IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-09-10
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05:27:17 <andythenorth> pikka is phoning in
05:28:09 <Pikkaphone> the presentation is, yes
05:28:33 <Pikkaphone> now I have to make it look good for submission by Friday
05:28:44 <andythenorth> just use more radiosity
05:29:03 <andythenorth> how is BNE? I am speaking to it at 9am UK time
05:29:20 <andythenorth> any typhoons nearby?
05:29:35 <Pikkaphone> a bit cloudy, but alright. No typhoons that I've seen
05:29:44 <andythenorth> politicians being naughty?
05:29:48 <Pikkaphone> crocs behaving badly
05:30:09 <Pikkaphone> politicians worse than crocs
05:30:18 <andythenorth> pretty standard then
05:30:32 <andythenorth> all is well in the land belonging to the queen
05:31:14 <Pikkaphone> apparently Scottish independence is going to break our Constitution and then anarchy will reign
05:32:34 <Pikkaphone> so that's something to look forward to.
05:34:18 <andythenorth> that will be interesting
05:46:58 <Pikkaphone> any typhoons there, then?
05:47:30 <andythenorth> a eurofighter flew over my house a few months back
05:47:58 <Pikkaphone> was it one of ours?
05:56:14 <andythenorth> don’t know, it was going quite fast, couldn’t hear the accent
05:56:31 <andythenorth> it made a lot of noise, do Australians do that?
05:59:13 <andythenorth> Alberth has introduced a new bug to Iron Horse
05:59:21 <andythenorth> previously it was just ‘behaviour'
05:59:31 <andythenorth> now he has pointed out the problem, it’s definitely a bug
05:59:59 <Pikkaphone> a bug, what is it?
06:14:08 <Pikkaphone> not that combine cars aren't a bad feature
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09:32:57 <chuma> is there anyone from Ukraine ?
09:34:12 <chuma> what does it mean which?
09:35:32 <peter1138> i'm guess there is at least one person from ukraine
09:35:54 <Xaroth|Work> and at least one person not from ukraine
09:44:25 <Eddi|zuHause> aren't we all ukrainians?
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10:24:48 <Eddi|zuHause> "Microsoft wants to buy Mojang"
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16:33:48 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26809 trunk/src/music_gui.cpp (2014-09-10 16:33:42 UTC)
16:33:50 <DorpsGek> -Fix: do not dereference the -1 index of the file names array of music files. It definitely breaks on m68k, and might cause failures on other platforms as well
16:53:57 <FLHerne> Someone actually uses OTTD on m68k?
16:54:39 <Alberth> afaik, the debian build just crashed
16:55:21 <planetmaker> the beauty of having many test platforms :)
16:55:31 <Alberth> it's amazing how long such bugs linger in the code
16:56:06 <planetmaker> yeah. And also how they're actually found :)
16:56:38 <Rubidium> the real question is: how many weird "openttd does not start" bug reports does this fix?
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17:46:08 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26810 /trunk/src/lang (4 files) (2014-09-10 17:45:58 UTC)
17:46:09 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:46:10 <DorpsGek> dutch - 76 changes by habell
17:46:11 <DorpsGek> spanish - 6 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
17:46:12 <DorpsGek> swedish - 51 changes by spacejens
17:46:13 <DorpsGek> welsh - 26 changes by kazzie
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18:34:06 <andythenorth> Alberth: you made another bug :D
18:43:55 <andythenorth> dunno if I can fix this one
18:44:02 <andythenorth> it’s either BAD FEATURE
18:44:11 <andythenorth> or it is an ottd issue :P
18:44:46 <andythenorth> if I move the mail to first unit of articulated consist, the livery will be wrong (should be pax)
18:45:05 <andythenorth> imho ottd should do a better job of identifying the refittability
18:45:11 <andythenorth> or I should remove this vehicle
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19:05:46 <Alberth> yeah, it's very weird, you'd say ottd would understand what is refittable, as it says so itself
19:10:30 <andythenorth> probably just something added in a hurry, without finding an edge case?
19:10:49 <andythenorth> refittability is checked on the whole articulated vehicle, and the text is placed on the front vehicle?
19:11:06 * andythenorth has never looked at UI code
19:14:45 <b_jonas> if I use the convert rail type tool to upgrade a bridge or tunnel, do I have to pay the full price for digging the tunnel or building the bridge again, or do I only pay for the rails on it?
19:15:55 <andythenorth> also hi planetmaker
19:16:47 <planetmaker> hi andythenorth :)
19:18:02 <b_jonas> I'll try in about 15 in-game years when I get the first monorails.
19:18:46 <b_jonas> Though it might be irrelevant, because at that point I might not just want to upgrade the rails on bridges, but rebuild bridges to tubular ones. I think the convert tool can't automatically do that yet, right?
19:19:14 <b_jonas> and yes, shift key is very useful
19:19:34 <b_jonas> it's one of the good parts of the interface of ttd (there are some bad parts too)
19:19:57 * andythenorth is shocked to hear that
19:20:46 <planetmaker> interesting brick-land :)
19:25:26 <Alberth> I never use the shift key :p
19:26:31 <planetmaker> if you're not interested in money in OpenTTD you don't need it. Normally at least
19:26:44 <b_jonas> I use shift to cancel drag-drops, and sometimes use it to check prices of expensive items
19:26:52 <planetmaker> it's very useful if you run danger to accidentially terraform a giant area. Just hold shift and let it go unharmed
19:26:55 <b_jonas> it can also validate some conditions
19:27:11 <b_jonas> like, test whether I could actually build a station
19:29:40 <andythenorth> I used it to learn not to build over farm fields at game start
19:32:04 <b_jonas> andythenorth: yeah, though right now I play on easy difficulty for the fun so I didn't have to worry about that
19:32:30 <b_jonas> (as in, low construction prices, starting in 1950, very high initial loan limit)
19:32:51 <b_jonas> this time I'm not trying to show I can make a profitable company early
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19:42:54 <b_jonas> oh great, SH '30' came out!
19:54:50 <Eddi|zuHause> that hasn't happened to me in like 10 years
19:56:17 <andythenorth> wtf is the sound effect on the Twinhills Passenger Tram? :o
19:57:39 <andythenorth> someone else try it in Road Hog, tell me I’m not insane?
19:59:15 <andythenorth> it sounds like laughing
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20:05:08 <Alberth> did you change smoke on 2-4-0 Chaplin since iron horse RC 4 ?
20:05:29 <Alberth> either the smoke comes out at the wrong end, or the engine is backwards :p
20:09:03 <Alberth> interestingly my other trains drive in the right direction :p
20:11:04 <frosch123> already complained about that :p andy said it is intentional :p
20:12:08 <andythenorth> I could change it
20:12:18 <andythenorth> I thought players liked all this backwards stuff
20:12:30 <andythenorth> although the smoke is a problem :P
20:12:58 <andythenorth> backwards sounds like a BAD FEATURE
20:13:03 <frosch123> it just needs a text in the purchase list: may drive backwards if in good mood
20:13:30 <andythenorth> well purchase text is broken in Iron Horse :P
20:13:39 <andythenorth> it’s the only bit of partial compile I couldn’t make work
20:13:42 <andythenorth> so I’m ignoring it
20:13:53 <andythenorth> partial compile is so much faster that it’s worth it
20:13:55 <Alberth> backward engine is fine, imho
20:14:10 <andythenorth> I would need to move the smoke though
20:14:23 <Alberth> that would be nice indeed
20:14:40 <andythenorth> means I have to read random bits myself I think
20:14:45 <andythenorth> not just use a random switch?
20:15:06 <andythenorth> smoke would need same random result reliably as vehicle
20:15:19 <andythenorth> I could just alternate on even / odd days :P
20:15:23 <User> hello, were does openttd save its config?
20:15:32 <andythenorth> tempted to remove it
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20:15:54 <Eddi|zuHause> random switches can do that
20:16:00 <andythenorth> frosch123: did you think it was actually broken?
20:16:08 <Eddi|zuHause> do the same random decision in different places
20:16:17 <Alberth> Guest360: it is explained in the readme file afaik
20:16:21 <Eddi|zuHause> just make sure you give the same ratios
20:16:24 <andythenorth> does anyone want to patch it? :P
20:16:31 <frosch123> andythenorth: i built only one engine, so i just thought it was a bug :p
20:16:35 * andythenorth needs to go and try and find £250k
20:16:44 <andythenorth> smoke might have to wait
20:16:49 <andythenorth> patches are welcome
20:17:10 <Eddi|zuHause> or you don't randomize at all, and just let the player flip it by ctrl+click
20:17:29 <andythenorth> not possible, three-part vehicles
20:17:34 <andythenorth> sacrificed ctrl-click
20:17:37 <Alberth> randomize is much more fun :)
20:18:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i wondered for CETS if it was possible to deterministically flip every second vehicle
20:18:35 <Eddi|zuHause> like on purchase read the number of vehicles
20:19:07 <andythenorth> interesting idea
20:19:15 <andythenorth> sounds like an easy patch if not done :P
20:20:18 <b_jonas> argh I've built this same bridge like seven times because I couldn't determine how long it has to be for the junction to work well
20:20:43 <andythenorth> there are some vars that could be abused
20:21:06 <b_jonas> at least I hope the junction will work correctly
20:21:21 * andythenorth wonders about trying xeno’s paradox with the target xxyy var
20:21:24 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: but is this valid during the articulated callback?
20:21:29 <andythenorth> closer you get, slower the vehicle...
20:21:44 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: why that?
20:22:17 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: because i need to decide at that point whether the steering wagon of the ICE2 is in front or at the back
20:22:38 <frosch123> does that affect vehicle length or something important?
20:22:42 <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise i get a lot of dynamic whatever
20:22:46 <frosch123> why does it inclufence the articulation?
20:22:54 <b_jonas> how smart is the route planner these days? does it check for vehicles past signals?
20:23:12 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. length is also affected
20:23:42 <Eddi|zuHause> and lots of other stuff which would otherwise be constant would have to be dynamified
20:24:07 <Eddi|zuHause> which it wouldn't need if i could insert the articulated parts at different places
20:24:14 <frosch123> anyway, it is available during construction
20:24:53 <frosch123> b_jonas: it checks for the next n signals being red
20:25:11 <frosch123> if your vehicle cause signals to turn red, othe rtrains will be prefer other paths
20:25:56 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: it looks at the signals and the reservation of the tracks some distance ahead, for trains. for trucks it's totally dumb.
20:25:59 <frosch123> if you are using path signals, then the path reservations are avoided by other trains
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20:26:35 <andythenorth> I like the idea of being able to cycle reversed / not reversed
20:26:39 <frosch123> for trucks it checks drive-through stops
20:26:42 <b_jonas> frosch123: great! that makes it much easier
20:26:49 <andythenorth> although maybe the predictability it a bit bland
20:27:08 <andythenorth> sometimes I think a livery or variations UI might be wise
20:27:14 <andythenorth> other times I think it’s bad idea
20:28:13 <Eddi|zuHause> well particularly for the ICE2 the strict alteration would make sense, because you'd probably want to attach them back-to-back
20:30:10 <andythenorth> bah this one is reversed in depot, but not game
20:32:06 <b_jonas> what are you trying to reverse? train engines? tram engines?
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20:50:51 <berndj-blackout> remedial openttd: how do i make towns/cities grow MOAR? is it just a matter of # of deliveries - the more deliveries, the more growth?
20:51:20 <berndj-blackout> my cities seem to max out at 20-40 thousand inhabitants, but i've seen screenshots of 200 thousand plus
20:54:50 <planetmaker> berndj-blackout, it's more a matter of patience.
20:55:34 <planetmaker> and town growth speed. And giving it the right conditions for growth. For using the right (or probably no) town growth game script. And for using the right houses NewGRF
20:56:35 <planetmaker> without game script, 5 well-serviced station in the town or its vicinity suffice to cause highest growth speed. Set in the settings to fastest and it will grow in no time
20:56:58 <planetmaker> you can help town growth by building the roads for it
20:57:21 <planetmaker> making sure there are no dead-end roads within the town helps, too
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21:05:52 <b_jonas> they call this improved town layout? the town still keeps blocking the ends of its own roads with buildings
21:08:28 <berndj-blackout> planetmaker, i've sort of inferred the road-building bit, although i bump into conflicts between the needs of an expanding road network and my rail network
21:08:45 <glx> that's why it's better to place roads by yourself b_jonas :)
21:10:04 <b_jonas> yeah, that's what I'm doing
21:10:10 <planetmaker> b_jonas, you wrongly assume that the improvement parameter was 'town growth'
21:10:12 <b_jonas> stupid train, why did you come in here?
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21:18:36 <b_jonas> planetmaker: does it improve how much towns grow, making it a gradual function of how much I transport rather than keeping it a yes-no thing?
21:18:40 <b_jonas> as opposed to the town layout?
21:19:42 <Sylf> without town growth game script, how much you transport doesn't matter
21:20:22 <Sylf> the only thing that matter is number of stations in or by the city that are serviced regularly, up to 5 of them
21:21:49 <berndj-blackout> stations... rail? road? does it even matter?
21:25:53 <Sylf> bus stops, airport, sea port, rail stations... doesn't matter
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21:34:37 <b_jonas> Sylf: ok, but that still explains why my towns don't grow much
21:34:43 <b_jonas> I only have one station in most of them
21:34:54 <b_jonas> I built one, and sent only a few buses, because I thought it was enough
21:35:18 <Sylf> having only 1 station only helps so much.
21:35:40 <Sylf> more per town, up to 5, is better
21:46:59 <berndj-blackout> so a city with 5 bus stops will grow just as fast as if it had 5 train stations, assuming all are serviced regularly?
21:47:36 <peter1138> station is a station
21:48:55 <berndj-blackout> so the only reason to build train stations is the greater potential for profit?
21:48:56 <Sylf> 5 bus stations with station ratings of 30% are just as effective as 5 train stations with station ratings of 60%
21:49:31 <berndj-blackout> so i've been massively overbuilding bus stations?
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21:49:46 <Sylf> or you just don't like to see 2000 people waiting at your bus stations
21:49:59 <planetmaker> Sylf: I don't think so. The rating actually matters
21:50:11 <berndj-blackout> it makes the municipality hate you, right?
21:50:14 <planetmaker> but 5 well-serviced bus stations are as good as giant stations
21:50:43 <planetmaker> it does that at least, yes, berndj-blackout
21:50:47 <Sylf> I thought the town grows just as fast as long as the stations are serviced regularly
21:51:10 <Sylf> back to the game mechanics page I go....
21:51:13 <planetmaker> hm, maybe, dunno. and too tired to look up :)
21:52:44 <Sylf> what I see is "Town growth can be accelerated by loading and unloading at least one item of cargo at up to five stations within town influence within a two month period. It does not matter which cargos are loaded/unloaded."
21:53:53 <peter1138> no, rating doesn't matter, just that they're serviced
21:55:09 <Sylf> so, you build 5 bus stations in the middle of the town, unleash 1 bus to service them, build road grids everywhere, and it'll keep growing
21:56:10 <Sylf> and the town should hate you for only providing 1 bus for the town of 1 million, but actually they'll love you according to the town rating
21:57:37 <berndj-blackout> i try to play a mix between organic networks and efficiency, so i don't even try to make junctionary-worthy junctions
22:00:01 <andythenorth> so can anyone else add bugs to Iron Horse?
22:00:15 <andythenorth> I have 5 things to do before 1.0.0 right now
22:00:19 <andythenorth> can you spoil my day?
22:00:53 <Sylf> let me take a peek at your bug tracker then
22:01:46 <Sylf> oh yeah, I do have one for iron horse
22:02:35 <Sylf> yup, I'm ready to ruin your day
22:03:21 <Sylf> the loaded wagons don't show loaded sprites in the depots
22:10:13 <andythenorth> added an issue? Or I can
22:10:16 <andythenorth> I know the rough cause
22:11:09 <Sylf> oh, I can't add it if I'm not a member of the project?
22:17:25 <andythenorth> happy bug hunting
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