IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-12-31
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07:50:26 <George> small howto NML question. what is the right way to prevent wrong sprite error when xussr set is loaded with other railway set, providing more than 16 rail types in total?
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08:02:10 <ggsklg> Why share order can only apply to 2-3 vehicles. is it a bug?
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08:03:57 <Terkhen> why do you say that it can only apply to 2-3 vehicles? do you encounter any error when trying to share them between more vehicles?
08:04:54 <ggsklg> i tried to make 5-6 vehicles share the same order, but after 1-2 vehicles that i shared the order it just start to replace them
08:05:29 <ggsklg> so for exp: 1 plane is go to A go to B, share to plane 2, 3, then on plane 4 plane 2 dosnt share order anymore but plane 4 does
08:06:16 <ggsklg> I'm using the night ver, with FIRS and Japanese mods, but that happend to me on 1.3.3 too
08:08:24 <Terkhen> I just tried to share orders using diferent methods (cloning the vehicle you want to share orders with while pressing control and creating a vehicle with empty orders and using shift click on an existing vehicle to share orders with it)
08:08:54 <Terkhen> both of them work fine and orders are shared between all vehicles; I think that you are doing something wrong
08:09:04 <Terkhen> can you tell me how are you sharing orders?
08:09:11 <ggsklg> oh, didnt know you can do it with shift.
08:09:23 <ggsklg> I'm just using the button 'share orders" in the order menu
08:11:44 <Terkhen> it works correctly for me too on a recent nightly, so I don't know why it is going wrong for you...
08:12:29 <Terkhen> the only thing I can think of is that you are trying to share orders that the plane cannot follow because the destination airports are too far away, but since it's been a while since I played I don't know how those distance limitations work
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08:13:16 <ggsklg> Maybe i'm doin something wrong
08:14:09 <ggsklg> any shorcut to share order between exisitin vehicles?
08:14:30 <Terkhen> open orders window and shift+click on the vehicle you want to share orders with
08:20:21 <Rubidium> try ctrl instead of shift
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08:21:01 <ggsklg> tried it. it stop/start the train
08:21:42 <Rubidium> open order window, click on the goto button, then ctrl-click the other vehicle
08:22:15 <Rubidium> however... the vehicle that has the order window open will be the one taking the orders of the vehicle you share with
08:23:01 <ggsklg> ya, works. but not that usefull, just one click away from click on share order and than the vehicle
08:23:28 <Rubidium> which means that if the vehicle with the order window is open, it will first unshare its orders and then share it with the newly clicked vehicle (which is the only way you might be able to reproduce what you see)
08:25:38 <ggsklg> so what i need to do - click plane 1, share order with 2, click on plane 2 share order with 3 and so on...
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08:26:11 <Rubidium> ggsklg: no, click plane 2, share with 1, click plane 3, share with 2 (or 1)
08:28:30 <Rubidium> George: should work now, I think
08:28:57 <George> Rubidium: Thank you, I'll try
08:57:54 <Terkhen> I'm usually always around, I just don't talk much :)
09:03:54 <planetmaker> afaik that should do the trick
09:08:58 <planetmaker> that's a railtype table, yes. But it defines no faillback types should your own types not be available
09:09:40 <planetmaker> but that's actually ok. Might only result in vehicles not being available
09:10:28 <George> what do you suggest to change this to?
09:11:51 <planetmaker> To get rid of your sprite error the code on the website I linked above should be needed
09:14:00 <planetmaker> but I can't exactly make a suggestion as I know neither the vehicles nor the used railtypes in xussrset sufficiently in order to give good fallback types
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09:34:08 <George> RLA1, RLA2, RLA3 are RAIL
09:34:35 <George> ERA1, ERA2, ERA3, ERD1, ERD2, ERD3, ER2S are ELRL
09:35:00 <George> in case there is AC/DC diff then
09:35:10 <George> ERA1, ERA2, ERA3 are AC
09:35:18 <George> ERD1, ERD2, ERD3 are DC
09:37:14 <planetmaker> using that scheme might help compatibility in general a lot, I'd think
09:38:25 <andythenorth> anybody want to make a railtype set to match IH? o_O
09:38:29 <planetmaker> well, of course it won't magically solve any issues. But would make it possibly easier to see which other types would match :)
09:38:38 <andythenorth> no sprite drawing needed, that can be done later
09:40:58 <planetmaker> hm... I would need to take a look at what it offers
09:41:17 <andythenorth> dunno if I can wait that long
09:41:30 <planetmaker> it's tough, I know
09:43:11 <planetmaker> George, does any of your vehicles actually use RAIL or ELRL?
09:43:39 <planetmaker> and how do RLA1, RLA2, RLA3 differ?
09:45:42 <George> None uses default type
09:46:08 <planetmaker> then I don't understand why RAIL and ELRL are in your railtype table :)
09:48:49 <George> they should be removed?
09:49:09 <planetmaker> RLA1: [SAEN, RAIL]
09:49:21 <planetmaker> yes, the RTT should only define the types used by your vehicles
09:49:38 <planetmaker> RLA1: [SAEN, RAIL]
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09:49:47 <planetmaker> and rename your *railtype* RLA1 to SAEN
09:49:55 <planetmaker> but keep vehicles using RLA1
09:50:15 <planetmaker> RLA2: [SBEN, RAIL]
09:50:23 <planetmaker> RLA3: [SCEN, RAIL]
09:51:16 <planetmaker> how do the ERAx and ERDx differ?
09:52:40 <planetmaker> standard gauge. whatever that is :)
09:52:51 <George> We use 1520, so that should be B?
09:52:54 <planetmaker> Russia uses broad?
09:53:31 <planetmaker> though, are your tracks actually wider and do your vehicles show that in pixels?
09:53:46 <George> I do not know how much is "broad" in mm
09:54:52 <George> In our scale it is wider, than 1435. But other sets use different scale
09:58:53 <George> Axle load class [**X*] I suppose *3 should be not E
09:59:55 <planetmaker> E means heavy load
10:00:42 <planetmaker> i.e. disregarding that
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10:03:50 <George> (a line, where AC | DC is seceted according to a train, that uses it)
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10:04:06 <planetmaker> not sure about the latter
10:04:51 <planetmaker> why reduce the axle load for the fastest track type
10:05:39 <George> Heavy trains may destroy a very expencive line?
10:05:57 <planetmaker> they may also destroy a cheap line
10:06:13 <George> but it would cost less to repair
10:06:24 <planetmaker> or are the foundations for your high speed tracks less robust etc?
10:06:54 <planetmaker> i.e. the fast tracks build to other standards?
10:07:00 <George> No, I suppose they are strong enough
10:07:21 <planetmaker> then... it should be able to carry the same weight and have the same axle load class, I'd recon
10:07:25 <Alberth> moin andy, planet maker
10:08:21 <andythenorth> we should also consider super-elevation, depth of ballast, and whether rail is welded or jointed :)
10:08:31 <Alberth> oh, I forgot ge0rge, morning to you as well
10:08:32 <peter1138> Damn it, on Windows I can use my analogue and s/pdif outputs independently. With PulseAudio, I can only use one or the other :-(
10:08:34 <andythenorth> and the amount of time since last maintenance
10:08:48 <George> Technically yes, but I never heard lines for express trains are used for heavy cargo trains
10:08:52 <planetmaker> totally, andythenorth ;)
10:08:57 <George> I have to think about it
10:09:03 <planetmaker> George, it's about technically possible
10:09:15 <planetmaker> not about what is done
10:09:23 <andythenorth> George: don't think too hard, the railtype scheme is overkill :D
10:09:23 <planetmaker> what is done should be left to the player
10:10:13 <George> Sorry, I have to go, come back later
10:10:19 <andythenorth> so new year....new company colour GUI?
10:10:27 <George> Happy new year to all!
10:10:35 <planetmaker> same to you, George :)
10:11:37 <planetmaker> andythenorth, yes, it's somewhat overkill. But then, you know, number of standards ;)
10:11:53 <planetmaker> so I try to not make it worse with each new rail set :P
10:12:20 <planetmaker> it's disgusting as it is with the existing plethora of railtypes where most basically mean the same thing
10:12:49 <planetmaker> Personally I totally prefer games with less railtypes
10:13:20 <andythenorth> I'm trying to limit IH to 5 or so per game
10:14:12 <planetmaker> that's already man :)
10:14:47 <andythenorth> rail, elrail, maglev forces a minimum of 3
10:14:47 <planetmaker> to me different track types don't add to gameplay other than visual
10:14:58 <planetmaker> yes, and those 3 suffice for me :)
10:15:42 <planetmaker> if I have to choose between two somewhat equivalent ones, I choose the one which supports most vehicle types
10:16:20 <andythenorth> the IH ones are mostly exclusive sets
10:16:29 <andythenorth> except for electrified [type]
10:16:43 <andythenorth> narrow guage, metro, rail, maglev are incompatible
10:17:32 <planetmaker> it totally should introduce dual-tracked or tripple-tracked tracks which combine narrow, standard and metro tracks :D
10:17:49 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I considered that :P
10:18:25 <andythenorth> I rejected it :)
10:18:40 <andythenorth> unless we do a roster for a country where that happens a lot, like India
10:20:44 <andythenorth> so who has the company colour gui open right now? o_O
10:22:51 <Alberth> people playing the 2cc set?
10:23:42 <Alberth> you'd hope it has better features than its name suggests :)
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11:21:52 <Flygon> planetmaker: Triple gauge was a disaster here
11:22:10 <Flygon> 1435mm, 1600mm, and 1067mm (South Australia)
11:22:25 <Flygon> 1435+1600mm imposes 80km/h max on the BG line...
11:22:39 <Flygon> Now if all our HST's weren't BG...
11:28:34 <Alberth> ie it's a bug in the nml compiler
11:28:53 <MNIM> heh. AC/DC on the radio.
11:29:44 <Alberth> nah, radiohead in the cd player :)
11:29:54 <Virtual> I'm listening to AC/DC now
11:31:08 <George> Alberth: And how to fix it?
11:32:02 <Alberth> mostly by fixing the nml compiler
11:37:55 <Alberth> can you make a small example?
11:38:09 <Alberth> ie I need to reproduce the error here
11:38:22 <Alberth> preferably with as little code as possible
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11:43:12 <Alberth> I don't have your version here, and if r1278 is the real nml revision, it is very old
11:43:40 <George> I'm looking for latest version now
11:43:56 <Alberth> ie (number cbddf81837f4 doesn't exist in the repository of nml
11:45:10 <Alberth> the line does look to be able to generate that error
11:51:17 <planetmaker> maybe somewhere the label is used w/o quotes where it needs to be used with quotes.
11:51:35 <planetmaker> there's no railtype label anywhere which does start with a number, is there?
11:53:17 <planetmaker> but yeah, first try with current NML. About 50% more commits have been made since the version you use(d), George
12:00:27 <George> I hve not change anything since xUSSR set 0.2 execpt railtypetable
12:04:48 <Alberth> what should be changed relative to xussrset r1278 ?
12:09:10 <George> changing it back restores compilation
12:13:22 <planetmaker> George, with just that change and current xussr in the repo, I get something different: nmlc ERROR: "src/dummy/dummy.pnml", line 31: Unrecognized identifier 'RAIL' encountered
12:20:06 <planetmaker> that might be expected as you don't define a RAIL anymore in the railtype table - but if the 'dummy' uses it, it will fail
12:20:33 <George> I compile under win, may it be the reason?
12:22:24 <Xaroth|Work> more likely that you use an outdated nmlc version
12:22:44 <Alberth> 5100 is the latest nightly
12:23:04 <Alberth> I just tried that one, and it gives also the error of unrecognized identifier
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12:25:53 <Alberth> could you insert before line 40 print type(value), repr(value) ?
12:27:08 <Xaroth|Work> nml/expression/__init__.py
12:28:08 <George> I do not have such file in the NML folder
12:28:59 <Alberth> in windows, its nml\expression\__init__.py
12:29:03 <planetmaker> Alberth, Xaroth : the windows version is an exe file created by throwing cxfreeze onto the python
12:29:15 <planetmaker> so it might not have all that stuff there. Not sure
12:29:29 <Alberth> yeah, looks like it, only an .exe
12:34:54 <George> may be you could compile a special exe for me so I could test?
12:45:52 <Alberth> after adding a language file, it compiles here
12:46:40 <George> With error specified above
12:47:20 <Alberth> I believe you, but if I cannot reproduce it, it's very difficult to understand why it doesn't produce that error
12:47:39 <Alberth> ie the "unrecognized identifier" error
12:48:22 <Alberth> you could try switching to the python source code version, but that needs installing python etc etc, which is also not that simple
12:48:57 <Alberth> and of course that will not help if the error is not in the conversion of python to the .exe file
12:49:47 <Alberth> yeah I know, but the problem is much earlier
12:50:06 <Alberth> namely at the point where it decides not to give an "unrecognized identifier" error
12:50:37 <George> I think the first step would be to provide an exe file for me that would generate more log information
12:53:39 <Xaroth|Work> I doubt it's anything to do with an exe version requiring more log information, and more to do with the exe file you have being hugely out-of-date
12:54:01 <Alberth> Xaroth|Work: 5100 is the latest nightly
12:54:23 <Xaroth|Work> Alberth: and his .exe version is 5100?
12:54:43 <Alberth> that message comes from the exe, doesn't it?
12:55:16 <Xaroth|Work> that depends on what kind of weird magic cx_freeze uses
12:55:24 <Xaroth|Work> it wouldn't be the first time that it cocked up on something
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12:57:27 <Alberth> to decide that, you need to run the same input on the pure python nml version, and see what it does
12:57:41 <Eddi|zuHause> <George> (a line, where AC | DC is seceted according to a train, that uses it) <-- AC should be ***A, DC ***D and both ***E, and one or both of ***A and ***D should have ***E and ELRL as fallback, should a trackset which doesn't model multiple power types be loaded
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13:05:13 <George> So what changes do i need to make in railtypetable.pnml?
13:06:04 <planetmaker> George, you indeed verified that your bat(ch) file uses nml v5100, yes?
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13:17:28 <Eddi|zuHause> ERA1: [BAEA, SAEA, ELRL], <-- you should put BAEE and SAEE as fallbacks in here as well
13:17:51 <Alberth> planetmaker: no, below the 'def'
13:17:58 <Eddi|zuHause> ER2S: [BBEE, SBEE, ELRL] <-- and this should be *A** since you don't have any speed distinction here
13:18:03 <Alberth> ie print the value of the argument
13:18:23 <Alberth> which is not a string or buffer, but what is it?
13:18:41 <Alberth> perhaps also find the place where the identifier error is decided
13:20:13 <ZxBiohazardZx> Thought of the day: Rhinos are just fat Unicorns.....
13:20:40 <planetmaker> However, I've to leave for the rest of the year, so I wish you all a nice NewYear's eve
13:20:44 <planetmaker> and a happy new year
13:20:58 <Eddi|zuHause> George: the distinction for *A**/*B**/*C** should probably not be in the translation table at all, since you should define trains for *A** only, the *B** and *C** should be in the trackset only, without the vehicle set being aware of them
13:21:14 <planetmaker> Alberth, if you want to continue today, you could test stuff directly on the build server (probably easiest way to get the exes)
13:21:32 <planetmaker> would you like that kind of access?
13:21:57 <Alberth> not really, I am busy with other things
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13:22:31 <Alberth> and building dozen of exes with just 1 line extra or so is not the most useful way to find what's wrong
13:23:21 <planetmaker> nah, likely right. But would allow to compile versions without commit or so :) Very hacky :D
13:23:58 <planetmaker> operating on jenkin's checkout w/o using jenkins ;)
13:24:54 <Alberth> hmm, using nml r1278 gives an error on the language file
13:26:31 <planetmaker> have a good time and see you next year :)
13:26:55 <Alberth> you too, planet maker
13:31:13 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth, planetmaker: the first thing i ever do when getting "internal error" is disable the wrapper that catches the error, so i can actually see the backtrace, and can inspect it with pdb
13:32:47 <Alberth> doesn't -s do the same?
13:33:34 <Alberth> but the problem in this case is that it works here, no stack dump to look at and inspect
13:34:18 <Alberth> even with the stack-dump of george, the only thing you can conclude is that somewhere higher in the hierarchy you're not supposed to get at that line
13:34:47 <Alberth> but that doesn't tell me why the test fails
13:38:24 <George> Sorry, I have to go, let us return back to it in 2014-th
13:39:38 <George> P.S. Eddi|zuHause - could you explain me how should that work (the *B** and *C** should be in the trackset only, without the vehicle set being aware of them)
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13:42:42 <Alberth> George: ok, have a good time, see you next year again
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13:54:44 <Flygon> I just learned something new
13:55:00 <Flygon> Towns complain, even when noise levels are off, if you try to build a third airport
13:55:53 <Eddi|zuHause> "max 2 airports" was the behaviour of the original game
13:56:01 <Flygon> It's not possible to uncap that at all?
13:56:34 <Eddi|zuHause> you can enable noise levels, but set all levels to 0
13:56:40 <Flygon> I have a Metro line that has 3 awkwardly named terminuses, hahaha
13:56:57 <Eddi|zuHause> or there's a (hidden) setting that you can tweak
13:56:57 <Flygon> I assume that bypasses the 2 airport cap?
13:57:09 <Flygon> x3 I'll see if I hit capacity constraints
13:57:10 <Eddi|zuHause> which scales the allowed noise per population
13:59:55 <Eddi|zuHause> George: that depends on what you try to achieve. the speed of a vehicle doesn't limit which tracks it can use (unless you want to forbid slow vehicles travelling on highspeed rail, which i don't think is a great idea)
14:00:22 <Eddi|zuHause> George: so defining all vehicles for *A** should be sufficient
14:00:44 <Eddi|zuHause> George: unless you want to use the vehicle availablility to make the track types available, too
14:01:45 <Eddi|zuHause> but that approach has problems with compatibility between track sets
14:03:48 <Flygon> Annnnd FRISS just megaderped
14:03:57 <Flygon> Could build the 140km/h electrified track...
14:05:24 <George> Eddi|zuHause: I specify track availability by year, not by train available
14:05:52 <Eddi|zuHause> George: yes, that's why the vehicle set doesn't care at all
14:06:11 <George> I try achive the following: high speed tracks costs more
14:06:32 <George> so a player should choose the right track and the right train
14:09:55 <andythenorth> Alberth: cleanest way to test if a variable is an int or a tuple?
14:09:59 <andythenorth> (could be either)
14:10:17 <Alberth> don't get in that situation
14:10:44 <andythenorth> well I'm not yet :P
14:10:46 <Eddi|zuHause> George: the railtype translation table is for the vehicle set only, the trackset has no use for it (similar to how the cargo translation table has no use for the industry set).
14:10:52 <andythenorth> I was planning to be though
14:11:16 <Alberth> the idea is that you know what you get at all times
14:11:23 <andythenorth> ok I'll solve it the easy way :P
14:11:28 <andythenorth> it's always a tuple
14:11:29 <Eddi|zuHause> George: as such, the vehicle set can ignore all additional track types that it doesn't directly define vehicles for
14:11:42 <andythenorth> lots of parentheses will now appear in my code :)
14:12:08 <Alberth> lots of commas, I think :p
14:12:26 <Alberth> ie (5) and 5 are both integers
14:12:40 <George> Eddi|zuHause: And what should be changed in the current code of xussr train set?
14:12:48 <andythenorth> yes, I recall that issue
14:12:52 <andythenorth> doesn't have to be a tuple
14:13:30 <Eddi|zuHause> George: just leave out all *B** and *C** tracktypes, only use *A**
14:13:40 <Alberth> tuple(5) should work too :)
14:13:51 <George> Eddi|zuHause: I do not have yet
14:14:09 <George> this is the change that planetmaker suggested
14:16:58 <andythenorth> wonder how my compile will explode :P
14:18:17 <George> Eddi|zuHause: And how do you suggest to change it?
14:18:21 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> Alberth: cleanest way to test if a variable is an int or a tuple? <-- "try: iter(blah) catch: it's an integer"
14:20:55 <Eddi|zuHause> George: don't make the 1/2/3 distinction, only have "RL", "ELA", "ELD" and "ELS" [the last one only if you want to make dual-power engines]
14:21:54 <George> what do you mean "do not make"? And what should I do?
14:27:23 <George> compilation fails. The same way as above
14:34:35 <Eddi|zuHause> George: that error must be windows specific, i can't reproduce it
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16:35:05 <Virtual> Don't forget that the New Year is 2013S if you have an iPhone! ;)
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17:07:50 <Wolf01> good bye, I'll return in the next year ;)
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17:21:39 <Muharremm> EUZUBILLAHIMINEEYTANIRRACIM BISMILLAHIRRAHMANIRRAHIM
17:21:41 <Muharremm> ALLAHU EKBERRRRR! LA LAHE LLALLAH MUHAMMEDEN RESULULLAH!
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17:36:40 <Xaroth|Work> that.. was random o_O
17:40:07 <Rubidium> it doesn't look random to me
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18:45:13 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26190 trunk/src/lang/indonesian.txt (2013-12-31 18:45:07 UTC)
18:45:14 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:15 <DorpsGek> indonesian - 2 changes by abdu354
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19:46:45 <Eddi|zuHause> it has been 20:14 yet
19:47:25 <__ln__> just over a year until we'll have flying cars and hoverboards
19:50:34 <Eddi|zuHause> well we do have cars that know the way, talk to you, keep on the lane autonomously and park automatically
19:54:31 <Eddi|zuHause> but way more important about that movie is that for people who watch it now for the first time, the "present" of 1985 is about as far in the past as the "past" of 1955 was when the movie was released
19:58:07 <__ln__> that is indeed a bit alarming
19:59:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i wonder why they didn't attempt a remake of that movie yet
20:01:57 <__ln__> an interesting idea, especially what years would they choose for past, future, and now.
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23:04:37 <__ln__> why does everyone say that one hour late
23:07:16 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26191 trunk/changelog.txt (2013-12-31 23:07:10 UTC)
23:09:02 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26192 /trunk/src (59 files in 3 dirs) (2013-12-31 23:08:55 UTC)
23:09:03 <DorpsGek> -Fix (r24878): off-by-one error ;)
23:15:49 <Eddi|zuHause> ... or maybe 8759 hours early?
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