IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-05-25
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08:58:05 <Alberth> moin to all awake at this time
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11:10:18 <Eddi|zuHause> in germany you sometimes have frames before the bridge with a slightly smaller size, so when a truck would hit the bridge, it would hit the frame instead
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11:11:09 <Taede> same in the netherlands
11:11:21 <Taede> though they tend to be same height, but with chains dangling down
11:11:23 <Aristide> Eddi|zuHause: I don't know if you know, but SNCF has bought 2 000 too larger trains :')
11:11:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Aristide: yes i heard
11:13:12 <Eddi|zuHause> it's way better than in germany, where they buy trains which don't get delivered, or you can't sit when you have normal sized legs, or the doors won't close
11:13:43 <Aristide> In Lyon, we have an other example about Confluence Museum
11:13:59 <Aristide> 2000 : 61 000 000 € :D
11:14:07 <Aristide> 2011 : 267 000 000 € :D
11:14:39 <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like the Elbphilharmonie in Hamburg
11:15:18 <Eddi|zuHause> and don't even get started about Stuttgart train station and Berlin airport :p
11:17:31 <Aristide> Here we have a problem in a gare : Part Dieu is ready for 35 000 peoples per day, but actually : 120 000 peoples per day use this gare
11:18:00 <Aristide> 180 000 000 € must be invested
11:19:42 <Eddi|zuHause> the original estimate for the Elbphilharmonie was 77 Mio €, upon starting construction in 2007 it was 114 Mio €, in 2012 it was 575 Mio € and in 2013 789 Mio €
11:20:30 <Aristide> I don't know what is final cost in 2013 or 2014 :/
11:20:45 <Eddi|zuHause> also the finishing date was ever pushed backwards
11:21:36 <Alberth> and then people claim only ict projects get out of hand :p
11:22:43 <Eddi|zuHause> and the "Stuttgart 21" project, where they completely remove the dead end station of stuttgart, and replace it with an underground station 90° turned, originally was meant to cost 1 Mrd €, it's currently estimated at over 4 Mrd €, which was always said as "at this point it can't refinance itself", and probably will cost double that
11:23:55 <Eddi|zuHause> they actually got violent protests on that one
11:24:05 <Eddi|zuHause> including police brutality
11:26:37 <Rubidium> cost overruns are normal due to the way the 'higher' ups present the budgets
11:26:59 <Wolf01> ahah I just re-read the comment of Rubidium about the auto-update of grfs "There are plans to implement something, but before that gets useful we'll probably be in 2012 or something." <- yeah, it's more like something, better late than never ;)
11:27:55 <Rubidium> the lower levels say: part X will cost 10-40 million, then all these numbers of all subparts get aggregrated, so you'll get something like it will cost 1 billion - 4 billion. Finally the highest level will say: it will cost at most 1 billion
11:29:36 <Rubidium> heh... that's only a two year overrun for a project where nobody can really pressure someone else to do something; I'd say that's quite good
11:30:53 <Rubidium> and it stayed within budget; it's still EUR 0,00. Exactly what was budgetted
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11:39:23 <Eddi|zuHause> is the game version not part of the image metadata?
11:42:01 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: it should be
11:42:54 <Eddi|zuHause> "Software : h122e7a62"
11:43:20 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i recognize that number
11:43:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i guess that is waaaaay too old for the house date fix
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11:45:47 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: [NewGRF] If a NewGRF overrides a default house the minimum start year for that house was set to 1930?
11:46:37 <Rubidium> that's 1.1.4-RC1 (november 2011), whereas the chillpp build is of july 2012
11:46:45 <Eddi|zuHause> does not sound right. more like "assure that a house for each town zone is available at game start"
11:47:19 <Eddi|zuHause> -Fix [FS#4600]: try to make sure there is an early house available in the current climate for every townzone, not just a single available house for all climates/townzones
11:48:35 <Rubidium> that's april 2011 / 1.1.1-RC1
11:49:19 <Eddi|zuHause> afair chillpp stopped updating somewhere halfway to 1.2
11:51:51 <Eddi|zuHause> my chillpp checkout is of r22273, whereas the above house fix is r22389
11:52:31 <Eddi|zuHause> but i probably don't have the very latest chillpp
11:55:32 <Samu> a replay with TTDX AI building an helicopter
11:55:55 <Brumi> seen any ships since then :)
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12:01:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: afair, ChillPP stopped right before all the GRFv8 stuff was commited, and then only singular revisions were backported
12:02:52 <Brumi> it seems that the TTD AI had some special support for oil rigs
12:05:16 <Alberth> sounds reasonable; oil rigs are special in a number of ways
12:18:16 <Samu> I must try the other tilesets
12:19:21 <Samu> it took me nearly 2 weeks to finally get an AI to make an helicopter
12:38:48 <Aristide> Believe me my experience SNCF engineering station, it goes nickel
13:19:59 <Eddi|zuHause> besides that i find the joke inappropriate, what does "nickel" mean in that context?
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14:46:51 <yorick> http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5679 personally, I would like to be able to use keys like ., /, [, ] as hotkeys. without those keys, the right half of my keyboard is reduced to 11 usable hotkeys instead of the possible 17, creating some serious usability loss that seems rather unneeded
14:49:41 <Eddi|zuHause> yorick: those keys are not easily accessible on many keyboard layouts
14:51:26 <yorick> Eddi|zuHause: the user wanting to set those keys in their hotkeys settings will probably have them, and they are accessible on the most frequently used keyboard layouts
14:56:17 <frosch123> i think öäü+#ß´ are way better accessible
14:57:39 <yorick> seems like a good reason to include those too :)
15:02:10 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26614 /trunk/src (3 files in 3 dirs) (2014-05-25 15:02:04 UTC)
15:02:11 <DorpsGek> -Add: Adv. settings window can handle the autosave setting as well.
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17:45:51 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26615 /trunk/src/lang (7 files) (2014-05-25 17:45:39 UTC)
17:45:52 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:53 <DorpsGek> catalan - 42 changes by juanjo
17:45:54 <DorpsGek> english_AU - 10 changes by mrtux
17:45:55 <DorpsGek> finnish - 10 changes by jpx_
17:45:56 <DorpsGek> french - 10 changes by glx
17:45:57 <DorpsGek> korean - 11 changes by telk5093
17:45:58 <DorpsGek> russian - 4 changes by Lone_Wolf
17:45:59 <DorpsGek> spanish - 3 changes by juanjo
17:56:11 <frosch123> translators are soo lazy
17:56:22 <frosch123> at least the german ones
17:57:49 <Rubidium> s/german/non-Catalan/ ;)
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18:48:19 <MTsPony> Im new here, but not unfamiliar with TT(D) :p
18:48:54 <MTsPony> was about to start a new sub-tropic 4096x4096 server but some folks requested some additions i was gonna meet up here :p
18:48:56 <planetmaker> we're only familiar with OpenTTD here ;)
18:51:07 <MTsPony> anyway thanks for the welcome!
18:52:28 <Alberth> so you're playing with 30 or so persons?
18:52:54 <MTsPony> Well, not yet. The plan is to make a big server capable of around that
18:53:33 <MTsPony> I had one started up, but some folks wanted some GRF additions etc, also I'm prolly gonna use the reddit build with daylenght patch
18:54:35 <Alberth> with 16 persons each has 1024x1024 tiles
18:54:49 <Alberth> with 32 persons that's 512x1024
18:54:58 <planetmaker> he... on coop we play on 1024 tiles for weeks
18:55:26 <planetmaker> no, contrary to that we do not use any patches
18:55:34 <Eddi|zuHause> with 4096² people will have trouble signing on earlier
18:55:38 <Alberth> so nobody will run into each other
18:55:40 <MTsPony> Could anyone shed some light on the bandwidth requirements for like a 16 man player 4096x4096 server?
18:55:52 <Alberth> bandwitdh is not the problem
18:55:55 <Eddi|zuHause> bandwidth is negligible, CPU power is relevant
18:56:05 <planetmaker> additionally the downloads of the map when joining
18:56:18 <planetmaker> MTsPony, every client needs a *better* CPU than the server
18:56:27 <Eddi|zuHause> MTsPony: the CPU power of every single client
18:56:46 <MTsPony> so far the cpu usage has been around 1-2% on 4096x4096 maps here, with around 300 trains
18:56:47 <Eddi|zuHause> MTsPony: as odd as it sounds, you get the best results when the server is the slowest
18:57:03 <Eddi|zuHause> MTsPony: also, single-core speed matters
18:57:13 <MTsPony> that'd be 4.4ghz i7 single core then :p
18:57:38 <Alberth> your % is probably for all cores
18:57:48 <planetmaker> on windows it surely is
18:58:32 <Eddi|zuHause> MTsPony: the easiest metrics of whether your computer can handle stuff is when you take a really full game (like >1000 vehicles and lots of cargo) and press the fast forward button.
18:58:44 <Eddi|zuHause> if the game still speeds up significantly, you're fine
18:59:45 <Alberth> not that 1000 vehicles at 30 persons is just 30 vehicles each
19:00:17 <Alberth> ie done in a few game years at normal speed
19:01:36 <DorpsGek> Commit by planetmaker :: r26616 trunk/src/network/network_server.cpp (2014-05-25 19:01:30 UTC)
19:01:37 <DorpsGek> -Fix (r26576) [FS#6025]: First send packages about new company, then clients joining it to admin port (Taede)
19:02:02 <Eddi|zuHause> that grammar is off...
19:02:48 <Eddi|zuHause> at the very least it's missing a comma, which makes it really hard to understand on first read
19:03:19 <Taede> 'then about clients joining it'
19:04:32 <planetmaker> I hope you don't mind that I now don't hack the svn server to fix the stored commit message ;)
19:05:11 <Eddi|zuHause> and to support my anger, i release __ln___ onto you!!
19:05:34 * Taede is content with having a first patch in trunk
19:05:41 <Eddi|zuHause> s/support/emphasise/
19:05:44 <planetmaker> oh noes! /me quickly hides
19:08:37 <andythenorth> those two grey things are linear actuators for the articulated steering
19:09:10 <Alberth> it escaped from the lab/house!
19:10:11 <Alberth> looks much better, in the wild :)
19:12:20 <frosch123> hmm, oh, i found a forums tab
19:12:36 <frosch123> i opened it this morning, but then thought maybe read it later :p
19:12:54 <frosch123> i guess i just skip it today :)
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19:15:45 <Eddi|zuHause> "Vitali Klitschko is new mayor of Kiew"
19:20:50 <LSky`> MTsPony, if you need help with the reddit client and its settings, send me a message
19:22:28 <LSky`> hi, Jinassi told me you were looking for some help. seems like youve had some questions answered already though
19:22:39 <planetmaker> I would find it much more interesting, if someone started a server which always uses the current nightly
19:22:53 <planetmaker> Thus updates at like 21h CET or so
19:23:14 <LSky`> it would mean people would have to update their client though, right?
19:23:27 <planetmaker> well, they would yes
19:23:54 <LSky`> ifor testing purposes, it makes total sense
19:24:02 <planetmaker> but that's not more complicated, on the contrary, it's easier than installing a 'custom' client
19:24:02 <LSky`> but for actual playing, I dont see that working out too well
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19:24:20 <Alberth> you can also update twice a week or so
19:24:31 <planetmaker> and there's several auto-updates which give you nightly or so just by a mouse click
19:24:56 <planetmaker> well, with coop we update like once a week. Usually prior to a new map. Unless I simply update :P
19:26:38 <planetmaker> well, and stable server only updates when there's a new testing or stable release... But then also mid-game :)
19:26:55 <frosch123> you kind of want to update when noone is playing
19:27:13 <frosch123> so, rather 9am instead of 9pm :p
19:27:34 <frosch123> resp. on wednesday or thursday if weekly
19:28:05 <planetmaker> yeah, also viable :)
19:28:35 <planetmaker> There once was a nightly server and it had a quite active community really
19:33:37 <Eddi|zuHause> but even that did not update daily
19:34:58 <Jinassi> hey, openttdcoop peeps, does your resolution tweak from 2006 blopost still applies to current revisions?
19:35:49 <planetmaker> I will be surprised
19:36:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Jinassi: dedicated server has had an overhaul since then
19:36:41 <Jinassi> yes it is an old tweak, hence i am asking
19:37:12 <Eddi|zuHause> basically a "dedicated blitter" has been introduced that discards screen output at earlier stages of processing
19:38:03 <Eddi|zuHause> whereas back then all the sprite sorting and buffering still happened, just the push to the graphics driver never happened
19:38:18 <Eddi|zuHause> now also the sprite sorting is skipped
19:38:43 <Eddi|zuHause> unless you specifically enable it
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19:39:03 <Jinassi> Alright, so help me here a bit, I'm on wiki and am really curious what value should I write to usethat dedicated blitter?
19:39:14 <Eddi|zuHause> (that only makes sense if you want to take screenshots and stuff from the server console, so nobody really does it)
19:39:41 <Eddi|zuHause> the dedicated blitter is automatically used when you start in dedicated mode (-D)
19:39:48 <Jinassi> no, want to help make a 4k x 4k map and really use any helpfull tweak to make it run smooth
19:41:14 <planetmaker> Jinassi, as I said earlier to MTsPony: whatever the server does, *every client* needs a more powerful CPU
19:41:22 <planetmaker> As it additionally also has to handle the graphics output
19:42:31 <Eddi|zuHause> MTsPony, Jinassi: when the server is too fast, people will drop out of the game because their clients cannot keep up
19:43:39 <Jinassi> we had lotsa practice on /r/openttd and many empires were built and demolished
19:44:11 <Eddi|zuHause> if you speed up the server, you make the issue worse
19:45:43 <Jinassi> lsky tooks great care of us and a well polished custom build didn't bring us to that issue...yet
19:46:26 <Jinassi> server too fast, clents cant keep up
19:47:02 <planetmaker> that mod does not change anything on that end, Jinassi ;)
19:50:05 <LSky`> but weve had issues with clients not being able to keep up
19:50:13 <LSky`> as explained before, its dependent on client hardware
19:50:55 <MTsPony> when would the server be too fast?
19:51:18 <Rubidium> when clients can't keep up with the server?
19:51:59 <planetmaker> MTsPony, basically it depends on what you expect your *average* client to handle, on how wide the computer speed varies between your different clients. And the percentage of possible clients you want to exclude by your settings :)
19:52:29 <planetmaker> (and maybe those which you gain by running the hardware-intensive settings)
19:53:22 <MTsPony> so if some guy with a pentium 1 connects, Or even manages, every game will run dog slow?
19:53:53 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26617 /trunk/src/script (4 files) (2014-05-25 19:53:46 UTC)
19:53:54 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5973]: [Script] Loading/parsing of info .nuts was done in the same VM, causing e.g. constants to break the loading of info of other scripts
19:54:25 <LSky`> its better explained like this
19:54:30 <LSky`> the server doesnt run 'fast'
19:54:41 <LSky`> it just runs its pace, but eventually clients will be unable to keep up
19:55:16 <planetmaker> MTsPony, you simply will not learn to know them. For the reasons lsky just said
19:55:26 <planetmaker> they never will be able to see the map or say a word ingame
19:55:53 <MTsPony> they should upgrade their pc or connection eh? :p
19:56:21 <Alberth> no, their CPU cannot keep up
19:57:23 <Alberth> if your server runs at 100%, you run the game only
19:57:39 <Alberth> a client needs to run the same game AND draw the images to the screen
19:58:02 <planetmaker> my unqualified experience tells me, a client needs 20% more cpu
19:58:17 <Taede> and contrary to most other games out there, drawing is done mostly by cpu instead of gfx card
19:59:49 <Alberth> on the other hand, if you have a slow server, the game as a whole slows down earlier, but all clients then have time to draw the graphics
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20:05:22 <MTsPony> anyone know the highest settings for
20:05:23 <MTsPony> commands_per_frame = 2
20:05:23 <MTsPony> max_commands_in_queue = 16
20:05:24 <MTsPony> bytes_per_frame_burst = 256
20:05:24 <MTsPony> max_init_time = 20000
20:05:26 <MTsPony> max_join_time = 20000
20:05:26 <MTsPony> max_download_time = 32000
20:05:28 <MTsPony> max_password_time = 4000
20:05:32 <MTsPony> the *time entries anyway
20:06:47 <Taede> not of the top of my head, but if you type for instance 'set commands_per_frame' without a value, it will tell you the current value as well as a min/max value where applicable
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20:22:15 <RageRiot|> Hi, I was asking yesterday about font sizes. I changed the medium font to somthing easier on my eyes but the size isnt increasing.
20:23:47 <RageRiot|> the font stayed the same size,
20:26:17 <frosch123> you also have to change the font, not only the size
20:26:19 <RageRiot|> Also music isnt playing. I looked at the Faq which suggests I need timidity which is installed on my system. The commands it suggests I enter returns an error
20:26:25 <frosch123> the default font does not support different sizes
20:27:02 <RageRiot|> medium_font = DejaVu Sans Mono Bold
20:27:34 <RageRiot|> that should have been 16 but I tested with 8
20:28:25 <frosch123> is that really the font name?
20:29:20 <frosch123> maybe you mean the font "DejaVu Sans Mono" in the bold variant? then it would be "DejaVu Sand Mono, bold"
20:32:21 <RageRiot|> hmm I think it is working now I've chose a different font
20:33:22 <RageRiot|> ye I think it kept going back to a defualt font when I used DejaVu Sand Mono, bold
20:33:42 <frosch123> if you copied my typo :p
20:34:20 <RageRiot|> lol haha ye good point but I tried it last night where I copied front the font viewer on linux mint
20:35:59 <RageRiot|> I've gotta go out for a bit. I'll ask about the sound when I get back.
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22:43:59 <Eddi|zuHause> RageRiot|: are you absolutely sure the font changes?
22:47:28 <Eddi|zuHause> RageRiot|: can you get some relevant debug output?
22:49:07 <Jinassi> prolly has an old config file, i don't see any font settings in win version
22:49:30 <Jinassi> though he's on linux if i remember correctly
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23:32:05 <RageRiot|> hey eddi yeh it reallt does seem to work now.
23:36:31 <Jinassi> Rage, do tell me how did you make it work, i play on 3 montors and on high resolution it really puts a strain on eyes
23:37:00 <RageRiot|> I think you need to have the font in quotes
23:37:10 <RageRiot|> and bold after the comma
23:37:21 <RageRiot|> small_font = "Bitstream Charterf, Bold"
23:39:55 <RageRiot|> I left mine false but I might play with that later
23:43:23 <RageRiot|> are you on linux as well Jinassi ?
23:43:49 <RageRiot|> music isnt workin on mine.
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continue to next day ⏵
