IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-12-27
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01:07:14 <argoneus> I wish you could read books and watch movies without finishing them
01:07:26 <argoneus> because the feeling "oh it's not real, nevermind" afterwards is annoying
01:38:25 *** Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
01:38:35 <Flygon> argoneus: And this is why MMORPGs are popular :D
01:40:49 <argoneus> I just finished steins;gate after 30 hours (a visual novel) and I wish I could live in such a world
01:41:00 <Flygon> I admit I haven't read that one
01:41:12 <argoneus> it's just that feeling of emptiness
01:41:16 <argoneus> after you have exhausted the story completely
01:43:15 <Flygon> Sorry for the delay, trying to figure out what to title a pic for subbing to gallery
01:44:54 <Flygon> Not if I don't want to get banned from #openttd I won't :P
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08:28:42 <andythenorth> maybe today is GS saturday
08:29:05 <andythenorth> probably depends if I am 100% in-demand by my kids
08:32:12 <Alberth> I had a preliminary GS idea too yesterday, just ask for delivery of random amount of random cargo, at random spot in the world (with some restrictions, so you actually get feasible requests)
08:32:32 <Alberth> amounts doesn't have to be big
08:33:48 <Alberth> just query 3-5 at the same time so the use can choose what to do, or what to do first
08:34:02 <Alberth> I was still pondering score
08:43:15 <andythenorth> number of challenges complete in 100 years
08:43:22 <andythenorth> 100 to be player configurable
08:44:03 <andythenorth> the actual ‘win’ doesn’t matter for GS imho
08:44:14 <andythenorth> just gives a direction to the game, instead of pure sandbox
08:47:23 <andythenorth> Alberth: is it a fixed quantity to be delivered, a fixed quantity within a deadline, or a fixed amount per year?
08:48:49 <Alberth> don't know, I was pondering to have a slowly decreasing score, so you cannot get 100% ever
08:49:01 <Alberth> but any of the above will do, imho
08:49:15 <andythenorth> I think it’s most relaxed with fixed quantity, like a directed sandbox
08:49:25 <andythenorth> fixed amount per year is quite intense, lots of network maintaining
08:49:43 <Alberth> (the former, fixed quantity)
08:50:01 <Alberth> can always be extended to other forms :)
08:50:02 <andythenorth> “can’t get 100% ever” sounds a bit like Dwarf Fortress
08:50:06 <andythenorth> which I haven’t played :)
08:50:28 <andythenorth> I dunno, for single-player I don’t know if much score is needed
08:50:35 <Alberth> but it opens the road to competition with yourself
08:50:36 <andythenorth> my kids play lots of casual games with no win conditions
08:50:43 <andythenorth> just constant mini-challenges
08:51:02 <andythenorth> I am not -1 to scores and win conditions, just can’t think of any
08:51:35 <andythenorth> “there is a zombie convention in Milan, deliver 75 carloads of zombies"
08:51:58 <Alberth> it needs to create challenges first, before you can consider winning or scoring at all
08:51:59 <andythenorth> “the mayor of Amsterdam is building a new statue of himself, deliver 75 loads of steel"
08:52:55 <andythenorth> so…NoCarGoal and SV both have very black/white win conditions
08:52:58 <Alberth> he'd probably order a complete statue :p
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08:53:44 <Alberth> NoCargoGoal has few challenges, and then you have to wait
08:54:00 <Alberth> SV is a LOT of work, the few times I played it
08:54:51 <andythenorth> SV focuses a whole network
08:54:51 <Alberth> imho it should have small challenges, and concentrate on getting infra structure
08:54:56 <andythenorth> it’s fun, but I’ve done SV to death
08:55:16 <Alberth> large amount of cargo is not that interesting, imho
08:55:38 <andythenorth> the idea I was kicking around with pikka was constant mini-challenges
08:55:39 <Alberth> you can of course stack small challenges on top of each other
08:55:41 <andythenorth> of different kinds
08:56:45 <Alberth> once you have delivered steel for the statue, ask for double or triple that amount in the same time (or even first measure the rate of delivery)
08:57:18 <Alberth> but just simple small challenges seems like a nice idea for now
08:57:40 <andythenorth> so my problem with sandbox...
08:58:00 <andythenorth> I never get any attachment to the game, because there’s no end goal or achievement
08:58:19 <andythenorth> the only achievements are (1) being profitable (2) seeing how long before I get bored
08:59:20 <andythenorth> the cargo challenges solve that, but they require quite ruthless gameplay
08:59:27 <Alberth> not sure you can do anything else with a game that one played for say, a decade
08:59:43 <andythenorth> ottd is quite good for tinkering, but that gets put aside in a cargo goal game
09:00:08 <andythenorth> it would be nice to have obscure goals, like connecting small towns etc
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09:01:00 <andythenorth> connnect all the towns on one island
09:01:01 <Alberth> I was considering to have both industries and towns as targets for cargo
09:01:37 <Alberth> and I have no problem with a flag 'no industries' and 'no towns'
09:01:53 <andythenorth> main player activities seem to be: build routes, deliver cargo, fund industries
09:01:58 <andythenorth> what else is fun to do?
09:02:38 <Alberth> baby-sitting a town seems a popular play style, although I somewhat fail to see why
09:02:51 <Alberth> but I am not much of a 'town' player
09:03:37 <andythenorth> I don’t like baby-sitting towns
09:04:04 <andythenorth> town population just seems to be a proxy for ‘score'
09:04:09 <andythenorth> why not just have a score?
09:04:22 <Alberth> and it's not a challenge that you can fail, I think. You need X amounts to get growth. If you fail, you just don't get growth
09:05:16 <andythenorth> “Universal Maglev have offerered you a discount on their new train, if you build 10 by the end of the year”
09:05:23 <Alberth> perhaps in MP where the goal is to first reach a population of X
09:06:24 <Alberth> money doesn't seem interesting to me, we all have plenty of the stuff
09:06:25 <andythenorth> “Ponningville streets are congested, the town council want a metro transporting 50% of population"
09:06:45 <Alberth> ^^ that would be nicer
09:07:18 <Alberth> did you look at gs-awards?
09:07:37 <andythenorth> is there a docs section for it?
09:07:41 <Alberth> that sounds somewhat like a collection of achievements
09:08:06 <andythenorth> most of the casual games I play have some kind of awards thing
09:08:16 <andythenorth> I find them a bit meaningless, but they set up the challenges I guessed
09:08:31 <andythenorth> although some are really stupid
09:09:06 <andythenorth> yeah, that’s the kind of awards that bore me :)
09:09:18 <Alberth> very few people play true casual games
09:09:40 <Alberth> you also see that with OpenTTD, lots of people seek some form of challenge in the game :)
09:10:00 <Alberth> so for selling a game, it's obligatory, I think
09:10:22 <andythenorth> so ‘deliver x amount to location z’ is fine
09:10:26 <andythenorth> for a starting point
09:10:51 <andythenorth> the main thing is to offer 3-5 challenges, and how to report on progress
09:10:58 <andythenorth> I think the challenges would be extensible later
09:11:29 <andythenorth> needs a name, and a repo
09:11:48 <Alberth> the one thing I always miss in nocargoal is an extrapolation of finishing time
09:12:20 <Alberth> it says year x month y, z% delivered
09:12:34 <Alberth> but not when 100% will be reached
09:12:44 <andythenorth> so a rate function
09:12:52 <andythenorth> at current rate, 3 years
09:13:08 <Alberth> something like that would be useful imho
09:14:13 <andythenorth> or something else?
09:14:23 <Alberth> challenge-goals, contract-gs ?
09:15:21 <andythenorth> could shorten it to busby.gs
09:15:22 <Alberth> changing to 'hive' in MP :p
09:16:07 <andythenorth> make an AI to play it
09:16:42 <Alberth> tbh I have no idea how to code a GS
09:17:25 <andythenorth> me neither, but that’s my default state for all programming
09:17:50 <andythenorth> some would say I have no idea how to code a newgrf either :)
09:18:05 <Alberth> including yourself :)
09:18:37 <andythenorth> not sure whether to start with Zuu’s minimal.gs
09:18:41 <andythenorth> or work backwards from SV
09:19:54 <andythenorth> probably the ‘current goal progress’ function is the most important
09:20:12 <andythenorth> goal generation can be quite dumb initially
09:20:20 <andythenorth> and players don’t need to choose goals initiallly
09:21:02 <Alberth> I would start from scratch first, to get an idea what I am doing :)
09:23:16 <Alberth> hmm, doesn't explain it at all :(
09:23:17 <andythenorth> target trunk, not a released version? Bleeding edge…
09:23:45 <Alberth> yeah, aiming for 1.5 :p
09:23:59 <Alberth> but trunk-only is fine too by me
09:26:40 * andythenorth waits for the repo
09:27:29 <andythenorth> there must be some kind of loop which calls the GS every n ticks or whatever
09:27:42 <andythenorth> and probably some kind of persistent data structures?
09:29:22 <Alberth> hmm, still lots of old 32bpp graphics pages at the wiki
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09:36:29 <Alberth> am I supposed to use bin/game for my GS-es? it's filled with compatibility files
09:36:53 <andythenorth> mine appear to be in there
09:37:09 <andythenorth> also some in content_download/game
09:38:14 <Alberth> that's automagic downloaded stuff
09:38:36 <Alberth> you're not supposed to touch that, although I break that rule all the time :)
09:38:37 <andythenorth> is that name just a convention?
09:38:47 * andythenorth is looking at SV and NCG
09:39:15 <andythenorth> planetmaker: written much GS? o_O
09:39:15 <Alberth> probably, "extends AIInfo" stuff is the crucial bit I think
09:39:25 <andythenorth> or extends GSInfo
09:39:54 <planetmaker> andythenorth, writen no GS at all
09:40:10 <andythenorth> care to begin? o_O
09:40:28 <planetmaker> Would mean more unfinished projects :)
09:41:27 <andythenorth> Alberth: my editor is set that way
09:41:34 <andythenorth> seems to be the convention in other GS
09:41:44 <andythenorth> that work for you?
09:43:34 * andythenorth wonders how to reload GS
09:45:28 <andythenorth> got it selectable by player
09:49:06 <planetmaker> you got to reload the savegame, afaik. Not sure the file is re-read, though
09:49:17 <Alberth> yeah 4 spaces is fine
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09:51:06 * andythenorth trying to make a script that tells you a joke at game start
09:51:43 <Alberth> euhm, you're using tabs :)
09:55:19 <andythenorth> can’t find docs for GetAPIVersion
09:55:31 <andythenorth> maybe it’s just strings, and ‘trunk’ is acceptable?
09:57:16 <Alberth> I would expect "1.5" tbh
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10:00:07 <andythenorth> seems to work with trunk
10:02:45 <Alberth> tick example seems to work
10:06:20 <andythenorth> I have one locally that is empty and crashes
10:06:55 <andythenorth> make it tell a random joke every time it runs?
10:07:10 <andythenorth> I find it helpful to learn by doing something stupid first :)
10:07:37 <andythenorth> reduces the amount of bad design baked into the actual thing I’m making
10:10:33 <Alberth> hmm, how to make a random number
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10:20:29 <Alberth> math.rand, and Math.rand are both not recgonized on "[mM]ath" it needs some import or so, probably
10:27:50 <Alberth> nice, language reference has no "import" :p
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10:46:34 <andythenorth> looks like there is an equivalent of python random.choice()
10:47:09 <andythenorth> also GSBase.RandRange(3)
10:47:27 <andythenorth> and GSBase.Rand()
10:48:17 <Alberth> no idea how to use anything from math tbh
10:48:28 <Alberth> maybe it's even broken
10:54:51 <Alberth> andythenorth: pushed a main.nut
11:00:04 <Alberth> andythenorth: pushed examining + printing of cargoes
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11:06:14 * andythenorth needs to figure out how to read logs
11:06:57 <andythenorth> “You are in a lake"
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11:19:36 <andythenorth> you have 3 gold coins, 2 arrows, and a smelly fish
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11:59:08 * andythenorth tries to make GSNews() work
11:59:15 <andythenorth> I don’t understand the notation style in the docs yet
12:00:13 <andythenorth> GSCompany::CompanyID
12:02:16 <Alberth> most likely just a company number
12:02:50 <andythenorth> looks like there’s a constant COMPANY_SELF
12:03:22 <andythenorth> GSCompany.ResolveCompanyID(COMPANY_SELF) fails though
12:04:18 <Alberth> I would hope so, as the GS is not a company, unless you do something with GSCompanyMode
12:05:03 <Alberth> I would expect that GSCompany.COMPANY_FIRST to ... _LAST gives a range of company numbers
12:06:02 <Alberth> then use GSCompany::ResolveCompanyID(c) to filter the invalid companies out, or so
12:19:05 <Jinassi> anyone see my post from a day ago? seems like someone is anxious to make a trailer for openttd by injecting code to get cash and/or other stuff and thus creating a desync and making other players desync too. Luaduck has a plan to make or adjust a server, so you have a say in it too(probably pulling logs, troubleshooting if there's time, etc)
12:22:59 <Alberth> not seen it at tt-forums
12:25:13 <Jinassi> Thread was deleted, hence the snapshot
12:27:18 <Alberth> I don't understand what you're saying
12:27:51 <Alberth> someone is trying to hack openttd, and failing, ..... ?
12:28:09 <Jinassi> and desyncing, perhaps thats one of the reasons
12:29:58 <Alberth> oh, right. Yeah, it would desync sooner or later
12:31:33 <peter1138> Hey guys, I hacked it so my client thinks I have more than the server does...
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12:32:57 <Jinassi> just giving a heads up tho, thought you might want to know
12:34:47 <Alberth> ok, thanks for letting us know. No idea how to use that information though :(
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13:00:04 <romazoon> andy: i tried road hoag nightlies from last night, thanks, it s indeed a tad smoother in my cities
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14:34:42 <andythenorth> so in Squirrel, “function CompanyData::CreateGoals()” is similar to a python class function?
14:35:05 <andythenorth> it’s scoped to CompanyData class?
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14:41:32 <Alberth> I don't understand why you can also state it in the class part however, maybe part of the public interface?
14:45:18 <andythenorth> I just made a news message appear btw
14:45:34 <andythenorth> small victories :P
14:48:20 <Alberth> quite stuck what to do next though
14:48:47 <andythenorth> build a list of destinations and sources
14:49:36 <Alberth> GSIndustryList_CargoAccepting::GSIndustryList_CargoAccepting ( CargoID cargo_id ) ?
14:49:38 <andythenorth> how do I do equivalent of ‘reset’ on a mercurial repo?
14:49:46 <andythenorth> stack overflow doesn’t know either
14:49:51 <andythenorth> I guess I just rm it and clone again
14:50:06 <Alberth> depends on what you want to do
14:50:14 <Alberth> hg rollback undoes the last commit
14:50:40 <Alberth> hg revert goes back to the last committed state iirc
14:50:42 <andythenorth> I wanted to bin an attempted merge
14:50:50 <andythenorth> and lose all my changes
14:51:04 <andythenorth> but I was stuck with all the LOCAL / REMOTE lines in my files
14:51:07 <andythenorth> anyway I binned the repo
14:51:35 <Alberth> warning: conflicts during merge.
14:51:35 <Alberth> merging info.nut incomplete! (edit conflicts, then use 'hg resolve --mark')
14:51:35 <Alberth> 0 files updated, 0 files merged, 0 files removed, 1 files unresolved
14:51:35 <Alberth> use 'hg resolve' to retry unresolved file merges or 'hg update -C .' to abandon
14:51:46 <Alberth> probably just hg update
14:52:17 <andythenorth> I’ll try that next time
14:52:29 <Alberth> it didn't give this text?
14:53:09 <andythenorth> pdq2s-MacBook-Pro-2:busy-bee-gs andy $ hg up
14:53:09 <andythenorth> 0 files updated, 0 files merged, 0 files removed, 0 files unresolved
14:53:16 <andythenorth> pdq2s-MacBook-Pro-2:busy-bee-gs andy $ hg commit -m "Change: make a news message appear (annoying)"
14:53:17 <andythenorth> abort: unresolved merge conflicts (see hg help resolve)
14:53:32 <andythenorth> if 0 files are unresolved, then why I have to fix unresolved merge conflicts I don’t know
14:53:40 <andythenorth> I have fallen out of love with hg tbh
14:53:57 <michi_cc> andythenorth: "or 'hg update -C .' to abandon" ,aybe?
14:54:05 <andythenorth> maybe, next time
14:54:09 <andythenorth> I pushed the news message
14:55:13 <andythenorth> Alberth: so we need lists of cargo destination/source pairs?
14:55:24 <andythenorth> and possibly the distance between them?
14:55:59 * andythenorth has ideas about different flavours of goal, long distance versus short distance etc
14:56:21 <andythenorth> might be too map-dependent though
14:57:13 <Alberth> I think you normally have both
15:00:27 * andythenorth making lang work
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15:22:25 <andythenorth> pushed a goal question dialog
15:26:40 <andythenorth> I need to look at the story book
15:26:53 <andythenorth> will do that next
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17:45:31 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27099 trunk/src/lang/spanish.txt (2014-12-27 17:45:27 UTC)
17:45:32 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:33 <DorpsGek> spanish - 2 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
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18:22:29 <andythenorth> Alberth: maybe the coal mine does that? But we never noticed? o_O
18:23:14 <Alberth> you'd hope you'd also get an oil well and a oil refinery in that case "p
18:27:02 <Alberth> maybe the data doesn't get properly copied or so, although I would expect more people to have problems in that case
18:33:00 <andythenorth> so L9 is logging “accept oil…”?
18:33:57 <andythenorth> I need to try the paste I guess, just reading it while I feed child #2
18:34:50 <Alberth> I may need to dig in the c++ code to understand what is happening
18:39:11 <argoneus> why is steins;gate such a masterpiece :(
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18:56:29 <andythenorth> SV probably uses the accept function
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19:36:28 <andythenorth> cargo PASS is reported as having town effect?
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19:55:02 <andythenorth> Alberth: I tried logging GSLog.Info(GSIndustryList_CargoAccepting(cid))
19:55:08 <andythenorth> reports the same hash for every cargo
19:55:34 <andythenorth> I dunno how squirrel works, but in python, I would expect the same object id for every list of industries accepting a cargo...
19:56:35 <Alberth> yeah, I vaguely remember a problem in AI with lists
19:56:39 <andythenorth> that function isn’t used in SV, NCG or Superlib, so maybe nobody has tried it
19:56:52 <andythenorth> that function = GSIndustryList_CargoAccepting
19:57:56 <Alberth> I'll need to dig in the c++ code
19:59:19 <andythenorth> hmm it’s inconsistent, sometimes the hash varies
20:00:48 <Alberth> perhaps the garbage collector of squirrel
20:01:11 <andythenorth> I’ll poke in the story book for a bit
20:01:30 <Alberth> the other option is to check industry type (mapping cargo -> good ind types), and then walk through the industry list
20:03:54 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: Zuu was last seen in #openttd 3 days, 23 hours, 59 minutes, and 21 seconds ago: <Zuu> EcoCarGoal? :-)
20:04:13 <Alberth> he drops in every now and then
20:04:43 <andythenorth> said he would be busy this christmas
20:05:21 <Alberth> oh right, I read something along those lines
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20:06:58 <andythenorth> no that’s a different function, similar name
20:13:52 <andythenorth> can’t see anything obviously wrong in script_industrylist.cpp
20:14:06 <andythenorth> but by C++ is bad
20:14:39 <Alberth> you should probably print the data to check what goes in
20:16:29 <andythenorth> no idea how to do that :)
20:16:38 <andythenorth> google was not my friend
20:19:29 <Alberth> it's unlikely that no AI ever used this function :)
20:22:37 <Alberth> indeed, code looks fine on first sight
20:25:27 <andythenorth> is that scoping a list before using it?
20:26:29 <Alberth> local indList = AIList(); indList.AddList(... cargo_accepting (... ) )
20:27:14 <Alberth> it does add for each cargo, which would seem to give a lot of duplicates to me
20:29:52 <andythenorth> I get different length lists
20:29:58 <andythenorth> but always industry index 0
20:32:38 <Alberth> Accept: adding industry 4
20:32:38 <Alberth> Accept: adding industry 10
20:32:38 <Alberth> Accept: adding industry 26
20:32:38 <Alberth> Producing: adding industry 8
20:32:38 <Alberth> Producing: adding industry 22 <-- c++ code seems to work
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20:41:02 <Alberth> foreach (accept_ind, _ in accept_inds) {
20:41:25 <Alberth> you get a pair of values for some reason
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21:04:14 <peter1138> 20:54 < adept256> also the les paul sg is for midgets
21:04:14 <peter1138> 20:54 < petern> Also his neck is massive.
21:04:14 <peter1138> 20:54 < adept256> which doesn't surprise my when he gets a mandolin
21:04:14 <peter1138> 20:54 < petern> (Is that relevant?)
21:04:17 <peter1138> 20:54 < adept256> for the acoustic bass?
21:04:46 <peter1138> why did it paste 5 lines before asking me if i wanted to paste... :S
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