IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-11-28
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09:51:00 <ee> Hello , I think i miss something about Feeder service, I send a train from a farm to a food processing plant, and I want the same train to carry the produced food to the first station to transfer to a truck. I train to transfer all carried food and pickup just wheat and livestock.
09:53:53 <ee> when i enable transfer, the train "Transfers and Leaves Empty" , i have to choose one of the loading options, but in this case the train picks up the carried food again .
09:54:03 <argoneus> ee: don't you need different wagons?
09:54:07 <Pikkaphone> you'd probably need to be using cargodist for that to work. And/or station refittable wagons.
09:55:39 <Pikkaphone> cargodist would make the transfers happen "magically", without transfer orders. Alternatively, station refitting the food vans would prevent the food being picked back up.
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09:57:37 <ee> Pikkaphone: thanks , how can i do the second option ?
09:58:34 <argoneus> ee: you can give a train refit orders
09:59:28 <Pikkaphone> some newgrfs allow refitting in stations too
09:59:46 <ee> refit option is disable in dipot .
09:59:48 <Pikkaphone> the default vehicles don't allow refitting at all
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10:00:18 <ee> you mean i have to use NewGRF ?
10:00:21 <Pikkaphone> so it would only work with a train grf. cargodist might be the better option. :)
10:01:46 <V453000> or just build two separate stations ;)
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10:28:29 <argoneus> does Ruby have anything over Python?
10:29:30 <Alberth> sanity, the last time I looked
10:30:15 <Alberth> oh, I mean Python has sanity
10:30:54 <Alberth> Ruby is more exposing low level features, that you use is weird combination to get something done
10:31:09 <argoneus> I thought ruby was more high level
10:31:22 <Alberth> Python is more user oriented in providing primitves you need
10:32:10 <Alberth> on the other hand, in Python you also don't get primitives you should not use :)
10:33:41 <Alberth> eg inline code blocks, like lambdas have been deprecated in Python
10:34:44 <argoneus> it still has things like list comprehension
10:35:10 <argoneus> mylist = [x*x for x in intlist]
10:35:13 <Alberth> sure, but lamdba x: x*x is not recommended to use
10:35:16 <argoneus> that is an inline code block
10:35:31 <argoneus> there are times where it's useful
10:36:02 <Alberth> yeah, but also quite limited, and you can still have function objects with a nortmal def
10:36:37 <Alberth> def f(x): return x* x use f instead of the lambda thing
10:37:07 <Eddi|zuHause> why is that dangerous?
10:37:47 <Alberth> I don't know what Ruby does with unicode support, Python 3 handles that very nicely now
10:38:50 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: it's not dangerous, but lambda is an edge case of creating an anonymous function, while a proper function takes just one line extra
10:39:06 <Alberth> and a proper function can do a lot more than lambda
10:40:11 <Eddi|zuHause> python 2 is a bit awkward with unicode
10:40:48 <Eddi|zuHause> have to prepend "u" to all strings in your program
10:40:52 <Alberth> yeah, I'd recommend Python 3 if you want to do unicode stuff
10:41:27 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: lack of clean separation between text and bytes is a bigger problem imho
10:42:28 <argoneus> you can do b'bla' and it's bytes
10:42:58 <Alberth> argoneus: sure, but bytes and text are different things, and that's what Python3 does for you
10:43:45 <Alberth> ie bytes are sequences of 8-bit values, text is a sequence of code points
10:45:38 <Alberth> and Python 3 won't let you read bytes, and treat it as code points without conversion. Python 2 allowed that which works in the ASCII domain, and horribly fails when you step outside that
10:49:01 <blathijs> Alberth: Do you have any reference for not recommending lambdas? That's the first time I hear that?
10:49:01 <Jinassi> what about skatcless python, since topic is about python, is there a benefit over 2 or 3?
10:50:27 <Alberth> Jinassi I don't know stackless python, but if it follows the same versions as cpython, the big advantage is dead vs no-dead, wouldn't it?
10:58:03 <ee> why there is no newer version of cargodist ?
10:58:15 <argoneus> cargodist is part of the game
10:58:21 <argoneus> it was integrated with 1.4
10:58:22 <Eddi|zuHause> ee: cargodist is in the release version now
10:58:37 <argoneus> you need to turn it on in advanced settings
10:58:38 <Xaroth|Work> < argoneus> it still has things like list comprehension << list/dict comprehension != inlines
10:58:49 <argoneus> Xaroth|Work: it is a function
10:59:03 <Xaroth|Work> it's a special use case
10:59:10 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: but this is only about the special case of map/filter, not lambda in general
10:59:13 <argoneus> ee: just download the game and you're good
10:59:35 <argoneus> ee: you need to enable it in advanced settings, though
10:59:59 <argoneus> Xaroth|Work: a generator is arguably a function
11:00:20 <argoneus> or a procedure rather
11:00:36 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: Please read the section "Why drop lambda?" in the 2nd link
11:01:48 <ee> argoneus: this game is amazing ! I prefer this game to Simcity4 and Simcity 4 to Simcity 2013 !
11:02:15 <Alberth> argoneus: a generator is an object with internal state, you can iterate over it
11:03:02 <Xaroth|Work> argoneus: a lambda in python is nothing more than a nested function, guido has explained that dozens of times
11:03:12 <Xaroth|Work> but the downside is that it promotes bad behavior
11:03:12 <Alberth> 'yield' does a very different thing than 'return'
11:03:18 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: sure, but i feel the argument is rather weak
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11:10:02 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I can see the point of not having a 2nd form of function objects, for cases like x+1 or x*x, just because CS invented lambda calculation as one form of computing. In particular for people doing anything else than CS. Function objects are confusing enough
11:10:10 <ee> Sorry, How can i enable Cargodist ?
11:10:16 <Alberth> but you're free to disagree :)
11:11:04 <Alberth> ee: Click settings, type "cargodist" in the settings window, I think
11:11:26 <Eddi|zuHause> i can agree that a lot of people are struggling with the concepts of functional languages
11:11:28 <Alberth> that should give you 3 or so settings you can change
11:11:50 <argoneus> note that "manual" equals "disabled"
11:11:55 <argoneus> you want either symmetrical or asymmetrical
11:11:55 <ee> what's the difference between symmetrical and asymmetrical ?
11:11:57 <Eddi|zuHause> but i disagree with the conclusion of "avoid this"
11:12:15 <Alberth> function objects are not often needed in an OO language
11:12:24 <argoneus> ee: I'm not exactly sure
11:12:27 <argoneus> I think that if you have two cities
11:12:31 <argoneus> and you set it to asymmetrical
11:12:36 <argoneus> more people want to go from A to B than from B to A
11:12:43 <argoneus> so you transport more in one direction
11:12:48 <Alberth> ee: symmetrical means you want to have about the same amount of cargo in both directions
11:12:50 <argoneus> but this is just my interpretation and probably wrong
11:13:11 <Alberth> ee: it works, if supplies are about the same at both ends
11:13:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i use function parameters in my code generator, which is mostly non-
11:13:58 <Eddi|zuHause> only the expression parsing is OO
11:14:27 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: that sounds like a good use of function objects
11:14:29 <ee> Alberth: what if there are several cities and several cargo trains , and amount of cargo differs between them ?
11:15:05 <ee> I mean there are a lot of cities , how should i choose ?
11:15:36 <argoneus> what you usually want to do instead of overthinking
11:15:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: basically i chain a bunch of "apply this processing step onto all entries in the table"
11:15:36 <Alberth> ee: if you don't care about having equal amount of cargo, play with asymmetrical
11:15:40 <argoneus> is just make lines you like
11:15:46 <argoneus> and turn on cargo lines
11:15:50 <argoneus> and if a line needs more trains, make more
11:15:56 <argoneus> no need to overthink it
11:16:11 <argoneus> unless you are playing with FIRS and need to account for quadruple bonuses
11:16:14 <argoneus> which is a pain in the ass
11:16:17 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: doesn't sounds like "lambda would be enough :)
11:16:29 <Eddi|zuHause> no, those are usually real functions
11:16:52 <ee> argoneus Alberth thank you ! i am going to choose asymmetrical !
11:16:56 <Alberth> I think BDFL isn't against function objects, just the lambda
11:17:02 <Eddi|zuHause> lambdas i occasionally use as comparison method for sort()
11:17:05 <argoneus> assymetrical is realisti
11:17:16 <argoneus> cargodist mostly makes sense only for passengers
11:17:25 <argoneus> because cargo is often just A-B
11:17:33 <Jinassi> ee: for some realtime examples, perhaps it would be best to join some multiplayer games and observe other players. If you want I can give you a quick crash course on any reddit servers
11:17:34 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: that's probably one of the common uses
11:18:49 <ee> Jinassi: what should i do .
11:18:52 <argoneus> ee: are you using any newgrfs?
11:18:57 <Eddi|zuHause> one place i regularly use lambda is the __repr__ and __str__ methods of classes, where it's just a bit shorter to write
11:18:58 <argoneus> or just standard game
11:19:09 <ee> argoneus: i am using standard game
11:19:27 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: no str.format ?
11:19:36 <argoneus> ee: do you understand how cargodist works?
11:19:38 <argoneus> like, the idea of it?
11:20:02 <argoneus> it really makes sense mostly for passengers
11:20:02 <ee> argoneus: no , just some youtube videos .
11:20:02 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i don't think i used that yet
11:20:15 <argoneus> it tries to simulate real world needs
11:20:28 <argoneus> like, imagine you have a train line between 3 cities with a single train, ok?
11:20:30 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i usually use the % operator
11:21:01 <argoneus> without cargodist, the train goes to city A, loads people, goes to city B, unloads them, picks up new ones, then goes to C, etc, right?
11:21:26 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: .format is a bit cleaner with tuple arguments, "bla {}".format(t) vs "bla %s" % (t,)
11:21:41 <argoneus> ee: well, cargodist makes passengers more sentient
11:21:48 <argoneus> there will be some passengers in A
11:21:51 <argoneus> that will essentially be like
11:21:58 <Alberth> and you can have names arguments, I think
11:22:03 <argoneus> so the train loads all these people, goes to B
11:22:11 <argoneus> and only unloads like half of them or so, because not everyone wants to go to B, ofc
11:22:16 <argoneus> and then the rest goes to C
11:22:24 <argoneus> and you get money for transferring them A-C
11:22:31 <argoneus> it's like if you take a bus to school or such
11:22:34 <argoneus> you know where you want to go
11:22:38 <argoneus> you don't just leave halfway through
11:22:42 <blathijs> Alberth: Thanks for the link - good arguments against lambda :-)
11:22:48 <argoneus> and as a side effect
11:22:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: yes, but it's not something i bothered learning, let alone changing in old programs
11:22:53 <argoneus> it automatically transfers too
11:23:23 <ee> argoneus: thanks , ill ask questions if i got in trouble ;)
11:23:30 <argoneus> it basically makes cargo (mostly people) not stupid
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11:25:25 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: changing is not recommended, I changed it in NML, it's a lot of tedious work :)
11:26:24 <Alberth> and I failed in one case, a "%" function for the user
11:26:37 <Eddi|zuHause> there was a case in another program where i insert data into a printing form, and the % operator got a bit too confusing for my liking
11:27:28 <Alberth> I typically switch to string replacement in such a case
11:27:35 <Xaroth|Work> %s is not deprecated though, it's just that "{}".format is preferred
11:30:18 <V453000> so =D time has come ... how do I do CC in 32bpp?
11:32:43 <V453000> but how are they created?
11:32:48 <V453000> render stuff, put it to greyscale?
11:32:53 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: basically you make a second sprite of the same size with just the parts that should be recoloured
11:33:11 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: must be 8bpp, using the right palette entries
11:33:33 <Eddi|zuHause> so the CC-blue or 2nd-CC-green
11:33:51 <V453000> time to fiddle XD thanks
11:34:03 <Eddi|zuHause> with a bit of work you can probably create those from a greyscale
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11:35:08 <V453000> or some palette cut and colour replacement rather
11:35:19 <V453000> I will try that as the first thing
11:36:36 <V453000> ..... the alpha should be the colour 00, right? the alpha blue
11:38:13 <V453000> thank you very much :)
11:41:22 <Alberth> /me calls the yeti painters
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12:27:42 <V453000> I think I almost got it Eddi :D
12:27:51 <V453000> it is quite a holy shit but hm :)
12:28:49 <V453000> I dont even want to see how it is going to look XD
12:29:54 <Alberth> just declare it a bad feature, obviously, one transport company is enough :)
12:30:35 <V453000> I like to recolour shit myself though
12:31:17 <Alberth> that would count as a problem indeed :)
12:31:26 <V453000> ......... the mask can only be one, for BOTH CC1 and CC2, right?
12:31:30 <V453000> not one for CC1 and one for CC2
12:33:48 <planetmaker> V453000, you have one mask sprite which uses the normal 8bpp DOS palette
12:33:57 <planetmaker> thus you can use all CC1 and CC2 colours
12:34:28 <planetmaker> as well as the water cycle or the fire cycle etc
12:34:34 <planetmaker> or also other colours
12:34:35 <Eddi|zuHause> it should be easy to combine them
12:34:36 <V453000> so I cant have TWO mask sprites for one sprite?
12:34:47 <V453000> alright, that is all I needed to know :)
12:34:55 <planetmaker> two masks would be kinda stupid
12:38:07 <argoneus> is the train smoke a sprite?
12:38:40 <Eddi|zuHause> everything is a sprite
12:39:50 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it's really not stupid if you come from the generating perspective
12:40:06 <planetmaker> windows aren't a sprite, usually
12:40:27 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, it makes some sense. But only if you solve the problem of how they stack
12:40:42 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: steam train smoke is like 6 sprites
12:40:45 <V453000> I will handle it, just need to tweak the infrastructure a tiny bit :)
12:41:16 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: they obviously stack in the order they appear in the code (or reverse)
12:41:20 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, thus stacking needs a sort order for the overlays and how to solve competing information
12:41:35 <planetmaker> yeah. or whatever sort order is defined etc. Going to be a mess
12:41:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think it's messy at all
12:42:18 <Eddi|zuHause> you just stack them on top of each other, and latest non-transparent one wins
12:43:15 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, so, and if you recolour it first to green, then to water cycle and last to CC1?
12:43:19 <Eddi|zuHause> that's how sprites generally work
12:43:50 <planetmaker> do you change the colour effect in that order or just apply the last effect?
12:43:59 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: what? this is about the recolour masks, not the recolour maps
12:44:00 <planetmaker> it would make a difference
12:44:20 <planetmaker> masks and maps are the same really
12:44:27 <Eddi|zuHause> not in this context
12:44:39 <planetmaker> the recolour mask defines the mapping (and the mask itself at the same time)
12:44:50 <Eddi|zuHause> the mask defines which parts of the sprite are recoloured, the map defines which colour is remapped to what
12:44:58 * V453000 leaves the discussion XD
12:45:09 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, and it's intrinsically linked
12:45:14 <Eddi|zuHause> you're mixing two totally separate contexts
12:45:34 <Eddi|zuHause> there is no link at all
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12:59:29 <supermop> how do i type a copywrite C on windows...
12:59:46 <supermop> cant be bothered to find and insert symbol in PS
13:01:04 <Pikka> although if you can't be bothered I don't see why anyone else should be
13:01:13 <Eddi|zuHause> get a useful keymap
13:02:23 <supermop> im going to copy one in from illustrator
13:02:40 <supermop> shouldnt be using photshop anyway
13:03:07 <Eddi|zuHause> just use the damn charmap, dude
13:06:03 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: only if you follow my first point :p
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13:10:31 <Eddi|zuHause> "A study in 24 countries tried to find out how well-known Edward Snowden is: Germany 94%, USA 76%, UK: 72%, France 62%, Italy 54%, Kenia 14%"
13:12:30 <Eddi|zuHause> is that spelled differently?
13:12:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i'll probably forget that by the next time it comes up :p
13:20:33 <V453000> the mask needs to be mentioned in the template :D
13:20:46 <V453000> time to create a new template G_G
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13:33:07 <V453000> it looks terrible so far but it works
13:34:18 <Jinassi> anatomy checks out lol
13:35:02 <maxrules> can i have a dildo train
13:35:33 <V453000> also, openttd WRECKS this texture by its auto-x1-conversion
13:36:14 <V453000> might consider adding manual x1 32bpp sprites
13:37:05 <Jinassi> V453000: image for the dront and the back of the wago is all red?
13:37:28 * Jinassi goes to clean the kb, again
13:37:45 <V453000> you can choose the blood colour of your slugs
13:39:56 <V453000> if you come to think about it, openttd is a really violent game
13:40:19 <V453000> makes poor animals not bend, but break into pieces and align to the monstrosity tracks
13:40:50 <Jinassi> not counting the mass murdering of passengers
13:41:11 <planetmaker> V453000, x1 sprites are a good idea, yes. You see with pota-ghat what happens if you don't :)
13:42:46 <planetmaker> if yu have 4x and 1x, then 2x might not be needed though
13:43:33 <V453000> x2 looks good already
13:43:54 <V453000> with the ton of varying colours, the chosen ones to x1 just arent nice XD
13:45:22 <V453000> funnily enough the shape of the slug is actually VERY similar to the pixel-art drawn one XD
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14:00:25 <planetmaker> lol, that slug really is under power. Warning: High voltage. Do not touch. Danger of death
14:03:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm going to develop an irrational fear of slugs
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14:49:28 <V453000> still fiddling with that
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14:55:13 <V453000> the masks are a bit annoying since I have to render three times but meh :)
14:58:42 <planetmaker> NutZ II: The slug clone wars
15:01:01 <V453000> the worst is yet to com
15:01:30 <Eddi|zuHause> fucking games... why won't they ever just work??
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18:39:52 <andythenorth> did I miss anything?
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18:42:26 <Alberth> V posted a few more nice pictures :)
18:44:03 <V453000> your pants will be browned
18:44:43 <V453000> compatible wagons in progrez
18:45:34 <Jinassi> will a depot look like a slugs house?
18:46:10 <Jinassi> NUTS is really going to be nuts
18:46:49 <Jinassi> meant in a good way, looking forward to it
18:48:18 <Jinassi> imagine road vehicle sets slug-wise, sliming away on the roads
18:50:00 * andythenorth fetches the salt
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19:26:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Jinassi: you can probably do slime trails with the new vehicle effect callback
19:29:29 <Jinassi> that would be awesome, also having a busy roadline would atleast give it that slimy look, same could be done for heqs(road dmg fx)
19:34:49 <andythenorth> HEQS needs roadtypes to justify it
19:34:54 <andythenorth> I should remove HEQS
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19:50:04 <andythenorth> did anyone make a new GS yet? o_O
19:52:08 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe the cat did?
19:53:46 <andythenorth> ‘hide’ was a very nice buy menu feature
19:54:14 <andythenorth> maybe we could convert ‘expire’ to ‘auto-hide’ :P
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22:09:43 * andythenorth watches an incredibly boring train video
22:09:52 <andythenorth> but eh, they can be so boring
22:10:45 * andythenorth has to close all those YT windows
22:11:10 <Jinassi> watch a documentary about the jet train, really fascinating
22:12:31 <Wolf01> I usually lose my mind on documentaries of old things, such old mechanical calculators or early engines
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22:21:02 * andythenorth released some Road Hog
22:24:15 <Jinassi> another name for a fart?
22:25:42 <Bob9> welp! why can't i refit train cars to carry fruit?
22:26:16 <Bob9> it's gonna rotten if i have to deliver by trucks :(
22:26:39 <NGC3982> Are you playing locally or in multiplayer?
22:26:45 <NGC3982> And what NewGRF's are you using?
22:27:59 <Wolf01> which year are you playing, did you eat your vegetables?
22:29:10 <Wolf01> interesting video Jinassi
22:29:52 <andythenorth> Bob9: what train set?
22:31:53 <andythenorth> dunno, I thought that ‘ECS & FIRS’ set made original vehicles refit
22:32:21 <Bob9> i can refit to all other types of cargo i've tried
22:32:37 <NGC3982> There does not seem to be any relevant parameter either.
22:32:53 <NGC3982> Wait, you can refit a cart to any other cargo?
22:33:29 <NGC3982> You seem to have changed the Universal vehicles parameter.
22:33:35 <NGC3982> That might have something to do with it.
22:33:39 * NGC3982 tries it for himself.
22:33:59 <NGC3982> 1980's, temperate map?
22:34:39 <Bob9> i've fiddled around in advanced settings without really knowing what i was doing tbh
22:35:02 <NGC3982> We all have to learn somehow.
22:38:50 <Bob9> universal vehicles was off
22:41:02 <Bob9> just not on my saved game, is there anyway to fix that?
22:41:30 *** Flygon__ has joined #openttd
23:01:28 *** supermop has joined #openttd
23:59:47 *** KWKdesign has joined #openttd
continue to next day ⏵
