IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-02-03
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00:52:32 <LordAro> did freenode just die for everyone else?
00:53:26 <slee> LordAro, appears nickserv is dead on freenode
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00:59:29 <glx> it worked for me 8 min ago
01:00:30 <slee> Connected. Now logging in......hangs for me right there
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01:01:44 <slee> prolly all the sport channels are jam packed for the game right now
01:04:08 <LordAro> seriously though, why is the internet dying tonight?
01:04:10 <Supercheese> (You Obviously Like Owls)
01:05:07 <LordAro> freenode is still broken for me :/
01:05:33 <glx> I'm using the webchat for now
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01:13:38 <LordAro> according to webchat, my bouncer has reconnected
01:13:38 <LordAro> but, my client doesn't seem to be picking this up
01:14:52 <glx> I've been ejected from webchat after my client regain
01:18:42 <LordAro> basically, freenode has completely fallen over, i think
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01:31:14 <slee> of the 4-way junctions listed on wiki, which is the most efficient?
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01:37:54 <Elyon> is this the apocalypse?
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02:12:29 <slee> bah, if you make trains 'realistic' and change slope speed, trains enter stations slower, if you set trains to original, they enter stations fast, but climb slopes slow...is there another setting i'm missing?
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02:38:21 <slee> ttdpatch.net....is this worth using?
02:46:07 <Elyon> TTDPatch is for TTD, and outdated
02:46:39 <slee> oh, i was reading an article in openttd about more control over train speed/dynamics and mentioned using the ttdpatch *shrug
02:46:51 <Elyon> well, ttdpatch is not for openttd :)
02:47:16 <slee> is there something for openttd for more control of train dynamics?
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08:41:22 <Elyon> note to self: shift-right by 0x0100 is a tad too much usually
08:42:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm pretty sure shifting by more than the width is undefined behaviour
08:43:05 <peter1139> maybe when you get that 512 bit CPU
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08:57:40 <LordAro> freenode is still broken??
09:07:48 <Eddi|zuHause> random idea: when ignoring signals (first click), treat reservations as dead end (no safe waiting place), so train may pick another route
09:08:19 <Eddi|zuHause> if no other route to a safe waiting place is found, train will only start up on the second click, like now
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17:38:36 <Andreas> can anybody explain to me why this code does not work (lists seems to stay empty):
17:38:37 <Andreas> local sign_list = GSSignList();
17:38:37 <Andreas> if (sign_list.Count() != 0){
17:38:37 <Andreas> GSGoal.Question( 4, _company_id, GSText(GSText.STR_SIGNS), GSGoal.QT_INFORMATION, GSGoal.BUTTON_CLOSE) }
17:38:56 <Andreas> if I place a sign nothing happens
17:39:19 <Andreas> and yes, the function is run every few ticks
17:44:29 <Elyon> sorry, I can't help you with gamescripts
17:46:27 <Andreas> seems like the problem is with the list since changeing to == 0 does give a message
17:46:47 <Andreas> thus the if-statement and message part is working as it should
17:51:22 <frosch123> Andreas: the signlist is company aware
17:51:41 <frosch123> if you set no company mode you will only get the global gs signs
17:51:55 <frosch123> if you want all, you likely need to iterate over the companies
17:52:06 <Andreas> ah that would explain a lot :)
17:52:44 <Andreas> indeed I was placing the sign with a company, not a gs
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18:06:39 <Andreas> frosch123, probably a stupid question, but how do I switch back from company mode to gs mode?
18:07:05 <frosch123> you let the variable run out of scope
18:07:21 <frosch123> put all company scope stuff inside an extra { }
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18:11:08 <burty> Good evening, hope everyone is well on this wet and windy day... Other than the patch review channel (which looking at the logs seems to be mostly people joining and leaving) is there any guidance on how to make a patch trunkable? (also other than the coding guidelines)
18:12:23 <glx> we have a patche review channel ?
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18:12:50 <planetmaker> for when here is full, we do have #openttd.dev
18:13:21 <Alberth> coding guides are suprisingly hard to get right
18:13:44 <Alberth> also, implement the feature as a sequence of small steps, doing one change at a time
18:14:00 <Alberth> ie look at how small commits are
18:14:32 <Alberth> it also helps a LOT if you implement something that looks interesting to a dev
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18:15:38 <Andreas> looks interesting to a dev sounds a bit subjective and thus a bit hard to do :p
18:16:00 <Alberth> it is subjective, no doubt about that
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18:16:26 <Alberth> I haven't figured out a good way around that so far
18:16:44 * burty thinks my patch might not look so interesting
18:17:12 <Alberth> people generally think we are interested in everything, which is not really true at all
18:17:29 <planetmaker> "interesting for dev" is not necessarily the same as "interesting for player" :)
18:17:38 <Alberth> also, devs tend to have their own areas of interest
18:17:56 <Alberth> ie don't ask me anything train handling or newgrf :)
18:18:27 <burty> I agree there Alberth... I'm more interested in econmic aspects hence my Shares patch :)
18:18:31 <Alberth> it's areas I don't know enough about
18:19:25 <planetmaker> it's about the 5% share patch?
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18:19:55 <werebutt> eQualizer jonty-comp Ttech lobster Born_Acorn @orudge blathijs @Rubidium krushia @Terkhen Xaroth|Work Ammler dihedral djgummik1h Yexo V453000 +michi_cc Mek Noldo_ @DorpsGek
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18:20:31 <burty> Yeah amongst other things which I think *should* (now) be split down to smaller chunks. (It's something TheJosh started a couple of years ago)
18:21:23 <Alberth> I somewhat fail to see the relevance of the patch, tbh
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18:22:39 <Japa> Alberth, don't forget that if a dev is interested in something, he or she's probably already working on it his or herself.
18:23:00 <planetmaker> that's not true, Japa
18:23:16 <planetmaker> if I would work on everything I find interesting, the day would need 96 hours
18:23:37 <Andreas> I understand the point about things that look interesting, somebody has to make the choises and changeing merely for the purpose of change is usually not a good idea
18:23:41 <Alberth> not necessarily, topics are often so broad there is room for others
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18:23:55 <Andreas> by the way i beleive ottd allready has more functions than a sane person can use
18:24:01 <Alberth> also, if you make a patch, reviewing takes me less time than writing it myself
18:24:06 <Andreas> but that is a different matter
18:24:28 <Alberth> Andreas: just don't use parts, like groups :)
18:24:59 <burty> It seems like a lot of players don't see the relevance of the patch... The 5% part is probably irrelavnt but I think that the rest of what I've got planned/done is more useful/relevant... E.G. The dividends meaning that shares become more useful in MP and the next stage is to make it so someone has to buy the share when you sell... Hope that makes sense
18:25:36 <Alberth> I can see the idea in MP
18:25:40 <planetmaker> does it have the option to not sell shares?
18:25:54 <planetmaker> because having to pay divident without wanting to... I don't see
18:26:10 <Andreas> the problem with dividends imo is that in the end it would be 'free money' for the one owning the shares right?
18:26:13 <Alberth> however, it may be better to first develop it further, and test the idea
18:26:33 <Pinkbeast> I don't think it really works without selling shares replacing loans as the principal means by which you raise capital.
18:26:44 <Pinkbeast> ... which is quite a radical change.
18:26:51 <Alberth> ^ interesting thought :)
18:26:58 <burty> Yes planetmaker it does have the option to enable/disable to selling of shares
18:27:13 <Pinkbeast> Alberth: Well, it's Railroad Tycoon 3, basically. :-)
18:27:25 <planetmaker> we have that option to disable them so far already, I think
18:27:29 <Alberth> it's ok to steal good ideas :)
18:27:37 <planetmaker> as it's free money for those who anyway have money
18:27:58 <Alberth> but just another source of money doesn't add much imho
18:28:10 <Alberth> replacement could be a nice idea
18:28:11 <burty> Pinkbeast that was what my friend suggested and I was thinking that it might be the way to go as that was a planned idea to make it so the seller gets the money for the shares so you can raise capital
18:28:13 <Andreas> burty, over what part are you planning to pay the dividends? income? profit?
18:28:51 <Pinkbeast> burty: Well, in RRT3, the player is an individual tycoon, and tycoons own shares; companies don't own shares in each other. It's a very different game.
18:29:29 <burty> Planetmaker we have the option at global level, I've made it so companies can individually toggle it... Andreas At the moment it's done on company value (no real logic on that one)
18:29:50 <Pinkbeast> I would make it on something other than company value.
18:30:01 <burty> Pinkbeast that is one issue I think we may have with the ability for OpenTTD mp to have many clients per company
18:30:07 <Pinkbeast> A loan charges you a percentage of the loan, which turns into company value.
18:30:09 <Alberth> burty: imho you should run test games to see how it works in MP. You also probably want to move further to make it a useful feature. Once you have straightened out all the kinks, it could be interesting to add
18:30:38 <Alberth> although MP is a very small community
18:30:39 <Pinkbeast> If a share issue charges you a percentage of the profit you can make on company value, that means the take loan/sell shares issue is non-trivial.
18:31:54 <burty> SO you are saying that if your dividend payout is 100k then you get charged say 2k (example figures) so the recipent gets 98k?
18:32:39 <burty> SOrry I see what you mean now... So when you sell shares you get charged a % so you only recieve 98% of the share value?
18:33:00 <Pinkbeast> No. I mean on shares the dividend should be (percentage of company the shares represent) * (company profit or maybe capital gain this year) * (fixed fiddle factor)
18:33:57 <burty> Ahh ok I see. I shall be back soon, need to go have food :) thank you all for your input it's been very useful :D
18:34:06 <Pinkbeast> So if I'm unprofitable, I'd rather sell shares (if anyone wants them), paying no dividend. If I expect to make a large return on investment, I'll take a loan and pay the bank a flat 4% or whatever.
18:38:00 <Andreas> Alberth, depends what you call 'small', Btpro has an average of 40-50 simultanius clients connected every day
18:38:11 <Andreas> and that is jsut 1 community
18:38:32 <Alberth> you know there are an estimated 100,000 openttd users, right?
18:39:36 <Alberth> if you look at the server page, there are usually a few hundred online users
18:40:51 <Alberth> so my guess is that even if 100,000 is a gross overestimate, you're talking about a few percent at most
18:41:47 <Andreas> I know the ammount of players that play MP is realtively small when compared to the total ammount of players. But I also think that the players that do play mp are on average may more active
18:42:50 <Andreas> so if you view it in terms of "gameplay hours" the balance might be a lot different
18:42:56 <Alberth> could be, it's very hard to say
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19:14:25 <V453000> uhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm how do you remove a repository from your pc if you created it wrongly with tortoisehg?
19:15:24 <V453000> it says it is being used by other program, am assuming tortoisehg but I did tell tortoisehg to remove it from registry
19:15:38 <LordAro> Alberth: oh, totally ;)
19:17:09 <V453000> no idea how I did it :D
19:54:49 <Pikka> why is "town names" not on the map generation window, apart from no-one's put it there yet?
19:55:16 <planetmaker> you found exactly all reasons
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19:59:59 <Pikka> one could probably put the currency and rv driving side on there too. :o
20:02:52 <Andreas> imo those settings do not influence the map generation in itself while the other settings in world generation do...
20:03:48 <Andreas> + for new players the game has a steep enough learning curve as is, adding more buttons to the world generation will make this even worse I think
20:04:44 <planetmaker> currency, no. That's a per-user setting
20:04:58 <Pikka> okay. but town names, at least. :)
20:05:06 <planetmaker> driving side and townnames: yes
20:06:27 <frosch123> anyway, noone uses town names
20:06:35 <frosch123> they are broken in stable releases for ages or so :p
20:07:09 <V453000> frosch123: SHIT is the advanced sprite thing layout wtf awesome :0000000
20:07:17 <V453000> certainly unicorn power included
20:07:29 <frosch123> what are you doing with it?
20:07:50 <frosch123> i mean it does not support palette transitions with registers or so
20:08:28 <V453000> I actually have no idea :D station stuff
20:08:36 <V453000> I am not coding it, Elyon iz
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20:09:20 <frosch123> is he doing the nuts cargo sprites for chips?
20:10:19 <V453000> CATS Adaptive Train Stations
20:10:22 <V453000> means they adapt like hell
20:10:46 <frosch123> are you using chameleon for coding?
20:12:06 <V453000> is nuts for cats any better? :D
20:12:25 <Pikka> where are the screenshots? :D
20:13:13 <V453000> yeah that is all the sprites for flatbed cargoes
20:13:23 <V453000> being put on the platforms by code :000 I just draw the cargoes
20:14:20 <V453000> he even claims more features to come from that like multiple various cargoes on 1 tile
20:14:57 <planetmaker> I called that over-engineered today, V453000 ;)
20:15:22 <planetmaker> with 4 random bits, but requiring / using 11 is ... insane :D
20:15:38 <planetmaker> choice of 2048 per tile at least
20:15:44 <frosch123> can the animals be piled on stacks?
20:15:49 <frosch123> they are quite cubical
20:15:52 <V453000> well if it outputs the awesome AND I dont have to EVER touch the code, win-win? :D
20:15:57 <V453000> yeah they might stack frosch123
20:16:12 <frosch123> space efficient livestock
20:16:31 <frosch123> though you cannot easily cut round sausages from them
20:16:58 <Prof_Frink> Simple solution: Square sausage.
20:18:16 <V453000> pm do you think it could wreck cpu stuff?
20:18:51 <planetmaker> not too badly, I think
20:18:57 <planetmaker> most tiles aren't stations
20:19:32 <V453000> what the fecal matter is that frosch123
20:20:06 <planetmaker> never seen that :)
20:20:15 <frosch123> it's the "kebap animal"
20:21:29 <frosch123> it grows in that shape, in case you wondered about it
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20:23:57 <Pikka> not that I'm doing industries any time soon
20:24:01 <Pikka> but did I forget anything? :D
20:25:13 <andythenorth> you don't have a Stuff Mine
20:25:26 <Pikka> I'm getting valuables out of the ore mine
20:26:41 <andythenorth> shall we have a bet on who is the first person to point out that bricks aren't made from grvl?
20:26:49 <andythenorth> there has been a bit of that around recently
20:26:54 <andythenorth> mostly happening to george :P
20:27:04 <Pikka> I could change the name of either industry
20:27:29 <frosch123> 21 industries, 18 cargos?
20:27:47 <andythenorth> I'd just leave it as is - it's a honeypot for rivet counters
20:28:28 <andythenorth> do banks ship valuables to each other?
20:28:50 <andythenorth> and can I increase the total supply of valuables in game? o_O
20:29:10 <andythenorth> i.e. will they circulate the valuables received from mines?
20:29:17 <andythenorth> or do they lock them away? :P
20:29:24 <Pikka> no, they'll output based on town population :P
20:29:38 <Andreas> would be nice if you could make the brickworks make bricks that can only be shipped to towns that are growing
20:29:57 <Andreas> or the other way arround: require bricks to grow the town
20:30:12 <andythenorth> not the job of the industry newgrf :)
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20:30:31 <Pikka> also, "goods". you make "goods" out of stone
20:30:41 <Pikka> and then you make engineering supplies out of the goods
20:31:06 <andythenorth> is that good or bad?
20:31:08 <Andreas> oh well, I don't see a problem with the goods, because who can define what goods are? XD
20:31:09 <Pikka> you can make tractors out of gravel, right?
20:31:09 <andythenorth> I'm kind of fine with it
20:32:06 <andythenorth> there is no newgrf with nappies
20:32:15 <Pikka> sounds like a job for toyland
20:32:16 <andythenorth> yet it turns out they are a major commodity
20:32:28 * andythenorth considers a 'parenting' economy
20:32:46 <Andreas> I'm sure that tractor would increase production on any farm XD
20:32:53 <andythenorth> Pikka: only suggestion I have is to add a port
20:33:08 <andythenorth> it's amusing to short cut the chains
20:35:57 <frosch123> hmm, twitter looks different suddenly
20:38:24 <andythenorth> they've cut some of the chrome off
20:38:32 <andythenorth> and the menu bar is wider
20:41:20 <Ristovski> Who dares to highlight me
20:41:31 * Ristovski growls and returns to hibernation
20:43:29 <frosch123> 2.5 hours boot time?
20:44:16 * Ristovski morphs into a sharp pen and stabs Xaroth|Work
20:44:50 <Xaroth|Work> Bit hard to stab somebody if you have no means of generating momentum
20:46:23 <Ristovski> Xaroth|Work: I got that solved, don't worry
20:46:51 <Ristovski> Xaroth|Work: instead of stabbign you the old fashion way, I just teleport myself inside of you
20:46:55 <Ristovski> stabbing you like that
20:47:17 <Xaroth|Work> see, now that's plausible
20:48:35 * Ristovski uses the magic powers of Absinthe to teleport and morph into objects
20:49:40 *** Flygon__ is now known as Flygon
20:52:40 <slee> hello, my 2 track network isn't able to handle all the trains efficiently, so i'm guessing i need to go to a 3-4 track system? is there a term for this so i can research it and see how 3-4 track systems work?
20:53:54 <frosch123> it encodes track directions and empty tiles or so
20:55:41 <frosch123> stuff like "L_L_L_L10R_R_R_R" :p
20:56:09 <planetmaker> do you know the #openttdcoop wiki, slee ?
20:56:27 <slee> planetmaker, i've been to the site before
20:58:00 <frosch123> though personally i would recommmend to not build silly big junctions
20:58:19 <frosch123> imho the key to multiline junctions is to not make every line go to every output direction
20:58:38 <frosch123> but already use the train destination for sorting trains onto the lanes
20:59:27 <Alberth> I usually just lay a track next to the existing ones :)
20:59:32 <frosch123> there is no point in making 4 lane 4 way junction between A, B, C and D if there is no cargo flow from C to D
21:00:00 <frosch123> or yes alberth's approach: don't bother about the layout in advance, but just add tracks where trains queue
21:00:33 <frosch123> power to the asymmetry!
21:01:13 <Alberth> it's much more fun, as you need to do more rebuilding, and thinking (all junctions are unique)
21:02:00 <slee> 50 trains on that network, only getting slower as i add more
21:02:44 <frosch123> build more diagonal tracks :)
21:03:05 <andythenorth> build more canals
21:07:41 <Ristovski> ^ firefox with alot of plugins
21:10:10 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26294 trunk/src/newgrf_engine.cpp (2014-02-03 21:10:04 UTC)
21:10:11 <DorpsGek> -Change: [NewGRF] Make vehicle variable 61 return 'not available' instead of zero when using it in invalid callback contexts.
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21:36:55 <MNIM> Ristovski: stop browsing user submitted and do something productive, dammit!
21:37:36 <Ristovski> MNIM best spy #2014 award
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21:44:27 <MNIM> Ristovski: I have my ways.
21:44:39 <Ristovski> MNIM: aka looking at links and remembering you say it on reddit
21:45:57 <MNIM> (i had just managed to stop for the day)
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22:11:34 <Andreas> anybody with some gs experience still here?
22:14:29 *** sla_ro|master2 has quit IRC
22:17:21 <Andreas> game script in an OTTD context :)
22:20:44 <glx_> an old car in another context :)
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22:28:15 <LordAro> why isn't nickserv responding to me?
22:29:09 <Andreas> you were a ninja right?
22:30:26 <Andreas> [23:29] LordAro is ~LordAro@213.138.101.13 CP
22:30:27 <Andreas> [23:29] LordAro on #freerct #tycoon #openttd.dev #openttd
22:30:27 <Andreas> [23:29] LordAro using weber.oftc.net Newark, NJ, USA
22:30:27 <Andreas> [23:29] LordAro is connecting from host
22:31:00 <LordAro> Andreas: that's a whois, not what i want ;)
22:33:44 <slee> woah, there's an openrct?
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22:34:46 <ST2> LordAro: maybe nickserv gone couple hours to the pub, not working for me neither... but anyway, for me was only to be identified :)
22:36:07 <ST2> but saying to me: ST2 user has identified to services :|
22:36:48 <ST2> meh... but logout dnt work :S
22:37:01 <LordAro> freenode's nickserv/chanserv appear to be fine
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22:53:23 <Xaroth|Work> LordAro: there was a netsplit earlier
22:53:33 <Xaroth|Work> so might be that you were on the end without services
22:55:35 <LordAro> i got a response now :3
22:58:33 <Xaroth|Work> refractoring code, over and over and over again :|
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continue to next day ⏵
