IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-03-25
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01:48:28 <Supercheese> Ugh, I need to go back and add accusatives to all cargoes
01:52:27 <Supercheese> Why didn't I do that in the first place...
01:53:11 <Eddi|zuHause> what the hell do you need those for?
01:53:53 <Supercheese> especially "no longer accepts {CARGO}"
01:54:21 <Supercheese> I could flip to passive
01:54:21 <Supercheese> {CARGO} is no longer accepted
01:54:21 <Supercheese> but then I'd need ablative on the station name...
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02:04:05 <Eddi|zuHause> so if a {STRING} were to insert an adjective instead of a noun, german would need cases
02:05:14 <Supercheese> if German nouns don't need to change based on case, then yeah they're not required
02:05:41 <Eddi|zuHause> at least i can't quickly find a noun that changes on case
02:05:57 <Supercheese> but I seem to need at least genitive accusative and dative on cargoes for Latin...
02:06:23 <Supercheese> since station names do not have cases available
02:06:40 <Supercheese> and thus should stay nominative if at all possible
02:07:26 <Eddi|zuHause> i think the welsh translation wanted cases for town names, which was pretty much impossible to fulfill
02:07:38 <Supercheese> yeah I would love to have cases for town names for Latin
02:07:47 <Supercheese> it's very difficult without at least the locative
02:10:49 <Supercheese> I see Russian also needed accusatives on cargoes
02:16:27 <Eddi|zuHause> a place where german would need cases is, if the game were to assemble a string like "{no|one|many} X"
02:17:04 <Eddi|zuHause> but all current occurances of no/one/many are fixed, not dynamic
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06:52:31 <Supercheese> Ugh, so many strings
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13:06:09 <andythenorth> V453000: *you* are a BAD FEATURE
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13:58:24 <V453000> andythenorth isnt in channel
14:03:05 <peter1138> should i play a game of ottd?
14:03:55 <V453000> you dont play openttd?
14:08:23 <peter1138> Hmm, lots of NewGRF updates.
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14:12:08 <peter1138> Should've fix that NewGRF preset system to use just GRF IDs...
14:13:34 <peter1138> When did kerning support get added? I'm sure I wrote a patch for that years ago but never did anything with it.
14:26:17 <planetmaker> peter1138: a button like 'update preset' would be nice. Instead of automatic updates.
14:29:57 <V453000> that would be amazing
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14:33:11 <peter1138> Apparently I don't have all the old NewGRFs installed, so just having the filename is useless.
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15:18:33 <peter1138> Hmm, multistop docks...
15:18:51 <peter1138> Can't remember if I got that to work...
15:20:28 <peter1138> Heh, just found my patch for aforementioned preset change, heh
15:24:05 <krinn> I have "tried" add eints support, but ^^ where can i see the result?
15:33:54 <Eddi|zuHause> "invalid" means it doesn't understand the string parameters
15:34:12 <krinn> and i don't understand that :)
15:34:50 <krinn> is there a way to "see" what is causing problem ?
15:36:41 <Eddi|zuHause> (Invalid) STR_INFO_0 : With {NUM} vehicle{P "" s} <-- did you declare the plural type? is {P} after the parameter correct or do you need to specify {P:0}?
15:37:40 <krinn> in no lang file i declare the plural form, it just works in openttd as-is
15:39:39 <krinn> and look at it in french.TXT : STR_INFO_0 : Avec {NUM} véhicule{P "" s}
15:39:51 <krinn> and it doesn't complain for anything in french.txt
15:41:09 <krinn> That's planetmaker's fault ! he suggest me to use eints, forgetting i'm a kick ass bug finder !
15:41:15 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it works in openttd, but eints may be a tick stricter
15:41:42 <krinn> it should complain for the same reason in french.txt if it was that strict no ?
15:42:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea, i'm just guessing things
15:43:05 <krinn> reject ones cannot be edit by users ?
15:56:29 <krinn> I must go, but for debug help : check STR_AWARD_OWN_MULTI reject in english good in french and both use {P x y}
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16:07:50 <Xaroth|Work> your singing scared him off, andythenorth
16:10:18 <Xaroth|Work> planetmaker: are you trying to start a war here?
16:10:27 <planetmaker> of course the lang file headers need to declare the plural and gender forms. lalalala :)
16:10:59 <planetmaker> nah, there's enough war out there. I don't need one here.
16:11:09 <planetmaker> Anyone who wants one, can go and find one
16:11:53 <Eddi|zuHause> # i'm covering my ears like a kid
16:12:01 <Eddi|zuHause> # when your words mean nothing i go lalala
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17:08:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i never understood how people can fall into this ripoff scheme
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17:46:11 <andythenorth> V453000: maybe we’re doing it wrong :(
17:47:03 <Pinkbeast> andythenorth: you're doing it right from where I am
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17:47:21 <andythenorth> forum posters disagree
17:47:25 <andythenorth> as does the FIRS poll
17:48:42 <andythenorth> making things better
17:48:56 <andythenorth> players who post in the forums are pretty strong advocates of making things worse
17:49:37 <Phreeze> they sometimes don't know the backgrounds
17:49:48 <Pinkbeast> andythenorth: Welp I enjoy your sets, as you know
17:51:44 <Pikka> nice weather we're having for the time of year
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17:52:17 <Phreeze> this morning we had -3.5....
17:52:22 * Pinkbeast would settle for "not actually a bastard headwind"
17:52:57 <Pikka> it's been raining here, and it's currently 22c at 4am. Winter is coming.
17:52:59 <Eddi|zuHause> who cares about weather when you can sit in front of your computer?
17:54:23 <Phreeze> winter is back here.... -3 today, but +15 on saturday....
18:00:49 <Eddi|zuHause> well, typical april weather :)
18:01:11 <Pinkbeast> As long as there are not leaves on the line.
18:01:17 <andythenorth> Pikka: you need to make your sets more realistic
18:02:49 <Pinkbeast> Pikka: In particular there should be no livestock after Beeching oh no wait
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18:18:41 <Eddi|zuHause> someone should make a guide how to handle andy
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18:45:16 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26427 trunk/src/lang/catalan.txt (2014-03-25 18:45:09 UTC)
18:45:17 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:18 <DorpsGek> catalan - 160 changes by juanjo
19:21:59 <Pikka> livestock is a silly cargo anyway ;)
19:23:06 <planetmaker> especially in times of scrapie and mad cow disease ;)
19:25:40 <Pikka> with default industries, at least
19:26:01 <Pikka> two cargos which go from the same industry to the same industry
19:26:07 <Pikka> at least one of them is redundant ;)
19:26:42 <Eddi|zuHause> remove farms from the game. "realistic" food comes out of the supermarket anyway
19:27:48 <planetmaker> soylent green anyone?
19:28:00 <planetmaker> new colours available on request
19:29:00 <Eddi|zuHause> soylent yellow sounded way more delicious
19:30:15 <planetmaker> so, soylent yellow for you?
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19:35:49 <planetmaker> I really wonder why people keep finding cyclotrons useful
19:36:17 <planetmaker> you also should learn about auto-completion of signals, rubenwardy ;)
19:36:53 <rubenwardy> I use it normally. Don't know why i didn't then
19:39:07 <planetmaker> rubenwardy, imho it also misses any explanation as of what a cyclotron is and why one would want to build one in the first place
19:39:17 <planetmaker> and then why one shouldn't build one at all ever
19:39:31 <planetmaker> (it jams and can f*** your whole network)
19:40:04 <frosch123> maybe cyclotrons try to mimik aircraft holding pattern
19:40:26 <frosch123> for those who don't like airports :p
19:40:42 <planetmaker> somewhat they do... but without the height levels :)
19:41:29 <frosch123> maybe trains get robbed when they stop
19:43:39 <planetmaker> proper pre-signaling can also ensure that trains from a side line will join the main line at full speed - even if they waited in stand-still on the side line for a proper gap in ML trains
19:43:52 <planetmaker> it's fiddly. But possible
19:44:15 <rubenwardy> cyclotrons are more of a gimic for me. I don't use them in serious games
19:47:30 <Kjetil_> hm. I guess the runnings cost for a train should be different if it actually moving
19:48:13 <Eddi|zuHause> but it has hardly any influence in the big picture
19:49:17 <planetmaker> Kjetil_, a number of NewGRFs do so. But as Eddi said: makes no difference really
19:52:55 <V453000> is there a way to have a wagon which would define length (and articulation) based on leading engine? E.g. have one master wagon which would look as two articulated 4/8 with train A, and as one intact 8/8 with train B
19:53:00 <V453000> I guess that isnt possible right
19:53:06 <Kjetil_> then the cost difference isn't large enough :P
19:53:27 <Pikka> length, yes, articulation, no
19:54:24 <frosch123> V453000: number of articulated parts is fixed upon purchase
19:54:36 <frosch123> heqs does invisible articulatred part to shorten stuff
19:55:03 <V453000> well utterly theoretical is to have 3/8, 2/8 and 3/8 articulated and use sprites accordingly
19:55:12 <V453000> but that is functionaly w.e.i.r.d
19:55:29 <V453000> my aim is to have one ultimate wagon which could connect to any train but the articulated thing is making it quite tough :D
19:55:40 <V453000> I guess the 3+2+3 would look strange in curves etc
19:57:15 <frosch123> cets does that stuff
19:57:24 <frosch123> i guess a lot sets actually do
19:57:32 <frosch123> more articulated parts than visible
19:58:14 <frosch123> a 3+2+3+ vehicle does not look any different to a 8/8 one, if only the middle part has a sprite
19:58:40 <frosch123> you only need to be careful with dragging in depot
19:58:58 <frosch123> which does not completely support articulated vehicles yet
19:59:06 <frosch123> it only draws the first part at the mouse cursor
19:59:20 <frosch123> but ofc, you can also make a patch for ottd for that :p
19:59:53 <V453000> exactly, I am worried about the depot part
20:00:22 <V453000> 3+2+3 could easily handle my requirements visually ... not sure about the 2x4/8 but definitely the 8/8
20:01:30 <frosch123> well, there is var 10 to distinguish depot/vehicle list from map
20:01:37 <Pikka> 1+2+2+2+1, obviously. :)
20:01:45 <frosch123> so you can specify different sprites for the gui anyway
20:02:08 <V453000> so I could define depot sprites the way so that the first dragged vehicle is visible
20:02:28 <frosch123> you can also put text on depot vehicles :p
20:02:36 <V453000> yeah I do that already
20:03:26 <V453000> 1+2+2+2+1 sounds great too
20:03:54 <V453000> if edge 2s get the 4/8 it means in a long chain it is 2 gap, 2 wagon, 2 gap, ... which should look okay in curves
20:04:00 <frosch123> it affect curve speed limits ofc :p
20:04:07 <V453000> that is what I just thought of
20:04:10 <V453000> which will cause wtf :D
20:04:21 <planetmaker> why do the short wagons need articulation?
20:04:38 <V453000> planetmaker: to keep 8/8 total
20:04:53 <V453000> +convenient upon purchase, less clicking
20:05:23 <planetmaker> wouldn't then articulation in units of the shortest wagon make sense?
20:05:49 <planetmaker> so 2-vehicle articulation to get 8/8
20:05:52 <V453000> but I want an ultimate wagon which can look like 8/8 and 4/á at the same time
20:05:55 <V453000> yes that is done currently
20:06:06 <V453000> so for 8/8 I need a center part for sprites
20:06:17 <V453000> and for 4/8 I need two in the middle-ish
20:06:24 <V453000> 1+2+2+2+1 fits that perfectly
20:07:21 <planetmaker> look like 8/8 and what at the same time?
20:07:40 <V453000> like 8/8 with engine A
20:07:48 <V453000> like 2x4/8 with engine B
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20:08:48 <frosch123> we need a notation for visible and invisible parts :p
20:08:54 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: do you have one already?
20:08:55 <alluke> hopefully the new 2cc set will support railcar wagons
20:09:08 <frosch123> 1+[2]+2+[2]+1, 1+2+[2]+2+1
20:09:29 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i had no need for that yet
20:09:36 <V453000> im going to try to do that
20:09:50 <Eddi|zuHause> besides, which part is visible depends on some factors
20:11:07 <andythenorth> what have I stumbled into? ;)
20:11:12 <planetmaker> hi andythenorth :)
20:11:23 <planetmaker> you've stumbled into an invisible discussion :P
20:13:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't see anything
20:13:53 <frosch123> andythenorth: we only try to get V to work, after we all bashed him on the forums :)
20:14:53 <V453000> V will get to work tomorrow :P
20:15:15 <V453000> bashing was insufficient but Pikka reminded me that I wanted to get rid of the complex fit wagon to correct engine puzzle in the purchase menu
20:15:22 <andythenorth> Pikka: it’s shameful that authors have an opinion
20:15:23 <V453000> having one ultimate wagon was my dream a long time ago already
20:15:43 <andythenorth> I really wanted to troll in that thread
20:15:52 <andythenorth> but I figured I just piss off the mods :P
20:15:53 <V453000> you are welcome to do so still andythenorth :D
20:16:01 <Pikka> andythenorth: well, the parameters of the discussion are "things which are annoying to players"
20:16:10 <Pikka> if you don't mind annoying players, have as many opinions as you like ;)
20:16:25 <frosch123> andythenorth: i legitimately gave two issues which annoy me about nuts :p
20:16:37 <andythenorth> I have the opinion that the vehicles in my RV set are all wrong
20:16:46 <andythenorth> I shall fix that
20:17:00 <frosch123> oh, i missed the obvious one
20:17:15 <frosch123> most annoying are authors who want to change their set all the time to something cmopletely different
20:17:31 <frosch123> or who think that 3 vehicles should be enough for everyone
20:20:06 <andythenorth> frosch123: 3 vehicles is 1 too many
20:20:15 <andythenorth> universal engine, universal wagon
20:20:20 <andythenorth> engine has upgrades
20:20:48 <andythenorth> wagon auto-refits but it checks the current date against a grf-local lookup table of a lunar cycle on a fictional planet
20:21:23 <andythenorth> auto-refit is allowed for liquid cargos if moon is waxing, and for all other cargos if waning, except in June
20:21:27 <andythenorth> when it reverses
20:21:32 <andythenorth> and leap years, when it inverts
20:21:53 <andythenorth> engine stats ‘upgrade' constantly
20:22:32 <andythenorth> I just need a name for this set
20:22:42 <andythenorth> I thought of NUTS, but I think it’s taken :(
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20:25:17 <andythenorth> what if we *collaborated* :o
20:25:26 <andythenorth> maybe we could make a set with just no vehicles?
20:25:33 <V453000> well then! I will try to start coding it tomorrow (: thanks for the input guys ... I am just afraid that I will run into some "out of IDs" or "too many switch results" thing
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21:12:44 <planetmaker> V453000, out of IDs? you really need 64k? :P (well... 8k for articulated)
21:13:05 <planetmaker> or was it 16k for articulated?
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21:19:19 <Eddi|zuHause> CETS can grow about 4 times bigger before i run into trouble
21:31:23 <Phreeze> lol found that thread about bad features xD
21:33:22 <frosch123> usually people who start a thread take offence on replies
21:33:31 <frosch123> it's a new thing that it is the other way around :p
21:34:32 <andythenorth> not unusual for purno
21:36:53 <frosch123> no idea, he's one of the guys whose profile says thousands of posts, but i cannot remember seeing any of them
21:37:07 <frosch123> some people only post in areas i do not read :)
21:40:23 <planetmaker> he used to be active drawing. But that's long ago.
21:40:40 <planetmaker> His replies in that thread are typical for recent times
21:41:46 <Eddi|zuHause> which thread are you talking about anyway?
21:41:58 <frosch123> the thread of the day
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21:44:39 <planetmaker> the one which could also be titled "I never will apply as ambassador" :P
21:44:47 <davidstrauss> Is there a way to configure the replacement of existing vehicles with the existing type without using a deep, advanced option?
21:45:14 <davidstrauss> Often, vehicles get too old before any newer tech is available.
21:45:28 <planetmaker> you mean like autorenew instead of autoreplace?
21:46:27 <davidstrauss> planetmaker: I'm aware of that option. It just seems like there should be a better, more discoverable way.
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21:46:53 <planetmaker> then you'll be disappointed
21:47:13 <DorpsGek> Commit by planetmaker :: r26428 /trunk/src (fios_gui.cpp lang/english.txt) (2014-03-25 21:47:07 UTC)
21:47:14 <DorpsGek> -Add [FS#5953]: Load button for heightmap list
21:48:51 <planetmaker> davidstrauss, afaik that setting is active by default. So it would not need adjustment
21:49:18 <frosch123> i am quite sure it isn't :)
21:49:23 <Eddi|zuHause> davidstrauss: do you have a suggestion how that would be better available?
21:49:43 <Eddi|zuHause> i would be surprised if that is on by default
21:50:41 <planetmaker> why actually isn't it?
21:51:07 <planetmaker> if breakdowns are on, autoreplace with reasonable money safety margin probably should be on :)
21:51:22 <davidstrauss> Eddi|zuHause: It would work fine for me if the same technology were available in "replace vehicles."
21:51:44 <davidstrauss> Eddi|zuHause: The tool already allows you to configure replacement purchases if the technology is different.
21:52:09 <planetmaker> I guess that makes sense
21:52:23 <davidstrauss> Obviously, it wouldn't make sense to allow using the "replace all" option with the same tech, but "replace old" would be useful with the same tech.
21:53:07 <Eddi|zuHause> there was an ancient topic about combining both features, so you could do "replace this vehicle to that vehicle when old"
21:53:23 <frosch123> that went into trunk :p
21:53:41 <frosch123> anyway, we could convert the current setting into a default setting for the autoreplace dialog
21:53:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't played for several years, i might have missed some features :p
21:54:06 <frosch123> i.e. new engines either default to "no replacement" or "replace with same when old"
21:54:26 <frosch123> similar as for the non-stop setting and such
21:55:02 <frosch123> that way people do not need to know about the setting, and can click all engines in every game one by one :p
21:55:23 <davidstrauss> Would be helpful, too, if there were a clear way to get to the "replace vehicles" dialog from the old vehicle warning.
21:55:40 <planetmaker> that's more difficult, I think :)
21:56:11 <frosch123> yeah, we have no clippy :)
21:57:52 <davidstrauss> Well, OpenTTD has the in-your-face half of Clippy without the next-steps part. ;-)
21:59:33 *** luaduck_zzz is now known as luaduck
22:00:35 <Eddi|zuHause> "looks like you're trying to build a railway line, can i help you with that?"
22:01:21 <Eddi|zuHause> "looks like you're trying to build a cyclotrone. there's not going to be any benefit of that, you should stop-" .p
22:01:51 <davidstrauss> But the cyclotrone is the fastest transportation option yet!
22:04:28 <frosch123> "you ar eusing a terrible train set - click here to see how to improve on it"
22:07:34 <Eddi|zuHause> so... the thread is basically "YOU DARED CRITICISING MY SET?!?!"
22:08:31 <alluke> hah....historical flags on 2cc set
22:09:23 <alluke> nazi flags would cause incredible amount of butthurt
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22:22:56 <Eddi|zuHause> you could get in real trouble for those
22:23:17 <planetmaker> yes, I would not like my servers being confiscated on grounds of propagating or showing nazi symbols
22:23:46 <planetmaker> And I guess no-one would want that here. It would hurt many people ;)
22:23:58 <planetmaker> like police shutting down and I getting sued
22:24:13 <alluke> do you live in north korea?
22:24:27 <planetmaker> I live in Germany. And nazi symbols are illegal here
22:24:31 <Eddi|zuHause> you could try to argue it's for historic/educational/artistic content
22:24:46 <planetmaker> yes, that would be my defence. But... not worth the trouble
22:25:04 <alluke> funny since more people was killed in ussr
22:25:09 <Eddi|zuHause> because technically, they're only illegal if you use them to identify yourself with such groups
22:25:19 <planetmaker> g'night andythenorth
22:25:19 <alluke> double moralism fuck yeah
22:25:21 <andythenorth> before inevitable Godwin
22:25:35 <andythenorth> sometimes you can smell one in the air
22:25:54 <planetmaker> I'm sure it already slammed-down hard
22:26:00 <Eddi|zuHause> there was a big legal battle a few years ago over an icon where someone threw a swastika into a garbage bin
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22:26:46 <planetmaker> yeah. Anti-fashists sold those. And iirc they got sued and only won in the 2nd revision or so
22:27:10 <alluke> antifas are total clowns
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22:28:12 <planetmaker> I prefer clowns over murderers
22:28:49 <djura-san> Hi there. I was wondering what is the availability of diesel trains?
22:29:06 <Eddi|zuHause> depends on which NewGRFs you use
22:29:15 <alluke> depends on your train set(s) you're using and year
22:29:55 <djura-san> SO what is the lifespan of dieles trains?
22:30:13 <planetmaker> 1900 - ever. Quite variable
22:30:32 <djura-san> planetmaker: but will i be able to buy them in 2120?
22:31:00 <Eddi|zuHause> with the default set: no
22:31:10 <Eddi|zuHause> unless you switch on "vehicles never expire"
22:31:24 <planetmaker> and what eddi said
22:31:43 <djura-san> but that is like cheating :\\\\\\\\\
22:31:54 <djura-san> dammit, my keyboard is off power, ignore it
22:32:16 <planetmaker> I don't consider that cheating
22:32:27 <planetmaker> It's also not recorded in the cheat menu ;)
22:32:28 <Eddi|zuHause> if it were cheating, it would be a cheat :)
22:32:31 <planetmaker> it's a valid setting
22:33:26 <djura-san> Okay then. SO i can set that up and just use it? With that option on i will be able to use diesel trains for their regular price (for that year) till the end of the time?
22:33:46 <planetmaker> inflation applies, if it's enabled
22:34:18 <djura-san> i believe it is, by default
22:34:32 <planetmaker> but with vehicles-never-expire, they're available till the end of OpenTTD time, yes
22:36:28 <djura-san> planetmaker: why i sid i conider it cheating: i wiiiileave te pc on for the night and generate as much money as i can using current build. Since it is not 2050, i must wait to get to the last upgrades in all vehicles
22:37:09 <planetmaker> I would rather suggest to cheat money, if your real joy is building rather than waiting for income
22:37:34 <planetmaker> it would actually save you real money on electricity
22:37:50 <djura-san> but cheats are recorded forever :>
22:38:04 <planetmaker> setting changes, too ;)
22:38:30 <alluke> leftists left the government
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