IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-06-22
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01:00:59 <Eddi|zuHause> oh nightly database backup, i wonder why we haven't met in quite a while
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09:46:23 <Phreeze> any linux guys here ? upgraded server from ubuntu12 to 14, and my VNC has serious problems
09:47:02 <Phreeze> seems to be a problem with keyboard shortcuts, but when using gnome-panel, there's even no keyboard setting....got all the rest of the bunch even the menu for phpmyadmin and so...
09:51:58 <Diablo-D3> try upgrading to a better distro ;)
09:53:49 <Alberth> or a more sane window manager :p
09:54:12 <Phreeze> i just want a desktop i can connect to to start wine and some firefox or so....
09:54:26 <Phreeze> vncserver + some gnome worked perfectly...
09:54:37 <Phreeze> it's the fuck unity that came with it i guess
10:00:21 <Zuu> Newsflash: gnome (at least in Debian Jessie) has an option to get back the old applications menu
10:02:59 <Phreeze> finally got the keys back
10:03:07 <Phreeze> after removing unity etc...
10:03:24 <Phreeze> was supposed to be deleted already....enough playing with some apt-gets fixed it ;)
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10:18:49 <Diablo-D3> Phreeze: just use deb sid bro
10:19:28 * Rubidium wouldn't quite suggest sid for servers
10:20:53 * Rubidium wouldn't suggest dist-upgrading sid from 18 months ago to now in one go either ;)
10:41:43 * Diablo-D3 uses sid on servers.
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10:44:15 <crosbow> is there a way to give all vehicules in a group the shared order?
10:45:42 <crosbow> because when i make a route not with shared order but copy vehicle.. now i added stations and i have to update 150 vehicles..
10:46:54 <Alberth> you know you can also share the order while copying by doing ctrl+click?
10:47:17 <crosbow> but thats still a task? :D
10:47:50 <crosbow> it would be nice if you could add the button: manage list -> add shared order to allvehicles in group and then you click the one vehicle that you want his orders from
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10:48:17 <Alberth> usually people use ctrl+click to start with, so they never run into your problem
10:48:41 <crosbow> but it would convenient
10:49:08 <Alberth> oh I agree there, groups are quite basic to say the least :)
10:49:33 <crosbow> yes lets extend them to fields! ;-D
10:50:14 <crosbow> saying that i should refresh my algreba knowlegde
10:50:26 <Diablo-D3> crosbow: control-click to clone
10:50:30 <Diablo-D3> it does exactly what you want
10:50:48 <crosbow> i already earned 10 billion
10:51:58 <crosbow> ok bye i have to walk my dog.. i hope some developers will add this feature ;D
11:23:56 <Phreeze> dont know that much about linux insider tips ;)
11:29:19 <Alberth> what is there to know, it's usually just english text :p
11:29:43 <Phreeze> like alternative desktop window managers
11:31:41 <Alberth> that works just like all other software, pick one, try it, if it is a PITA, find a better one, repeat
11:34:53 <fonsinchen> window managers are a PITA, just live with it or write your own.
11:37:32 <Zuu> And there is a *lot* of different alternative window managers if you want to try them all.
11:38:05 <Zuu> Including concepts like tiling window managers.
11:38:46 <fonsinchen> That's because everyone is writing their own.
11:39:47 <Phreeze> i dont want to have crap on the server or stuff thats running that shouldnt etc
11:40:07 <Zuu> If it is a server, why have a window manager at all?
11:40:22 <Zuu> If you install debian, you can opt out to not even get the X server.
11:47:51 <Diablo-D3> its not opting out as much as just not installing it
11:49:56 <Phreeze> because i NEED THE GRAPHICAL INTERFACE ?
11:50:03 <Phreeze> wine + utorrent needed
11:53:50 <Alberth> normally you run the X server and windowy stuff at the system with the screen
11:54:19 <Alberth> and tunnel you x11 connection with ssh from the reomote
11:54:42 <Alberth> or perhaps to the remote :)
11:55:49 <Alberth> unix has separated the concepts of machine where you sit behind from the machine where you work at
12:00:57 <peter1139> Sadly most apps use client-side rendering these days :(
12:04:56 <Phreeze> im not at all into that X stuff
12:05:12 <Phreeze> lol Vettel out again....
12:06:29 <Alberth> it's not about X, it's about how you access a remote machine
12:06:58 <Phreeze> ssh for nongraphical stuff ;)
12:07:12 <Phreeze> but wine needs a graphical interface
12:07:56 <Alberth> no, ssh for remote access, everything
12:08:26 <Alberth> X is an extra service you can have
12:09:55 <Alberth> you really don't want 2 ways to access a remote, it's hard enough to keep one access methods reasonable secure
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12:10:28 <Phreeze> if ssh isnt secure, i dont care anymore about any security....
12:10:37 <Phreeze> it's 1 port and it's ultrabasic
12:11:19 <Phreeze> for VNC i need 1 port, changed from default, same goes for ssh... + fail2ban that bans after 3 tries...i don't know how i could be more secure
12:11:20 <peter1139> Remember when we used telnet...?
12:12:27 <Alberth> I have been using it, mostly on a private lan
12:13:44 <frosch123> remember when password only had 8 significant characters?
12:14:51 <Alberth> the number 13 pops up in my mind, but maybe that was later?
12:16:04 <frosch123> i just remember a mail from 2008 or so from the admin, stating that password must be at least 8 chars, but there are some machines in the basement which only support 8, so we should use exactly 8 :p
12:17:31 <Alberth> you sent a thank you for reducing the search space? :D
12:18:55 <frosch123> well, as long as the admins use a group root account, and consider it too complicated to use different passwords...
12:19:28 <Alberth> I went through university without ssh, I am pretty sure, but I did very little remote access as all work stations had a a screen
12:20:02 <frosch123> no need to remember your password, if you can just ask people on the corridor for the root password :)
12:20:50 <Rubidium> oh, you mean a simple 7 letter password for administrator that are not changed ever, but there being a rule that you need to change your password every 3 months of at least 8 characters long with some particular minimum complexity
12:21:03 <Alberth> never did that stuff on university computers, I had a Linux 386 to experiment with of my own
12:21:21 <frosch123> Rubidium: yeah, something like that
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12:54:03 <Eddi|zuHause> <Phreeze> wine + utorrent needed <-- use transmission or somesuch
12:54:52 <Eddi|zuHause> it can run on the server without GUI, and you can connect to it from your local computer
12:55:12 <Eddi|zuHause> even through your browser
15:03:12 <DorpsGek> __ln__: SmatZ was last seen in #openttd 46 weeks, 5 days, 17 hours, 31 minutes, and 14 seconds ago: <SmatZ> wish I were so lucky...
15:03:30 <MTsPony> can someone tell me what ICU does with openttd? can i leave it out safely for compilation?
15:05:57 <Rubidium> if the language you intend to use is 100% ASCII and uses the ASCII order of letters to sort, then you can leave it out safely
15:07:22 <Rubidium> if your language requires right-to-left or fancy composition of characters, then you're completely screwed without ICU
15:07:42 <Rubidium> in all other cases it's probable that only the sorting of texts is wrong
15:09:44 <MTsPony> im just asking because it looks like its doubling the compiled binary output
15:10:08 <MTsPony> 7>iculx.lib(ParagraphLayout.obj) : warning LNK4099: PDB 'vc100.pdb' was not found with 'iculx.lib(ParagraphLayout.obj)' or at 'C:\ottdsrc\objs\Win32\Release\vc100.pdb'; linking object as if no debug info
15:10:20 <MTsPony> and it gives some warnings when linking
15:15:33 <Rubidium> those warnings are mostly harmless
15:16:35 <MTsPony> im just not sure why my binary is 14mb big
15:17:37 <Eddi|zuHause> made a debug build instead of a release build?
15:17:46 <MTsPony> usin intel compiler :p
15:17:57 <Eddi|zuHause> that was not the question
15:19:30 <Eddi|zuHause> try running "strip"
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16:23:02 <frosch123> so, everyone is coming home :)
16:24:43 <planetmaker> yeah, everybody getting home. Scary wind to sail today :)
16:25:26 <frosch123> yeah, heavy sun wind
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16:25:44 <planetmaker> nah, that was mostly shielded by clouds :)
16:26:32 <planetmaker> you also live in or near Germany's sunniest part :)
16:27:15 <planetmaker> definitely. Can't be excused I'm afraid. Though I wonder that you're sorry about it :P
16:29:09 * andythenorth had to drink wine
16:29:23 <planetmaker> sounds like serious hardship, too
16:29:30 <frosch123> i think this town is even called "bavarian nice"
16:30:09 <frosch123> (as in "nice", the italian town)
16:30:39 <frosch123> yeah, it's french :/
16:32:26 <frosch123> the german name for that town does not sound particulary french, so i just claim that it has been italian at some point in time :)
16:36:27 <Eddi|zuHause> the old local languages down there sound more like italian than french anyway
16:39:13 <MTsPony> hey guys im trying to apply a patch to opemttd but once i do that the visual studio project files disappear
16:39:24 <MTsPony> openttd_vs100.sln etc
16:39:53 <MTsPony> so i cant load it into VS2010 anymore
16:40:34 <Eddi|zuHause> run projects/generate(.vbs)
16:40:58 <MTsPony> well imfigured i had to,regenerate em
16:41:42 <__ln__> there's also monaco of bavaria
16:41:44 <MTsPony> it says generating openttd_vs80.vcproj80
16:42:01 <MTsPony> then i click ok and it gives an error
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16:53:38 <MTsPony> seems to be going wrong at line 318
16:59:51 <MTsPony> ok redid everything same deal :/
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17:08:56 <MTsPony> what is it trying to open?
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17:15:04 <planetmaker> MTsPony, we know neither the patch nor the error you get. How can we do more than do random guesses if you don't show us the patch and a verbatim copy&paste in a pastebin of the error with more than one line context in the console?
17:15:07 <michi_cc> MTsPony: If a patch causes them to "disappear", I'd wager the patch is either faulty or the applying part didn't work.
17:15:46 <MTsPony> yeh as soon as i apply the patch they all disappear except for generate files
17:16:28 <MTsPony> tho im patchin with tortoise
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17:16:45 <MTsPony> in linux it didnt seem to even touch anythig but cpp files
17:18:01 <MTsPony> does a patch like daylenght actually needs to patch those project files in the first place?
17:18:10 <MTsPony> i thought it should merely patch .cpp files
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17:21:14 <MTsPony> k i think i can manage from here, thx you did help actually :p
17:26:57 <Eddi|zuHause> these files need to be touched when new .cpp files are added
17:27:22 <Eddi|zuHause> and a few other corner cases, which should be rare
17:27:23 <Rubidium> so... apparantly a patchpack named spring 2013 is "very close" to 1.4 (first release in spring of 2014)
17:27:51 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: afair the "spring 2013 patch pack" was updated in 2014
17:28:10 <Eddi|zuHause> and with "very close" they mean "it contains cargodist" :p
17:28:34 <Rubidium> then chillpp is close to 1.4 as well
17:28:41 <Eddi|zuHause> at least it's closer than chillpp, which has no grfv8 support
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17:34:51 <Rubidium> it's quite unclear what version that patch is based on
17:35:04 <Rubidium> but... at least is has ~24000 Russian town names
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17:40:24 <Rubidium> apparantly the patch is against r26385 but some things are badly merged (or not at all)
17:40:44 <Rubidium> anyhow, a 4.3 MiB patch ain't fun
17:41:20 <Rubidium> and it's a badly made patch anyhow
17:42:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i've never ever looked at it
17:42:38 <Rubidium> it even adds an "old russian" translation
17:44:09 <DigitalFox> Been a couple of years since the last time here.
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17:44:35 <DigitalFox> Anyway, I'm compiling Open in Visual Studio in release mode and my EXE is almost 14MB.
17:44:56 <planetmaker> that's to be expected
17:45:08 <DigitalFox> The official release is like 8 or 9 MB, so what may I be doing wrong?
17:45:11 <planetmaker> if you compile with ICU and don't use a cut-down ICU library
17:45:23 <planetmaker> you do nothing wrong. We use a special-crafted library
17:45:28 <DigitalFox> Well I do get warnings about ICU
17:46:26 <planetmaker> likely. dunno what warning you get, though
17:46:40 <Rubidium> well, I guess it's the one about the .pdb
17:46:43 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26661 /trunk/src/lang (5 files) (2014-06-22 17:46:32 UTC)
17:46:44 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:46:45 <DorpsGek> italian - 15 changes by lorenzodv
17:46:46 <DorpsGek> korean - 1 changes by telk5093
17:46:47 <DorpsGek> lithuanian - 19 changes by Stabilitronas
17:46:48 <DorpsGek> brazilian_portuguese - 4 changes by Tucalipe
17:46:49 <DorpsGek> slovak - 1 changes by Milsa
17:47:11 <DigitalFox> A bunch of "4>icule.lib(ArabicLayoutEngine.obj) : warning LNK4099: PDB 'vc100.pdb' was not found with 'icule.lib(..."
17:54:42 <DigitalFox> planetmaker: I took a look at the source of GFX+ Industries and compiled a GRF that no longer overwrites the sprites of Farm and Iron Ore of Zbase. Is it ok if I post that GRF in GFX Industries topic?
17:55:32 <planetmaker> DigitalFox, I assume such grf - if you don't include the zbase sprites - will lack the ground awareness which OpenGFX+Industries actually has - and why it re-defines the graphics
17:56:13 <DigitalFox> This mainly just for temperate without snow
17:56:13 <planetmaker> But yes, you can post it, if you publish the patch which creates the grf and the grf preferentially as full bundle (make bundle_tar) which contains readme/license/changelog (include yours)
17:56:34 <planetmaker> basically: mind the license, then all is fine :)
17:57:15 <planetmaker> (or if you want, not patch, but full source)
17:57:16 <DigitalFox> Oh I don't want any credits :)
17:57:28 <planetmaker> but you changed it :)
17:57:55 <DigitalFox> It's just for anyone using 32bpp that migh help
17:57:55 <planetmaker> I didn't release it, so, it's yours to claim the authorship of the changes you make
17:59:23 <DigitalFox> ok, later I'll just have to figure the tar thing
17:59:53 <planetmaker> tar is just an archive which contains grf, readme, license and changelog
18:00:05 <planetmaker> an archive format which OpenTTD can read
18:00:35 <DigitalFox> Yeah I know but what do you use to create the tar? Example Winrar?
18:00:51 <planetmaker> make bundle_tar :)
18:00:59 <planetmaker> I don't use windows when I can avoid it.
18:01:21 <planetmaker> thus the build system works fine on osx and linux
18:02:10 <DigitalFox> Currently playing with VS optimizations, comparing /Ox with /O2.
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18:03:37 <DigitalFox> I wonder if I'll notice any difference in CPU usage. :\ Going to run 2 instances side by side.
18:03:53 <DigitalFox> Thanks planetmaker :)
18:04:05 <planetmaker> it will double your cpu usage
18:04:59 <planetmaker> I actually wonder how you managed to build it on windows at all :)
18:05:20 <planetmaker> no, opengfx+industries. Didn't you talk about that?
18:06:06 <DigitalFox> Why do you think that?
18:06:51 <planetmaker> how did you build the grf?
18:07:51 <DigitalFox> I actually did some search for a shop sprite that would replace the one included for one 32bpp, but didn't find anything on coop that made sense.
18:08:32 <planetmaker> yes... which source did you use and how did you make a grf from it?
18:08:35 <DigitalFox> nmlc -c --grf OpenGFX+.grf ogfx-industries.nml
18:08:43 <planetmaker> and how did you get the nml?
18:09:18 <planetmaker> oh, please, don't call it OpenGFX+.grf. That's a whole series of OpenGFX+ grfs
18:09:27 <planetmaker> make clear what it contains (industries)
18:09:46 <planetmaker> oh, you used the pre-processed nml, not the real source
18:09:49 <DigitalFox> Oh i've renamed but I was using spaces so...
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18:13:01 <planetmaker> the source is imho easier to browse and modify than the one big-blob pre-processed file created from it :)
18:14:11 <planetmaker> but whatever suits you is fine
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18:15:01 <planetmaker> after all, we provide the pre-processed nml file mostly for cases like these, where people don't want or can't use the build system to build it
18:16:03 <DigitalFox> It does make learning how everything works a bit more complex, since many files are only used by the coop build system. But it's fun :)
18:18:36 <planetmaker> well, the code is structures similarily to openttd. you built it from something where all cpp files are concatenated to one big file
18:22:01 <DigitalFox> I feel really bad for being a 0 on drawing graphics, I would love to build 32bpp GRF's :( \My first GRF would be adapting ogfx-biggui to 32bpp
18:22:28 <DigitalFox> Can't live without in my 1080p screen
18:26:13 <DigitalFox> If someone want's to draw 32bpp graphics for Open, what app is recommended?
18:26:58 <DigitalFox> Any special output? Just regular png's?
18:27:04 <Eddi|zuHause> why does it even matter?
18:27:56 <DigitalFox> Eddi|zuHause: Well because I think I'm going to give it a shot
18:33:01 <planetmaker> well, the 32bpp sprites mostly aren't drawn. They're all rendered really. Except GUI
18:33:29 <planetmaker> (and blender or 3ds are rendering programmes)
18:35:35 <DigitalFox> So what you are saying is that the GUI is probably the most easy part since it's like a static image and rest is modeled, for example a train ?
18:36:54 <planetmaker> trains are also static images :)
18:37:00 <planetmaker> But that's how people usually do it, yes
18:37:26 <planetmaker> uh... I would assume those parts of the openttd wiki are.... VERY old
18:37:34 <planetmaker> pre-dating the support for 32bpp newgrfs
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18:38:01 <planetmaker> so yes, you can start there sure, especially for graphics, but beware the grain of salt out there
18:38:26 <DigitalFox> Yes but give me a graphics newbie some insight :)
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18:39:56 <planetmaker> the only 32bpp work I created was done in gimp :)
18:40:01 <DigitalFox> No promises, but a complete 32bpp GUI is something I really want to have and since there are none available, I'll see what I can do and if anything atleast usable I'll share on the forum.
18:40:26 <planetmaker> doesn't zbase have a 32bpp UI?
18:40:33 <planetmaker> pota-ghat landscape
18:41:48 <planetmaker> what about providing sprites for the missing UI elements? Honestly, I'd like them all in normal zoom (and not as big gui) in zBase
18:41:58 <planetmaker> opengfx+biggui is for zoom UI
18:42:48 <Taede> what you really want is a gui-grf with a parameter for icon size (standard, 1.5x, 2x, 4x)
18:42:55 <DigitalFox> Well atleast on my Screen the ideal is 1.5X
18:43:16 <DigitalFox> Taede: That's why I say I use ogfx-biggui
18:43:46 <DigitalFox> juzza1: That's way over my head :)
18:44:11 <planetmaker> well, whatever, I'd like to see zbase without those missing sprites. If you would provide those, that'll be a real advantage
18:44:20 <planetmaker> and if it's in 1x zoom - even better :D
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19:58:09 <andythenorth> I could try and debug grfcodec
20:02:04 <mist> is it possible to play openttd multiplaer coop?
20:02:20 <Zuu> mist: Yes, just join #openttdcoop
20:03:48 <FLHerne> mist: Or any other server where someone is willing to let you join there server
20:04:21 <FLHerne> s/there/their/;s/other company/other server/
20:04:29 * FLHerne can't get things right today
20:12:55 <Eddi|zuHause> you even messed up your s-es
20:22:52 <FLHerne> Hmm? I know I messed up the first one, hence trying to undo that with the second
20:24:14 <Eddi|zuHause> then at least the first one should also have a "g"
20:25:22 <FLHerne> Ah, yes. I wasn't planning on multiple substitutions, forgot I had a correct instance of 'server' too :-/
20:26:12 <Eddi|zuHause> your last one undoes the first one, without actually changing the one you intended to change
20:26:22 <FLHerne> So 's/their server/their company/', and I'll finally have typed what I wanted to type 24 minutes ago :P
20:26:36 <FLHerne> If IRC even did substitutions, of course
20:27:25 <Eddi|zuHause> you could instead have just written a corrected version, with much less confusion for the reader :p
20:27:42 <Eddi|zuHause> why easy if you can do complicated :p
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20:41:32 <frosch123> @kban 84000 FJB-Guy
20:41:32 <DorpsGek> frosch123: Error: 84000 is not in #openttd.
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20:41:44 <frosch123> @kban FJB-Guy 84000
20:41:44 *** DorpsGek sets mode: +b *!~FJB@0001ad56.user.oftc.net
20:41:45 *** FJB-Guy was kicked by DorpsGek (frosch123)
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21:39:29 <mist> i just thought openttd was always "versus" mode in multiplayer
21:39:41 <mist> but this is great news, now i can play together with the gf instead of against her
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21:52:23 <Eddi|zuHause> no matter how long you play this game, you always see people that play the game in ways you never imagined
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