IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-12-30
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08:21:01 <andythenorth> it's nice that ben1338 has described a requirement for patch and gcc, from first principles :)
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08:39:20 <andythenorth> it's in a magical patching thread
08:39:41 <andythenorth> I'm not being mean about it btw
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09:03:15 <Rubidium> andythenorth: the one I made that promise in?
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09:08:00 <andythenorth> I think if I were designing a magical patching system
09:08:10 <andythenorth> I might make it so all the patches are alrady included in the binary
09:08:18 <andythenorth> and there's some kind of UI to turn them on and off
09:08:30 <andythenorth> maybe checkboxes or dropdowns or whatever
09:10:21 <Rubidium> andythenorth: but you can't include future patches
09:10:25 <Alberth> surely such a patch system could figure that out itself?
09:11:33 <andythenorth> Rubidium: you would have to get a new binary
09:11:41 <andythenorth> including all the new patches
09:12:03 <Alberth> andy, as for your question yesterday, I didn't consider trucks, but I guess so. However, I play mostly with default trucks, and they are all specialised for a particular cargo, so the need to refit with buy is not that big
09:12:06 <andythenorth> you would probably want to make sure there are no problems with these 'mods' though
09:12:15 <andythenorth> so maybe, like, developers review them first perhaps?
09:12:40 <andythenorth> patches is not a player friendly term
09:12:44 <andythenorth> so we should call them 'mods'
09:12:48 <andythenorth> or maybe 'settings'
09:13:18 <Alberth> good, we already have the advanced ones, so we can use normal ones :p
09:13:31 <Rubidium> andythenorth: but it needs to be done automatically by OpenTTD... so what I effectively suggested was making an "developer" AI, that can do everything a developer does and thus understand the repercussions of merges
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09:14:04 <Rubidium> once he has made such an AI, I can easily instruct the AI to make a binary version of it
09:14:34 <andythenorth> it does sound like a good solution
09:14:47 <andythenorth> I just forsee a meta problem
09:14:57 <andythenorth> the AI will need mods
09:15:01 <andythenorth> can it mod itself?
09:15:21 <Alberth> run an ai to setup the ai?
09:16:01 <Alberth> or better, add the ai to openttd itself, then it's part of the "developer understanding"
09:16:31 <Rubidium> andythenorth: ofcourse it can modify itself, after all it's a normal developer and if a normal developer can create the AI, then to be a normal developer it must be able to create a new one or adapt the current one
09:19:46 <andythenorth> Alberth: so how about a buy menu patch that simply shows all available vehicles with all available refits, pre-fitted?
09:19:55 <andythenorth> there would be newgrf shenanigans to deal with :p
09:20:02 <andythenorth> and it would be a *very* large buy menu
09:20:19 <andythenorth> thousands of vehicles
09:20:20 <Alberth> that's one of the experiments I aim to do
09:20:59 <Alberth> iirc there are other buy menu wishes, where you can drop unwanted parts
09:21:22 <Alberth> I have to collect those
09:21:30 <Alberth> and see what's useful
09:22:20 <Alberth> perhaps large buy menus is not so bad, and newgrf authors will stop adding insane number of vehicles :p
09:22:32 <Alberth> (unlikely to happen :) )
09:29:27 <andythenorth> what's the smallest useful capacity for an RV?
09:29:35 <andythenorth> I have to give horse carts something
09:30:06 <andythenorth> RL upper limit is 5t-8t, but meh
09:30:56 <Alberth> how's industry production?
09:31:13 <andythenorth> out of my control (somewhat) :)
09:31:21 <andythenorth> unless you provide me with a private newgrf spec :P
09:31:34 <andythenorth> to modify other people's choices on the fly :P
09:31:39 * Alberth gives andy an exclusive set of newgrf specs
09:32:16 <Alberth> trying to be compatible with everybody is not a good choice, I think
09:32:32 <andythenorth> mostly I am trying to be compatible with myself :)(
09:32:57 <andythenorth> hmm....ship set (x) train set (x) industry set (x) station set (x) RV set (x)
09:33:04 <andythenorth> and pikka has a good plane set
09:36:37 <Alberth> perhaps you should look at how little you can transport and still run a profit?
09:37:01 <Alberth> ie the idea that you can transport everything with horses is not very useful
09:39:57 <andythenorth> you need trains or trams
09:40:27 <andythenorth> road transport is crappy IRL before about 1920
09:44:09 <Alberth> is RL of any importance?
09:45:33 <andythenorth> not the most, but it's where I go for inspiration :)
09:46:09 <andythenorth> Dan and me are having more fun with the things that didn't work IRL: protototypes, one-offs, experiments :)
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09:56:24 <Alberth> oh, the regearing idea pops up again :)
10:07:19 <planetmaker> andythenorth, wrt buy menu: it could offer a two-phase buy menu. Click on vehicle could show available refits
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10:29:39 <Alberth> I was thinking to make it a tree thingie
10:30:17 <andythenorth> trees can be a bit fiddly foddly
10:30:27 <andythenorth> but they work for our small screen size requirement I guess
10:30:38 <andythenorth> they are very compact :)
10:30:50 <Alberth> yeah, but it's hard to understand if it works without actually trying it
10:31:21 <andythenorth> or we could just talk about it for months instead :D
10:32:17 <Alberth> given my RL stuff, I doubt it gets implemented any sooner than months :)
10:37:45 * andythenorth should eat own dogfood and put some trucks in
10:37:52 <andythenorth> instead of talking about it
10:38:21 <Alberth> depends on how badly you want to make progress :)
10:38:40 <andythenorth> I'd rather it was good than done
10:39:06 <andythenorth> I don't have that attitude consistently
10:39:26 <andythenorth> but we already have a well-liked truck set, there's no point making a worse one
10:39:48 <Alberth> even for 'good' you do need to make experiments and decide stuff at some point
10:40:17 <andythenorth> I shall do important first steps
10:40:26 <andythenorth> like setting up shell colours for this project :P
10:41:55 <Xaroth|Work> very important indeed
10:42:29 <andythenorth> not exactly what I had in mind
10:42:31 <andythenorth> but hours of fun
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13:16:27 <Flygon> I feel weird, having a game with a crapload of ships being actively used
13:16:47 <Flygon> Is it strange to feel so confused having such active ship use?
13:26:18 <__ln__> an important question arised #elsewhere: how did Smaug transport all that gold to the mountain?
13:27:06 <andythenorth> he let the dwarves move it there first
13:27:18 <andythenorth> epsiode 1 explains that, but is quite painfully boring to watch
13:27:36 <andythenorth> episode 2 is a bit better
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13:39:38 <__ln__> oh, good, it's realistic then
14:03:31 <Flygon> andythenorth: Depends on the game, I take it
14:46:30 <DorpsGek> Commit by fonsinchen :: r26186 trunk/src/video/cocoa/event.mm (2013-12-30 14:46:24 UTC)
14:46:31 <DorpsGek> -Fix: Don't check for equality of MAC_OS_X_VERSION_MAX_ALLOWED.
14:50:14 <DorpsGek> Commit by fonsinchen :: r26187 trunk/src/economy.cpp (2013-12-30 14:50:09 UTC)
14:50:15 <DorpsGek> -Fix: allow refitting at station if cargo has already been reserved.
14:50:51 <DorpsGek> Commit by fonsinchen :: r26188 trunk/src/economy.cpp (2013-12-30 14:50:45 UTC)
14:50:52 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Move station refitting to a separate function.
15:22:01 <Xaroth|Work> __ln__: The dwarves used to live in Erebor for quite a while, but their king was a bit of a greedy bastard
15:22:06 <Xaroth|Work> and kept collecting gold
15:22:14 <Xaroth|Work> the entire mountain is filled with gold veins as well
15:22:21 <Xaroth|Work> .. until Smaug decided to claim it all
15:22:29 <Xaroth|Work> most of it is explained in the first 15 minutes of the hobbit part 1
15:23:01 <Guest1854> if you haven't zoned out by then
15:27:35 <LordAro> the first 15 mins were fine
15:27:49 <LordAro> it was the rest of the film which you could say dragged a bit
15:28:20 <Xaroth|Work> this movie could have been done in 2 parts, 3 is just too much
15:28:26 <Xaroth|Work> especially 3x 2.5 hour movies
15:30:33 <__ln__> extended cuts are being released a year after, as with lotr
15:31:45 <Guest1854> eh, where did my nick go? :P
15:32:16 <Xaroth|Work> there's a clone of you
15:32:27 <Xaroth|Work> you probably opened your client twice :P
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15:33:45 <andythenorth> yeah, some other mac was open
15:33:59 <andythenorth> urgh, my eyes have now adjusted to retina screens
15:34:24 <andythenorth> the matrix on standard screens looks really weird
16:07:35 <Flygon> andythenorth: Could be worse
16:07:56 <andythenorth> funny how things change :(
16:08:09 <andythenorth> the retina screen is horrible
16:08:11 <Flygon> Could be going between retina, standard LCD, low-res LCD, and both high res great dot-pitch and el standardo SD CRT all in the same small house :p
16:08:14 <andythenorth> but I couldn't go back :P
16:08:23 <andythenorth> the old one looks like a cheap LCD TV now
16:08:33 <Flygon> I really gotta get my SD Trinitron replaced with a Sony PVM
16:08:43 <Flygon> But 27in ones are a pain to find, especially in Australia
16:08:55 <Flygon> It's 3:07AM. I gotta sleep 90 minutes ago
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17:54:38 <andythenorth> anybody care to test if they get Bulk Terminals in FIRS at map gen?
17:54:47 <andythenorth> needs Heart of Darkness economy, in 1.3.0
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18:35:40 <Alberth> andythenorth: I have a version labeled 2013-12-16, is that a good one?
18:36:01 <andythenorth> it's not the tagged release
18:36:03 <andythenorth> but is probably valid
18:37:18 <Alberth> ok, downloaded the release
18:38:38 <Alberth> hmm, it's not in the industry list
18:38:44 <Alberth> what cargo does it use?
18:39:07 <Alberth> oh, wrong parameter perhaps?
18:40:06 <Alberth> indeed, note to self: when upgrading the firs, reselect the economy :p
18:42:50 <Alberth> andythenorth: works, on first try, but with a lot of water
18:45:21 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26189 /trunk/src/lang (indonesian.txt korean.txt) (2013-12-30 18:45:13 UTC)
18:45:22 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:23 <DorpsGek> indonesian - 33 changes by abdu354
18:45:24 <DorpsGek> korean - 5 changes by telk5093
18:46:51 <andythenorth> Alberth: my brain thinks there is a better way to do params...
18:46:56 <andythenorth> maybe just by renaming them
18:47:07 <andythenorth> or by providing an instant view on them when you highlight a newgrf
18:49:47 <Alberth> with 256x256, hilly, low industries, and very low sea, chance is between 30-50% to get a bulk terminal
18:50:29 <Alberth> temperate climate btw
18:50:42 <Alberth> hmm, perhaps try tropical?
18:52:45 <Alberth> that has a much lower chance
18:52:56 <Alberth> I tried 5 times or so, and no bulk terminal
18:54:43 <Alberth> ah, the 7th time it succeeded
19:02:53 <Alberth> andythenorth: something specific you want tested?
19:04:42 <andythenorth> I wonder if I have some kind of 'try extra hard to build' patch locally :P
19:04:50 <andythenorth> 5 random newgames, tropic 256x256, low water
19:04:58 <andythenorth> 1 bulk terminal every time
19:06:04 <andythenorth> yeah 20 games, 4 failures
19:06:10 <andythenorth> so about 1 in 5 fail for me
19:15:25 <Alberth> I have very low water
19:18:14 <andythenorth> yeah, very low, not going to work :)
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21:00:49 <andythenorth> so I probably need to make a new layout for that industry?
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21:04:30 <Alberth> that would be one option
21:05:03 <Alberth> alternatively, you can explain that a colonial world needs ample amounts of water for ships
21:05:44 <Alberth> too bad you cannot fail with an error if you cannot build a bulk terminal
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21:10:55 <andythenorth> I probably could raise an error
21:11:00 <andythenorth> maybe not during map gen though
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