IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-02-02
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00:52:44 <Tirili> Which one is the strongest ai in openttd?
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01:19:16 <slee> bah...starting a map is the hardest part of the game, as a noob, i have no foresight on track layouts
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01:23:24 <Xaroth|Work> matter of experience tbh
01:24:06 <Tirili> How can I start a game against an ai?
01:24:55 <slee> adv.settings > competitors > computer players?
01:31:01 <Tirili> I didn't know that I have to run start_ai.
01:31:25 <Tirili> Wondering though which ai is chosen after the 6 competitors that I did setup.
01:31:39 <Tirili> I have about 10 ais in my game now.
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08:55:36 <Elyon> is there a handy way for specifying signed negative bytes/words/dwords in NFO?
09:12:42 <Elyon> okay! Conversion time it is :) thanks, and good morning!
09:12:58 <planetmaker> indeed, good morning :)
09:16:55 <Elyon> I read somewhere that the number of cargoes waiting on a platform is limited to something which I think was 12, but I cannot find that info. Is this true?
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10:26:14 <Elyon> oh no, I have hit a newgrf limitation! There's only a nibble of random data per station tile, but I need a byte! ... better rework my requirements
10:33:24 <planetmaker> more than 16 variations per tile? :D
10:36:28 <Elyon> planetmaker: ideally 192 so far
10:36:42 <Elyon> but I could probably find a use for the remaining 64
10:37:45 <Elyon> I guess I will have to make do with the 4 bits
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11:53:18 <supermop> its a new timezone for me
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12:06:22 <andythenorth> peter1138: no no, Metal is not good enough
12:06:38 <andythenorth> you must be able to distinguish Aluminium and Steel, it's vitally important
12:07:00 <andythenorth> as they travel to same destinations, using same vehicles, for roughly same payment rates
12:07:10 <andythenorth> we must rewrite the game for this now!
12:07:28 <andythenorth> also where is my API call to get the cargo name?
12:47:17 <Pikka> andythenorth, what FIRS cargos "need" custom load sprites? Scrap is still a thing, right?
12:48:04 <planetmaker> Pikka, farm supplies. engineering supplies make nice cargo
12:48:15 <planetmaker> maybe sugar cane / beets
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13:41:24 <qwebirc26329> Hello i need help
13:42:00 <Elyon> you're going to have to be a bit more specific :)
13:42:01 <qwebirc26329> How to run maps bigger than 2048?
13:42:08 <Elyon> qwebirc26329: there's a patch for that
13:42:20 <qwebirc26329> so no build existing at the moment?
13:42:28 <Elyon> although currently it isn't updated, so you'd have to fix the source code and compile it yourself
13:42:41 <Elyon> there is a patchpack that among other things has bigger-maps
13:43:18 <qwebirc26329> i mean a standalone version like the nightbuild already patched doesn't exist?
13:43:53 <planetmaker> qwebirc26329, did you ever manage to actually fill a 2048^2 map?
13:44:09 <planetmaker> service all towns and industries with >50% station rating and
13:44:20 <planetmaker> 50% cargo transported
13:44:39 <qwebirc26329> :| well i didn't aim for those target
13:44:56 <qwebirc26329> i just wanted to have very extended towns
13:45:21 <planetmaker> so, how big was your biggest town?
13:46:19 <planetmaker> no, add two 00 and we can speak of a record
13:47:01 <qwebirc26329> :D i was sure about something like that
13:47:03 <planetmaker> it's not impossible to get towns with 1 million+ inhabitants
13:47:30 <planetmaker> on a 1024^2 (?) map I've seen 6.5 million inhabitants, but in 4(?) towns
13:47:45 <qwebirc26329> well i just wanted to have big maps 'cause my noob friends playing with me just like wide spaces
13:48:14 <qwebirc26329> we kill the host and restart very often
13:48:24 <Alberth> it doesn't add anything except laying endless long straight tracks
13:49:16 <qwebirc26329> i wanted to increase town number and yes just make endless tracks :D
13:49:45 <qwebirc26329> so non way any of you just have a 1.3.3 version with the exe file just patched?
13:49:54 <planetmaker> it wouldn't be 1.3.3
13:49:57 <Alberth> junctions and stations are interesting to make, imho, not just straight tracks :)
13:50:01 <planetmaker> if you patch, patch trunk
13:50:20 <planetmaker> and mind, that you then probably never will be able to upgrade your openttd to play with a newer version when playing that map
13:50:43 <Alberth> a release number implies a set of properties, like max map size. If you change that, it is not a release anymore
13:51:13 <Alberth> so don't call a patched build the same as a release
13:51:18 <qwebirc26329> but we can probably play with that for long time
13:51:34 <planetmaker> and don't even start patching releases. There's absolutely no point in doing so
13:51:37 <frosch123> qwebirc26329: check /r/openttd, they seem to have similar interests
13:51:45 <Alberth> it also implies there is no point in basing it on a release, you can just as well start with a random trunk version
13:52:24 <qwebirc26329> yeah of course i know that
13:52:41 <qwebirc26329> but i guess this limit is just a number somewhere in the code
13:52:46 <qwebirc26329> to be changed right?
13:52:51 <Alberth> so what's this "have a 1.3.3 version" stuff then about?
13:53:21 <planetmaker> it's also a limit somewhere in memory ;)
13:53:46 <planetmaker> and especially it's a limit in CPU speed
13:53:51 <qwebirc26329> i got a 32gb server i bet is enought
13:54:06 <planetmaker> you should not worry about the server. About the clients
13:54:06 <frosch123> it's just a number for up to 8kx8k
13:54:12 <qwebirc26329> and xeon 8 core 3.0ghz
13:54:38 <planetmaker> *every* client has to run the simulation. Thus your server will run. And no-one play
13:54:42 <frosch123> beyond 8kx8k noone will code it for the effort
13:54:47 <Alberth> actually, the server should be the slowest machine :)
13:55:07 <planetmaker> just broadband internet :)
13:55:09 <frosch123> cpu speed is irrelevant since people will quite after their second train, because its boring :p
13:55:11 <qwebirc26329> we also have strong gaming pcs
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13:56:07 <qwebirc26329> and we play local network
13:56:43 <qwebirc26329> and then if we face performance problem we will accept our limit
13:56:56 <qwebirc26329> but until i try i cannot understand exactly
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13:56:58 *** ChanServ changes topic to "1.4.0-beta3, 1.3.3 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only | #openttd.dev for dev-talk | #openttd.notice for commit notices"
13:58:27 <planetmaker> yes, it's only 256^2
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14:00:07 <planetmaker> and like frosch said, the reddit people might have an appropriate patch pack and binaries at hand, so maybe that's for you to use, too
14:01:37 <Enky> sorry guys, but i'm getting mad on how to generate a 4096x4096 map, someone could help me please?
14:01:55 <Enky> apparently the game is limited to 2048x2048 only
14:02:16 <planetmaker> please read back the last 15 minutes, Enky ^
14:02:50 <qwebirc26329> another poor guy with my same desire
14:03:49 <qwebirc26329> but to try those maps i need to have exactly that build
14:04:04 <planetmaker> of course you don't
14:04:13 <planetmaker> you only need that, *if* you play with patched versions
14:04:25 <Enky> sorry but in the log i don't find the answer to my initial question, on how to do larger map then 2048x2048
14:04:51 <planetmaker> Enky, patch sources to allow it, compile. Enjoy
14:05:03 <Alberth> Enky: find a patch for it, build a customized version, make a bigger map
14:05:07 <Enky> i'm not able to compile too hard to me, i'm very dumb sorry
14:05:31 <Enky> something easy for a newbie?
14:05:43 <Alberth> find a patchpack that has it
14:06:31 <Alberth> a customized version containing lots of patches, for which a binary was made
14:06:43 <Alberth> not compatible with anything but itself
14:06:48 <Enky> i can't believe that noone of you ever compiled a version where it's possible to generate a larger map , it seems incredible to me.
14:07:03 <Enky> come on guys, it's silly
14:07:21 <Alberth> having anything larger than 1024^2 is silly, imho
14:07:26 <Enky> in the next version just add larger map, isn't so complicated
14:07:33 <Xaroth|Work> yet you are unable to compile it yourself, so obviously it's not -that- easy ;)
14:07:55 <Enky> i don't care of your opinion, just do it and the users will decide if to use a 64x64 map or 8192x8192
14:08:01 <Alberth> it's always easy to tell others to do what you want
14:08:11 <Xaroth|Work> and I'm pretty sure that if bigger maps were 'easy', people would have submitted patches for trunk already
14:08:17 <LordAro> Enky: of course course, i'll just change "static const MAP_SIZE = 8192"
14:08:39 <LordAro> that should *obviously* work
14:08:51 <planetmaker> Xaroth, it's easy. But... stupid :)
14:09:23 <Enky> there are maps where 4kx4k is useful, like europe
14:09:27 <planetmaker> the larger the map, the less you can build
14:09:54 <planetmaker> you computer won't be able to handle the cpu requirements
14:10:03 <Alberth> more tiles to update, costs extra cpu power -> less trains
14:10:24 <Xaroth|Work> good, you can play it single-player then
14:10:25 * LordAro spits coffee over keyboard
14:10:45 <planetmaker> oh Lord, don't! We need you and your computer in working condition ;)
14:10:46 <qwebirc26329> did you overclock?
14:11:22 <planetmaker> Pikka, wrong. I usually drink 10 litres of trains for breakfast :P
14:11:28 <planetmaker> uncountable, Alberth
14:11:46 <Alberth> ah, ok, I'll try to remember :)
14:12:06 <Xaroth|Work> Enky: problem is, people will need to test if things work before it gets in trunk; so unless you're willing to donate said 5ghz cpu and 32gb of ram to every core dev... it's highly unlikely to get in trunk
14:12:22 <Xaroth|Work> but if you do, by all means, let me send you my address
14:12:56 <Pikka> also, players who don't have those specs will complain when they try to play 8192x maps and it doesn't work. :)
14:12:57 <Alberth> We can make you dev for a day :)
14:13:06 <Enky> why don't you just change the constant and allow the users to experiment it by themselves?
14:13:07 <Xaroth|Work> Alberth: just one day?
14:13:10 <qwebirc26329> Well about this i don't fully agree
14:13:25 <Enky> put 8192, compile, and goodbye:)
14:13:29 <Xaroth|Work> Enky: it's open source!
14:13:31 <qwebirc26329> The game shoud allow bigger mpas
14:13:46 <Xaroth|Work> it's just not -supported-, because it's not properly testable
14:13:51 <qwebirc26329> and the user will be the one to decide based on his pc strenght
14:14:11 <Enky> yes i agree with you qwebitc26329, it's so easy to udnerstand
14:14:14 <Xaroth|Work> qwebirc26329: and after 2 hours there will be 500000000 bug reports asking why it doesn't work
14:14:14 <LordAro> qwebirc26329: maybe you will, but many others can't
14:14:43 <Alberth> Xaroth|Work: you need another day to fix those bugs? :)
14:15:21 <Xaroth|Work> Alberth: heh, I had expected if somebody was to 'volunteer' using his uber pc for finding bugs in openttd, that most devs would jump for joy to finally create those insane situations
14:15:37 <Xaroth|Work> Enky: you call it 'easy', but I really doubt you grasp the full extent of things :P
14:15:56 <planetmaker> Enky, on that machine it's also very fast to compile openttd. so not a big issue
14:16:06 <Alberth> Xaroth|Work: hmm, I am not jumping that much :p
14:16:07 <planetmaker> but patch packs do ship with that patch, so look for one of those
14:16:07 <qwebirc26329> well just a code that check map size and give warning about map size can cause a throuble
14:16:15 <planetmaker> even one was mentioned to look for specifically
14:16:33 <Alberth> qwebirc26329: oh yeah, that is known not to work
14:16:38 <qwebirc26329> just a var that is changeable only manually in the conf files
14:16:46 <Xaroth|Work> qwebirc26329: since when do people read warnings?
14:16:57 <qwebirc26329> so only people who likes to hack do that and they don't complain
14:16:58 <Xaroth|Work> that's as sane as expecting people to read a manual
14:17:04 <qwebirc26329> so no bug report
14:17:10 <qwebirc26329> and 10000000x10000000 maps
14:17:14 <Pikka> qwebirc26329: yes, that's how it is already
14:17:18 <Alberth> qwebirc26329: people who like to hack can also build a custom version
14:17:30 <Alberth> so problem already handled
14:17:57 <Elyon> 10000000x10000000 maps won't be around in the foreseeable future
14:18:02 <qwebirc26329> ok let's say an easy hack :D
14:18:17 <Elyon> 'build a custom version' should be an easy 'hack' :p
14:18:26 <Xaroth|Work> qwebirc26329: I see around 10-odd people asking questions that can easily be read in the manual, on a monthly basis here
14:18:31 <qwebirc26329> that can be easily changed by an insane user like me and others
14:18:34 <Xaroth|Work> they -will- make bugreports :P
14:18:35 <planetmaker> Elyon, it is an easy hack...
14:18:46 <planetmaker> heck, openttd taught me how to do that :P
14:18:53 <planetmaker> properly at least
14:19:17 <qwebirc26329> well this looks perfect to me
14:19:21 <Elyon> 8192x8192 maps is an easy hack?
14:19:27 <qwebirc26329> just a manual setting in cfg file
14:19:41 <qwebirc26329> so standard user doesn't annoy that
14:20:03 <Xaroth|Work> if you can't compile openttd yourself, you're also part of the 'standard user' group, qwebirc26329
14:20:04 <planetmaker> you can compile or grab patch pack
14:20:08 <planetmaker> both is not hard.
14:20:17 <qwebirc26329> and i'll not bugreport you if my pc blow up
14:20:23 <Elyon> you won't but who will?
14:20:27 <planetmaker> that's what she said
14:20:27 <Xaroth|Work> don't expect other people to do things for you because you are lazy
14:20:45 <qwebirc26329> my solution is for lazy hackers like me
14:21:00 <Elyon> ... isn't this already a non-issue?
14:21:03 <Xaroth|Work> don't expect other people to do things for you because you are lazy
14:21:15 <Elyon> those that need bigger maps can already compile a patched version to get it
14:21:29 <Elyon> those that don't just play nightlies/whatever/releases
14:21:42 <qwebirc26329> 'cause you already know the code and takes 0 seconds
14:21:51 <qwebirc26329> for us we need to spend 1 hour to do that
14:21:52 <Xaroth|Work> qwebirc26329: basically, what you're saying is: "Do this for me because I cba to do it myself"
14:22:00 <Elyon> qwebirc26329: you hardly need to know the code to compile it ;)
14:22:18 <qwebirc26329> and i don't think adding a bool value in a cfg file would be such a complicated issue
14:22:26 <qwebirc26329> like overridemapsize = true
14:22:28 <Elyon> heck, I don't know the first thing about the code and I managed to merge cargodist and infrastructure sharing back in the day
14:22:44 <Elyon> qwebirc26329: you can go ahead and add that bool in the cfg file right now, actually!
14:22:55 <Xaroth|Work> now, if you were to say "Do this for me, because I'm too lazy to do it, but I'll buy every dev a crate of <insert beverage here>" , people might actually be a bit more receptive of the idea :P
14:23:23 <planetmaker> oh, I see someone keen on that :P
14:24:06 <Xaroth|Work> not I, but I'm sure it'll help for the preparations for the next meetup :)
14:24:25 <Elyon> how many devs are there?
14:24:33 <Elyon> also how big are these "crates"?
14:24:57 <Xaroth|Work> Elyon: both are not relevant tbh
14:25:08 <frosch123> i have a different suggestion!
14:25:10 <Xaroth|Work> the concept is providing incentive for people to do something that you want :)
14:25:14 <frosch123> make 1kx1k the new maximum
14:25:30 <frosch123> allow selection 2kx2k, but disable the start button, but instead display some insults!
14:26:20 <frosch123> pakka pekka pikka pokka pukka
14:26:38 <planetmaker> frosch123, nah. Display some texts from Nietsche and ask comprehension questions. Only upon answering correctly allow to start
14:26:40 <Elyon> pakka pikka pukka pekka pokka would be closer :D
14:27:11 <Pikka> < frosch123> make 1kx1k the new maximum <- 128x128
14:28:06 <frosch123> 256x256 is fine for singleplayer, given 15 companies you need 1024x1024
14:28:33 <LordAro> qwebirc26329: alternatively, show us a "maxed out" 2048x2048 map, and people might start considering bigger maps more seriously
14:28:39 <Xaroth|Work> planetmaker: Nietsche? schrodinger! :P
14:29:02 <Xaroth|Work> "There may or may ont be a 1kx1k map size"
14:29:31 <qwebirc26329> Anyway you know what i mean when i say that should not need for me to put all this effort on this since you have the code and compiler in front of you at this moment
14:29:36 <Elyon> I like how questions about 8kx8k maps have brought the 1kx1k size in question
14:30:02 <frosch123> Elyon: the point is that 1kx1k is a meaningful maxsize
14:30:03 <qwebirc26329> But i need to read stuff when you can just change a line and press a button
14:30:14 <Elyon> qwebirc26329: teach a person to fish, etc.
14:30:20 <frosch123> 2kx2k is only there to give those an option who cannot get their mouth full enough
14:30:33 <frosch123> but instead they ask for 128kx128k now knowing how stupid that is
14:30:46 <LordAro> qwebirc26329: do you honestly think it is as simple as changing a single line?
14:31:01 <frosch123> and instead they claim "hey it is so easy to do it" instead of believing that people have tried it and considered unusable and stupid to begin with
14:31:02 <qwebirc26329> yeah problem is that i'm 100% sure the game is fine to me just like this but without that limitation
14:31:37 <Elyon> would someone seriously ask for 128k^2?
14:31:49 <frosch123> Elyon: people always ask for more
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14:31:51 <Elyon> doesn't 8k^2 already use like 1.3 GB?
14:31:56 <frosch123> if 2kx2k is the max, they ask for bigger
14:32:03 <frosch123> if 32 cargos is the max, they ask for more
14:32:06 <MikeFord> is it possible to talk with the main developer of the game?
14:32:11 * Alberth likes the reduction idea
14:32:12 <Elyon> frosch123: well, fair point
14:32:24 <LordAro> MikeFord: most of them are here, go ahead
14:32:26 <Alberth> MikeFord: there are many of those
14:32:36 <MikeFord> i would like to know if it possible to go far beyond the limitsize of 2048x2048 tiles
14:32:42 <frosch123> people who have *actually played* with these limits in a reasonable way, figure out that you should stay below those limits for an interesting game
14:32:43 <LordAro> ok, this is silly now
14:33:08 <LordAro> MikeFord: It's very interesting how you have the same IP as Enky
14:33:12 <MikeFord> i just installed the game and i'd like to create a big map just for fun
14:33:28 *** DorpsGek sets mode: +b *!~oftc-webi@159.20.215.242
14:33:29 *** MikeFord was kicked by DorpsGek (frosch123)
14:33:48 <LordAro> banning is perhaps a bit harsh?
14:34:58 <Xaroth|Work> there's no such thing as being too harsh :)
14:35:17 <planetmaker> LordAro, no, same IP
14:35:41 <frosch123> i have no idea whether its the real ip, maybe it is the oftc ip
14:35:55 <frosch123> but it does not matter, it's the same source of trolls
14:35:56 <Wolf01> what about a 2048x2048 chocolate bar?
14:36:10 <planetmaker> well, we shouldn't ban oftc's official webchat
14:36:20 <frosch123> won't hurt for some hours :)
14:36:33 <planetmaker> :) for a few hours not
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14:36:52 <Taede> you only banned the combo of his ip using the webchat
14:36:59 <Taede> he can still join with a proper client
14:37:10 <Xaroth|Work> doesn't matter, we know his IP now ;)
14:37:33 <LordAro> Xaroth|Work: you got a Botnet handy? :p
14:38:18 <Xaroth|Work> LordAro: I may or may not have any number of botnets to my disposal, how so?
14:38:46 <frosch123> lordaro wants to attack 127.0.0.1
14:39:02 <qwebirc26329> if i have to really honest with you i wanted to have no limits because i wanna make 4096x64 map
14:39:36 <frosch123> well, try the reddit build or check the forums
14:39:43 <frosch123> i am sure you will find someone with simialr interests
14:39:46 <LordAro> qwebirc26329: the relevant patch is linked above. none of us knew how to compile before we actually did
14:40:23 <fonsinchen> Well, to be fair, it is actually only that one number in map_type.h:62, right? Put 13 instead of 11 and you get 8192 as max dimension.
14:40:47 <frosch123> technically i believe 4096 is actually the maximum
14:40:58 <frosch123> i believe bulding an airport at the border of 8k will get you into trouble
14:41:13 <LordAro> fonsinchen: judging by Bilbo's patch, i think certain integers overflow
14:41:43 <frosch123> LordAro: yes, the world coordinates are int32
14:41:55 <frosch123> and you have 16 subcoordinates on a tile
14:42:24 <frosch123> so a aircraft which tries to land at 8k from south will reappear on the other side of the map, far in the north
14:42:36 <frosch123> or it just crashes :p
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14:45:00 <fonsinchen> And I like the idea of having 4096 as config file only option. 4096x64 might actually be an interesting game.
14:45:36 <frosch123> more interesting than 2kx64 ?
14:46:05 <fonsinchen> For those people who like long stretches of straight rail, yes.
14:48:59 <Alberth> a train taking a decade to get to the other end of the map? :)
14:49:26 <Wolf01> that's another point to have daylength
14:49:27 <planetmaker> time is relative ;)
14:49:47 <frosch123> well, imo put the more rare game variants into patches and patchpacks
14:50:05 * LordAro ponders 2d pattern matching algorithms...
14:50:09 <planetmaker> well, limiting the amount of tiles rather than length makes sense
14:50:19 <planetmaker> LordAro, convol is your friend
14:50:34 <planetmaker> but depends on how fast you need it :)
14:50:44 <frosch123> well, the maximum on length is apparently 4k. fine by me to raise it from 2k to 4k
14:50:49 <frosch123> but i doubt it will help anyone
14:50:59 <planetmaker> well. convolve the image with the pattern you search and look for the maximum in the result of the convolution
14:51:06 <frosch123> 2kx64 to 4kx64 is no improvement at all
14:51:08 <planetmaker> requiring a certain maximum, of course
14:51:14 <frosch123> the same people will keep on asking for 128kx64
14:51:38 <LordAro> planetmaker: oh, it's not image recognition, just shape recognition, from points
14:51:51 <planetmaker> LordAro, that's the same thing, technically
14:52:08 <Wolf01> I want L and T shaped maps
14:52:34 <LordAro> planetmaker: also, has to be in python :L
14:52:52 <planetmaker> I'm sure python has pre-made algorithms for convolution
14:53:24 <planetmaker> search for the fastest fourier transform of the west ;) It's implemented in C afaik, but maybe a python version exists
14:53:32 <DorpsGek> Commit by fonsinchen :: r26289 /trunk/src (tilearea.cpp tilearea_type.h) (2014-02-02 14:53:26 UTC)
14:53:33 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Make tile areas and iterators more consistent to each other.
14:53:44 <LordAro> planetmaker: i'll take a look
14:53:57 <DorpsGek> Commit by fonsinchen :: r26290 /trunk/src (landscape.cpp terraform_cmd.cpp) (2014-02-02 14:53:52 UTC)
14:53:58 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Use nicer orthogonal tile iterator constructor and simplify calculation of explosion points when clearing.
14:54:18 <DorpsGek> Commit by fonsinchen :: r26291 trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp (2014-02-02 14:54:13 UTC)
14:54:19 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5866, FS#5888]: Correctly identify opposite ends of bridges and tunnels when converting rails (adf88)
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14:57:56 <LordAro> planetmaker: and, not that i fully understand what convolution is, but i don't think it's quite what i'm looking for here
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15:01:54 <LordAro> petert really did get rather annoyed with me, didn't he? :)
15:03:24 <frosch123> haha, still one of my favorite forums posts
15:03:52 <LordAro> and more concerned about the Company name of my AI, rather than the functionality :D
15:05:43 <LordAro> now i can't stop laughing :D
15:06:22 <LordAro> oh, and i won in the junction thing, too :D
15:19:27 <fonsinchen> simple and effective in increasing max map size to 4096, but only for people who know at least a bit what they're doing.
15:30:21 <Xaroth|Work> LordAro: petert gets annoyed with anybody, so that's not really a feat of effort :P
15:30:47 <Japa_> fonsinchen, 64x4096 map.
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16:00:15 <andythenorth> if I had oodles of spare time I could put the cargo icons in
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16:12:07 <andythenorth> there's no way to bin those processes once started, afaict
16:12:56 <andythenorth> there's probably a timeout handler in multiprocessing somewhere, but I didn't find a robust way to use it yet
16:13:29 <foobar1337> Hi, I have the feeling that development has slowed down after 1.0. Mostly bugfixes and cosmetics (GUI improvments) since then. Will any big features be introduced in the near future (new industries, new trains, more content generally)? Or is this fully and exclusivley up to NewGRF's?
16:14:06 <planetmaker> hi, new trains, industries,... are up to NewGRFs
16:14:46 <planetmaker> there are a lot of NewGRFs, conveniently available from ingame content download
16:14:46 <Alberth> andythenorth: pickle is python version dependent, perhaps you're mixing python versions?
16:14:59 <andythenorth> Alberth: interesting possibility
16:15:02 <Pikka> there were never any new trains or industries added to OpenTTD before 1.0, either...
16:15:16 <andythenorth> GUI improvements aren't cosmetic :)
16:15:26 <Alberth> pickle is pretty much useless as portable format :)
16:15:27 <foobar1337> What is the general roadmap for the OpenTTD core then? Will it only be "kept stable" in the future? What can we expect from it?
16:15:48 <andythenorth> nobody has publicly said 'no new features'
16:15:51 <planetmaker> you can expect the same as before: features will get added as they become available :)
16:16:03 <andythenorth> I would rather not :P
16:16:08 * andythenorth has become all conservative
16:16:22 <Pikka> andythenorth, where's my roadtypes?
16:16:35 <andythenorth> don't open that can
16:16:43 <Pikka> and newairports, that's an even worse one
16:17:00 <andythenorth> new stations would be valid
16:17:19 <andythenorth> because we're doing it properly, I've been delivering passengers to fishing grounds since 2009
16:17:25 <andythenorth> that's....5 years
16:17:30 <andythenorth> 'he sleeps with the fishes'
16:17:42 <foobar1337> for example, a story/campaign mode would be nice. Would something like that be also NewGRF-exclusive?
16:18:01 <andythenorth> after 5 years of waiting for the proper solution, you might wonder if the wrong solution is good enough
16:18:13 <Alberth> foobar1337: that already exists
16:18:59 <planetmaker> definitely, Alberth
16:19:20 <andythenorth> Alberth: I think multiprocessing uses pickle to pass objects between processes, but not sure :)
16:19:47 <Alberth> sounds like a likely option
16:19:49 <foobar1337> Alberth: So, there are campaigns? In a way like Rollercoaster Tycoon has? Where you have different scenarios that are "opened" one-by-one by mastering a specific goal in the previous map?
16:19:52 <planetmaker> Alberth, though the string is not clear to me. What's "advanced settings" there?
16:20:23 <andythenorth> foobar1337: not campaigns like that no :)
16:20:54 <Alberth> but that's a matter of writing a nice game script
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16:21:19 <planetmaker> foobar1337, but you might, for instance, try a map with the silicon valley game script
16:21:27 <Alberth> planetmaker: hmm, it's supposed to explain to use a different restriction mode in the top drop down
16:21:35 <planetmaker> or one of the citybuilder ones
16:21:50 <planetmaker> Alberth, yes. But "advanced settings" has no equivalent further up on that window
16:21:51 <Alberth> doesn't nocargoal have a story page?
16:22:18 <Alberth> planetmaker: indeed :(
16:22:31 <Alberth> no sane way to refer to the dropdown
16:23:19 <planetmaker> Alberth, add a string above the dropdowns reading "Filter selections:"
16:23:26 <planetmaker> and then refer to 'filter selections"?
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16:23:42 <Alberth> I was pondering to make 2 labels at the left
16:23:53 <Alberth> which is quite like your idea
16:24:13 <planetmaker> yeah. Or just replacing the "Show" by "Filter\nselection:"
16:24:41 <planetmaker> probably better to place that left of them
16:25:49 <Alberth> there is already a "Filter" in the editbox label
16:25:58 <Alberth> needs a little thinking
16:30:11 <Pikka> nocargoal uses storybook, I think... I tried it just the other day
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16:44:42 <frosch123> Alberth: "switch filter to 'Advanced Settings' to show ..."
16:44:54 <frosch123> i.e. mention the 'filter', else people will associate it to the window title
16:45:32 <Alberth> I want to refer to the top drop down
16:46:01 <frosch123> yes, but "advancted settings" is ambiguous
16:47:31 <Alberth> I agree it needs more careful wording
16:48:49 <frosch123> i guess replacing the "Show" with "Filter" is not that bad
16:49:27 <frosch123> or "Category", then you can refer to the categories in the other message
16:50:32 <planetmaker> filter category is nice
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17:11:00 <Alberth> hmm, category also needs a warning message
17:13:20 * andythenorth wonders if 32bpp is the answer for ships
17:13:33 <andythenorth> Pikka: want to render ~30 ships o_O
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17:14:04 <Pikka> I probably want to render about 6 ships, andythenorth :)
17:14:58 <Pikka> but when I get to ships, sharing resources, definitely. :P
17:15:24 <planetmaker> you two guys should make one set :)
17:15:48 <planetmaker> maybe a base set ;)
17:16:23 <Alberth> planetmaker: we need more climates :p
17:16:46 <andythenorth> I would be happy with one good climate
17:16:48 <frosch123> i thought category would apply to the upper one :o
17:17:38 <Alberth> it applies to both, but then it defeats its purpose :p
17:18:17 <Pikka> also, desert and snow on one map
17:18:33 <Pikka> and different shades of grass and water
17:18:41 <Xaroth|Work> 50 shades of grass and water?
17:19:08 <frosch123> Alberth: i would put "Category" to the upper one, and "Type" to the lower one
17:19:19 <frosch123> "Type" is also how it is called in the description panel at the bottom
17:20:01 <Alberth> the problem is currently that the type can also block search results, and you don't get a message about that
17:20:15 <frosch123> oh... why did you write "Advanced settings" btw? shouldn't it say "Expert settings / all settings"?
17:20:54 <Alberth> I don't write that, it gets copied from the drop-down depending on the search result
17:21:12 <frosch123> so it should say "select 'all settings' in both the category and type filter to see all search results" ?
17:21:55 <frosch123> oh, it did not guess it would be dynamic
17:22:04 <Xaroth|Work> and when adding stuff, maybe some form of auth system :P
17:22:23 <planetmaker> that's tb's domain, Xaroth ;)
17:22:31 <Alberth> maybe it shouldn't be dynamic :)
17:22:54 <planetmaker> the dynamic aspect wasn't clear to me, neither :)
17:23:06 <Xaroth|Work> planetmaker: wasn't talking about a CAS, more.. simple :)
17:23:24 <planetmaker> like company passwords? :P
17:23:56 <Alberth> k, time for some food first
17:24:14 <planetmaker> bon appetit, Alberth
17:24:18 <Xaroth|Work> planetmaker: bit more complex than that :P
17:24:33 <planetmaker> bah, you can't really decide, eh, Xaroth ? :P
17:24:41 <Xaroth|Work> no, you just give me two extremes
17:24:45 <Xaroth|Work> and I'm aiming at the middle road
17:25:32 <planetmaker> middle road, average class, 1 shade of grey ;)
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17:48:38 <Pikka> such shipping, so contained. wow.
17:50:07 <andythenorth> we should just make one cargo
17:50:22 <andythenorth> 1 ship, 1 truck, 1 train
17:50:54 <andythenorth> but you could have an API call to get the cargo 'name'
17:51:00 <andythenorth> which would be a random string :P
17:51:14 <andythenorth> we'd patch cargodist to assign 'names' when assigning routes
17:51:41 <andythenorth> industries would have a list of produced and accepted 'names', but only a single production ratio
17:51:47 <andythenorth> primary production would be random
17:52:30 <andythenorth> transfers and routing are much simplified
17:52:38 <andythenorth> oh I guess there would have to be pax :(
17:52:57 <Pikka> are you also procedurally generating the industry graphics?
17:53:17 <andythenorth> not yet but ummm
17:53:25 <andythenorth> zephyris did that for houses
17:54:27 <andythenorth> evil would be randomising generated graphics at compile time
17:55:04 <Pikka> we should procedurally generate everything, so every time the player starts a new game they'll have no idea what's what.
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17:58:18 <andythenorth> I find that quite appealing
17:58:33 <andythenorth> it's mostly possible :P
17:58:50 <Pikka> planetmaker: you asked earlier why andy and I don't just make one grf... :P
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18:00:40 <Pikka> is it a non-electrified depot?
18:01:19 <Mrkva> okay, now I'm officially idiot
18:02:17 <Mrkva> I've thought I ran into some strange PBS issue
18:02:19 <frosch123> without idiots this channel would be empty
18:02:33 <frosch123> except for dorpsgek maybe
18:02:36 <planetmaker> electric vs. non-electric is a very common oversight, Mrkva :)
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18:31:54 <andythenorth> Pikka: I think we'd fall out :P
18:45:41 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26292 /trunk/src/lang (3 files in 2 dirs) (2014-02-02 18:45:33 UTC)
18:45:42 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:43 <DorpsGek> czech - 6 changes by Eskymak
18:45:44 <DorpsGek> estonian - 1 changes by planetmaker
18:45:45 <DorpsGek> frisian - 152 changes by Geoloep
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21:34:39 <slee> hello, when you 'fund new industry'...lets say you fund a new power plant, does it also give you new coal mines?
21:35:07 <Taede> you need to fund those separately
21:37:08 <slee> where do you fund for those? i only see places you take products to(powerplant, steel mill, etc)
21:38:36 <Taede> you may need to check settings
21:38:37 <glx> somewhere in advanced settings
21:38:45 <Taede> funding for primary industries can be turned off
21:39:07 <Taede> economy -> industries -> manual primary industries...
21:48:46 <slee> holy cow, $9M to fund a forest
21:52:18 <slee> well, i saved my game then opened a new map to test it
21:53:51 <slee> oh, something else...i've read the futher you ship your goods, the more you make, but i also read if you send it too far, you lose money...is there a chart that lets you know how far is too far?
21:58:47 <slee> i try to google/wiki.openttd for answers, but being a noob i'm not fimiliar with the correct terminology making it hard for me to find my answers
21:59:47 <juzza1> understandable, it's ok to ask (almost) anything here :)
22:04:38 <slee> yes, already found it from first link
22:18:34 <Kjetil> ah. good old kilolitres
23:02:21 <slee> hmmm..'slope steepness for trains'...changing it from 0% to 10% seems to have no difference, train appears to still climb hill at same speed..is there another setting that could be interfering?
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23:25:38 <slee> omg, that is the 3rd time i've forgot to stop trains before altering a signal....BOOM
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23:36:19 <Eddi|zuHause> use the undo knob
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