IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-06-15
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00:03:51 <Supercheese> Oof, poor English
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07:13:11 <LSky`> did 1.4.1 introduce a desync issue?
07:13:19 <LSky`> i never had those on vanilla openttd
07:19:21 <Alberth> no idea, have a look at the bug tracker
07:23:12 <peter1139> Never? Plenty of older versions had them :D
07:25:36 <Alberth> indeed, it is quite safe to assume they exist, the question is whether you run into them
07:36:52 <planetmaker> LSky`, OpenTTD 1.4.1 is also a version of vanilla OpenTTD :). Yet I'd think introducing a new desync in 1.4.1 is unlikely
07:37:05 <planetmaker> but there may of course lurk unfound ones
07:45:35 * V453000 did not make trains change cargo capacity on the go :P
07:48:11 <LSky`> planetmaker, i know its vanilla ^^
07:48:17 <LSky`> hence my surprise when I desynced twice
07:48:49 <LSky`> [09:14] <Server1> *** LSky has left the game (desync error)
07:48:50 <LSky`> [09:14] <Server1> *** Player #1 has left the game (desync error)
07:48:51 <LSky`> [09:34] <Server1> *** Teoandre has left the game (desync error)
07:48:51 <LSky`> [09:34] <Server1> *** Player #1 has left the game (desync error)
07:48:51 <LSky`> [09:35] <Server1> *** Player #1 has left the game (desync error)
07:48:51 <LSky`> [09:36] <Server1> *** Player #1 has left the game (desync error)
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07:53:55 <Alberth> desyncs happen because game state between client and server is different
07:54:19 <Alberth> giving command texts through whatever means is not yet game state
07:54:40 <LSky`> the commands arent even being given
07:55:04 <LSky`> but enabling those commands is the only recent change the server underwent, other than the 1.4.1 update
07:55:27 <Alberth> it's not in the core of the program
07:56:42 <LSky`> theres one bug report on desyncs, from yesterday
07:56:53 <LSky`> but that seems to have a different cause
08:12:19 <planetmaker> you mean the tcl script thingy?
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08:13:35 <planetmaker> lol, 6044 is nice :)
08:13:52 <planetmaker> anyway, gotta go. see you in the evening. Have fun :)
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09:25:31 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: topic [<channel>]
09:25:44 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: topic [<channel>]
09:25:53 <TrueBrain> I hate this IRC bot :P Useless piece of crap :(
09:25:56 <DorpsGek> V453000: Don't ask to ask, just ask
09:26:19 <cookins> concerned about gameplay
09:29:08 <TrueBrain> where is the fun in that V453000 :D
09:29:12 <TrueBrain> he is building up to it
09:29:18 <TrueBrain> maybe he throws in a cookie in a moment
09:29:24 <TrueBrain> possible amazon cookies
09:29:26 <cookins> i transporting oil from sea side to surface to dock; from dock oil truckers loading it and unload to cargo side that receives oil (that was typed when i built it there)
09:30:58 <cookins> so oil not take to oil factory that makes items for city, from that cargo side where i unload oil
09:32:15 <cookins> it stays there, but there said it receiving it (oil)
09:33:04 <Alberth> don't use "transfer" at the final destination
09:33:10 <V453000> and you are sure your orders are on unload and leave empty, not transfer and leave empty
09:33:19 <cookins> why it not going directly to factory like every thing.?
09:33:41 <Alberth> transfer means "unload here for further transport"
09:34:08 <cookins> if not transfer than it unload and loads again and going back
09:34:09 <Alberth> and yes, you do want to be able to do that even with a factory right next to it that could also accept the cargo
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09:35:33 <cookins> damn i crashed. who answer me?
09:35:54 <cookins> so it loading it back then if not transfer
09:36:11 <Alberth> you can check there exactly :)
09:42:25 <V453000> are you 100% sure that the oil refinery is inside the catchment area of the station?
09:46:35 <V453000> the mystery shall remain undiscovered
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13:07:28 <toobored> is it possible to get a ro-ro terminus stations with a 90-bend?
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13:45:56 <chelsea> try thys one WWW.SoccerTips4Sure.com it is the first time when i win some money
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14:13:42 <Alberth> toobored: ro-ro terminus?
14:53:47 <planetmaker> thanks :) Seems driving a motor vessel is different than sailing :P
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15:02:50 <Alberth> depends on the amount of moving air :)
15:04:18 <Alberth> <module 'lex' from './lex.cpython-33m.so'>
15:05:26 <Alberth> now figure out what the module should actually do :p
15:07:06 <Eddi|zuHause> the lexer lexes, obviously
15:07:35 <Eddi|zuHause> basically you feed the lexer regexpses and it throws out tokens
15:07:36 <Alberth> I wrote this one, so it doesn't yet :)
15:09:08 <toobored> Alberth: hahaha silly contradiction. it just means a terminus stations without the trains exiting blocking the trains entering
15:10:34 <planetmaker> that's possible. but I still don't get your 90° bend there, toobored
15:11:24 <toobored> planetmaker: had a town grown too much around a station and I cannot get the lines and the station in the same straight line :(
15:12:02 <toobored> actually it was bad design... not that the city grew
15:12:08 <toobored> let me get a pic of what I did at the end
15:17:35 <planetmaker> There's plenty of space
15:17:43 <planetmaker> but I'd make it a roro turned 90°
15:17:54 <planetmaker> and giving the space currently covered by the station to the town
15:18:15 <planetmaker> and building the station there where the road bridge currently spans the rails
15:18:26 <toobored> roro meaning having the trains leave at the other end?
15:18:43 <planetmaker> a station where trains can path through. both ways
15:18:58 <planetmaker> at least you want both way traffic in this case, I think
15:19:41 <toobored> the first 4-5 tracks connect to a station on the left side, the other 2-3 tracks connect on another heavytraffic station on the right.
15:20:55 <planetmaker> omg, that's two stations?!
15:21:32 <toobored> the one you see is ONE. but it connects to two stations.
15:21:52 <planetmaker> anyway, you want the station for the trains coming from the South-East (lower left) such that there's no turn for them
15:22:29 <toobored> yeah. so i have to change orientation
15:22:30 <planetmaker> with that trainlength you can't make a sensible 90° turn in that space
15:24:21 <toobored> (given that I considered that my 'good design')
15:27:51 <planetmaker> well, not embarassing. What I say is towards how *I* would build and consider an efficient, nice network by my standards. By other standards (and OpenTTD allows for a HUGE amount of different ones), it certainly works
15:28:13 <planetmaker> and if you really want, one can make something with the existing station tracks. Not pretty IMHO, but would work somewhat
15:28:20 <planetmaker> it also depends on the expected traffic
15:28:44 <toobored> 5k pax per month from each direction :P
15:29:57 <toobored> I'll start again this specific game to get better designs, I got pretty rushy at some point and wasn't thinking things over
15:31:21 <planetmaker> rather in trains :) And no point to restart a specific game IMHO. Just rebuild the existing tracks
15:31:38 <planetmaker> for me that would be more fun than starting from scratch. An evolved map offers more challenges
15:32:18 <toobored> I have many routes that need .... 'redesign'
15:32:32 <planetmaker> toobored, well, good :) Much fun ahead then! :)
15:32:44 <planetmaker> did you ever play on one of the openttdcoop servers?
15:34:18 <toobored> i'm planning on it but openttd it's just a good break from vector analysis
15:35:03 <planetmaker> but you sound like you would enjoy building there and find similar-minded people there :)
15:35:18 <toobored> yeah but I'm a very bad player
15:35:28 <toobored> don't want to ruin a map :P
15:35:46 <planetmaker> one can only improve by practise :P And there's the welcome aka stable server where people can just experiment
15:35:59 <planetmaker> but you'll get feedback and you can cooperate...
15:36:37 <Alberth> and the best thing, people work together, so you don't need to do all yourself :)
15:38:08 <planetmaker> you're fast, Alberth :)
15:38:42 <toobored> Alberth: hehe correct.
15:38:57 <Alberth> this was the easy part, just define a few patterns, throw it in the generator, add a wrapper, et voila :)
15:38:57 <toobored> btw, I tried to check if it was easy to change some things in 2cc trainset...
15:39:17 <toobored> my god NFO..... what a brainfuck
15:39:41 <planetmaker> there's 2ccts in NML being coded currently
15:39:47 <Alberth> planetmaker: it doesn't do line or column counting, or minor stuff like returning the identifier or numeric value :)
15:41:03 <V453000> dont worry about ruining anything, to start with you can play in your own company on openttdcoop welcome server, and if you listen to what people tell you, you get to build well very quickly :)
15:42:14 <toobored> i haven't undestood one thing yet....
15:42:28 <toobored> how time 'passes' on the server?
15:42:34 <toobored> everyone logs off and things still move?
15:42:41 <V453000> on intelligent servers no
15:42:49 <V453000> if 1 person is there, it unpauses
15:42:58 <planetmaker> Alberth, I guess line counting is mostly trivial
15:43:18 <Alberth> planetmaker: yeah, until you get #line crap :p
15:43:19 <toobored> V453000: makes sense.
15:43:39 <planetmaker> and if you've lex'ed it, outputting the ID in the same array might not be too difficult either?
15:43:44 <Alberth> but no worries I was not going to code that in C :)
15:44:34 <planetmaker> I've seen worse, toobored
15:44:49 <Alberth> planetmaker: true, it's mostly a matter of adding it
15:45:17 <toobored> Alberth: what's wrong with C?
15:45:19 <planetmaker> Alberth, well, not C? C++? Or you rather mean splitting lexer and compiler?
15:45:45 <Alberth> toobored: too much detail if you can also do it in Python :)
15:45:50 <planetmaker> toobored, nothing. But it's not the solution for everything
15:46:05 <V453000> toobored: that isnt so bad, you can work from that
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15:48:19 <Alberth> planetmaker: there is a stack of filenames encountered in #line directives, which gets updated and copied quite often in the current scanner. I don't want to code a stack of file+line information in C such that Python can access it
15:49:02 <Alberth> better let python handle the entire stack on its own
15:49:11 <planetmaker> aye, ok. Makes sense
15:50:30 <toobored> Alberth: I found python after a couple of projects inefficient. (thread implementation in specific)
15:50:56 <Alberth> toobored: threads are usually the wrong solution for a problem
15:51:14 <Alberth> and yes, Python has a GIL, veryy effective at killing htreads
15:51:40 <toobored> that. plus I had a problem with the clock functions :(
15:51:51 <toobored> they are not guarenteed to be monotonic
15:52:22 <Alberth> they are just system clocks, afaik
15:54:20 <Alberth> ah right, I don't do that stuff, I normally just run computations
15:56:28 <toobored> yeah for simple stuff it's pretty much ok.
15:57:14 <toobored> although complex project tend to collapse on their own in pretty much every lang
15:58:20 <toobored> either that or i'm slow/stupid and not able to comprehend the beauty of complexity
15:59:22 <Alberth> there is a difference between complex and big :)
15:59:44 <planetmaker> there's also a difference between necessary complexity and 'boiler plate' complexity
15:59:50 <Alberth> the former you want to avoid, the latter is not much of a problem, it just takes more work
15:59:53 <planetmaker> or however one may call the latter
16:00:24 <Alberth> most people call something "complex" when they do not understand it
16:00:45 <planetmaker> and mathematicians anything which once was proven trivial :P
16:00:47 <Alberth> as such "complex" is not a system property, but a view of the person saying it
16:01:12 <Alberth> indeed, a system that you understand is never ever complex
16:01:19 <toobored> Alberth: if I see the same thing being done with two different ways on two different files, it's complex :P
16:01:49 <planetmaker> Indeed depends on the person. And how long it takes them to understand a thing from scratch
16:04:18 <Alberth> usually, the best way to understand code is to understand the problem it solves. That normally explains why weird steps are performed in code
16:04:40 <Alberth> code is very good at saying what it does, but not in why :)
16:05:27 <planetmaker> it gets hairy if it shall solve A, but solves A' instead :P
16:06:08 <planetmaker> but where A' == A in 99% of the cases ;)
16:06:18 <planetmaker> especially the trivial test cases :P
16:06:27 <Alberth> the devil is always in the details :p
16:07:21 <Alberth> hmm, let me see what dinner I shall have tonight
16:07:50 * planetmaker had potatoe salad. A left-over from earlier BBQ
16:09:29 * V453000 had nothing and his future is unsure
16:15:20 <V453000> I might eat some uranium soon because making teh material is pita major
16:19:40 <toobored> V453000: for which set?
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16:22:11 <V453000> make sure you check out the previews :)
16:31:19 <V453000> sufficient for uranium?
16:31:37 <Rubidium> uranium ore maybe ;)
16:32:11 <V453000> I go feed it to my 1 forum follower :D
16:32:34 <Rubidium> the colors seem to match some uranium ores
16:33:03 <Alberth> you dropped the grey idea of coal?
16:33:20 <V453000> uranium was the aim Alberth, but desaturating it was easy quick coal :D :P
16:33:35 <V453000> yeah that is pretty much what I went from Rubidium
16:33:48 <V453000> see, I had REAL example
16:34:56 <Alberth> I find the green environment a bit too green for a mine, tbh
16:35:41 <V453000> uranium boosts local flora
16:36:03 <planetmaker> mutant giant grass. Beware of its sharp teeth
16:36:03 <V453000> in fact, no other industry has any trees around it as of now :D
16:38:22 <Alberth> they should install a railgun in the shaft, and launch the uranium vertically in the air :p
16:39:04 <Alberth> but it would defeat the need for a car probably
16:41:37 * Alberth ponders the option of launching the car with uranium on it
16:43:52 <V453000> car will be driven by YETI later, that will explain everything
16:44:05 <Rubidium> don't think it would do much harm with raw uranium ore
16:44:25 <planetmaker> as long as you wear a breathing mask
16:44:29 <Rubidium> apparantly it's 500 times as abundant as gold
16:44:57 <Rubidium> so... I'd reckon there to be natural deposits of those ores at the surface already
16:44:58 <Alberth> 500 times almost nothing is still nothing :)
16:45:24 <Rubidium> true, but then you're made of effectively nothing either ;)
16:45:25 <planetmaker> and the breathing mask only as the harm of decay when inside the lung is much bigger
16:45:59 <Alberth> it's chemically not very nice stuff to have on the surface
16:46:43 <planetmaker> oh, doesn't matter really
16:47:11 <planetmaker> any clothing will stop the harm from uranium alpha decay
16:48:41 <V453000> I hereby declare I deserve dinner now
16:48:58 <Alberth> sounds very right V :)
16:50:43 <V453000> only 3 industries entirely missing, 2 to be strongly enhanced and one to be redone completely
16:51:58 <Alberth> 10 already? wow, so quickly
16:52:25 <V453000> yeah, and one of them (the 3-X machinery factory) took 3 weeks alone
16:52:35 <V453000> the rest was muuuuch quicker
16:53:20 <V453000> the clay pit will be completely different, animal farm needs animals finished (have some started), grain farm needs grain :)
16:53:57 <Alberth> you bring grain to let it produce grain :)
16:54:10 <V453000> no you bring yetis and machinery :P
16:54:21 <V453000> decaying bodies and cars turn into grain, obvioz
16:56:03 <V453000> ... they arent retards at the farm and dont output 100%, they keep some seeds for reproduction :P
16:56:08 <V453000> they just dont officially admit it
16:58:35 <Alberth> I guess all inspectors suddenly vanish
17:02:07 <V453000> yetis eat the inspectors, industry doesnt produce without yetis -> no inspectors ever
17:03:07 <Alberth> hmm, it's much more complicated than anticipated :)
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17:39:31 <toobored> workers and cargo dist will be intresting :)
17:40:22 <V453000> cargodist is utterly retarded and i dont suggest using it with yeti industries :)
17:41:06 <toobored> hahahahaha. I pretty much like it.
17:41:16 <toobored> I love the unpredictability
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17:45:49 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26648 /trunk/src/lang (czech.txt estonian.txt) (2014-06-15 17:45:41 UTC)
17:45:50 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:51 <DorpsGek> czech - 1 changes by Eskymak
17:45:52 <DorpsGek> estonian - 5 changes by taavi
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18:57:25 <toobored> mass change service interval?
18:57:31 <toobored> (for train group etc)
18:59:03 <frosch123> use sheduled servicing via orders, instead of intervals :)
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