
20:18:03 <frosch123> nml sorts the sprites per input file, and encodes them with opening each file only once, while not having to keep all files in memory
20:18:08 <Elyon> although in fairness, it /does/ make you precalculate offsets quite intensively
20:18:32 <Elyon> that sounds reasonable. So, nml stations it is. Eventually
20:18:42 <andythenorth> you can make multiple calls to grfcodec and link the result, but it’s really ugly
20:18:50 <frosch123> Elyon: if you have a useful intermediate format, we can patch nml to encode that instead
20:18:55 <planetmaker> dunno whether you missed frosch's performance commits, andythenorth :)
20:19:03 <frosch123> i just don't like implementing a nfo reader, since it is not lr1
20:19:04 <andythenorth> planetmaker: yes, reading devzone now
20:19:22 <andythenorth> I knew it was being done, but then silence here, or I was away :)
20:19:27 <frosch123> nfo is a horrible syntax to parse :)
20:19:38 <planetmaker> it probaby does not need entirely too much to teach stations to nml
20:19:39 <frosch123> planetmaker: well, i did not commit the multi-threading :p
20:19:46 <andythenorth> I’ll pull nml and compare later
20:19:54 <andythenorth> where is the speed gain? parsing?
20:20:06 <frosch123> no, sprite compression
20:20:08 <Elyon> frosch123: I have no useful intermediate format. I have a python library that generates generic nfo stuff, but only very specific features are implemented; ie. the ones we need in CATS
20:20:18 <frosch123> the other improvements are uncommitted
20:20:21 <andythenorth> someone had a much faster parser? Or did I imagine it?
20:20:43 <frosch123> uncommited: some minor speedups to encoding, parser cache, ...
20:22:43 <Elyon> or to put it differently: is there anything I can do while I wait for cats sprites? :3
20:23:17 <Elyon> if nothing else then just toy around to gather experience about possible conundrums
20:23:47 <planetmaker> or rather further thought
20:23:58 <dreck> interesting nick too even
20:25:04 <Elyon> well, that seems a bit old, yes. Although you don't want an interface for the nfo, but rather a further abstraction than what we see with houses/industries, yes?
20:25:38 <Elyon> dreck: I'm fine, thanks. You?
20:25:59 <dreck> doing ok..still trying sort a few different things out but mm eh
20:26:03 <planetmaker> there's nothing newer. And it's a start. And yes: an abstraction like for houses/industries is what will be nice
20:27:30 <dreck> theres always that group grf project I still need to do a bit more of but meh it can always wait
20:27:41 <Elyon> nml implementations are not subsets of what can be achieved with nfo, right?
20:27:56 <Elyon> dreck, oh and which one is that?
20:28:55 <planetmaker> Elyon, nml needs to create a valid grf. Thus yes: nml can never do more than nfo. However nfo might require much more code lines
20:28:58 <frosch123> that comparison does not work
20:29:10 <frosch123> with nfo you can achieve everything by definition
20:29:26 <Elyon> but I stated /subset/, not /superset/
20:29:31 <frosch123> the goal of nml to achieve everything meaningful :)
20:29:37 <Elyon> is nml intended to provide /exactly/ the same functionality eventually?
20:29:55 <Elyon> so deprecated/obsolete stuff is not implemented?
20:30:03 <frosch123> nml lacks various minor things of various features
20:30:19 <Elyon> such as ability to define new sprites or add vehicles
20:30:27 <frosch123> some things are handled automatically and not directly available to the user
20:30:59 <frosch123> for example: nml does not allow to reserve vehicle ids via grm since that is obsolete
20:31:11 <frosch123> nml does not allow encoding grfs with version != 8, since those are obsolete
20:31:47 <frosch123> nml does not implement the newer vehicle capacity system, since noone came up with a decent syntax
20:31:58 <andythenorth> there’s a newer one? o_O
20:32:08 <dreck> elyon well its basically a 'lite' japan set .. although someone did draw a few random individual sprites for usa too
20:32:10 <andythenorth> oh two different cbs?
20:32:22 <frosch123> andythenorth: i can link you to the two pretty pictures again :)
20:32:28 <Elyon> dreck, what kind of set?
20:32:46 <andythenorth> frosch123: etched into my brain already
20:32:54 <andythenorth> not an actual representation
20:32:59 <andythenorth> more like two spiders, fighting
20:33:14 <andythenorth> yeah, fighting spiders
20:33:35 <Elyon> for a db structure, it's not too bad
20:33:48 <Elyon> but as a flowchart ... hrm
20:34:06 <dreck> elyon full set but with a simplified trainset aside to localized industries
20:34:35 <dreck> frosch heh interesting wiki page
20:34:46 <Elyon> dreck, alright, sounds like quite a project
20:35:24 <dreck> elyon not that much really. the only problem is its slow to get all the multi-piece sprites finished (and I'm not the one drawing due to little luck with diagonals on too many things myself heh)
20:35:35 <frosch123> Elyon: 2.2. is my try of fixing the bugs with vehicle capacities and refitting. i achieved making it consistent, but i failed with making it easier :p
20:36:21 <Elyon> relevantees: so, uhm, who or what or huh will a less ancient/vague specification make?
20:36:39 <Elyon> frosch123, well consistency is pretty darn important
20:36:46 <andythenorth> hmm, I should really scrap CHIPS, it’s rubbish. nml stations would be just what I needed....
20:38:31 <Elyon> I was half tempted earlier to try and write some rudimentary grf compiler due to that ~40 minute compile time. I'd much rather work with nml, even if it turns out not-at-all fruitful
20:38:51 <Elyon> worst case, I'll get some experience. Best case, you'll be one step closer to having nml station support :3
20:38:52 * dreck is sticking to nfo for apparent compatibility reasons (but to our own)
20:44:24 <V453000> dreck who will create such sprites? :0
20:45:41 <planetmaker> dreck, what set requires nfo still?
20:48:01 <planetmaker> andythenorth, chips is anything but rubbish. It's my favourite station set when it comes to quickly eye-candying stations
20:48:13 <andythenorth> /me is thinking what needs redesigned
20:48:23 <planetmaker> there's no other station set with a similar ease-to-use to effect ratio
20:48:49 <andythenorth> first plan for next version is to offer individual tiles for every supported cargo type
20:48:59 <andythenorth> I’m not sure if I can hide tiles in a game based on available cargos though
20:49:00 <planetmaker> isr is nice, but you spend ages clicking together your favourite stations. too much choice really ;)
20:49:15 <andythenorth> having lots of tiles for non-available cargos would be ugly
20:49:40 <planetmaker> you can change availability based on that, I'd think
20:49:46 <planetmaker> thus effectively hide them
20:50:03 <andythenorth> second idea is to offer three versions of each tile
20:50:08 <planetmaker> local_param = cargo_available("LABL")
20:50:24 <andythenorth> low / medium / high capacity version of each tile
20:50:26 <planetmaker> if (local_param == 1) {
20:51:17 <planetmaker> err.... if (local_param != 1) { item(STATION, tile_id) { properties: { climate: 0; } } }
20:52:25 <andythenorth> so CHIPS is really nice and easy to use, but in a game it looks hideous when a station has more than one cargo
20:52:40 <andythenorth> constantly flipping between cargos, and looks worse on large stations
20:52:57 <Elyon> cats will be a contender there, possibly
20:53:03 <andythenorth> and the visual indicator for amounts waiting is barely useful
20:53:15 <andythenorth> because the information content of that varies so much by station
20:53:39 <andythenorth> some stations 50t waiting is a lot, some stations 1000t waiting is not much at all
20:53:59 <dreck> v453000 or can I still say mr.nut (heh?) a few different people actually. and planetmaker I still don't see anything in the tt threads/wiki about nml compatibility at all so with that in mind the sole choice was obvious anyway
20:54:17 <dreck> andythenorth well I guess it depends on player..to me if the station has 1000t then theres clearly something too wrong with the train routing
20:54:30 <andythenorth> yes it depends exactly on player
20:54:32 <Elyon> could be a transfer station
20:54:42 <dreck> elyon..a transfer station would have a pickup waiting :)
20:54:43 <Elyon> maybe you want to amass the limit of cargo
20:54:54 <Elyon> I wouldn't know, I don't play much :D
20:55:28 <Elyon> anyway at some point between gamestart and gameend you're bound to have stations amassing cargo
20:55:49 <dreck> oh and I dunno whats with the complain about isr...I just select one menu..click on station then its size...click it down and thats it
20:55:50 <planetmaker> dreck, nml needs no compatibility with anything... it simply implements the grf specs...
20:55:56 <Elyon> having a perfectly balanced system from the get-go can be tricky, especially for casual players
20:55:59 <planetmaker> not sure what compatibility you talk about at all
20:56:10 <planetmaker> but your choice to waste time on nfo :)
20:56:10 <V453000> dreck: which people? :D
20:56:24 * planetmaker only knows one relevant person who still codes in nfo :P
20:56:41 <dreck> so hence there is indeed a compatibility issue
20:56:49 <Elyon> what can't you find, again?
20:56:58 <dreck> v453000 others working on the grf together with me? :)
20:57:10 <V453000> that is obvious but who :)
20:57:11 <dreck> they're not really on the forum either tho
20:57:22 <andythenorth> eh? quite a few people still code in nfo
20:57:42 <andythenorth> pikka, snail, MB
20:57:49 <planetmaker> dreck, transport tycoon does not support *any* grf. So what should be about nml in that section?
20:57:52 <V453000> andythenorth: that just represents their sanity XD
20:58:03 <planetmaker> andythenorth, exactly one of those three is relevant ;)
20:58:04 <dreck> oh yeah I almost forgot andy..pikka's wiki finally works again..about due time
20:58:11 <dreck> planetmaker..it does support *nfo* grf
20:58:14 <andythenorth> I thought he’d delete it
20:58:16 <dreck> but nml isn't anywhere to be found
20:58:22 <andythenorth> pikka wiki is kind of dead afaik
20:58:32 <planetmaker> TT(D) does not support any grfs
20:58:45 <dreck> andythenorth...yeah..its nice to be able to check the ukrs2 vehicles without having to run an empty map with cheat on to find out when a loco came out etc
20:58:45 <V453000> pikka wiki shall get fixeth once it becomes enough of a priority :D
20:58:45 <Elyon> the patch might be what you're thinking of?
20:58:52 <frosch123> if you mean ttdp, which has a different forum, it only supports grf version 7
20:58:56 <planetmaker> ok, 5 grfs. But no newgrfs.
20:59:09 <frosch123> so, yes, nml indeed requires ottd 1.2, and does not work with ttdp
20:59:22 <planetmaker> oh, you spoil it, frosch123 ;)
20:59:39 <andythenorth> if you need to support TTDP, you do need nfo
20:59:42 <Rubidium> though grfcodec can easily make grfs that aren't compatible with ttd/ttdp
20:59:45 <dreck> andy...mind you I don't care if the wiki never gets updated...just as long as at least the ukrs2/etc vehicle list is accessible again
20:59:45 <andythenorth> it was a choice I had to make
21:00:10 <V453000> does anybody even play TTDP still? :0
21:00:17 <dreck> funny enough the separate ukrs1 site is still up (its a different host)
21:00:27 <andythenorth> legions of people
21:00:32 <andythenorth> due to superior features
21:00:43 <frosch123> anyway, most modern nfo grfs like pikka's and isr do not work in ttdp either
21:01:10 <dreck> eh? I have isr and it works fine (although its date is a bit old...might be why)
21:01:29 <planetmaker> isr > 0.9.x is OpenTTD only
21:02:10 <Elyon> wow I really need nickcolors
21:02:16 <dreck> andythenorth..I wouldn't always call it "superior" but yeah there seem to be tons of helpful things that ottd still has not copied like being able to curve tracks right from the bridge instead of after the bridgehead .. or the nice advanced signals .. etc
21:02:33 <andythenorth> superior physics
21:02:34 <dreck> at least I guess ottd does have some other things better tho
21:02:41 <andythenorth> buildable tunnel heads
21:02:48 <andythenorth> I dunno, never even see it
21:02:53 <andythenorth> everything I have is hearsay
21:02:56 <dreck> oh I almost forgot...track on top of tunnel portal..yeah I had to do that at times
21:03:01 <frosch123> andythenorth: stop making fun of the physics
21:03:20 <planetmaker> no, he's right. Physics is superior ;)
21:03:25 * Elyon suddenly recalls someone "translating" openttd en-gb and substituting every instance of "OpenTTD" with "Open Transport Tycoon Deluxe"
21:04:21 <frosch123> planetmaker: too much involvement with real life, i prefer maths
21:04:47 <frosch123> too much realism in physics
21:04:59 <planetmaker> yeah, it's pesky on that end indeed
21:05:28 <planetmaker> though if you get to string theory, the 'realism' part can be debated, too ;)
21:05:45 <planetmaker> But then, that's just math anyway :P
21:05:46 <Rubidium> luckily the vast majority of numbers in maths are not real ;)
21:05:47 <dreck> elyon heh..I've changed a few internal messages myself just out of humor. nothing that I would really want to release to anyone else tho. like how about "Are you trying to drown something else?" instead of the default "Can't raise land here"
21:08:05 <dreck> oh yeah..when will anyone reprogram the waypoint to work on diagonal tracks or hmm yeah :->
21:08:30 <Elyon> you're free to patch it yourself :3
21:08:46 <Rubidium> when someone figured out how to rotate graphics by 45 degrees without making them look ugly as hell?
21:08:47 <dreck> I'll rather deal with one kind of code.. not two so I'll pass :->
21:08:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: even though the real numbers are so abundant, it's actually really hard to find one (that is not also in a much simpler class of numbers)
21:08:59 <dreck> rubidium then why have diagonal trains at all? :)
21:09:34 <Rubidium> dreck: because someone decided, in the 1990s, to draw 8 orientations of (some) vehicles
21:09:48 <Elyon> wouldn't every factor of pi be a real number without being a rational one?
21:09:52 <Eddi|zuHause> almost all numbers that humans ever used are algebraic (including some non-real ones)
21:10:06 <dreck> well...signals are diagonal :)
21:10:06 <Rubidium> but that same person decided that stations are only to be drawn in 4 orientations (or for some only 2 or even 1)
21:10:08 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, finding non-real numbers is easy...
21:10:53 <dreck> typical dices have six sides .. but there are a few other types for specific games/countries too tho
21:11:21 <dreck> the ones with 14+ sides just....seem crazy .. like you have to throw them gentilely to avoid it rolling a long way :)
21:11:33 <Eddi|zuHause> dreck: but with these dices you can only ever find natural numbers
21:11:54 <Rubidium> regardless, there not being graphics is a major problem for other orientations...
21:11:58 <Elyon> that seems... an unwieldy number for a die
21:12:00 <Eddi|zuHause> dreck: typical dices come in 4,6,8,10,12 and 20
21:12:23 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: you forgot the coin
21:12:27 <Elyon> I can agree to one dice, but not two dices
21:12:36 <planetmaker> I've recently seen a D3, too
21:12:39 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: true, but that's usually not called a dice :)
21:13:03 <frosch123> planetmaker: a D6 with same number on opposite sides? or something more fancy?
21:13:03 <Rubidium> frosch123: most coins fall in the 14+ category
21:13:10 <Elyon> the coin has an ill-defined number of discrete sides, as well
21:13:26 <planetmaker> frosch123, much more fancy. Like a D4 but with one side rounded
21:13:40 <dreck> although that light blue one with multiply numbers to one face is odd
21:14:03 <frosch123> ah, well, i prefer the 2xD10 with two colours, instead of the pure D100
21:14:14 <frosch123> the D100 is hard to roll, and hard to read
21:14:22 <planetmaker> yup, my "D100" is also two D10
21:14:26 <Eddi|zuHause> dreck: the green in the background is a D12, and the blue and the transparent green one are both D20
21:14:48 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: "D100" seems really impractical :p
21:14:56 <planetmaker> and the left light blue one is a D4
21:15:15 <planetmaker> the number at the base is what counts
21:15:42 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, indeed it is. Yet I've once seen one. Very impractical
21:16:05 <frosch123> i assume i already told the story of my colour-blind brother being surprised by my dice with no dots at all...
21:16:10 <Elyon> meh, reserved/keywords :( :(
21:16:22 <Elyon> I want `station.class = station_class`
21:16:25 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i don't think i heard that
21:16:30 <planetmaker> he, I don't think either
21:16:44 <frosch123> i have really pretty red dice with black sparkles and green dots
21:16:44 <dreck> about numbers..I think I've seen at least one game that had two "matched" dices .. one had a range of number and other had unique range of its own numbers too (eg 4 would be only on first dice and 9 on only other one)
21:16:53 <dreck> not sure what people really call that sort of weirdo
21:17:03 <frosch123> and my brother asked me, what's the point of dice without any numbers or dots :p
21:17:24 <Elyon> at least they're not invisible, etc.
21:17:29 <Eddi|zuHause> dreck: you can have all sorts of things on the dice
21:17:44 <dreck> about colored dices...take a old rube cube and bash it apart .. and there you go you got 10+ different color-only dices to play with? :P
21:17:45 <Eddi|zuHause> games use all sorts of symbols on D6
21:18:06 <dreck> hmm what was the name? I know it was 'r-something cube'
21:18:21 <dreck> duh..goes to show how I never ever tried play these things ^
21:18:35 <frosch123> i can solve the 3x3 one
21:18:41 <Eddi|zuHause> i never seriously tried to solve one
21:18:56 <frosch123> the 2x2 is a bitch, the 4x4 and 5x5 ones i did not even try
21:19:16 <frosch123> i think there was even a 12 sided one
21:19:33 <dreck> I do like blokus tho :) any sizes is fine with me
21:19:36 <Elyon> 5x5 is supposedly pretty unstable
21:19:51 <dreck> the 3D version someone had (and I've played it with him a few times) is a bit amusing to say the least
21:20:17 <Eddi|zuHause> i think the general strategy to solve these things is to pick two fields that you want to flip, while everything else stays the same
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21:20:45 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: the 3x3 one has 2 and 3-cycles
21:21:46 <frosch123> so, you need to know the 3-cycle moves in both directions, or execute them twice
21:22:02 <Eddi|zuHause> there is a proof that for any constellation of a 3x3 cube, you can solve it in 20 moves
21:22:21 <Elyon> 20, now? last I heard was 21
21:22:28 <frosch123> oh, i can create a constellation that is unsolvable :p
21:22:30 <Elyon> and I believe the 'proof' is just bruteforce exhaustion
21:22:43 <frosch123> like the class 20-19 puzzle, or how was it called?
21:23:08 <dreck> heh eddi...I can't recall where it came from but I remember someone stated that after a long time using an automated screen app to do it...he tested every single Freecell games in windows...
21:23:12 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: sure, there are "illegal" constellations when you take it apart and put it back together
21:23:23 <dreck> and not surprisingly he came to one that could -not- even be solved at all as the aces were all the way in the back etc
21:23:40 <dreck> I dunno why I remember this now ^
21:23:54 <Eddi|zuHause> dreck: sure, it's easy to construct such an unsolvable game.
21:24:22 <frosch123> the 7x7 looks fancy
21:24:59 <__ln___> i'd prefer 1x1 for simplicity
21:26:01 <dreck> oh wikipedia says there appears to be at least eight
21:26:22 <dreck> thats not a surprise tho
21:27:06 <Elyon> is there any downside to having all your sprites in one spriteset?
21:27:35 <dreck> elyon if your filesize is over 60+ lines long..it could get a bit dense to upload/download basically?
21:27:42 <dreck> thats the only thing I can think of
21:28:00 <Elyon> the twine are not related
21:28:02 <dreck> well its only a few sprites per line no?
21:28:32 <Elyon> I'm already doing 3700+ sprites in one set and that seems fine, I'm just wondering if I will have any issues down the line
21:28:51 <Elyon> and what does upload/download have to do with it?
21:28:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Elyon: the usual problem with binary files is that you cannot have line-based diffs, but have to replace the whole file each time you change a single pixel
21:29:13 <dreck> eddi..ah yes..the update problem too...I almost forgot
21:29:35 <frosch123> Elyon: you can only have 64k sprites in one spriteset :p and you cannot use the little/lots spriteset selection
21:29:37 <Eddi|zuHause> and you're usually changing only a few sprites at a time
21:29:41 <Elyon> but compile-time problems notwithstanding - any performance/similar issues I might run into?
21:30:12 <Elyon> frosch123: little/lots is not precise enough for what I'm doing anyway - and I assume the cap is 65,536?
21:30:33 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that is what 64k means
21:30:36 <Elyon> hmm ... I don't think we'll be hitting that. should be ~10,000, tops
21:30:37 <dreck> this almost sounds like normal programming suggestions...use several multiply small/medium sized chunks than one big fat chunk .. etca
21:30:43 <Elyon> 64Ki would mean that, I think?
21:31:01 <Eddi|zuHause> nobody uses that
21:31:14 <frosch123> Elyon: unless you use register offsets, the limit may even be 8k
21:31:20 <Elyon> I use yottagrammes in my gamedev
21:31:36 <Elyon> frosch123, hmm. That could potentially become an issue
21:31:49 <Elyon> is there any downside to having 10,000 spritesets then? :D
21:31:51 <frosch123> the action0 spritelayout can only take numbers up to 8k i think
21:31:57 <frosch123> after that you need to use registers
21:32:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Elyon: why would you use an abbreviation and then make it longer for no reason?
21:32:17 <frosch123> Elyon: you cannot choose from 10k spritesets easily
21:32:24 <Elyon> the k abbreviation is usually understood to be kilo, though, right?
21:32:48 <frosch123> in this context it is binary kilo, so maybe "ki"?
21:32:50 <Elyon> frosch123: the sprites may possibly all be used in the same layout
21:33:14 <frosch123> one layout can use 4 spritesets at once at max
21:33:18 <Elyon> binary 'kilo' is still pretty vague - hence apple harddrives of 250GB are only 250,000,000,000 bytes
21:33:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Elyon: i've never seen a context where it wasn't clear which base of k was meant, except for drive manufacturers which do not stick to the convention for marketing reason
21:33:35 <frosch123> and that actually comes with a performance impact, though not sure whether it is relevant
21:33:45 <frosch123> since the sprites are resolved for 4 differen var10 values
21:33:47 <Elyon> yeah, well ... I'm just being picky. I know you meant 2^10
21:34:40 <frosch123> oh, and you run into the custom foundation conflict
21:34:58 <frosch123> so, 10k per spriteset is better than 10k spritesets in about every case :p
21:35:57 * andythenorth waits for a back up to back up
21:36:39 <Eddi|zuHause> # back down for what (*crash*)
21:37:38 <andythenorth> yesterday I saw behaviour that almost is an early smell of corrupt boot volume
21:37:49 <andythenorth> today I found that one of my two backups is dead dead dead dead :P
21:38:07 <dreck> if you have a crash with no back to it....you're missing some prior procedures you were supposed to do :)
21:38:15 <andythenorth> so now I have to sit and watch 450GB copy over slow USB 3
21:38:24 <andythenorth> to a slow piece of spinning glass
21:39:34 <frosch123> you can always ask the nsa for the backup
21:39:51 <andythenorth> do they have a postal address?
21:39:58 <andythenorth> or can I just tweet?
21:47:40 <frosch123> andythenorth: just leave a post-it on your desk
21:50:45 <andythenorth> I don’t have a desk
21:51:11 <Elyon> okay, since I don't know the first thing about the nml lexer/parser, I'm just going to generalise this nfo library to deal with all station properties
21:51:53 <Elyon> that way maybe it'll actually be useful to others until such time as nml <- stations
21:53:33 <andythenorth> if it handles similar cases to CHIPS, might be interesting
21:53:39 <andythenorth> all my other compiles are python
21:54:24 <Elyon> well ideally it would handle everything considered "not deprecated" or possibly just "not obsolete"
21:55:03 <Elyon> albeit not meant as any sort of replacement for nml stations
21:56:54 <andythenorth> 407GB of 450GB done :P
21:56:59 * andythenorth wants to go to bed
21:57:12 <andythenorth> phew, at least my microsoft IE VMs are backed up :P
21:57:24 <andythenorth> wouldn’t want to lose those and have to freely download them again
21:57:39 <andythenorth> also all my repos, thanks goodness, and my local copy of dropbox
21:57:48 <andythenorth> and my gmail, which I never read
21:58:15 <frosch123> yeah, the nsa should really get more customer oriented
21:58:19 <andythenorth> and my OS, which is only available for free, on the internet
21:58:20 <frosch123> and tell you if there is an important mail
21:58:38 <andythenorth> frosch123: that’s the kind of service government should stay out of
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21:58:52 <andythenorth> impedes private enterprise
21:59:11 <frosch123> aw, no competition?
21:59:26 <andythenorth> especially the nsa
21:59:34 <andythenorth> also, I know if there was an important mail, because someone phones me
21:59:59 <frosch123> well, at least they don't walk by :p
22:00:27 <andythenorth> the ones that can walk by don’t bother emailing
22:00:44 <andythenorth> just doesn’t know it yet
22:00:56 <frosch123> you do not have email postmen?
22:01:30 <frosch123> i know many who visit my desk and start with "i just sent you a mail"
22:01:32 <andythenorth> ho, maybe I should make a tedious electronic messaging grf
22:01:38 <frosch123> i believe i have done it myself as well :p
22:01:47 <andythenorth> deliver 10k tweets to frodinghampton
22:01:58 <andythenorth> deliver 1000t of email to gobblebridge
22:02:36 <andythenorth> ‘All MSN industries announce imminent closure'
22:02:37 <frosch123> yeah, but the udp vehicles suck
22:02:44 <frosch123> they have not increased capacity for years
22:03:49 <andythenorth> ha backup completed
22:04:04 <frosch123> would you include an refactoring plant?
22:04:43 <frosch123> or is bidirectional code transport between them too boring?
22:05:08 <andythenorth> I think it’s an under-rated game mechanic
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22:41:59 <Elyon> okay hmm, I might just go with injecting raw NFO for varaction2/advanced
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