IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-05-31
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00:59:48 <anbaran> Anybody willing to take a quick glance at a station for me? I'm a total noob and I feel like my train shouldn't be waiting where it is.
01:02:35 <anbaran> Here's the picture - I thought the trains should be able to enter either platform because of the path signals? doesn't seem to be happening though. http://imgur.com/p7tkPJc
01:03:58 <ST2> try change the 2 way pbs signals faced to the other side
01:04:13 <ST2> no idea if actually will work xD
01:04:42 <ST2> (the ones closer to the station - 2 way pbs :)
01:04:53 <anbaran> Alright! trying it out.
01:06:08 <anbaran> Nah, now he just waits at the 1 way pbs
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01:10:01 <anbaran> Oh damn I figured it out! It was the signals on the other side.
01:10:55 <anbaran> They were both facing inwards so it must have goofed it.
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08:20:43 <andythenorth> so are we making nml faster? o_O
08:23:09 <andythenorth> I don’t think I’ll do much more on FIRS until either...
08:23:17 <andythenorth> - faster compile
08:23:26 <andythenorth> - or I get better at programming
08:23:32 <andythenorth> the third is a Hard Problem
08:23:44 <andythenorth> the other two are much easier options :P
08:24:30 <andythenorth> FIRS already has support for compiling a single industry, but it’s fragile
08:24:36 <andythenorth> I could improve it, would take about a day
08:24:48 <andythenorth> and it doesn’t benefit any other newgrfs :P
08:26:01 <Alberth> wouldn't you need the third to do the first two?
08:28:41 <andythenorth> I can do a faster compile with my current fat-fingered skills
08:28:46 <andythenorth> linker is beyond me
08:28:59 <andythenorth> as is Not Making Mistakes Only Found After Compiling
08:29:26 <andythenorth> my ratio of productive code to typos, obiwans, bad thinking etc is low
08:29:37 <andythenorth> and waiting minutes to find each one saps interest
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08:32:36 <andythenorth> for Iron Horse, I’ve started using some basic compile-time tests in the python stage, before nml is even called
08:34:33 <andythenorth> I am not very clever, so I would probably have approached the whole thing differently
08:35:05 <andythenorth> each entity (industry, house, train, object etc) would be an object with full action 0, 2, 3 chain as needed
08:35:21 <andythenorth> then throw each of those into a multiprocessing pool, then link the result
08:36:37 <andythenorth> global IDs are BAD FEATURE
08:36:55 <andythenorth> dunno, I’m not good at computer science :P
08:37:07 <Eddi|zuHause> not everything that yo udon't understand is bad :p
08:42:13 <andythenorth> I did do some computer science lectures in one of my degrees
08:42:24 <andythenorth> one of the key lessons was Global Variables Must Never Be Used
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09:00:39 <Flygon> I once got a lot of shit from people for trying to put nested if statements in AviSynth
09:00:51 <Flygon> And they insisted I ALWAYS try to do if statements in a specific way
09:01:03 <Flygon> Even if the non-nested version of the method I used worked fine...
09:02:11 <Alberth> it's called code style, and it's insane by definition
09:02:30 <Alberth> unless it's your own project, in which case it's the optimal way to code
09:03:22 <andythenorth> I’ve witnessed a large discrepancy between code organised by “there is one true way” and code that delivers successfully for end users
09:03:37 <andythenorth> in my limited experience, which is getting close to 30 years
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09:04:55 <andythenorth> I’ve definitely seen projects fail because they were being done wrong
09:05:06 <andythenorth> and I’ve definitely seen projects fail because they were being done right
09:05:29 <andythenorth> and in the middle is a happy mess of things that more or less work, and are more or less wrong or right
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09:40:31 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> one of the key lessons was Global Variables Must Never Be Used <-- that is a common teaching, but it doesn't mean there's never need to access the same data from every place
09:40:58 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that’s not a very good trash talk answer :(
09:41:00 <andythenorth> stop being so reasonable
09:41:33 <Eddi|zuHause> ... especially when the language doesn't have dynamic allocation/a heap anyway
09:46:45 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the "no global variables" rule is meant to ensure that you have a clean interface to the "outside". this may or may not help with code reuse and/or automatted program analysis
09:47:33 <andythenorth> it’s also bad advice if novice programmers learn it too hard
09:47:41 <andythenorth> they end up doing elaborate shit
09:48:08 <Alberth> java helps them a lot doing it :)
09:48:26 <Eddi|zuHause> starting with java or c++ is a bad idea
09:48:54 <Eddi|zuHause> because they require lots of stuff before you can even start explaining the basics
09:50:03 <andythenorth> I still feel dirty though when I occasionally write ‘global: foo'
09:50:43 <Alberth> andythenorth: that's good, you have to think carefully whether it is worth the troubles
09:50:46 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why i write "import globals" :p
09:51:04 <Eddi|zuHause> then i can write "globals.foo" :p
09:51:24 <Alberth> from globals import * :p
09:51:34 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: yeah right :p
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12:16:23 <Wolf01> mmmh, this morning I wanted to continue a work at home, 4 hours of syncronizing files, and I still have to touch a single line of code :|
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16:31:20 <andythenorth> I have a possibly valid case for writing a makefile
16:31:27 <andythenorth> instead of using some python or shell thing
16:31:57 <andythenorth> but the thought of learning make depresses me :P
16:34:36 <andythenorth> maybe I can persuade someone else to do it
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17:25:27 <Alberth> if you know shellscripts, there are only 3 steps to makefiles
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17:32:22 <andythenorth> there is an unpleasant step called ‘learn make'
17:43:13 <frosch123> Alberth: but the fun only starts with implicit rules, with double colons, pipes, special targets, recursive invocation ...
17:44:10 <Alberth> frosch123: sssttt, he'll find out when he understands the 3 steps :p
17:44:17 <frosch123> the worst part is when one rule creates multiple files
17:44:24 <frosch123> i have no figure out yet how to do that correcly
17:44:42 <Alberth> you can't really do that :(
17:44:54 <frosch123> funny thing is, it works with implicit rules :p
17:45:22 <Alberth> It's a pity they didn't use "a b c: ..." for that
17:46:03 <frosch123> i have such a beast at work :p "a b c: d"
17:46:33 <frosch123> it works fine most of the times, but when using "-j" it may happen to be executed in parallel, in which cases the output will be corrupted :p
17:47:24 <frosch123> (i don't care that if the output is done multiple times, it's only a small part of way more; but conflicting writes break it all :p)
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18:04:17 <frosch123> sometimes a single letter is important for a program :/
18:09:11 <frosch123> likely says there is no rule to make bar.b or something
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18:10:57 <andythenorth> Alberth: that’s the most succinct explanation I’ve seen
18:11:29 <Alberth> yep, I dropped all the non-basic stuff :)
18:12:43 <andythenorth> every tutorial I’ve seen is focussed on (1) why you need to do this (I know why) (2) syntax (I can look that up) :P
18:13:26 <andythenorth> maybe there is an untapped market for tutorials: [Language] For Special Kind of Dummies
18:14:37 <frosch123> problem with make is that it is done by c programmers :)
18:14:40 <andythenorth> point 3 is the one I never previously understood
18:14:43 <juzza1> frosch123: true, it doesnt work if only bar.b is missing but foo.a isn't
18:14:45 <Alberth> hmm, skip my first step then, as it explains syntax :p
18:15:11 <andythenorth> point 2 I needed, point 3 is like a revelation
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