IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-12-05
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10:51:51 <dreck> whats new gamewise with you anyway?
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15:00:15 <dihedral> i heard planetmaker wanted to host the next release party...?
15:02:38 <V453000> nonsense, nobody would ever go to germany to any party
15:03:18 <dihedral> let's all visit belugas... he could eventually have more time for developing again if we did that :-P
15:03:39 <V453000> if you imprison him perhaps I figure
15:05:33 <dihedral> don't do that. endangered species and stuff, you know?
15:17:06 <Belugas> and he can even burn you with his cigarets!
15:24:32 <dihedral> go back to your basket ;-)
15:25:05 <Belugas> i'll drink to that ;)
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16:28:47 <jjavaholic> I have a problem where broken down coal vans play an effect on production effecting production
16:29:10 <jjavaholic> I thought creating one way roads would provide for this
16:39:32 <Belugas> salut Rubidium, noble seigneur du OpenTTD :)
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16:56:12 <Belugas> yo Xaroth :) I'm working as well!!
16:56:27 <Belugas> althoug cannot say it's very productive...
16:56:49 <Belugas> christmas office party has already started
17:02:23 <Alberth> those termites make expensive tracks :)
17:03:20 <Belugas> i wish party could go on for 2 weeks lol!
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17:45:18 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27074 trunk/src/lang/japanese.txt (2014-12-05 17:45:14 UTC)
17:45:19 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:20 <DorpsGek> japanese - 16 changes by guppy
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18:04:22 <andythenorth> nah looks legit to me
18:04:30 <andythenorth> call it “realism"
18:05:02 <Alberth> I was trying to run truck too, but I have none :)
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18:06:00 <andythenorth> add it to your running game
18:06:05 <Alberth> maybe I should start again
18:06:14 <andythenorth> just add the grf :P
18:06:31 <andythenorth> unless you have already built default RVs
18:06:42 <andythenorth> road hog is getting almost nice
18:06:59 <Alberth> termite tracks is expensive :)
18:13:14 <andythenorth> I never looked at the costs
18:14:11 <Alberth> running cost of iron horse is higher, so it kills your profit quickly if you're not careful
18:14:45 <Alberth> making 20k pound / year makes for very slow building
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18:22:31 <andythenorth> Alberth: out of interest, what cost settings for your game?
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18:25:41 <Alberth> The real money maker is at Bobonisse
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19:07:21 <Alberth> wouldn't it be useful if FIRS would use the climate selection for "basic eceonomy"
19:07:48 <Alberth> it's a bit weird to play basic arctic economy in temperate climate :p
19:09:34 <planetmaker> Alberth, yes, that'd make sense. It'd also make sense to make 'basic economy' the default
19:09:43 <planetmaker> where selection allows to choose any economy in every climate
19:10:03 <planetmaker> though with basic default... can be argued most people won't find complete then
19:11:59 <andythenorth> action 14 has no way to figure out what climate is in use
19:12:07 <andythenorth> because it’s not chosen yet when setting newgrf params
19:12:13 <andythenorth> and action 14 is static anyway :)
19:12:30 <Alberth> just make an option "basic economy"
19:12:30 <planetmaker> no. But there could be 'default' for economy selection. And that would turn out one or the other economy
19:12:46 <andythenorth> so ‘basic - auto’
19:13:09 <Alberth> "basic" means different things when you change climate
19:13:17 <Alberth> just like the original baseset
19:13:35 <Alberth> gameplay between climates is really different
19:13:35 <andythenorth> I have no strong feelings either way
19:13:46 <planetmaker> yeah... auto economy basically
19:14:13 <Alberth> maybe "basic climate dependent econommy" ?
19:14:29 <andythenorth> I wonder if it’s just one line of python per industry
19:14:49 <Alberth> ie give a hint it might change when you dare touching the climate selection :p
19:15:02 <andythenorth> I dunno, the whole parameter setting UI is unlovable
19:15:07 <andythenorth> but I don’t want to unpick that
19:15:10 <planetmaker> it wouldn't even be a change to any industry, I think, andythenorth
19:15:16 <planetmaker> just in the parameter treatment
19:15:32 <andythenorth> if there’s a layer of indirection
19:15:41 <andythenorth> MIght Just Work tm
19:16:06 <Alberth> oh, and as pm says, basic as default would be lovely
19:16:45 <andythenorth> hitting people with Full FIRS is stupid
19:16:54 <andythenorth> there are some other changes I wanted to do in FIRS
19:16:56 <andythenorth> new sprites and such
19:17:01 <andythenorth> but developing on FIRS is slow
19:17:11 <andythenorth> and I have Squid, Road Hog, Termite, Iron Horse....
19:17:15 <andythenorth> snow for CHIPS o_O
19:17:19 <frosch123> hmm, i wanted to add the economy parameters...
19:17:40 <andythenorth> I have been considering adding just different flavours of supplies
19:17:58 <andythenorth> FIRS has tried to find ‘ultimate’ supplies behaviour, but I don’t think there is one
19:18:08 <andythenorth> and if there was, it would get boring
19:18:18 <Alberth> it makes it useful to use all supplies
19:18:19 <andythenorth> so maybe 2 or 3 different behaviours
19:18:48 <andythenorth> I would like primary production to use the industry production multiplier var
19:18:55 <Alberth> multiply production by 2 if you deliver a type of supplies :p
19:19:20 <andythenorth> frosch123: you have some bee in your bonnet about smooth economy, I recall?
19:23:00 * andythenorth plays Alberth’s savegame
19:23:52 <andythenorth> the P&L window would be more useful if it grouped cost & income per transport type imo
19:24:02 <andythenorth> ‘not realistic’ :P
19:24:27 <andythenorth> scrap metal train makes a lot of profit, eh?
19:24:57 <andythenorth> you could narrow gauge at Hilwijk
19:25:03 <Alberth> moving the stuff up the hill is very expensive
19:25:04 <andythenorth> for that iron ore mine -> mill
19:25:28 <andythenorth> ha ha weight multiplier 8 :)
19:25:50 <andythenorth> I used to use 6 because NARS said so
19:25:54 <frosch123> andythenorth: you mean the built-in smooth economy?
19:26:14 <andythenorth> before I go doing anything with FIRS production monthly change
19:26:17 <Alberth> oh, I started anew with an up-to-date road-hog, which also gives nice trams
19:26:27 <andythenorth> yeah trams galore
19:27:03 <frosch123> it randomises the production of every industry every month, which is bad for multiple reasons
19:27:21 <frosch123> for once there are way too many news items
19:27:45 <frosch123> seconds: the production changes so often, that any randomisation averages out
19:28:09 <andythenorth> it’s a user choice though?
19:28:17 <frosch123> it would be way easier and more transparent to the player, if the production would just lineary increase, instead of randomness which is not really random
19:28:19 <andythenorth> or I could just have FIRS listen to random prod change?
19:28:47 <andythenorth> I want a variant where industry production is ‘prod multipler + supplies boost'
19:29:00 <andythenorth> which current code blocks, but isn’t conceptually hard at all
19:29:08 <frosch123> i think many industry sets try to make random changes, which only make things complicated to balance, but do not actually achieve any gameplay relevance
19:29:29 <andythenorth> I would rather delegate to ottd, except for boost behaviour
19:29:35 <frosch123> so, either production should change via fixed rules, without any randomness
19:29:53 <frosch123> or randomness should be rare, so it is actually random: i.e. only few industries, but big impact
19:30:05 * andythenorth forms ideas for FIRS 1.4.x
19:30:09 <andythenorth> or maybe FIRS 2.x
19:30:22 <andythenorth> I could use some help tbh :P
19:30:30 <frosch123> other than that, i don't like changing production over time
19:30:31 <andythenorth> I have bitten off more than I can chew on newgrfs again
19:30:46 <andythenorth> maybe it’s time for a 2.x branch
19:31:04 <frosch123> while i have no idea how current yeti works, i think i gave V the initial code for the type of behaviour i currently like
19:31:10 <Alberth> would be useful if GS can set a policy for industry production changes, probably
19:31:26 <frosch123> basically making output depend on amount supplied, but in a sub-linear way
19:31:46 <frosch123> no randomness at all
19:31:56 <andythenorth> so FIRS is linear, but too much so
19:31:57 <Alberth> yeah, I liked the non-instant delivery of output too
19:32:05 <frosch123> giving the player the freedom to deliver as much as they want
19:32:20 <frosch123> but at the same time offering some benefit to deliver multiple industries
19:34:07 <andythenorth> - more supply behaviour / production options
19:34:17 <andythenorth> - change which economy is default
19:34:22 <andythenorth> - automatic ‘basic’ economies
19:34:54 <andythenorth> - there’s some request about allowing primary industry closure or such
19:35:14 <andythenorth> I am -1 on parameters as first design choice for everything
19:35:26 <andythenorth> but +1 on offering options that turn out to be reasonable
19:35:44 <frosch123> i don't see any gameplay reason for closing industries :)
19:36:12 <frosch123> it's hard to balance on huge maps: you may not close unserviced industries or vast areas will be deserted
19:36:21 <frosch123> and players complain if you close serviced ones
19:36:26 <frosch123> so, you can never close them :p
19:37:30 <andythenorth> certainly there’s no newgrf way to do it
19:37:39 <frosch123> hmm, idea: close processing industries which accept multiple cargos, if they are only delivered one cargo type over 5 years
19:37:39 <andythenorth> only to listen to what ottd wants
19:37:53 <frosch123> so, if players service industries, they must service all input cargos
19:38:08 <andythenorth> often a needed source is a long way away
19:38:12 <frosch123> it's somewhat more harsh than the production bonus for delivering multiple types :p
19:38:17 <andythenorth> it would be hurt-me-plenty mode
19:38:44 <frosch123> same could be done for primary ones
19:38:57 <frosch123> they start with a stockpile of supplies for 5 years
19:39:15 <frosch123> supplies only deplete if the industry is actually serviced
19:39:27 <andythenorth> is that what ECS does?
19:39:33 <frosch123> it's somewhat like the old pbi mine depletion, but with an option for the player to elongate it infinitely
19:39:58 <andythenorth> currently supplies can be too volatile
19:40:04 <frosch123> andythenorth: no, in PBI you can do nothing, except disable the feature
19:40:28 <frosch123> and in ECS industries even close when the towns grow, since raw industrie are not allowed inside cities or so
19:41:50 <frosch123> andythenorth: well, closure is tricky for sure, esp. if you leave the game unobserved, e.g on a public server
19:42:12 <frosch123> so, maybe the reduction of output is more fair :)
19:42:13 <andythenorth> I never use it, never want it
19:42:20 <andythenorth> I find the closure concept tedious
19:42:27 <andythenorth> maybe bad experiences in 1995 :P
19:42:34 <Alberth> ECS mines have an estimated remaining amount to deliver
19:42:42 <andythenorth> always, just building a huge rail line, then the industry closes
19:42:43 <frosch123> still, i kind of like that primary industries would start with high production, and lower production over time unless they get supplies
19:42:50 <frosch123> that gives a quicker game start
19:42:56 <Alberth> but they tend to find new resources for some time after that
19:43:07 <andythenorth> I would rather see industry initial production spread over higher range
19:43:08 <frosch123> you can transport lots in the beginning without worrying about supplies
19:43:13 <frosch123> but still have to do them in the long run
19:43:23 <planetmaker> interesting concept
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19:43:35 <Alberth> sounds like non-manual industries :p
19:43:48 <andythenorth> you all have commit rights :)
19:44:15 <andythenorth> 2.x-dev branch :P
19:44:23 <andythenorth> if it’s rubbish we won’t cherry-pick the commits in
19:44:53 <frosch123> well, you can always make a setting to select from 123 different economy mechanics :p
19:45:06 <frosch123> they don't need to be good in that case :p
19:45:19 <andythenorth> yes, I am a fan of that approach
19:45:25 <andythenorth> none of them good
19:46:26 <andythenorth> I never play Full FIRS anymore
19:46:34 <andythenorth> the other economies all have an easy source of supplies (ports)
19:46:41 <andythenorth> which makes the game *much* more fun
19:46:46 <andythenorth> much less yak-shaving
19:48:25 <planetmaker> yes... the full economy is too convoluted for me to play it. I don't have the patience (anymore) :P
19:50:03 <andythenorth> I could remove it….pikka style
19:52:34 <planetmaker> there's not much point in removing it, I think. It's there and people enjoy it
19:53:18 <V453000> just make something better andy and eventually make it default :P
19:53:20 <V453000> much better than removing
19:54:50 <V453000> frosch123: I believe the industry mechanism of YETI is still quite similar ... it was always linear though :P
19:55:17 <V453000> but, YETI motivates the player to connect EVERY kind of cargo so much, that the non-linear approach isnt really necessary
19:55:48 <V453000> the 9 primaries alone are quite a lot already, considering the worker yards connected to them, not to mention secondaries :)
19:56:35 <V453000> interesting idea about having a starting-boost
19:59:09 <Alberth> hmm, electrified tram tracks with steam trams :p
19:59:12 <frosch123> V453000: sub-linear would give you more production when using multiple secondary (of same type)
19:59:23 <frosch123> instead of one secondary per type
19:59:25 <andythenorth> remove all the things
19:59:27 <V453000> I know frosch123, still considering it
19:59:42 <V453000> andythenorth: if you want to make a good working industry set, start with a scheme
19:59:59 <andythenorth> I have never made one before
20:00:01 <andythenorth> it’s good advice
20:00:07 <frosch123> [20:56] <V453000> interesting idea about having a starting-boost <- i thought it was too realistic :p
20:00:22 <frosch123> catching transport economy with cheap starter conditions
20:00:25 <V453000> well the wtf is that in the start you have the weakest engines XD
20:00:26 <frosch123> and then turn the screw
20:01:04 <frosch123> V453000: oh, with "start" i meant the "start of industry being serviced", not "start of game"
20:01:17 <V453000> andythenorth: the scheme says everything systematic, precise production numbers etc can be done later, but scheme must go first as changing that later is hell - as you can see with FIRS now
20:01:20 <frosch123> so, also later in the game you would get a boost for servicing a new industries
20:02:25 <andythenorth> V453000: you think FIRS didn’t have a scheme originally?
20:02:51 <V453000> I will be glad to help you if you need advices with the scheme :D :P
20:02:55 <andythenorth> reminds me of some devs I’ve worked with
20:02:58 <V453000> got to go, lady demands sleeping
20:03:01 <andythenorth> ‘first you shouldn’t start from here'
20:03:43 * andythenorth waits for V453000 to be married with kid
20:04:02 <frosch123> oh, yesterday i speed-up some code by a co-worker by factor 5
20:04:47 <frosch123> i replaced about ten std::map::operator[] with storing a reference of the first []
20:04:50 <Wolf01> pfft I sped up the installation of our cms from 6 hours to a bunch of minutes
20:05:30 <frosch123> it's one of those cases, where a c programmer would never do such a stupid thing, but a bad c++ programmer does not notice :)
20:08:09 <Wolf01> uhm, before I forget it again, home checkout time
20:09:02 <frosch123> hmm, 4:25 to utrecht. that's not too bad
20:09:42 <planetmaker> what's in utrecht... the tt2015 one?
20:10:10 <frosch123> back from rotterdam is 5:17 at least
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20:10:34 <frosch123> that would rather be a return on monday
20:10:34 <planetmaker> utrecht is not bad from here either. about the same time as you quoted
20:14:24 <Wolf01> Added: 6374 Deleted: 2 Updated: 105
20:15:03 <andythenorth> sometimes I get a Deleted high score
20:15:55 <Wolf01> I keep a checkout of the entire repository because I don't trust much the sysadmin :P
20:16:25 <frosch123> then you should do a hg or git bridge, so you also keep the history :)
20:16:38 * andythenorth trusts to a hosted repo
20:16:42 <andythenorth> and crosses fingers
20:17:02 <Wolf01> about 6370 of those additions are the tags of the cms
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20:24:02 <frosch123> i thought the cli is the worst part of git
20:26:43 * andythenorth got it wrong again
20:27:58 <Wolf01> I might need grunt and/or gulp too
20:28:25 <planetmaker> use what you want, andythenorth. But I will not support git ;)
20:28:52 <planetmaker> if you want to implement devzone support for it, though, be my guest
20:29:17 <andythenorth> just twice a day I’ll get it wrong
20:29:26 <andythenorth> it’s not like anything bad happens
20:29:30 <andythenorth> just makes me feel stupid
20:29:39 <Wolf01> it works, it works! I can see the home page
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20:32:25 <Wolf01> I think I'll switch to postgresql even at home, mysql is meh
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20:49:26 <andythenorth> 6/8 trams need different offset to 6/8 trucks, in two angles
21:05:06 <jjavaholic> what is the key to efficient road vehicle production?
21:05:48 <Alberth> as in ECS car factory production?
21:06:49 <Alberth> or rather what does "road vaehicle production" mean?
21:08:28 <Alberth> are yoy talking about a cargo in some industry newgrf, or road vehicles transporting stuff over the road?
21:09:05 <jjavaholic> slick vehicles transporting stuff over road
21:09:50 <jjavaholic> I laid oneway road thinking that would increase output and avoid break down stoppages
21:09:51 <Alberth> not much different from trains, have a vehicle loading all the time
21:11:07 <Alberth> if you use RVs from a newgrf, no, as those are articulated, and articulated RVs cannot take over
21:11:43 <Alberth> better make more roads in parallel, so traffic gets distributed
21:12:20 <jjavaholic> I don't use any custom newgrfs
21:12:36 <jjavaholic> I'm not sure the vehicles are distributing at all
21:12:48 <jjavaholic> they all seem to be going down same road
21:12:55 <Alberth> at the stations, drive-through stations have better performance I think
21:13:35 <Alberth> give vehicles choice of several lanes that are all about equally far away
21:14:09 <jjavaholic> is there a key to doing that?
21:15:10 <Alberth> I tend to build a drive-through station of 3 tiles orthogonal on the incoming stream, which gets in the middle, so vehicles have to drive left or right for 1 tile, and turn to enter the station
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21:15:46 <Alberth> if you make one lane closer than others, the RVs all go to that one lane
21:15:47 <jjavaholic> I don't understand what you mean by that
21:15:59 <jjavaholic> do you have a capture online of what this looks like
21:18:04 <Alberth> I was working on that :)
21:19:19 <Alberth> the distance to all entries must be mostly equal, so RVs will pick the lane with the fewest other vehicles
21:20:19 <Alberth> obviously, you can build bigger stations with parallel lanes, based on that principle.
21:20:28 <Alberth> never did that though
21:22:39 <jjavaholic> I was already starting that
21:23:06 <jjavaholic> but if what you say is true than I'll need to straighten path to equalise them first
21:26:11 <Alberth> just 2 parallel roads with some junctions here and there
21:26:40 <Alberth> I don't really plan layout, the junction positions are all just by accident
21:27:57 <Alberth> and even here, trams do take a detour at the top right to enter the station from the other side if the nearby side is full
21:28:24 <andythenorth> inwisible bridges
21:29:39 <Alberth> for some reason all bridges mostly just hide the vehicles
21:31:32 <Alberth> not to mention the electric wires above the tracks which seem needed for steam trams :p
21:34:01 *** luaduck is now known as luaduck_zzz
21:37:29 <jjavaholic> equal road 90 degree corners
21:37:37 <jjavaholic> how does that work?
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22:20:41 <andythenorth> frosch123: I am reading SV code, is the core really just the 538 lines in main.nut ? Or do I miss something significant?
22:20:55 * andythenorth is surprised at brevity
22:25:37 <Eddi|zuHause> what do you mean? that's like 50 hours of development time
22:26:10 <Eddi|zuHause> CETS is maybe 1000 lines
22:26:56 <Eddi|zuHause> plus the tracking table
22:28:09 <andythenorth> for some reason I expected more boilerplate
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22:33:39 <yaiu> why are downloadable heightmaps always massive
22:34:42 <Eddi|zuHause> you can easily downscale heightmaps, but upscaling is tricky
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