IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-03-26
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08:59:47 <Endymion_Mallorn> Hi all. I just downloaded the OpenGFX+ Mars terrain, and the Mars Heightmap, and the Martian Town Names. Those are based on real-Mars places, are there any based on Barsoom?
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09:11:45 <supermop> cant wait for stations in nml
09:20:41 <planetmaker> bridges and stations missing. still.
09:43:05 <supermop> what is everyone working on up on the correct side of the globe?
09:46:06 <planetmaker> shaking marbles ;)
09:51:46 <V453000> rendering shit and pondering new nuts features :D
09:52:23 <krinn> i have 10 strings in eints that i don't want to be translate (only present in english.txt). Is there a tag, comment... to mark them "don't translate that" ?
10:01:19 <planetmaker> there is no such tag, no
10:01:32 <planetmaker> why don#t you want them translated?
10:02:10 <krinn> to be kept only in english.txt, so other language miss it and display the one from english.txt
10:02:24 <planetmaker> so much was obvious. But why?
10:02:57 <planetmaker> don't tell me you're concerned about file size
10:03:17 <krinn> just to have a common property
10:03:40 <planetmaker> I hear the file size argument often from some NewGRF authors :D
10:03:59 <planetmaker> while a single vehicle sprite is larger :D
10:04:11 <krinn> i never doubt they are insane :)
10:05:04 <planetmaker> what do you need a 'common property' for? Which strings exactly do you talk about?
10:05:43 <krinn> i use common property to credit translators, everyone update english.txt part, everyone get the same result. Else they might just add it to their own language, but i want any language to display their names.
10:05:47 <planetmaker> {ORANGE}{STRING} ?
10:06:12 <planetmaker> and also credits do need translation
10:06:14 <krinn> but only the credit i care
10:06:35 <krinn> there's no translation to names
10:06:40 <planetmaker> In English I write "krin, planetmaker, and andy". In German I write "krin, planetmaker and andy" (mind the missing ",")
10:06:51 <juzza1> you can remove those unwanted strings from the lang files, then append your common strings from an external file to the english.lng before building
10:07:53 <planetmaker> krinn, really, you should enough faith in your translators to translate correctly
10:08:16 <planetmaker> in case of doubt they are lazy and use "copy string"
10:08:32 <__ln___> krinn: actually you are mistaken, there *are* translations for names
10:08:43 <planetmaker> (Correct) STR_LGS_AUTHOR : Krinn (english, french) lugo (german) <-- that one definitely needs translation
10:08:53 <planetmaker> and like __ln__ says
10:09:10 <planetmaker> Treebeard is translated rightfully into Baumbart. Or king's landing into Königsmund
10:09:51 <krinn> if anyone do swedish : you end with english.txt remain as is and swedish one with the name added
10:09:56 <__ln___> the author of the Da Vinci Code is known as "Dens Brauns" in latvia, for example.
10:09:57 <krinn> so only swedish users will see it
10:10:14 <planetmaker> krinn, you don't end up that way. english.txt is the one which defines 'correct'
10:10:27 <planetmaker> eints will complain if english.txt is newer for that string
10:10:51 <planetmaker> so *you* change english.txt. Translators handle the rest. And are notified of the changes to English strings
10:11:54 <planetmaker> so yes, translations can lag sometimes. But not translating the credits is worse
10:12:32 <planetmaker> if you're concerned about having it all right: before a release edit each language file and update that particular string
10:12:44 <planetmaker> you have the commit rights on everything
10:13:06 <krinn> erf, more work when it was suppose to lower it
10:13:11 <planetmaker> You anyway want to update credits from time to time, checking eints commit logs
10:13:46 <krinn> i don't have to edit any credits right now, people update them in english.txt and its done
10:14:01 <peter1138> Just add your translators' names to the english version. Then they will just copy that and not have something unique to that language.
10:14:21 <planetmaker> lol. And *who* updates english.txt and whatever.txt manually? Checking strings for correctness, syntactically etc?
10:14:38 <planetmaker> who is troubled with code pages and utf or not utf?
10:14:44 <planetmaker> just like peter said
10:14:44 <peter1138> planetmaker, probably no-one ;)
10:15:43 <planetmaker> krinn, do you make sure that the plurals and cases for each translation are correct? Correctly defined in the respective language files?
10:16:16 <planetmaker> or do you just accept it to break (unknown to you and the translators)?
10:16:49 <krinn> the plural form works, but if you speak about "define plural form", gamescript fail with that
10:17:52 <krinn> so you can do {P "" s} in gr_GB and openttd handle it, but if you add how plural should work in it, openttd reject the file (or i made something wrong, but last time i have just try on a copy of openttd lang file itself)
10:19:48 <peter1138> Bah, wish my ADSL was working :S
10:25:12 <planetmaker> krinn, for example. And eints will simply create the correct headers for you for new translations which people start (when using eints to start it)
10:25:40 <planetmaker> or your battling with the invalid utf chars etc
10:25:46 <planetmaker> that's a thing of the past then
10:26:17 <planetmaker> but if updating english.txt with credits is more work than updating english.txt and all other language files with credits, then I'm out of arguments
10:26:37 <planetmaker> Besides that I usually put translation credits in the readme. Easy that way :)
10:27:15 <krinn> credits are given from the gs main page
10:27:38 <krinn> :) you knows nobody read the readme, that's why it's name "readme"
10:28:10 <Xaroth|Work> people are idiots, it is known.
10:29:06 <krinn> well, i suppose they just prefer click and go then having to read something. And my readme is in english only (i'm not even sure i have one)
10:29:37 <krinn> ok, checked, i have one
10:41:47 <krinn> planetmaker, did you check the reject in english.txt with plural and no in other language trouble ?
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11:20:19 <planetmaker> I didn't check anything. Should I have checked anything, krinn ?
11:22:34 <planetmaker> krinn, I see that many of your strings use a leading space. I believe that's wrong to do
11:22:59 <planetmaker> s/: /:/g on lang/*.txt
11:23:50 <planetmaker> not actually many. But all
11:29:04 <NGC3982> Am i unable to set the order condition: "Stay for hundred days OR wait for full load"?
11:29:35 <NGC3982> Or do i set a 100 day stay, and then a skip to "travel" order when load is full? Should that work? :>
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12:00:00 <__ln___> "You can recover from Microsoft and its suppliers only direct damages up to U.S. $5.00."
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12:57:59 <andythenorth> V453000: BAD FEATURE: wrong capacities
12:58:41 <V453000> also what do you mean by that
12:58:56 <V453000> cutey 60t capacity per 8/8? :P
12:58:57 <andythenorth> capacities should be 20, 30, 40 units
12:59:05 <andythenorth> and then 50 or 60 for ‘big’ things
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12:59:24 <V453000> more than 40 per wagon is retarded for 200kmh train
12:59:25 <andythenorth> my sets have had too many 37t or 9t or whatever
12:59:33 <andythenorth> V453000: depends
12:59:35 <V453000> that isnt an issue in my eyes
12:59:57 <andythenorth> I like, e.g. double deck cars with 60, but slower loading or whatever
13:00:07 <andythenorth> loading speeds are a BAD FEATURE
13:00:11 <V453000> slower loading doesnt really hurt much
13:00:22 <V453000> loading speeds are excellent, trains not documenting them properly is bad :)
13:00:27 <andythenorth> also the cargo payment rate adjustment is a BAD FEATURE
13:01:31 <andythenorth> also railtype power adjustment is a BAD FEATURE
13:02:21 <V453000> train gaining moar powah on railtype X?
13:02:48 <andythenorth> and how does user find out about it?
13:03:11 <andythenorth> also pissy vehicle progression ladder is a BAD FEATURE
13:03:12 <V453000> AI can fuck off and user gets taught in the purchase menu
13:03:34 <andythenorth> progression should be BIG STUFF
13:04:15 <andythenorth> for example in Iron Horse, the fast passenger loco does 100mph
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13:04:20 <andythenorth> and the next one does *100mph*
13:04:24 <andythenorth> so it’s much better
13:04:35 <andythenorth> but one is *steam* and one is *diesel*
13:04:37 <andythenorth> which is very important
13:04:52 <V453000> does it at least get more power, capacity, anything? :D
13:05:08 <andythenorth> ok, so it is 1750hp vs. 2700hp, and it’s 8/8 instead of 12/8 :P
13:05:13 <andythenorth> but you spoil my trolling :(
13:05:30 * andythenorth is just dicking around waiting for lunch
13:06:38 * V453000 noticed something along those lines
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15:04:26 <andythenorth> V453000: BAD FEATURE: using real world stats
15:08:50 <planetmaker> given the funky definition of length in OpenTTD, I don't even know what 'real world stats' would be :)
15:23:36 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: typically that's a "error code was lost somewhere, so we resolved error code 0"
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15:25:03 <krinn> planetmaker> I didn't check anything. Should I have checked anything, krinn ? <- yep maybe, why some strings are reject in english.txt while ok in other language ?
15:26:09 <planetmaker> please be more specific, krinn
15:28:31 <krinn> check STR_AWARD_OWN_MULTI
15:30:25 <krinn> french/german is tag correct, englihs is tag invalid
15:32:11 <planetmaker> Does GS allow 16 parameters for a single string?
15:32:45 <planetmaker> I seem to recall from NewGRFs that strings do not allow more than 8 parameters
15:32:56 <krinn> don't remember, checking
15:33:33 <alluke> heqs doesn't allow clay on dumpers
15:34:10 <planetmaker> hm... is it {NUM} not {COMMA}?
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15:37:05 <planetmaker> krinn, same format as OpenTTD doesn't say about parameter number :)
15:37:47 <planetmaker> actually the best description of OpenTTD's text format actually is eints' documentation
15:38:04 <krinn> i don't get the {COMMA} vs {NUM}
15:38:17 <krinn> doc says {COMMA} = 10,000 {NUM} = 10000
15:38:51 <planetmaker> the difference is COMMA vs NUM :)
15:38:56 <krinn> companies cannot be bigger than 15, so {NUM} or {COMMA}...
15:38:56 <planetmaker> different spelling :D
15:40:00 <planetmaker> but obviously your GS works with {NUM}, it does, yes?
15:40:14 <planetmaker> so that should be an allowed tag
15:40:26 <planetmaker> but eints probably does consider it invalid currently
15:40:37 <krinn> well, for 2 yes, for german i suppose
15:41:19 <planetmaker> no, no. Only consider english.txt
15:41:23 <krinn> it's accept in openttd, i don't know visually if it's ok for german, and eints accept it in german and french
15:41:40 <planetmaker> german.txt and french.txt are alright as they depend on the base language and *require* the same tags as the base language.
15:42:00 <krinn> ah, no validation on other than english.txt right ?
15:42:13 <planetmaker> that's the canonical form of tags which are considered
15:42:33 <Eddi|zuHause> i still think that eints is struggling with the plural
15:42:34 <planetmaker> as in principle you might - at least for NewGRFs - define your own tags
15:42:46 <planetmaker> I don't think that's the case, Eddi|zuHause
15:43:06 <Eddi|zuHause> because almost all failed strings have plural tags, and no plural tag is in an accepted string
15:43:31 <Eddi|zuHause> but it would really help if eints actually gave an error message
15:43:33 <krinn> well, if number < 1000 {COMMA} == {NUM} no (for human), and for computer using {NUM} < {COMMA}
15:43:38 <planetmaker> All failed strings have {NUM} vs {COMMA}
15:43:57 <planetmaker> and {COMMA} is for NewGRFs, so eints might just not consider {NUM}
15:44:18 <Eddi|zuHause> but some accepted strings have {NUM} as well
15:44:27 <planetmaker> the plural in that form works in dozens of projects
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15:46:22 <alluke> s dumpers can't transport firs clay?
15:46:35 <planetmaker> krinn, best idea probably is to bug alberth when he returns
15:48:30 <andythenorth> alluke: because no-one has fixed that bug
15:52:01 <andythenorth> someone could fix it
15:52:04 <andythenorth> it’s probably easy
15:52:31 <Eddi|zuHause> if only there were someone who understands cargo classes
15:53:27 <andythenorth> if only my HEQS compile worked :P
15:53:48 <andythenorth> actually I could probably just fix the code and push, see what the compile farm does
15:55:12 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I can’t remember how nfo works, cba to look up the spec
15:55:23 <andythenorth> lines 10, 14, 15
15:55:29 <andythenorth> are what needs changed
15:56:57 <Eddi|zuHause> remove prop 16, use the include/exclude cargo lists
15:59:30 <krinn> that eints should read and display the #comment on previous line of the string param. 1/ i add sometimes comment for translator on it 2/ it would allow eints to support some #$$$$$$$ tag for "don't translate next line"
16:00:52 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so remove line 10, add two lines: 24 00; 25 NN XX YY ZZ ...
16:01:15 <andythenorth> just let it refit bulk I reckon
16:01:16 <Eddi|zuHause> where XX, YY, ZZ are index of cargo translation table, and NN is the number of entries listed
16:02:09 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: this is on CTT labels?
16:02:17 <andythenorth> I can probably just set a class
16:02:22 <andythenorth> maybe I have to go the docs :P
16:02:27 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no, position in CTT
16:02:42 <andythenorth> yeah, sorry, same thing in my head
16:02:45 <planetmaker> I don't think it should spam the comments to translators
16:03:06 <andythenorth> oh maybe clay has sheltered set or something
16:03:14 <planetmaker> and as discussed earlier: strings can all be translated, krinn. Everyone in your GS
16:03:21 <planetmaker> and they all need it
16:03:48 <planetmaker> and having {ORANGE}{STRING} "translated" doesn't hurt
16:04:06 <krinn> nah, you don't translate name
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16:04:22 * andythenorth is happy that merges are now allowed
16:04:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it already includes bulk
16:04:38 <andythenorth> it excludes something
16:05:19 <andythenorth> not having a build makes this a bit of a guessing game :P
16:05:31 <Eddi|zuHause> "CLAY Clay 0210 Bulk covered/sheltered"
16:06:01 <andythenorth> hmm HEQS isn’t building on push
16:06:14 <planetmaker> krinn, and the "no-translate-string" thing was extensively discussed. The use cases are marginal at best. And definitely not worth any trouble to implement
16:06:44 <krinn> yep agree, could dub {ORANGE}{STRING}
16:07:02 <planetmaker> the translators have a 'copy string' button. it's easy
16:07:06 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I added push to .devzone for HEQS
16:07:10 <andythenorth> will that get picked up?
16:07:34 <planetmaker> if you added it as described, it will
16:07:45 <planetmaker> probably in around an hour, if changes are made
16:08:00 * andythenorth might go and do some proper work
16:08:08 <andythenorth> either I fixed HEQS, or broke it
16:08:30 <andythenorth> alluke: as the reporter of the bug, you can test the ‘fix'
16:08:35 <andythenorth> when it turns up
16:08:35 <planetmaker> as you would have seen in .devzone channel
16:08:48 <planetmaker> compile failure. twice
16:08:56 <andythenorth> bloody jenkins :)
16:09:22 <andythenorth> oh yeah, you have to maintain counts and stuff in nfo
16:09:34 <andythenorth> and I don’t have renum to tell me
16:09:56 <planetmaker> it fails on missing definition in Makefile, I think
16:10:16 <planetmaker> just see the log :)
16:10:18 <alluke> i wonder how noone havent reported such obvious bug earlier
16:10:53 <planetmaker> everybody though someone would do what anyone could do, thus noone did do
16:11:10 <andythenorth> well it’s now properly broken :)
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16:11:17 <andythenorth> I cba to fix it right now
16:11:30 <planetmaker> I need to fix my bike, too :)
16:11:36 <andythenorth> I might try and fix my HEQS compile later, but it’s end of life
16:11:39 <planetmaker> that's more important now, I'm afraid. Bloody puncture
16:11:50 <andythenorth> this is either the last HEQS fix, or the previous one was
16:11:57 <andythenorth> planetmaker: kevlar tyres?
16:12:10 <andythenorth> I got kevlar tyres in 2003 and have *never* had a puncture since
16:12:17 <andythenorth> I have blown off three valves
16:12:29 <andythenorth> and put a wire bead from the tyre through the tube
16:12:45 <andythenorth> but I have also pulled 4 cm industrial staples and pieces of broken glass out of the tyre
16:12:49 <andythenorth> with no puncture
16:13:12 <andythenorth> maybe HEQS is officially dead
16:15:52 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: r773 compiles here
16:16:10 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure if the local rev is the same as the global rev :p
16:16:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Änderung: 773:2ce0bc35f69b
16:16:34 <Eddi|zuHause> Nutzer: planetmaker <planetmaker@openttd.org>
16:16:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Datum: Wed Feb 19 22:23:08 2014 +0100
16:16:37 <Eddi|zuHause> Zusammenfassung: Cleanup: [Makefile] Remove unneeded pieces from old version(s)
16:17:28 <andythenorth> that looks a bit behind
16:17:51 <Eddi|zuHause> that is right before your changes, yes
16:19:40 <andythenorth> maybe that should be in a newgrf :P
16:20:54 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: why does r774 change so much?
16:28:43 <alluke> had to build a rail trough city to get the clay
16:31:07 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: :o
16:31:14 <andythenorth> I didn’t diff before pushing
16:31:20 <andythenorth> must be historical crap
16:31:35 <andythenorth> I haven’t touched or built HEQS for ~18 months
16:32:00 <Eddi|zuHause> weirdly, r775 build here, with sed errors on readme stuff
16:32:10 <Eddi|zuHause> but r777 reports renum errors
16:32:27 <andythenorth> yeah I think that’s a bad property count somewhere
16:32:43 <andythenorth> can’t even find the log on jenkins right now
16:32:57 <andythenorth> looks like I should have pushed 774 in a branch :P
16:33:27 <Eddi|zuHause> /!!Warning (99): No more data was expected. Found 28 bytes, expected 25 bytes.
16:34:38 <andythenorth> that is probably in template_mining_trucks_commonaction0.tnfo
16:34:44 <andythenorth> probably \b8 is worng
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16:34:55 <andythenorth> my nfo skills are rusty to the extreme
16:35:11 <Eddi|zuHause> why did you even change that?
16:35:41 <andythenorth> I removed a prop 16
16:36:21 <Eddi|zuHause> + 1A 00 // Refit cost, using 25% of the purchase price cost base
16:37:54 <Eddi|zuHause> so just roll back r777
16:38:07 <Eddi|zuHause> because you added a property and forgot to increase it :p
16:39:15 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, this was weirdly commented out before
16:39:17 <andythenorth> for no obvious reason, that property was previously there, but commented
16:39:17 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, if you look at the jenkins output: heqs builds. But the build fails due to sed errors on readme
16:39:22 <andythenorth> looking like it was an accident
16:39:40 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yes, same for me
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16:40:20 <Eddi|zuHause> there were some weird makefile changes in r774
16:40:27 <Eddi|zuHause> probably should just roll them back
16:41:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't suppose i have push rights for heqs :p
16:42:38 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so roll back r777 and the makefile changes of r774, then it should build
16:46:52 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you just gained rights :P
16:47:12 <Eddi|zuHause> mäh..., now i have to actually do stuff :p
16:48:20 <andythenorth> my feeling exactly :P
16:48:49 <planetmaker> I haven't exactly installed the acl extension on the DevZone yet. So...
16:48:59 <andythenorth> I have been using this heqs bug to motivate working on my RV set
16:49:09 <andythenorth> as I couldn’t easily win a NCG GS game :P
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16:49:40 <andythenorth> I had to build actual trains
16:50:43 <Eddi|zuHause> is there an official hg way to remove a commit?
16:51:08 <Eddi|zuHause> other than "you just created another head"
16:56:18 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: should be building now
16:58:01 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, hg backout
17:00:25 <planetmaker> __ln___, but it's not April 1st!
17:02:38 <krinn> does this mean bald korean will be execute ?
17:03:35 <__ln___> there are no bald koreans
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17:50:49 <andythenorth> my HEQS build is sulking about clang I think
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18:17:02 <djura-san> so how do you actually use sawmills? I just place them after founding and then what?
18:17:14 <djura-san> I see no forest around it
18:18:07 <planetmaker> click one. See what it wants
18:18:12 <planetmaker> Usually that will be wood
18:18:20 <planetmaker> Thus: Deliver wood
18:18:53 <djura-san> How can i deliver wood to it?
18:18:54 <planetmaker> also learn about the industry chain view. As accessible from the industry view
18:19:00 <djura-san> That is my question actually
18:19:11 <planetmaker> build a station near it.
18:19:23 <planetmaker> similar like you ship coal from a mine to the powerplant
18:19:30 <planetmaker> you ship wood from a forest to a sawmill
18:19:32 <djura-san> I noticed that station accepts wood now.
18:19:57 <djura-san> planetmaker: and another stupid question: to make the train get wood from forest...
18:20:17 <djura-san> thank you planetmaker
18:20:28 <planetmaker> a forest is an industry. Not just a random tree on the map :)
18:20:43 <planetmaker> use the minimap to search for them
18:20:52 <djura-san> Okay, i dont get it then. What if i have no forests?
18:21:00 *** Pereba_ is now known as Pereba
18:21:01 <glx> the green spots on the green map ;)
18:21:03 <planetmaker> then the sawmill is pointless to have :)
18:21:21 <djura-san> Okay then. Thank you.
18:21:50 <planetmaker> there can be terrain conditions where it's very hard to have one. In arctic they need to be above snow line and on somewhat flat terrain
18:21:57 <planetmaker> thus if you have no snow, then no forests
18:22:57 <djura-san> and if i select "founding industries only" at the begining, no fun to play it with industries at all :)
18:24:50 <djura-san> One more question: is it possible to remove building texture or somehow hide it so i can just see clean roads? Poking using sense is not very productive nor good
18:25:04 <planetmaker> press ctrl+x. Adjust settings
18:25:27 <djura-san> this is so awesome. THank you planetmaker
18:25:27 <planetmaker> furtheron, just use x to toggle transparency / invisibiltiy
18:25:43 <djura-san> even more awesome :D
18:29:39 <djura-san> older game saves are usable on never versions right? Is there something that i should be aware of in case of migrating from version to version?
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18:32:38 <Eddi|zuHause> unless you used custom patchpacks, all you have to do is install and start the new version
18:39:46 <djura-san> may i ask how to delete that leftover of road turn without destroying the whole tile? I dont wanna rebuild it again so that it stays as city property and not mine
18:40:17 <Eddi|zuHause> press "r" while building
18:41:17 <Eddi|zuHause> works with most build tools
18:41:17 <djura-san> thank you. YOu just saved ma 1 road tile that dont have to pay
18:41:42 <djura-san> I will keep that in mind Eddi|zuHause
18:42:35 <Eddi|zuHause> especially useful when you want to remove a bus stop
18:46:13 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26429 /trunk/src/lang (7 files) (2014-03-26 18:46:00 UTC)
18:46:14 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:46:15 <DorpsGek> catalan - 1 changes by juanjo
18:46:16 <DorpsGek> croatian - 1 changes by Tifached
18:46:17 <DorpsGek> luxembourgish - 1 changes by Phreeze
18:46:18 <DorpsGek> polish - 25 changes by Kilian
18:46:19 <DorpsGek> russian - 2 changes by Lone_Wolf
18:46:20 <DorpsGek> slovak - 2 changes by Milsa
18:46:21 <DorpsGek> spanish - 3 changes by juanjo
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19:02:40 <andythenorth> V453000: I think everyone has misunderstood your question :(
19:02:46 <andythenorth> I am specially awesome
19:04:25 <Phreeze> that's what your mum said
19:04:39 <V453000> andythenorth: I am not sure if the retards even realize that I actually already created such set 2 years ago :D
19:04:46 <andythenorth> phreeze yeah, your mum told me my mum had said
19:05:10 <V453000> but yeah, you misunderstand the logic of forums, aim is not to reply sensibly, but to reply
19:05:50 <andythenorth> Phreeze: let’s not raise the game on ‘your mum'
19:06:08 <frosch123> does that mean you do not consider my concerns about train sets not supporting autorefit?
19:06:28 <andythenorth> does your mum consider them?
19:06:37 <andythenorth> oh, what has started :(
19:06:45 <frosch123> need to google that
19:06:54 <andythenorth> it’s an absolute rule in England that when someone starts ‘your mum’ you have to keep it going
19:06:59 <andythenorth> your mum keeps going
19:07:10 <andythenorth> Phreeze: can you declare game over or something
19:14:33 <andythenorth> V453000: I kind of want to argue in that thread just to provide a counter-point :P
19:14:48 <andythenorth> it’s really annoying when everyone is nice and appreciative and reasonable
19:14:50 <V453000> andythenorth: now the idea is just to let them rage
19:14:55 <V453000> the more they rage the better
19:17:27 <andythenorth> V453000: if I post my thoughts it might cause trouble
19:17:45 <andythenorth> “nearly every train newgrf I have tried is not as good as the default vehicles"
19:20:25 <frosch123> i wouldn't actually agree with that :p
19:20:33 <frosch123> the default vehicles are actually quite bad
19:21:08 <andythenorth> they’re pretty good if you don’t use FIRS
19:21:26 <frosch123> you need at least ogfx+ stuff to add refitting instread of single cargo
19:21:33 <andythenorth> I had opengfx+ forced on me by MP games
19:21:40 <andythenorth> I would never have chosen it willingly
19:21:44 <V453000> frosch123: there are more than TEN vehicle generations. NONE of the newGRFs has that
19:21:45 <andythenorth> but it’s actually pretty good fun
19:22:08 <V453000> in no newGRF, you never autoreplace ten times
19:22:09 <andythenorth> oh maglev and crap
19:22:19 <V453000> well 9 in temperate without monorail or maglev
19:22:22 <V453000> not even counting that
19:22:39 <frosch123> V453000: you are mixiing issues
19:23:10 <V453000> it is one of the most important aspects of a train set
19:23:12 <frosch123> you should separate between "years between generations" and "total timeframe"
19:23:13 <V453000> how many vehicles it provides
19:23:29 <V453000> I didnt say anything about timeframe
19:23:29 <frosch123> most sets only work for < 80 years, which is too few for 10 generations
19:23:46 <V453000> not my problem if they still provide e.g. 200 vehicles
19:23:59 <V453000> and 195 of them are worthless
19:24:09 <andythenorth> there are only 68 years in default between the trains
19:25:01 <frosch123> well, i guess it boils down to people playing ottd as a game, and people using ottd as a drawing program to create sceneries
19:25:18 <frosch123> there are people who use ottd only to create screenshots
19:25:24 * andythenorth compares default and IH
19:25:25 <frosch123> and then ask what cargodist is for :p
19:25:39 <frosch123> cargodist does not add anything to screenshots!
19:25:45 <frosch123> it's a terrible feature
19:25:52 <V453000> cargodist doesnt add anything to normal gameplay either.........
19:26:07 <frosch123> depends no your "normal" :p
19:26:15 <andythenorth> normal is point to point lines
19:26:20 <andythenorth> as per original TTD
19:26:25 <frosch123> autorefit is a workaround for not having consist replacement
19:26:26 <andythenorth> don’t use signals, they are broken
19:26:33 <andythenorth> build as many tracks as trains
19:27:11 <andythenorth> IH has 20 locos, default has 14
19:27:23 <andythenorth> IH starts 1870, default 1925
19:27:27 <frosch123> rct has no junctions, does it?
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19:33:44 * andythenorth busy busy removing vehicles
19:34:07 <andythenorth> V453000: how many vehicles in NUTS now?
19:34:32 <frosch123> something like 10-20 per class
19:34:38 <frosch123> with around 10 classes
19:34:48 <V453000> 44 final train choice
19:34:52 <V453000> (different usage trains)
19:35:05 <V453000> some even have 4 per class only
19:35:37 <frosch123> hmm, indeed, only 9
19:35:49 <alluke> combined roadset doesn't work on 1.4.0 rc1
19:37:07 <alluke> its green at the bottom of grf list and i still get ogfx roads
19:37:49 <andythenorth> V453000: delete like 50%? Deleting is much more fun than making...
19:38:07 <V453000> andythenorth: solved that by making expiring vehicles work
19:38:17 <andythenorth> how did you do it?
19:38:18 <V453000> now removing all wagons and trying to supplement them with one ultimate wagon
19:38:22 <andythenorth> I have failed so far at expiring
19:38:44 <frosch123> you need to enable expiration in advanced settings :p
19:38:53 <V453000> it is made so that 1-3 trains per class are available, not more
19:39:01 <V453000> oh yeah plus that obviously
19:39:30 <andythenorth> I had some formula to remove the old model when new model appears
19:39:33 <andythenorth> but it didn’t work
19:39:53 <V453000> that would be helpful
19:40:31 <andythenorth> specifying a replacement model (by ID) in action 0 would be helpful
19:40:36 <andythenorth> then AI and OTTD could sort it out
19:40:41 <V453000> Also, when I started using nuts with expiring vehicles, I dicovered that e.g. most RV newGRFs are totally useless in year 2100
19:40:51 <andythenorth> V453000: I think you can shorten that statement
19:40:54 <frosch123> andythenorth: play ttd :p
19:41:05 <andythenorth> “most RV newGRFs are totally useless”
19:41:12 <Eddi|zuHause> <V453000> frosch123: there are more than TEN vehicle generations. NONE of the newGRFs has that <-- one of the design goals for CETS was a new vehicle generation every 10 years [which means 10 generations over 100 years]
19:41:17 <V453000> :D well yeah but in useless here I mean there arent any vehicles, even for my hopes like egrvts ._.
19:41:57 <frosch123> heqs is the only useful one, except it has the usual andy problems
19:42:05 <frosch123> almost no intro dates
19:42:21 <V453000> Eddi|zuHause: tell me when CETS is done :P
19:42:26 <frosch123> maybe that is andys problem
19:42:33 <andythenorth> what is no intro dates in HEQS? :o
19:42:41 <frosch123> most vehicles are available all the time, so there are too many to pick from
19:42:53 <andythenorth> when playing are you?
19:42:56 <frosch123> whenever i play heqs i have 5 of 6 trams already available
19:43:02 <frosch123> am i playing it wrong? :p
19:43:04 <andythenorth> there are too many trams :P
19:43:14 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: CETS is "done" if you don't care about graphics :)
19:43:41 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: i'm sure you'll find something to complain about
19:45:12 <Eddi|zuHause> <alluke> combined roadset doesn't work on 1.4.0 rc1 <-- iirc the bridge part of combroads is broken, disable it (parameter) and use newbridges.
19:45:37 <V453000> graphics are kind of the biggest part of work on a newGRF Eddi, sorry :D
19:46:36 <Eddi|zuHause> speaking of which, can i call pixeltool from python?
19:46:40 <andythenorth> maybe I have ‘solved’ an RV set this time
19:46:49 <andythenorth> I think this is 5th (?) attempt
19:46:53 <andythenorth> now just have to code it
19:46:59 <andythenorth> I have binned last week’s effort
19:47:47 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: what is it? PHP or JS?
19:48:07 <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't actually try it
19:48:09 <andythenorth> what do you want to do?
19:48:18 <andythenorth> you could write a python http app that makes calls to it?
19:48:23 <andythenorth> or just pass them to curl?
19:48:28 <Eddi|zuHause> throw a JSON at it and get an image out
19:48:45 <andythenorth> zeph has it hosted as a web service?
19:48:53 <Eddi|zuHause> or rather, throw 1000 JSONs at it
19:49:06 <andythenorth> maybe run your own version locally then :P
19:49:26 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm thinking something compile-farm-y
19:49:39 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it should be local code that is run
19:49:51 <andythenorth> I wonder if you can run Zeph’s JS in node?
19:50:02 <andythenorth> I know nothing about node, other than some aspects of it are a joke
19:50:05 <Eddi|zuHause> actually, just calling it from the makefile should do
19:50:21 <andythenorth> you have a JS execution environment?
19:51:02 <andythenorth> I am poking in the dark
19:51:40 <frosch123> it's runs client side
19:51:55 <frosch123> the http part is useless for python
19:52:00 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: the point is, which interpeter to call?
19:52:14 <frosch123> you need a not-browser-based javascript interpreter
19:52:27 <alluke> is there any grf for green ttd oneway arrows
19:52:37 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but i don't know any
19:53:03 <andythenorth> or you script phantom js to make calls and then save the output
19:53:08 <Eddi|zuHause> alluke: get them out of openttd.grf?
19:53:51 <frosch123> i always considered the green arrows the ugliest part of openttd.grf :p
19:53:59 <frosch123> the white arrows are much nicher
19:57:46 <Eddi|zuHause> alluke: in you openttd dev environment, look in media/extra_grf
19:58:26 <Eddi|zuHause> just give it a GRF-ID and you have a [newgrf-static]-able GRF
19:59:05 <alluke> where do i find openttd dev environment?
20:01:20 <Eddi|zuHause> alluke: you check out the source code
20:01:46 <frosch123> or put the md5sum of openttd.grf into opengfx.obg
20:06:52 <Eddi|zuHause> "seamonkey-venkman" <-- is that a ghostbusters reference?
20:16:22 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, so googling "venkman" only has ghostbusters as 3rd result
20:16:58 <frosch123> hmm, i never saw ghostbusters
20:17:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i had some ghostbusters episode as audio tape
20:17:25 <frosch123> i thought i knew all legendary movies
20:17:43 <Eddi|zuHause> not the movie, the cartoon series
20:17:55 <frosch123> there is a cartoon series?
20:18:12 <Eddi|zuHause> in which country did you grow up? :p
20:20:01 <frosch123> never heard about that one
20:20:21 <frosch123> but well, i wouldn't bother about a series anyway
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20:37:24 <andythenorth> what if it doesn’t?
20:38:33 <Pikka> then there will be no maglevs
20:38:58 <Pikka> but what of andy truck sim 2?
20:39:26 <andythenorth> Pikka: I had to delete most of it
20:39:32 <andythenorth> I made it and looked at it
20:39:50 <andythenorth> can’t be helped :P
20:40:02 <andythenorth> I’ll just make it again quickly now
20:48:10 <Pikka> Eddi|zuHause, silly melbournians
20:48:31 <Pikka> peter1138, articulated shipbusses
20:48:58 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: didn't you want to do newgrf presets? :)
20:50:41 <peter1138> Still confused where font-kerning came from :p
20:54:52 <frosch123> did you ponder pondering?
20:58:18 <Flygon> And don't diss it til you've visited the Dumb Ways To Die theme park!
20:58:47 <andythenorth> somewhat fixed it
20:58:56 <Flygon> Anyway. Off I go, on a rusty constantly-air compressing Comeng :U
21:00:05 <andythenorth> truck sim 2 remade
21:00:16 <andythenorth> need some names for stuff
21:00:40 <Pikka> "truck 1", "truck 2", etc
21:00:53 <andythenorth> oh you saw my tracking table :(
21:00:54 <Pikka> "small truck", "big truck"
21:01:14 <frosch123> if your set has 5 trucks you can name them pakka, pekka, pikka, pokka, pukka
21:01:40 <peter1138> Hmm, so many options, dunno what to set...
21:01:53 <Pikka> the TTO demo had "old plane", "old bus"
21:02:30 <Pikka> yep. but only the AI could build them, the player was limited to trains
21:02:36 <frosch123> sounds like "modern armor" in civ
21:03:07 <andythenorth> which of these is most correct?
21:03:34 <andythenorth> case is ‘small fast container truck'
21:03:35 <frosch123> speaking about realism: if you do not have tanks in 1400 in civ, you probably lose :p
21:05:19 <andythenorth> that’s reasonable
21:05:23 <Pikka> cabover semis are the bestests
21:06:13 <frosch123> comparing 2nd with 3rd, the toytruck is out of scale
21:07:03 <frosch123> the 1st one looks very wrong
21:07:56 <frosch123> it has a long front, is a one-piece without trailer, and has a weird small crane on the back, which has no use for a container
21:08:25 <Pikka> big exhaust pipe though
21:08:34 <frosch123> sometimes trucks have forklifts on the back, but for containers they are pointless as well
21:08:45 <andythenorth> it’s a sideloader container thing no?
21:09:30 <Pikka> I don't think so, I think it's just a crane
21:11:33 <Pikka> you know what we need, peter1138?
21:12:10 <Pikka> a flag which tells us whether the vehicle is loading or unloading. for tipper trucks and the like.
21:14:29 <frosch123> there is, but it is not exposed to newgrf
21:14:41 <Pikka> well yes, that's what I mean, frosch123 :)
21:14:58 <frosch123> should we just add it to var ff?
21:15:45 <andythenorth> what will I do with it?
21:15:52 <andythenorth> unloading spriteses?
21:16:42 <andythenorth> do I have to support losers whol play past 2020?
21:16:57 <frosch123> actualy even ttdp has that flag in that var
21:17:10 <andythenorth> if you haven’t won NCG or SV in 100 years with a 1920 start, then you are loser in my book of rules :P
21:17:16 <frosch123> need to figure out whether it is bit 0 or 1 though
21:17:43 <Pikka> I feel the same way, I mean who even uses maglevs? waste of time...
21:17:54 <andythenorth> you are making some?
21:18:08 <andythenorth> I am not even trolling now :P
21:18:30 <andythenorth> I’d rather spend the time making 150 years of good stuff, not 300 years of “I made too much, I got bored now"
21:18:38 <andythenorth> making = newgrfing :P
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21:27:43 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26430 trunk/src/newgrf_engine.cpp (2014-03-26 21:27:37 UTC)
21:27:44 <DorpsGek> -Feature(ette): Add vehicle modflag 1 (unloading in progress).
21:34:42 <andythenorth> who knows what evils authors will do with that :)
21:35:59 <andythenorth> so will the purchase menu gain auto-refit and loading speed info?
21:36:09 <andythenorth> or do I have to keep putting it in myself?
21:37:52 <frosch123> it will certainly not get autorefit info for a long time :)
21:38:12 <frosch123> loading speed info has the problem that there is no decent unit for it
21:38:20 <frosch123> "units per day" is silly :p
21:38:22 <andythenorth> it’s unitless :P
21:38:42 <frosch123> so, better put in some custom text like "fast" or "very fast"
21:38:54 <andythenorth> what limits autorefit?
21:38:56 <andythenorth> it’s just a bool
21:39:07 <frosch123> you would want to know which cargos support it
21:39:11 <frosch123> which involves a lot of magic
21:39:14 <andythenorth> all of them have to
21:39:17 <frosch123> esp. for articulated vehicles
21:39:40 <frosch123> so i doubt it will happen without vehicle sandboxing
21:40:09 <andythenorth> I was just proposing reading the flag :P
21:40:21 <andythenorth> looked like 1 or 0
21:40:32 <andythenorth> or 1 AND 0 I guess for articulated consists :(
21:40:46 <Pikka> andythenorth: but why would you have some vehicles autorefittable and some not? ;)
21:41:23 <andythenorth> sounds like Doing A Wrong
21:41:30 <andythenorth> Being A Silly Sausage
21:41:36 <Pikka> I mean, I would, I'm sure UKRS2 does
21:41:43 <Pikka> and only allows certain cargos too
21:41:49 <Pikka> but that's because UKRS2 is terrible
21:42:03 <andythenorth> actually I think I made a combined pax-mail coach which the pax bit doesn’t autorefit
21:42:10 <andythenorth> just a little one
21:42:22 <Pikka> if autorefittability is a general feature of the set, and all sets from now on, it doesn't really need to be in the buy menu :)
21:44:32 <andythenorth> Pikka: you bodged
21:45:35 <frosch123> so, where are my tipper trucks and train lorries?
21:46:28 <frosch123> V453000: i think ducks should show different graphics depeding on whether vehicles are entering or leaving them
21:47:05 <andythenorth> 4 container trucks or 3?
21:47:09 <andythenorth> 4 tipper trucks or 3?
21:47:33 <andythenorth> if I do 4, then I get 40 trucks in total
21:47:38 <andythenorth> 40 is a multiple of 8
21:47:48 <andythenorth> otherwise I have 36
21:47:51 <andythenorth> not multiple of 8
21:47:53 <frosch123> make a double decker truck with two containers on top of each other
21:48:04 <andythenorth> frosch123: considering it
21:48:14 <Pikka> something about tunnels
21:49:15 <Pikka> those must be fun on a windy day
21:49:17 <andythenorth> Pikka: 864 is obviously silly
21:49:25 <andythenorth> why would you suggest such a thing? o_O
21:49:40 <frosch123> at what height is their barycenter?
21:49:40 <Pikka> because it's a multiple of 8
21:49:54 <andythenorth> Pikka: and what kind of idiot needs multiples of 8 in their set?
21:51:03 <Pikka> this page clearly states "for empty containers"
21:51:12 <Pikka> double-stack container wagons are a big fat phony
21:51:17 <andythenorth> I was hoping you wouldn’t notice :(
21:51:26 <Pikka> they still must be fun on a windy day
21:51:27 <andythenorth> my set is very focussed on realism
21:51:36 <andythenorth> empty is more fun?
21:51:36 <frosch123> V453000: also ducks should balance some cargo on their head or bill
21:52:27 <Pikka> do you have your ducks in a row, frosch123?
21:53:50 <Pikka> monorails and maglevs are so boring... no bogies, no pantographs, no exhausts or other fiddly bits
21:54:39 <frosch123> i like monorails because they are so plain and non-busy
21:54:47 <frosch123> never liked maglev though
21:55:24 <andythenorth> Pikka: do the lego monorail
21:56:16 <Pikka> actually my monorail ended up looking like a MRT or something... it's high-capacity rather than high-speed
21:56:30 <Pikka> I only did one passenger monorail because monorails are boring
21:56:47 <Pikka> maglev will have container wagons and suchlike
21:57:05 <frosch123> some bridge set had a super simple monorail bridge
21:57:15 <frosch123> no pillars just the rail crossing the deep
21:57:24 <frosch123> unrealistic, but cool :)
21:57:47 <alluke> 1922 crates of engineering supplies
21:57:57 <alluke> where in earth do i shove those
21:58:02 <frosch123> waiting? or production per month?
21:58:23 <Pikka> shove them down mines, alluke
21:58:42 <alluke> i dont have enough mines nearby
21:59:22 <frosch123> there is no limit how much you can dump into one, in there?
21:59:24 <alluke> atm theyre going into one clay pit and two dredging sites
21:59:40 <Pikka> andythenorth, the lunar train (now in OpenGFX Mars) was vaguely based on the Futuron monorail...
22:00:08 <andythenorth> is this ‘full FIRS’?
22:00:11 <andythenorth> full FIRS is stupid
22:00:15 <alluke> theyre already producing so much stuff its hard to transport them all
22:01:21 <alluke> i have one train carrying 828 tons of clay trough a city
22:01:55 <andythenorth> you go from no supplies to too many supplies
22:02:16 <Pikka> could always use cargodist ;]
22:02:21 <frosch123> hmm, i remember some patch for adjusting them
22:03:52 <alluke> two million liter trains carrying chemicals outta harbour
22:04:30 <andythenorth> it’s best played with a GS like NoCarGoal or SV
22:06:08 <andythenorth> I should put the passenger crap in
22:06:13 <andythenorth> do we even need passenger RVs?
22:07:33 <Pikka> yes we do, because we create proper networks in our town to transport passengers to the station, rather than just stationwalking
22:08:41 <Pikka> yes, because who's going to make a complimentary bus set?
22:08:49 <andythenorth> so have you got a HOVses sprite I can borrow>
22:09:04 <andythenorth> it’s placeholder
22:12:06 <Pikka> I have some old ones of dan's
22:13:26 <andythenorth> are they on internets?
22:14:13 <Pikka> also, you could always go down the zbase path and just add windows to a truck and call it a bus. ;)
22:14:14 <andythenorth> they’ll do nicely
22:40:44 <andythenorth> it’s 2 too many imho
22:41:01 <andythenorth> once you have tram lines, you don’t want to replace them all with buseses?
22:41:41 <Pikka> and AIs make a mess with them
22:45:32 <andythenorth> bye Pikka and other peoples
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23:49:18 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, using the CF to call on the pixeltool could actually work
23:49:36 <planetmaker> the URL is fixed for pixeltool and json and curl might work
23:49:51 <planetmaker> feel free to experiment :)
23:50:08 <Eddi|zuHause> that feels extremely weird
23:50:20 <Eddi|zuHause> also, i probably want to make changes to pixeltool :)
23:55:07 <planetmaker> giving you a fork of it would not be hard :)
23:55:24 <planetmaker> or maybe even access to it. Though you then talk about that to Zephyris
continue to next day ⏵
