IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-06-20
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00:00:01 <glx> but I think some devs use vi
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04:56:29 <Supercheese> Any reason why Iron Horse's grfID is "CA\12\1E" ?
04:58:00 <Supercheese> Where does the "CA" come from "Iron Horse"?
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07:24:23 <planetmaker> Supercheese, it comes from the canadian sprite artist. And the intended theme. I recon. But I have no clue
07:26:20 <planetmaker> Supercheese, and the grfID is no problem. The problem is that OzTrans needs to reserve all 65k grfIDs starting with CA for himself plus additionally all grfIDs starting with the character 0x97, thus another 17 million
07:26:52 <Supercheese> I agree, but I was confused where the CA came from; sprite artist makes sense
07:38:32 <V453000> I just dont understand why does someone have the need to CREATE problems for themselves (apart from people related to the problem) for no reason
07:38:37 <V453000> that is just escaping me
07:47:28 <peter1139> "never reached cpu limit even on huge maps, even on the old pc which had a Q6600 quadcore."
07:47:39 <peter1139> Q6600, while a bit old now, is hardly weak :D
07:48:18 <peter1139> Raspberry Pi... now that's weak.
07:50:30 <V453000> well if most people have 100 trains on 4k x 4k then yes it might be ok on almost any pc :D
07:56:19 <peter1139> Hmm, I still have a copy of the RISC OS port source.
07:56:24 <peter1139> Shame it's from 2005 o_O
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11:00:00 <Eddi|zuHause> whenever you say the opposite of what i think, i feel validated in my opinion :p
11:00:33 <V453000> well in this case ... :P
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13:59:55 <andythenorth> I still can’t find what the actual joke was
13:59:59 <andythenorth> searched the logs :P
14:08:36 <andythenorth> anybody use grfcodec in windows?
14:20:29 <andythenorth> does the windows binary just work, or do I have to install mingw and whatever?
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14:21:36 <Rubidium> andythenorth: it should (tm) just (c) work ;)
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18:28:18 <__ln__> V453000: is it legal to take photos in czech?
18:29:32 <Eddi|zuHause> probably depends on what's on them
18:34:50 <andythenorth> can we run grfcodec as a web service?
18:41:41 <Eddi|zuHause> well, actually, yes. it's called "build on push" on the devzone
18:42:51 <andythenorth> I am wondering if I can run it as a web service locally
18:43:24 <Eddi|zuHause> what would be the point of that?
18:44:07 <andythenorth> then I can use grfcodec
18:44:19 <andythenorth> it will be insanely hard to script into a VM from make
18:44:37 <andythenorth> but easy to do it with some web send + load
18:45:14 <Eddi|zuHause> run the whole build in the vm?
18:46:06 <andythenorth> but I’d have to learn linux
18:46:19 <Eddi|zuHause> or just get a useful os that can run it natively
18:46:35 <andythenorth> which linux works?
18:47:19 <Eddi|zuHause> get the vm from devzone?
18:47:44 <andythenorth> planetmaker: how big is VM running bundles?
18:48:43 <__ln__> i kind of noticed once that it's not quite legal to take photos on spanish airports.
18:50:06 <planetmaker> it's currently 30G. Why?
18:50:22 <planetmaker> actually wrong. 80G for the data partition
18:51:06 <andythenorth> I need to move my newgrf dev to a VM, and I am short on space
18:51:42 <planetmaker> andythenorth, the bundles server is the one which *only* servers bundles.o.o. It has nothing to do with building or so
18:51:53 <planetmaker> it's only the disk space
18:52:16 <planetmaker> but... why would you run grfcodec as a web service?
18:52:36 <planetmaker> and yes, with build on push you can use the devzone, that's no issue. It cleans up builds after a time
18:52:46 <planetmaker> it's not a purely black hole
18:53:35 <frosch123> andythenorth: you can use shared folder and run make within the vm while accessing the files on the host machine
18:53:39 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: the quesion he meant to ask was "how big is the VM making the builds"
18:54:27 <planetmaker> 30G would suffice. debian7 + jenkins + various stuff needed for the builds
18:54:52 <planetmaker> you can probably squeeze that in less as it also contains working dirs for the last builds
18:55:10 <planetmaker> thus a checkout of everything it ever built
18:55:21 <planetmaker> in the latest version of it
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18:57:27 * andythenorth looks for smaller VM packages of Debian
18:58:26 <planetmaker> you probably want an image which provides something like openstack or so. As jenkins requires java
18:58:43 <frosch123> planetmaker: andy does not need hudson :p
18:58:54 <frosch123> he only wants a minimal vm with make, grfcodec and nml :)
18:59:10 <planetmaker> then I'd just run grfcodec under wine
18:59:16 <planetmaker> most easy and least overhead
18:59:31 <planetmaker> and compile it with a mingw cross-compiler ;)
18:59:42 <andythenorth> I already have two windows VMs
18:59:56 <andythenorth> but the idea of creating a windows dev newgrf environment makes me sick
19:01:06 <frosch123> planetmaker: you mean running wine within the makefile? :o
19:01:15 <planetmaker> frosch123, no, just wine grfcodec
19:01:41 <planetmaker> though if you want grfcodec in the makefile... yes
19:01:44 <frosch123> well, i assumed andy would run grfcodec via make, but, ok, he actually did not say that
19:02:05 <andythenorth> it would be called from a python script, which make calls
19:02:21 <fonsinchen> What is the problem with running grfcodec on OSX?
19:02:32 <andythenorth> alternatively I rebuild the newgrf to work around the grfcodec failure
19:03:15 <andythenorth> I could run an image processing script to move all the sprites into a single spritesheet
19:05:04 <fonsinchen> What about debugging grfcodec?
19:05:23 <fonsinchen> Should be less work than setting up openstack or something similarly silly ...
19:07:02 <andythenorth> I could try building gcc on OS X
19:07:09 <andythenorth> and then compiling with gcc
19:08:20 <fonsinchen> OSX has that very nice lldb debugger. You don't need gcc to produce debuggable binaries
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19:10:11 * andythenorth has never used a debugger
19:10:17 <andythenorth> except the flash one which was slow
19:10:26 <andythenorth> so I ignored it and wrote my own
19:10:32 <andythenorth> I opened pdb once
19:10:39 <andythenorth> what do I need to do?
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19:11:42 <fonsinchen> run <grfcodec options>
19:11:55 <fonsinchen> look at grfcodec source and try to figure out where it fails
19:12:23 <fonsinchen> set breakpoints with (probably) "b <file>:<line>"
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19:12:51 <fonsinchen> "p <something>" should print current values of variables
19:13:28 <fonsinchen> do "run" just by itself and see what it says
19:13:58 <fonsinchen> Do you know what a breakpoint does?
19:14:05 <andythenorth> only approximately
19:14:25 <andythenorth> in flash you set them in the ui, then inspect variables at that point
19:14:54 <fonsinchen> it stops execution of the program as soon as it hits the point where you set the breakpoint.
19:15:21 <fonsinchen> With raw lldb you have to set them by file/line
19:15:34 <fonsinchen> then you can inspect variables when the breakpoint hits
19:15:38 <andythenorth> it’s funny, I have been programming since I was 7 (29 years), but I am so ham-fisted :)
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19:16:01 <fonsinchen> With "c" you should be able to continue execution
19:16:29 <fonsinchen> (this is all assuming that lldb commands are the same as gdb commands, which is mostly true, but not always...)
19:17:53 <andythenorth> I set the breakpoints in source and then compile?
19:18:06 <fonsinchen> you don't need to compile
19:18:16 <fonsinchen> just do "b xyz.c:50" in lldb
19:18:35 <fonsinchen> then "run" or "c", depending on if the program is stopped or hasn't been started, yet
19:18:54 <fonsinchen> You can always do CTRL-C to interrupt it
19:19:16 <fonsinchen> (but grfcodec is probably not such a long-running thing)
19:19:37 <Rubidium> I'd run the whole thing through valgrind first ;)
19:20:07 <fonsinchen> Actually, I'd make sure it's compiled with -g first
19:20:42 <fonsinchen> The last time I used grfcodec someone was making a point of compressing it to the smallest size possible, even using a binary compressor
19:21:03 <fonsinchen> Without debug symbols debugging is no fun
19:21:38 <fonsinchen> Running it through valgrind will be part of a different lesson
19:22:57 * andythenorth is an expert in debugging with epic print statements :P
19:23:09 <peter1139> Overwhelming urge to put down "emacs" after my opponent played "vim" in Scrabble...
19:23:31 <andythenorth> surely it’s valid?
19:23:50 <frosch123> peter1139: invalid, before you can put down "vim" you first have to discard an "i"
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19:27:36 <toobored> they are all suppliers in the same chain :D
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19:28:48 <planetmaker> toobored, what idea should we have?
19:29:36 <toobored> how to setup the service :(
19:30:30 <Alberth> lay tracks, add, station, build depot, build train, give orders
19:31:23 <toobored> yeah yeah. but these are five industries and I was thinking to setup buses, transfer to huge station, ... , $$$
19:32:03 <frosch123> you can use firs trams to supply to a central station
19:32:27 <frosch123> but if they have > 200 t/month production, it's better to use trains directly
19:32:45 <frosch123> if they have > 2k/month production, it's better to use ships though :p
19:33:26 <andythenorth> I don’t _recall_ intending to troll oztrans with grfids
19:33:35 <andythenorth> I usually remember when I wanted to troll someone
19:33:50 <andythenorth> have I done a bad?
19:34:46 <andythenorth> only that I wouldn’t intentionally block a known newgrf by taking it’s grfid
19:34:46 <toobored> frosch123: they'll reach 1k/m I think
19:34:59 <planetmaker> andythenorth, you did not do that.
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19:35:36 <planetmaker> you simply ran into his view that he owns CA**
19:35:41 <planetmaker> whether in use or not
19:36:02 <planetmaker> a range he actually declared discontinued to be used
19:37:02 <andythenorth> apparently Road Hog overlaps Canadian Stations 1.6
19:37:19 <andythenorth> ¿ also what was the joke with "CA\12\1E"
19:39:27 <planetmaker> the grfIDs are different
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19:47:04 <andythenorth> frosch123: so any clues what I should be debugging for?
19:49:01 <andythenorth> I assume I start by looking for the error string
19:49:52 <frosch123> i guess start from where the png file is opened
19:50:03 <frosch123> and then check the values libpng returns
19:50:08 <frosch123> like image dimesions and stuff
19:50:44 <frosch123> you could also shorten the input grf, so it only processes the sprites with the whitespace warning and does not reach those causing the abort
19:50:56 <frosch123> then you could check what it actually extracted and maybe guess what goes wrong
19:51:17 <andythenorth> the whitespace warning is spurious imho
19:51:31 <andythenorth> it’s caused by me trying to ‘fix’ the out of bounds issue
19:51:45 <andythenorth> although also maybe not
19:52:35 <frosch123> still, apparently it processes some sprites
19:52:46 <frosch123> so, if you shorten the grf, so it actually finishes
19:52:58 <frosch123> you could check whether it actually encodes the start correctly
19:53:02 <andythenorth> or rather, if I only reference one spritesheet
19:53:29 <andythenorth> Road Hog encodes fine: one spritesheet per action 3
19:53:41 <andythenorth> Iron Horse uses two different spritesheets per action 3 and bails
19:53:48 <andythenorth> dunno about Snail and DanDan’s grfs though
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19:56:02 <frosch123> well, if one png works, then add a single sprite from another png
19:56:06 <frosch123> and hope that one still finishes
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20:03:01 <andythenorth> I’ll need to make a test grf
20:04:16 <DorpsGek> Commit by planetmaker :: r26656 trunk/src/industry_gui.cpp (2014-06-20 20:04:10 UTC)
20:04:17 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6044]: Production cheat cannot not be allowed to be active in multiplayer for desync reasons, even when activated in singleplayer previously
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20:08:48 <Pikka> andythenorth: do you not have a standard first-two-bytes-of-grfid you use?
20:09:00 <andythenorth> Pikka: not so much
20:09:18 <andythenorth> I just ask here until someone provides some form of bad joke
20:10:12 <planetmaker> tempest in a teapot :)
20:10:28 <andythenorth> woe is andythenorth
20:10:32 <andythenorth> grfcodec is broken on os x
20:10:44 <Pikka> isn't it always, with OzTrans & co?
20:11:06 <Rubidium> andythenorth: F09F908E might be a nice GRF ID for Iron Horse as well
20:11:45 <andythenorth> CHIPS also broken for me
20:12:15 <andythenorth> HEQS also, for different reasons
20:12:46 <Pikka> what did you do to grfcodec?
20:12:55 <planetmaker> keep debugging :)
20:13:14 <andythenorth> not too bothered about HEQS tbh
20:13:24 <Pikka> no-one else uses os x? wasn't openttd for os x broken for a while?
20:13:33 <Pikka> due to lack of testers?
20:13:43 <planetmaker> that looks very sad, andythenorth :(
20:13:51 <andythenorth> I just kept on using the broken version :P
20:14:03 <planetmaker> is heqs really nfo? :)
20:14:27 <andythenorth> Pikka: have you tried the Hog?
20:14:45 <Pikka> not lately I don't think
20:15:00 <Pikka> I've been busy not working on av10
20:15:18 <andythenorth> very time consuming that
20:15:28 <andythenorth> it takes a lot of effort to not work on a grf
20:15:48 <Pikka> it does, you have to do a lot of browsing the internet and watching tv
20:16:52 * Pikka has exactly 1 month until uni starts, maybe I should try and get av10 done in that time
20:16:53 <andythenorth> have you graduated yet?
20:17:01 <andythenorth> oh, you just started :P
20:18:21 <andythenorth> can we delete drive-in roadstops?
20:18:40 <Pikka> no, only drive-through ones
20:19:09 <andythenorth> can I pick up mail at pax stops?
20:19:19 <andythenorth> splitting the bus / truck stations is a bad feature
20:19:25 <Pikka> sure, just change the cargo classes
20:19:30 <Pikka> what's the worst that can happen?
20:19:48 <andythenorth> actually, not a lot :P
20:20:36 <Pikka> in order to make av10 less appealing, I got rid of the concorde
20:21:39 <Pikka> there is also no jumbo-sized plane until 2015, most of the planes are around 100 passenger size, and none of the jets can use small airports
20:22:32 <andythenorth> small airports are the best
20:22:35 <andythenorth> the only kind to use
20:22:38 <Pikka> on the plus side, there's only 4 jets
20:23:24 <Pikka> small airports are the best, but so are non-jets.
20:24:34 <Pikka> I should start a forum poll about autorefitting, but first I need to make a plane to show off. :/
20:25:22 <frosch123> we renamed it to station-refitting
20:26:08 <Pikka> andythenorth, where is current hog?
20:27:05 <andythenorth> you spend a long time waiting for new vehicles
20:27:20 <Pikka> and then 26 come along at once?
20:28:03 <andythenorth> RVs are crappy until the 50s
20:28:10 <andythenorth> but not so crappy you won’t use them
20:28:29 <andythenorth> graphics are ‘provisional’ in most cases :P
20:33:36 <peter1139> andythenorth is 'provisional' in most cases
20:33:43 <peter1139> sorry, ‘provisional’
20:34:31 <andythenorth> is that a provisional commen?
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20:38:25 <Eddi|zuHause> nothing is more permanent than the povisional
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20:40:41 <andythenorth> can you be provisionally dead?
20:44:39 <andythenorth> fonsinchen: in April you pointed me to your cdist repo + gave me patches to test waybill, I’m still playing that patched version…
20:44:48 <andythenorth> should I remove the patch and update to head yet?
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20:45:11 <fonsinchen> I think we decided not to put the waybill thing in
20:45:28 <fonsinchen> With the other fixes I did it doesn't add much over asymmetric anymore
20:46:24 <andythenorth> so I should start the next game with asymmetric
20:46:34 <andythenorth> from ottd repo, or yours?
20:46:41 <andythenorth> do you have other fixes needing tested?
20:47:45 <fonsinchen> Just use openttd master
20:48:00 <fonsinchen> Nothing spectacular in my repo at the moment
20:49:06 <fonsinchen> Oh, and tell me if you think that waybill was better than asymetric ...
20:50:38 <andythenorth> waybill seems to work fine for simple routes
20:50:52 <andythenorth> it stumbles with long complex feeder chains
20:51:03 <andythenorth> I get a lot of cargo waiting that I just can’t clear
20:51:23 <andythenorth> otherwise works as expected
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20:57:38 <DorpsGek> Commit by planetmaker :: r26657 /trunk/src (60 files in 3 dirs) (2014-06-20 20:57:32 UTC)
20:57:39 <DorpsGek> -Add [FS#6047]: Days in dates are not represented by ordinal numbers in all languages
21:01:42 <Eddi|zuHause> what do they use instead?
21:01:51 <Eddi|zuHause> regular numbers?
21:02:25 <frosch123> "january one" instead of "january first"
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21:17:21 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26658 /trunk/src/lang (61 files in 2 dirs) (2014-06-20 21:17:15 UTC)
21:17:22 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
21:17:23 <DorpsGek> estonian - 1 changes by
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21:37:48 <frosch123> looking for new grfids? :)
21:38:06 <frosch123> pipes do not really steam though
21:39:26 <andythenorth> I just created a signalled pipeline
21:40:05 <planetmaker> I see a clear road to my bed though. Tempting to take
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22:22:57 <luaduck> is there some super magic way to get openttd to autoload the last autosave on start?
22:26:52 <FLHerne> luaduck: Bash script to select the most recently-saved one, maybe?
22:27:47 <FLHerne> I don't know of a clever built-in switch, but I haven't done much with a server for ages
22:30:34 <FLHerne> Hmm, openttd -g `ls -t1 ~/.openttd/save/autosave | head -n1` does seem to work
22:33:33 <FLHerne> Not well though, working dir is wrong unless you're actually in the autosave dir. But whatever.
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22:39:20 <FLHerne> One Google later, 'openttd -g `ls -dt1 ~/.openttd/save/autosave/* | head -n1`' works. I should remember these things :-(
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