IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-06-16
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08:27:09 <Bugra> can i ask you something
08:27:42 <planetmaker> dunno. You could just try
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08:28:37 <planetmaker> V453000, you can't decide that ;) You can only decide on the answers :P
08:28:50 <Bugra> i was created dedicated server. but it is create on default settings. I search on internet how can i set settings, but i can found only few settings console command.
08:28:50 <planetmaker> unless you're the same person :P
08:29:06 <planetmaker> Bugra, there's an openttd.cfg
08:29:22 <planetmaker> those settings will be used for newly automatically created maps
08:29:33 <V453000> planetmaker: I can say NO regardless of the question, saying YES is however indeed relative to the aquestion P
08:29:38 <planetmaker> or you upload savegames to the server. Then the settings they're created with will be used
08:30:12 <Bugra> hmm, savegame.. is good. i ll try
08:30:29 <planetmaker> it's actually the way we at openttdcoop handle things
08:31:04 <planetmaker> if you want a server with a certain 'scenario' and always the same settings, fixing your openttd.cfg might be the better choice, though
08:32:34 <Bugra> ok i ll try. but ask you 1 more.
08:33:04 <Bugra> is biggest server company using speciel script ?
08:33:23 <Bugra> like "!cv" is not working my server
08:33:46 <Xaroth|Work> because that's not in a 'standard' server :)
08:36:52 <planetmaker> what's the "biggest server company"? :)
08:37:05 <planetmaker> and yes, people can use custom scripts, some also use a modified openttd even as server
08:37:23 <Bugra> i think bt.pro.nl etc..
08:37:46 <Bugra> hmm, where can i find some scripts?
08:37:47 <planetmaker> they probably use everything... modified openttd server, game scripts and admin port
08:38:06 <planetmaker> at coop we just use soap as admin port client
08:38:37 <planetmaker> it's a supybot plug-in to allow administration via IRC and offers some additional commands
08:38:44 <planetmaker> written in python
08:39:01 <planetmaker> I'm pretty sure that bt's stuff is not available
08:40:08 <Bugra> ok thank you, so do you speak turkish? who translate to turkish?
08:40:28 <Bugra> i like translation. is perfect
08:40:40 <planetmaker> some translators do
08:41:07 <planetmaker> so people can conveniently translate
08:41:57 <planetmaker> glad to hear that our Turkish translators do a good job :)
08:42:33 <Bugra> :) ok thank you & bye bye
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09:12:06 <toobored> planetmaker: is translator.openttd.org based on anything or just a custom web app?
09:12:32 <planetmaker> custom web application
09:12:49 <planetmaker> translator.openttdcoop.org is another. But that's open source
09:13:01 <planetmaker> and it's the spiritual successor to it
09:14:09 <planetmaker> but both are written by "our" developers
09:14:59 <planetmaker> written in python
09:15:14 <toobored> nice :) I'm asking cause a friend of mine owns the company behind transifex
09:15:23 <toobored> another open source popular tool for translations
09:16:23 <toobored> or at least it used to be open source...
09:16:52 <planetmaker> doesn't look particularily open source to me
09:18:20 <toobored> yeah they went cloud
09:23:04 <planetmaker> seems to be the way with a number of good OOS products. Similar to rhodecode which now has a strange license
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11:44:33 <Eddi|zuHause> why do i bother reporting posts being in the wrong forum when then no moderator moves it?
11:45:22 <__ln__> because you're an idealist?
11:49:02 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, because the posting alone does not allow the conclusion you draw
11:49:52 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i sat before it 5 minutes trying to make sense out of it, then i looked at other posts the user has made.
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11:53:01 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause2, I agree that it *likely* is the wrong forum. But not sure... so I'm actually waiting for that user to himself to say so
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14:18:09 <andythenorth> want to make a partial newgrf compile
14:21:45 * andythenorth wonders what grfcodec will do with multiple fragments of nfo, concatenated to one file
14:21:52 * andythenorth suspects it will barf on sprite numbers
14:24:15 <andythenorth> is renum still a thing? o_O
14:26:33 <Eddi|zuHause> no, it's called nforenum for like 5 years now
14:26:36 <planetmaker> hi andythenorth :)
14:27:03 <planetmaker> andythenorth, grfcodec will not care about sprite numbers
14:27:19 <Eddi|zuHause> it's part of grfcodec, anyway
14:27:44 <Eddi|zuHause> and grfcodec will probably complain, but process it anyway
14:27:57 <planetmaker> andythenorth, you should definitely talk to alberth and frosch and what's possibly hiding somewhere on their disks. Dunno
14:29:28 <planetmaker> I think it might be useful. Dunno. I haven't looked at their disks either
14:29:58 <planetmaker> but I think it's a thing they like to see addressed, too. So no need to invent three implementations :)
14:30:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think anything is in a remotely finished state on their disks
14:30:49 <planetmaker> I don't think that either. Nor do I believe it is on andy's disk
14:31:12 <andythenorth> I have some finished notes :P
14:31:21 <planetmaker> hence this is the time where coordination might prove useful. In comparing notes :P
14:32:23 <andythenorth> I’m trying to make a stupid version to teach myself
14:32:32 <andythenorth> it involves passing around missing constants using simple json
14:32:42 <andythenorth> it’s not a proper linker
14:33:29 <planetmaker> some part, the one which eats time
14:33:56 <andythenorth> how is that being done? standalone c app, or some kind of c extension to python?
14:34:12 <planetmaker> it's a c extension to python
14:35:26 <planetmaker> anyway, it's a different topic than partial compiles
14:36:00 <andythenorth> although it might be so much faster that partial compiles are moot
14:36:48 <planetmaker> interesting tid-bit is also that FIRS is by far the biggest NewGRF project in terms of LOC
14:37:09 <planetmaker> more LOC than OpenTTD itself ;)
14:37:57 <planetmaker> yes, the pre-processed NML
14:38:01 <planetmaker> short of 400k or so
14:38:05 <andythenorth> did you strip pointless whitespace? :)
14:39:09 <planetmaker> it's still a 13M nml text file as input
14:39:25 <planetmaker> so partial compiles - whatever language - might prove useful there
14:39:36 * andythenorth learns about header files in c++
14:39:47 <andythenorth> so the c++ compilers aren’t magic?
14:39:54 <andythenorth> you actually have to declare classes and constants and stuff?
14:41:34 <andythenorth> so my idea of passing stuff to nmlc using something like a constants file
14:44:50 <andythenorth> strings are the puzzle afaict
14:45:14 <andythenorth> I can’t figure out if putting them into numeric constants should work or not
14:49:00 * andythenorth also wonders if FIRS spritelayouts are staggeringly inefficient
14:51:07 <andythenorth> planetmaker: if I strip duplicates, FIRS LOC drops from 380k to 65k
14:51:29 <planetmaker> what kind of duplicates? Like } and { ?
14:51:39 <planetmaker> but each is functional :)
14:51:44 <andythenorth> duplicate lines, it’s a text wrangler feature
14:51:51 <andythenorth> I don’t know it if breaks the compile
14:52:00 <andythenorth> there’s a lot of GPL notice repetition :)
14:53:22 <andythenorth> if I could be bothered, those could go into chameleon comments and get dropped
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16:32:06 <slaca> could anyone give me a link to download tahoma bold font?
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16:53:57 <andythenorth> you should read the log :P
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16:55:13 <andythenorth> works, incomplete
16:57:54 <Eddi|zuHause> ... and people thought my approach was the wrong way...
17:01:16 <Alberth> no worries, I still think adding comment support to nml to have a cutting point is the wrong solution :)
17:03:00 <frosch123> andy is quite a magician
17:03:08 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: are you actually going to write any code to fetch all the constants? o_O
17:03:20 <frosch123> he can summon people at will and jinxed a former train game player into a drawing machine
17:03:53 <frosch123> do you think he drank too much beer?
17:04:03 <andythenorth> are we talking about V?
17:04:19 <Eddi|zuHause> what do you mean "am i going to write code"?
17:04:40 <andythenorth> I mean, do you have a solution to getting the constants?
17:04:52 <Eddi|zuHause> you have a code generator?
17:04:58 <andythenorth> I can only think of (1) walk the entire codebase on every compile or (2) pass the constants in
17:05:39 <andythenorth> I don’t like this json route, seems janky
17:07:57 <Eddi|zuHause> you need to make a mapping of nml-string-names to nfo-string-ids, and filter out ones that do not need any id
17:08:12 <Eddi|zuHause> then you store/cache that somewhere
17:08:35 <Eddi|zuHause> to build the cache, you need the entire code base
17:08:57 <Eddi|zuHause> you can only make partial compiles when the cache is valid
17:09:01 <andythenorth> and how to invalidate the cache?
17:09:23 <Eddi|zuHause> by modification date, like all make stuff?
17:09:28 <andythenorth> mapping of which constants are in which file?
17:09:43 <Eddi|zuHause> in a file of your chosing
17:09:58 <andythenorth> and how to pass that to nmlc?
17:10:26 <Eddi|zuHause> parameter? default name? nmlc has image caches and stuff
17:11:06 <andythenorth> right, so that’s what I’m doing, only backwards
17:11:10 <andythenorth> and I happened to pick json
17:12:26 <Alberth> it's useful for experiments, imho
17:14:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd probably have used pickle, but that's an implementation decision, not a design decision
17:14:01 <andythenorth> I’m kind of stumped on the string stuff
17:14:27 <andythenorth> it’s roughly the same interface tbh
17:14:59 <andythenorth> Alberth: so a faster lexer? o_O
17:16:02 <andythenorth> hmm, I’m not sure which constants it’s safe to pass in
17:16:02 <Alberth> it eats most time for FIRS currently
17:16:39 <andythenorth> maybe I just get this basically working, and someone else finds out what dangerous things I’m introducing :P
17:16:40 <Alberth> scanning a 13MB string in Python is not very nice :)
17:18:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i never got around to making the partial-compile-behaviour of CETS switchable via makefile
17:19:29 <Eddi|zuHause> like, detect whether nmlc supports actionC, and switch to single-file mode automatically
17:20:01 <andythenorth> my patch has an extra-constants parameter now
17:20:16 <andythenorth> there is a wrinkle with paths I guess
17:25:01 <andythenorth> maybe I could pass the path, not the filename
17:25:06 <andythenorth> maybe a constants dir?
17:26:05 <andythenorth> I can’t see how I can write a constants parser to create a cache, without it being as slow as, or slower than the existing parse
17:26:30 <andythenorth> my plan was to write out explicitly the constants I want, because I have a code generator
17:26:36 <andythenorth> but that seems Not Proper
17:40:11 <andythenorth> and if you have an Iron Horse checkout,
17:40:12 <andythenorth> nmlc --extra-constants=extra_constants.json --nfo box_car_brit_gen_1.nfo generated/nml/box_car_brit_gen_2.nml
17:40:31 <andythenorth> I suspect the cargo table could be passed as nml, and then let the nml parser deal with it
17:40:42 <andythenorth> I’m not really sure what the best approach is tbh
17:40:52 <andythenorth> a single constants file is appealing
17:41:05 <andythenorth> but reusing the existing stuff seems more correct
17:45:44 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26649 trunk/src/lang/norwegian_bokmal.txt (2014-06-16 17:45:36 UTC)
17:45:45 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:46 <DorpsGek> estonian - 1 changes by
17:45:47 <DorpsGek> norwegian_bokmal - 29 changes by cuthbert
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18:18:45 <andythenorth> can’t find the cargo table parsing
18:18:48 <andythenorth> I’ll do it in json :P
18:19:25 <Wolf01> mmmh what's all that balloon related stuff I see everywhere? At the shopping mall it seem to be at the museum of soccer
18:21:05 <andythenorth> hmm hg is not git :(
18:28:53 <andythenorth> oh good, I’ve crashed python again :P
18:31:39 <andythenorth> can anyone else get subprocess.call() to work with nmlc?
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18:34:56 <andythenorth> nmlc doesn’t seem to return cleanly
18:36:24 <andythenorth> subprocess.call(['nmlc', '--extra-constants=extra_constants.json', '--nfo box_car_brit_gen_1.nfo generated/nml/box_car_brit_gen_2.nml'])
18:36:35 <andythenorth> but it hangs (waiting for a return I assume)
18:37:17 <andythenorth> actually that was the wrong paste
18:37:44 <andythenorth> subprocess.call(['nmlc', '--extra-constants=extra_constants.json', '--nfo', 'box_car_brit_gen_1.nfo', 'generated/nml/box_car_brit_gen_2.nml'])
18:37:47 <Alberth> '--nfo=box_car_brit_gen_1.nfo' 'generated/...'
18:38:55 <Alberth> something like that should do the trick :)
18:42:13 <Alberth> missing a space happens, after you did that once or twice, you'll remember :)
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18:52:48 <andythenorth> well that would put an end to my battery fast
18:52:56 <andythenorth> running nmlc in a multiprocessing pool :P
18:53:17 <andythenorth> blocks all 4 thread units
19:00:24 <andythenorth> I have a patched nmlc, that makes it harder to do speed tests quickly :P
19:00:31 <andythenorth> can’t compare the baseline
19:01:59 <Alberth> then you can hg diff > p.patch; hg revert
19:02:19 <andythenorth> that’s how I ‘branch’ in hg :)
19:02:49 <Alberth> I tend to do hg clone trunk new_branch :)
19:12:20 <peter1139> git checkout -b new_branch
19:12:32 <peter1139> Because I know how to use branches with the tools I use ;P
19:13:53 <frosch123> are you using a shared .git directory between multiple checkouts, or do you really only have one checkout?
19:14:05 <frosch123> s/checkout/working copy/ or whatever
19:14:24 <peter1139> One checkout, no need for any more.
19:14:56 <peter1139> And loads of old svn checkouts cos... yeah, svn...
19:15:26 <Alberth> svn also has branches and svn switch
19:15:55 <frosch123> well, i consider it quite cumbersome to only use one working tree and switch it between brancehs
19:16:04 <frosch123> i rather have multiple working trees for each branch
19:16:12 <frosch123> independent of svn/git/hg
19:16:55 <Alberth> I usually have 1 working tree for each branch
19:17:09 <frosch123> but ok, at work i also have at most 2 working trees, because i actually finish stuff :p
19:17:39 <Alberth> I think I have 4 atm :)
19:17:48 <frosch123> you only need multiple branches as long as you pretend to be working on them :p
19:17:53 <Alberth> some are blocked on further progress
19:19:45 <Alberth> toobored: created an insanely large platform selection junction?
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19:21:33 <toobored> Alberth: I don't know what I have built and how to call this.. all i want now is a copy-paste-and-mirror button
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19:49:45 <andythenorth> does devzone support git repos?
19:51:49 <planetmaker> theoretically. But it comes without any support. Most notably no translations, no build support. Unless you write that yourself
19:52:09 <andythenorth> I should just learn hg properly
19:52:48 <planetmaker> And I really have no love for maintaining all that for two VCS
19:54:14 <Alberth> fyi, /me is not git-compatible
19:54:58 <planetmaker> I tried. git failed ;)
19:57:08 <Alberth> hmm, 10 o clock, and I only established nmlc doesn't work any more after I demolished its scanner :)
19:57:39 * andythenorth is surprisingly git compatible
19:57:42 <andythenorth> I thought I’d break it a lot
20:03:53 <andythenorth> there’s another way? o_O
20:04:03 <andythenorth> I just tread very carefully
20:04:30 <Alberth> hmm, is there reason to use utf-8 encoding for NML source code?
20:05:49 *** luaduck_zzz is now known as luaduck
20:06:15 <planetmaker> Alberth, strings must be utf8
20:07:54 <Alberth> let's ignore that for a while :)
20:07:58 <planetmaker> or alternatively ascii, if you want to omit the thorn char. But I don't want to go there, into the encoding hell
20:10:26 <toobored> is there any # for game related questions?
20:10:46 <Alberth> I built lex for pure ascii (technically it's 8 bit), and not for unicode
20:10:59 <Alberth> toobored: yes, #openttd usually if it is about openttd
20:11:15 <planetmaker> it's this channel, toobored
20:11:39 <V453000> if you want advanced gameplay, then #openttdcoop
20:11:45 <toobored> a nice. I hate interrupting tech discussions...
20:11:49 <frosch123> Alberth: that's good enough
20:11:57 <frosch123> utf8 is only used in quoted strings, isn't it?
20:12:07 <planetmaker> for lexing that might make no(t much) difference
20:12:08 <frosch123> so, they are preserved in 8 bit ascii
20:12:13 <Alberth> if it is just string literals (ie "...." thingies) a special case can be constructed
20:12:14 <planetmaker> identifiers might look differently
20:12:25 <toobored> V453000: nothing advanced... I just discovered that splitting a track to 3 tracks doesn't work :(
20:12:35 <toobored> the first one never gets selected.
20:13:33 <Alberth> well, you get BOM stuff as well with crappy editors
20:13:57 <Alberth> but for now, I'll just abort on such things :)
20:14:10 <Alberth> let's have a proof of concept first :)
20:14:25 <Alberth> toobored: picture says a 1000 words in such cases
20:14:54 <toobored> the incoming main line splits to 3.
20:15:06 <planetmaker> the subsequent paths are not equal
20:15:24 <V453000> well sure toobored you need to give trains a reason to split :)
20:15:26 <planetmaker> path finder consider the total path to the destination and use shortest
20:15:39 <V453000> if the other paths are still being seen as "not good enough", it will continue use the shortest as pm says
20:15:53 <planetmaker> shortest includes considering other trains, signals, turns, bridges, tunnels, railtypes...
20:15:58 <toobored> it doesn't check if the station is available?
20:16:16 <toobored> or it just computes up to the next signal?
20:16:21 <Alberth> also having so many signals makes things more difficult for the path finder
20:16:54 <Alberth> it looks ahead a bit further but not that much
20:17:00 <planetmaker> it considers the path to the station. but re-computes it at every signal
20:17:09 <toobored> instead of a 1 to 3 to 2 i will try 1 to 2 to 3 configuration
20:17:36 <toobored> I thought that thing about the signals. will reduce them
20:18:41 <planetmaker> Alberth, wrt BOM I recall there had been issues with some editors, earlier. But NML somewhen learnt to ignore those. iirc
20:18:54 <Alberth> aynthing smaller than your bridge-length is mostly useless, I think
20:19:00 <planetmaker> whatever I remember, I don't see that being an issue currently
20:19:27 <Alberth> planetmaker: yep script = script.lstrip(str(codecs.BOM_UTF8, "utf-8"))
20:19:51 <Alberth> but I am trying to remove that 13MB string from being loaded in memory :)
20:20:25 <Alberth> toobored: at the right you seem to have a block size of 1 or 2
20:21:05 <Alberth> amd right next to the water too
20:21:45 <Alberth> it's useless as trains will not be able to follow each other so closely on a bridge
20:22:14 <Alberth> in fact you want the next train to see the previous train so it will pick another platform earlier
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20:23:02 <Alberth> note that path signals do not block access behind the previous train
20:23:33 * andythenorth wonders if nmlc will pipe nfo to stdout
20:23:34 <Alberth> large blocks are not very bad in diverging paths
20:24:22 <Alberth> andythenorth: could be fun
20:24:47 <andythenorth> I need to pick up the result with subprocess as well
20:25:15 <andythenorth> there is an option to write the AST to stdout
20:25:21 <andythenorth> I never learnt what the AST is though
20:25:35 <Alberth> you can create connected pipes between sub-processes iirc
20:25:46 <andythenorth> I think it comes with Dire Warnings
20:25:50 <andythenorth> about untrusted content
20:26:28 * Alberth uses | a lot at command line :)
20:26:29 <andythenorth> probably only matters in a web app :)
20:27:06 <planetmaker> "write your own webgrf" :)
20:27:31 <toobored> Alberth: that's the exit
20:27:56 <Alberth> AST is the thing that is created right after parsing, and before checking that what you provided is semantically sane
20:29:15 <Alberth> toobored: fair enough, but just below the left of the yellow sign there is an incoming track with lots of signals on it
20:29:39 <Alberth> people hardly ever change signal block length at tracks :)
20:30:38 <Alberth> and below the center of that sign again
20:33:32 <toobored> yeah yeah I removed all that stuff. I just left the ones at bridge entry/exit
20:34:04 <toobored> seems to doing a little bettah
20:44:09 <Alberth> It looks overly complicated to me, tbh
20:46:08 <andythenorth> I seem to have a grf
20:46:12 <andythenorth> it has no trains in :P
20:46:18 <andythenorth> but it at least loads in game
20:47:53 <andythenorth> currently I think it’s slower to render many files from nml to nfo individually
20:48:00 <andythenorth> than to render one big nml file
20:48:08 <andythenorth> I wonder about the initial start time for nmlc
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20:55:12 <toobored> Is it normal for cargodist to render at the end of a route a Cost: instead of a Income/Transfer ?
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20:59:21 <andythenorth> nforenum hates my nfo
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