IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-06-21
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08:30:34 <supermop> should make an industry set where every cargo is just 'containers'
08:31:05 <supermop> and every industry accepts containers to produce containers
08:31:21 <planetmaker> for better effect call the cargo 'stuff'
08:31:33 <supermop> i guess you need a container mine to get stared
08:31:33 <planetmaker> containers are just the packaging unit it is shipped in
08:34:37 <V453000> never to be seen in the Closed wagons (:
08:36:59 <supermop> better yet full pallets+empty container -> full container
08:39:15 <supermop> stuff+empty pallets -> factory -> full pallets, full pallets+empty container -> warehouse -> full containers -> distribution center -> mail + empty pallets + empty continers
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08:39:57 <supermop> then you take the empty containers and pallets to be building materials for trendy modern restaurants and homes
08:40:57 <Diablo-D3> heh, I just did 8000 pop on btpro.nl in 5 years.
08:41:08 <supermop> and amazon drones take the mail from distribution center to houses
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14:26:17 <andythenorth> drones are a missing cargo type
14:26:27 <andythenorth> and the PIPE grf seems pretty good so far
14:26:54 <andythenorth> the engines are weirdly presented though
14:27:15 <andythenorth> coloured letters used freely
14:29:20 <andythenorth> he uses low capacity, high speed engines
14:29:34 <andythenorth> I’d probably have used super-high-capacity, low speed
14:29:40 <andythenorth> but I guess he knows what he’s doing
14:30:13 <V453000> that guess is wrong on so many levels andythenorth :P
14:30:45 <andythenorth> V453000: fancy making a pipeline grf with me? o_O
14:31:42 * andythenorth wonders if V approves of pipelines
14:31:56 <Alberth> we need a powerline anyway :)
14:32:34 <Alberth> although yetis may not approve of stealing their batteries
14:32:39 <andythenorth> and have power stations produce electricity?
14:33:21 <Pikka> articulated electricity!
14:33:58 <andythenorth> articulated electric ships!
14:35:23 <andythenorth> articulated road types, with newgrf fields
14:36:20 <andythenorth> I should try and fix grfcodec :|
14:37:00 <andythenorth> I found some stuff I didn’t understand about compiling some C++ things against the 10.6 std-lib
14:37:10 <andythenorth> which might be unrelated, and I don’t know how to do it anyway
14:37:37 <Eddi|zuHause> that's always a good start to know what you don't know
14:38:02 <andythenorth> it would take a long time to enumerate all the things I know I don’t know
14:38:06 <andythenorth> we don’t have that long :(
14:38:15 <V453000> I have no clue wtf to do with pipelines andy
14:38:20 <V453000> or what do you mean by it
14:38:58 <andythenorth> have you tried PIPE?
14:39:14 <andythenorth> makes oil transport less boring
14:40:32 <V453000> well I looked at the trains it gives
14:40:51 <andythenorth> hmm I could ro-ro it
14:40:59 <andythenorth> would make more sense than terminals with signalled passing loops
14:41:33 <V453000> idk, nothing to look at there?
14:41:40 <V453000> if it at least looked nice
14:42:12 <V453000> But I do believe the idea could be interpreted nicely
14:43:01 <V453000> I would probably make something like "canals" though, so the "cargo inside" can be seen
14:43:02 <andythenorth> the signals are bad
14:43:17 <andythenorth> I think it could be improved
14:43:30 <andythenorth> there’s no point doing realistic
14:43:35 <andythenorth> the signals should be arrows on the ground
14:43:39 <andythenorth> and the trains should be visible
14:43:54 <andythenorth> I am trying to rebuild a route and I’m inevitably going to have a crash
14:44:30 <V453000> creating something like trenches in the ground with -thing- filling them could look great
14:44:53 <V453000> probably requires some offset wtfing
14:45:02 <V453000> bridges would be very wtf
14:45:21 <V453000> ok then pipe above ground :D can be like a square half-pipe
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14:45:38 <V453000> and trains are just bricks of -liquid-
14:45:47 <V453000> would actually not be very hard or long to draw
14:46:35 <V453000> if you help me code yeti, I will help you draw your pipe :)
14:49:47 <V453000> not like we are disturbing any other communication
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15:53:29 <mist> if i place an airport between two cities but both of them are inside the purple "coverage" squares, will it give delivered goods to both cities or only one?
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16:03:58 <frosch123> only the town it is named after
16:22:51 <Eddi|zuHause> it's the default name that counts, so renaming does not help
16:23:53 <Eddi|zuHause> what does help is building a bus station in the town you desire the target and then connecting the airport to it (via ctrl+click)
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17:45:20 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26659 trunk/src/lang/catalan.txt (2014-06-21 17:45:12 UTC)
17:45:21 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:22 <DorpsGek> catalan - 31 changes by juanjo
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17:55:51 <Argensis> Hey, anyone know what "You can't build a railway station here" with no cause listed could be caused by?
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18:00:42 <planetmaker> Argensis, many things... are there slopes? are all tiles clear?
18:01:17 <Argensis> Blank grass tiles, just outside a city where I have a very good rating
18:01:36 <Argensis> Tried a few more things and it seems to be just one station set which won't let me (the city stations grf)
18:02:00 <Argensis> I guess it must have some restriction on dates or something.
18:02:02 <planetmaker> newgrfs can require certain sizes. And possibly other things
18:02:13 <planetmaker> like dates or whatever. dunno
18:02:24 <planetmaker> ask the grf author what requirements a certain station has
18:02:44 <planetmaker> maybe it has a readme which explains stuff?
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18:12:20 <Argensis> As far as I can tell, tht's on the author's wiki which has ceased to exist
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18:24:36 <MTsPony> can someone here explain why faster moving trains increase cpu usage? when i enable wagon speed limits or replace trains with ones that are twice as slow, cpu usage drops in half.
18:24:52 <MTsPony> strange thing is it only affects stuff visible
18:25:42 <MTsPony> so it cant be the pathfinder since it doesnt have any effect if i move my camera out of train range
18:26:16 <MTsPony> is it because trains redraw themselves more?
18:28:32 * FLHerne can't think of another good reason
18:31:08 <planetmaker> seems likely. you can quickly test when you minimize openttd and observe cpu usage
18:31:44 <planetmaker> or just change window size.
18:31:55 <MTsPony> yeh im pretty sure its the reason :(
18:32:34 <MTsPony> can you guys implement a function so it reduces rhe drawing for faster trains? lol
18:33:24 <MTsPony> skip drawing on every other frame :p
18:33:29 <Rubidium> not without making the trains seem behaving weirdly
18:33:51 <Rubidium> which would trigger bug reports
18:33:53 <MTsPony> isnt it less noticable the higher speed the train goes?
18:34:15 <planetmaker> even more noticable. They will start jumping
18:34:45 <MTsPony> wouldnt be to hard to make it an optional setting?
18:35:56 <planetmaker> Sorry, such setting, I don't think it makes sense
18:36:07 <MTsPony> anything else apart from,disabling smoke and animations to reduce cpu usage?
18:37:08 <FLHerne> MTsPony: Ships are still lag-inducing. Cargodist can eat quite a bit of CPU if enabled.
18:37:27 <MTsPony> im talking about visuals on the screen
18:37:50 <Rubidium> are you using NewGRFs?
18:37:57 <Rubidium> especially for trains?
18:37:57 <FLHerne> MTsPony: The less other stuff is using CPU time, the more time is available for the blitter to blit things
18:38:28 <MTsPony> i am using alot of train grfs yeah, would that significantly increase cpu usage just by looking at em?
18:38:37 <Rubidium> if those use weird animation triggers or other stuff, that could mean OpenTTD has to ask/execute some NewGRF code for each and every time the train moves
18:39:02 <Rubidium> especially when changing direction
18:39:09 <MTsPony> right, like some locos make animation right?
18:39:24 <MTsPony> im not sure if the global setting also disables those,tho
18:39:56 <Rubidium> and we need to do those checks even when they are not drawn, because we a cache of the (viewport) location of vehicles is much more efficient than looping over every vehicle when trying to determine what to (re)draw
18:40:59 <MTsPony> well my original question was more about the direct link to train speed and cpu isage
18:41:41 <Rubidium> higher train speed -> more reasons to ask NewGRF certain things about the sprites of the train -> more CPU usage
18:41:58 <MTsPony> mhh yeh good point i guess
18:42:30 <MTsPony> do other clients on the same server have to do the same calcs?
18:42:43 <planetmaker> yes, all. and the server
18:43:44 <MTsPony> tho, dosnt the dedicated server skip graphic business?
18:44:47 <MTsPony> isnt that what the "dedicated" video driver is for?
18:45:02 <MTsPony> i guess,that just means it doesnt render any screen output
18:45:34 <Rubidium> it's to provide a binary that doesn't need a load of windowing system libraries to just run and not show anything
18:46:38 <MTsPony> last question then, why does the dedicated server refuse to run when i set the resolution to 1,1 whereas 1,20 or somethinglike 13,13 stil works? lol
18:49:58 <MTsPony> guess that question has no logical answer lol,thanks tho
18:50:35 <Rubidium> well, please answer it yourself
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18:55:43 <andythenorth> V453000: that was a nice room we went in
18:55:47 <andythenorth> let’s do it again some time
19:04:10 <MTsPony> what decides the spot for the camera when you load a game or join a server? i was under the impression it was stored in the savegame but i tried changing the spot,,save and load but it doesnt change
19:04:51 <MTsPony> or is it decided by scenario editor only?
19:04:52 <frosch123> top-left corner is stored
19:05:03 <frosch123> when you join a game, the server defines it
19:05:17 <MTsPony> any way to change it in an already running game?
19:05:45 <frosch123> maybe rcon scrollto
19:13:04 <andythenorth> I actually know of no reason why Road Hog has that grfid
19:13:26 <andythenorth> and as a satisfied customer of Canadian Stations, it seems a bit close
19:27:19 <planetmaker> grids can differ by one and it doesn't matter...
19:28:10 <planetmaker> thus any 'too close' is artificial at best
19:29:29 <andythenorth> there is / was a convention of incrementing grfids
19:29:34 <andythenorth> 81 / FE are pretty close
19:30:20 <planetmaker> @calc 0xFE - 0x81
19:30:34 <planetmaker> room for quite a few. More than I care to write in my life
19:30:49 <andythenorth> I dunno, Canadian stuff gets released pretty often...
19:30:58 <frosch123> lol, are you differing in only one byte? :p
19:31:44 <frosch123> andythenorth: CA is deprecated, ozt uses a different prefix today
19:31:49 <frosch123> there won't be no new
19:31:54 <frosch123> what's the third byte?
19:32:36 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: afair the reason for chosing this grfid was specifically this "i reserve 1 million GRFIDs that nobody else may use" crap
19:32:51 <andythenorth> nah, that was Iron Horse
19:32:58 <andythenorth> this one smells of accident
19:33:03 <andythenorth> trolling should be deliberate
19:34:03 <planetmaker> possibly I trolled you both by suggesting it
19:34:12 <planetmaker> but I don't recall
19:34:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm pretty sure i took part in that discussion
19:35:13 <andythenorth> someone read the logs
19:35:18 <andythenorth> then I can comment the code :P
19:35:26 <andythenorth> I searched my transcripts, but my client is crappy for search
19:40:36 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but that's not when it was decided?
19:41:24 <planetmaker> dunno when it was decided. I really go no clue
19:43:08 <andythenorth> at least we have something to talk about :P
19:45:43 <frosch123> planetmaker: apparently that was the decision :)
19:45:59 <frosch123> the grfid commit is 2014-03-09 20:53
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19:49:16 <FLHerne> Huh, if I ever properly finish these pointless objects I'll actually have a valid reason to use a CAxx id :P
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19:50:13 <frosch123> just put it into the specs: if you have no idea what grfid to use, make it start with CA :)
19:50:16 <fonsinchen> It seems like OzTrans' move gave ideas to everyone
19:50:22 * fonsinchen gets chips and beer
19:50:32 <andythenorth> oh it’s frosch’s fault
19:51:28 <andythenorth> suggested CA because Dan is Canadian
19:51:58 <andythenorth> the nice thing is that everyone automatically assumed I was trolling
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19:52:58 <DorpsGek> Commit by fonsinchen :: r26660 trunk/src/cargopacket.h (2014-06-21 19:52:52 UTC)
19:52:59 <DorpsGek> -Fix: CargoPacket::SourceStation() returns a StationID.
19:54:03 <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes the time is just right for everything to come together :)
19:54:33 <Eddi|zuHause> half a year earlier the outcome probably would have been entirely different
19:55:32 <andythenorth> PIPE should offer two sizes of pipeline :P
19:55:39 <andythenorth> this one isn’t big enough
19:55:54 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: anyway, the answer for that question "it's a joke, but i have no clue what it is" apparently is: "CA" for being CA, and 1830 as the start year
19:56:12 <andythenorth> I updated the comment in code ;)
19:56:58 <Eddi|zuHause> i still think BCD would have been better...
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20:08:31 <andythenorth> PIPE is my new favourite thing
20:12:58 <Eddi|zuHause> there was a disturbance in the force
20:14:02 <FLHerne> ten-foot laser pole, wasn't it?
20:15:19 <andythenorth> did anyone make a new Silicon Valley yet?
20:15:19 <frosch123> oh, didn't know that actually made it into a grf
20:15:33 <andythenorth> frosch123: it did, and it’s surprisingly good
20:15:40 <andythenorth> I was prepared to disdain it :P
20:16:07 <andythenorth> so that answers all future requests for pipelines
20:16:13 <andythenorth> it would also work for electricity too
20:16:17 <andythenorth> but that’s a BAD FEATURE
20:16:49 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it's the perfect thing for a rondje-style network
20:17:34 <andythenorth> I just get cycling in Holland
20:19:01 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: buy the vehicle at one end, and sell it on the other end after unloading
20:21:58 <andythenorth> I would definitely definitely look for ‘Share orders’ under the ‘Go to’ dropdown
20:22:04 <Eddi|zuHause> in any case, i think it's the wrong way to implement pipelines. pipelines aren't fast, they are slow, but each time something is pushed in one end, somethhing comes out at the other end
20:22:55 <Eddi|zuHause> also, i think it's better as roadtype
20:23:05 <andythenorth> yes, we have lots of those spare
20:24:39 <Eddi|zuHause> now this force thing is just disturbing
20:25:10 <Rubidium> ... but... when you push something in, it won't come out until after a delay
20:25:35 <Rubidium> after all, the pressure wave needs to propagate
20:26:31 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: sure, but my point is the actual cargo doesn't travel nearly as fast as the pressure wave
20:28:21 <Rubidium> though you can model the the input to output delay by using fast vehicles
20:28:42 <andythenorth> and gameplay…? :P
20:29:00 <Rubidium> in a sense it's all a black box and you don't need to care about the internal implementation
20:29:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: it does significantly affect the payment curve
20:30:21 <andythenorth> I think he has it about right with fast vehicles
20:30:28 <andythenorth> I would have done slow, but it would be boring
20:31:24 <Eddi|zuHause> slow definitely collides with the railway system, signals, junctions, etc.
20:32:43 <andythenorth> I think his implementation is quite nice
20:32:51 <andythenorth> the graphics for signals are horrible
20:33:23 <andythenorth> and there are too many incremental upgrades to engines
20:34:26 <planetmaker> pipes should not have upgrades really, should they?
20:34:43 <andythenorth> he upgrades the ‘pumps’ (trains)
20:34:47 <planetmaker> well, maybe... yeah
20:36:10 <Eddi|zuHause> there may be a case for introducing a junction-less pipeline network type, for oil, electricity, cable cars, etc.
20:36:42 <andythenorth> I proposed ‘continuous flow’ years ago
20:36:45 <andythenorth> now I sound like MB :)
20:37:02 <andythenorth> one day I will be MB
20:37:13 <Alberth> it worked in TTDPatch flawlessly
20:38:25 <andythenorth> no junctions = no depots
20:38:27 <Eddi|zuHause> whenever a <capacity unit> amount at the loading station is available, all entities on the pipe are pushed along on the pipeline
20:38:36 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: sounds nice :)
20:38:50 <Eddi|zuHause> basically each loading step.
20:39:27 <Eddi|zuHause> question is what happens when during a loading step, the amount is not available
20:39:35 <Eddi|zuHause> push an empty unit, or don't push?
20:42:17 <andythenorth> otherwise networks block horribly
20:42:33 <andythenorth> or add network segments or something
20:42:55 <andythenorth> can’t think what benefit segments have
20:47:36 <Eddi|zuHause> you make segments by putting a pumping station inbetween
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20:52:40 <andythenorth> frosch123: for the record, SV with FIRS Arctic Basic, Manufacturing Supplies
20:53:27 <frosch123> yay, a happy customer :)
20:54:03 <andythenorth> it has just the right degree of connectedness in the cargos
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22:18:46 <Eddi|zuHause> back then there were actually radio shows that transmitted computer programs. which you could record on tape and then load into the computer
22:19:01 <Eddi|zuHause> but that was way before my time...
22:23:05 <__ln__> there were, yes... (and was before my time too). but the most shocking thing about it is that there were radioshows about programming computers.
22:25:41 <Eddi|zuHause> well, then there were tv shows, and then youtube videos, and...
22:26:41 <Eddi|zuHause> nowadays i keep thinking how did anyone ever get work done without googling how to do it first...
22:28:44 <Eddi|zuHause> funny bit on the side: i learned HTML before i ever went on the internet
22:29:20 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: we used to read books :)
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22:30:11 <Taede> and 'wonder what this does'
22:30:38 <Alberth> if it looked harmless enough, yeah :)
22:31:05 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a red button labeled "don't press this", what could possiblygo wrong...
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