IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-12-28
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04:38:02 <Flygon> Anyone here mind if I ask a really dumb qu- right, right, the topic. Ahem, anyway
04:38:13 <Flygon> Does FRISS work with the Metro vehicles in the 2CC set?
04:38:34 <Flygon> For the Third Rail vehicles
04:39:51 <Supercheese> could inspect the source
04:39:59 <Supercheese> railtype labels will be the key, IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN
04:40:08 <Supercheese> autofilter seems to have allcapsed that
04:40:25 <Flygon> I'll just wait another... 10-20 years
04:40:29 <Supercheese> see if I can find it
04:40:48 <Flygon> I tried a brief search on my own, but it occoured to me I'm unsure what I am doing
04:41:38 <Supercheese> ah, 2CC seems to be in NFO
05:06:42 <Flygon> Supercheese: Not only does it work, I can run standard trains on it too O_o
05:07:21 <Flygon> Finally, a railset that lets me operate a system like Melbourne's
05:07:38 <Flygon> Metro EMU's crammed together with Diesel HST's fighting eachother for paths on HST track
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07:27:07 <andythenorth> auto-refittability should be noted in the buy menu by ottd
07:28:16 <andythenorth> I can note fundamentally whether a vehicle has autorefit flag set, and write that into buy menu
07:28:43 <andythenorth> but for vehicles that only have one cargo in game, it's a bit weird, because buy menu says 'Offers auto-refit' but that's lies
07:29:33 <andythenorth> we should just special case 'Refittable to:' string
07:29:39 <Alberth> it's problematic in the general sense I think, being able to refit depends on the current cargo, doesn't it?
07:29:41 <andythenorth> Refittable | Auto-refittable
07:29:56 <andythenorth> Alberth: that's a different problematic issue yes
07:30:05 <andythenorth> that is already present in the orders menu
07:31:09 <Alberth> lately I have been wondering why I cannot buy a wagon for the cargo I want
07:32:17 <Alberth> but I agree with you, it would be nice if you can see whether a wagon is auto-refittable
07:32:42 <andythenorth> I think as we have the feature, for better or worse, we should knock the edges off :)
07:32:54 <andythenorth> currently it has...problems. Fonso just fixed a big one :)
07:33:22 <andythenorth> but 'andythenorth thinks...' does not result in 'andythenorth has a patch' :)
07:33:25 <Alberth> I saw a fix flyng by, I didn't pay enough attention to know what it does :)
07:34:20 <andythenorth> solves an issue with full load preventing a refit
07:34:40 <andythenorth> caused by cargo reservations
07:34:54 <Alberth> but andy does know how to make the best of a system :)
07:36:40 <Alberth> having some future vision of the order and buy system would be useful for making a roadmap, imho
07:37:16 <andythenorth> I am +1 to having it better
07:37:26 <andythenorth> (a better vision)
07:37:57 <andythenorth> what problems does it cause you?
07:38:54 <Alberth> buying the first train requires refit for 50+% as well
07:39:42 <Alberth> for cdist I discovered it actually makes sense to have partial loading
07:39:52 <andythenorth> and for auto-refit
07:39:55 <Alberth> so you can go elsewhere to fill up further
07:40:05 <andythenorth> cargo amounts may not be matched at nodes
07:40:12 <andythenorth> leaving empty is undesirable
07:40:18 <andythenorth> leaving full may break the network
07:40:33 <andythenorth> even for a simple A-B route with autorefit to fixed cargo at each end
07:40:34 <Alberth> I played with auto-refit once, but it's pretty limited
07:40:40 <andythenorth> it's a bit weird
07:41:21 <Alberth> you cannot do "large" refits, like oil one way, and coal back
07:41:21 <andythenorth> ever used any of the conditional order methods for controlling load amount?
07:41:41 <andythenorth> you can with Squid, to some extent, and NUTS
07:42:18 <Alberth> I used conditional order for looping around between farms until loaded enough
07:42:26 <andythenorth> conditional orders are odd
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07:42:37 <andythenorth> it's a *very* specific programmatic way of thinking
07:42:37 <Alberth> but it doesn't play nice with cdist, I think
07:43:05 <andythenorth> it's a do-while loop afaict, which most players won't understand
07:43:09 <Alberth> I also used conditional orders to skip part of the unload cycle (if empty, return now)
07:43:15 <andythenorth> and FWIW, I rarely write do-while loops :P
07:43:44 <andythenorth> it's a hiring question we use for programmers, to see if they forget to close them :P
07:44:22 <Alberth> so the right answer is "I never use them? " :)
07:44:45 <andythenorth> other people clearly like them :)
07:45:01 <andythenorth> so manually refitting when you buy a vehicle is annoying?
07:45:23 <Alberth> I didn't realize it, but I think you are right. They are somewhat like programmable signals, very programmer oriented
07:46:09 <Alberth> you rarely buy a first vehicle
07:46:38 <Alberth> I even clone an existing train when adding a route withe the same cargo
07:47:02 <Alberth> which sort of suggests you really want some consist to chose
07:47:16 <Alberth> I am disgressing as well :p
07:48:19 <Alberth> another annoyance is the "smart" order system, where it automagically adds orders after selecting the first one
07:48:50 <Alberth> quite often I don't even realize it does that until it is too late
07:48:55 <andythenorth> what is it doing?
07:50:06 <Alberth> I am not sure what the conditions are to reproduce, but you have a network with some stations and trains running between them. You want to add a new route, so you build new tracks and stations
07:50:48 <Alberth> when you buy a new train, and start giving it orders, you select a station of the existing network, and then it adds orders of a train that already exists
07:51:08 <andythenorth> ah, you have a train waiting in the station?
07:51:13 <andythenorth> so you've picked its orders
07:51:57 <Alberth> maybe that's what happens, but I don't click at the train, at least not intentionally
07:52:17 <andythenorth> I've done the same
07:52:30 <andythenorth> it's good when it's good, and bad when it's bad :P
07:53:08 <Alberth> it should enable a button "finish orders" or so, in such a case
07:53:40 <andythenorth> so the annoyance of building vehicles, then having to refit...
07:54:13 <andythenorth> do you buy with double click, or with 'buy vehicle' (or translated equivalent)
07:54:18 <Alberth> oh, refitting. Can you refit say, the 3rd and 4th wagon of a long train?
07:54:40 <Alberth> I use the "buy vehicle" button
07:54:52 <Alberth> but refit with double click, I noticed
07:55:02 <andythenorth> you can refit the 3rd or 4th wagon in depot, if the newgrf permits
07:55:08 <andythenorth> but not with auto-refit
07:55:25 <Alberth> yeah, separately, but together?
07:55:53 <andythenorth> there's a drag-to-select
07:56:07 <andythenorth> 3rd and 5th not possible
07:56:15 <Alberth> ah, should try that one time, then
07:56:29 <andythenorth> ctrl does something there too
07:56:47 <Alberth> I tried ctrl clicking, but it seems to select "this wagon to end"
07:57:07 * andythenorth wondering if there should be a way to purchase vehicle directly refitted, using a drop down
07:57:14 <andythenorth> I don't know if it's a common case
07:57:29 <andythenorth> for trains I buy n vehicles, then refit in depot
07:57:31 <Alberth> I was thinking to make the buy menu longer
07:57:39 <Alberth> or foldable like a tree
07:57:55 <andythenorth> oh, ships, aircraft and trucks - they would benefit direct refitting
07:58:05 <Alberth> you could even display alternative graphics, if that's possible
07:58:17 <andythenorth> so show all available variants, with a filter?
07:58:25 <andythenorth> basically run the newgrfs refit cycle?
07:58:42 <Alberth> there is a filter already
07:59:32 <andythenorth> I was wondering about order: (a) choose vehicle, then see variants, xor (b) choose desired cargo, see vehicles
08:00:00 <andythenorth> I think we have a lot of newgrfs and such that assume (a) is the most important, for those making accurate model railways
08:00:08 <Alberth> I'd want to see all variants of a wagon always
08:00:14 <andythenorth> but I think we are discovering that (b) is more important for gameplay
08:00:46 <Alberth> the filter should indeed really be a filter, and show me the refitted alternative
08:01:16 <Alberth> (a) is useful for all those newgrfs with too many vehicles in them :)
08:01:51 <Alberth> although if you play with firs, the list is going to be long anyway :)
08:02:45 <Alberth> oh, that reminds me, am I correct in thinking that chips grain silos don't work for arctic wheat?
08:03:31 <Alberth> as for auto-refit, another annoyance is that you have to enable the cargo flow at the station
08:03:53 <Alberth> I have been pondering how to fix that from a gui perspective
08:05:15 <Alberth> frosch believes the right direction is to always have a rating for all cargos, and just enable/disable flow. I think it makes sense to do that
08:05:18 <andythenorth> Alberth: might be a CHIPS bug...quite possible
08:05:46 <andythenorth> also don't consider standard FIRS economy as 'good', it has too many cargos to take it seriously
08:05:49 <andythenorth> it's an edge case :P
08:06:22 <andythenorth> and yes, the cargo flow issue with auto-refit is in some ways minor, but also quite crippling, like toothache
08:06:24 <Alberth> although it will need an experiment to see how the rating turns out for disabled flow cargoes
08:07:49 <andythenorth> so far I think magic 'auto-refit any available' is bad
08:08:02 <andythenorth> I liked the idea a lot, but in gameplay, it doesn't work
08:08:16 <andythenorth> and I can't understand how cdist would ever work with it in a nice way
08:08:24 <Alberth> I intend the station flow stuff give it a try soon-ish, but I need to first make my coaster cars follow the coaster properly :p
08:08:39 <andythenorth> make 'Dangerous Roller Coast Tycoon'
08:09:36 <andythenorth> btw I am only used fixed cargo auto-refit
08:09:59 <andythenorth> which should probably just be called 'station refit' or something :P
08:10:48 <Alberth> in the game I played, you could auto-refit maize and fruit, iirc
08:11:17 <Alberth> but I find it quite limiting, the number of cases where different cargos need to go in the same direction is so small
08:11:43 <Alberth> also due to auto-refit limitations
08:12:50 <andythenorth> it gets used a lot for FIRS supplies I think
08:13:01 <andythenorth> from what some players have said
08:13:18 <andythenorth> but even there, due to newgrf implementations of it, not that useful
08:14:14 <Alberth> I wonder what would happen if you let go of newgrf limits
08:14:24 <andythenorth> (1) some whining
08:14:33 <andythenorth> (2) some strange graphical changes at stations
08:14:47 <andythenorth> I refuse to limit auto-refit
08:15:10 <andythenorth> the vehicle has to auto-refit to all refittable cargos, otherwise orders are broken imo
08:15:17 <Alberth> ie I often have the desire to build a common back-bone of massive high-speed transport, with local trains for serving the industries
08:15:38 <Alberth> but it's practically impossible to do that
08:16:47 <Alberth> lack of high-speed trains in 1950+, and lack of universal auto-refit, I think
08:17:23 <Alberth> mono and maglev are not that useful, as te is awful
08:17:23 <andythenorth> would guess that NUTS solves most of that?
08:17:34 <Alberth> nuts has no auto-refit
08:17:49 <andythenorth> a political decision :)
08:17:55 <Alberth> it's author doesn't believe it's a good feature :p
08:18:14 <Alberth> but yeah, mono and maglev are nice in nuts :)
08:18:35 <andythenorth> so with Squid, Iron Horse, and the truck set I'm doing, you kind of get the following:
08:18:40 <Alberth> but it means a backbone still needs a shit-load of different trains
08:18:56 <andythenorth> - pax and mail are straightforward, with some vehicles also refitting to both
08:19:13 <andythenorth> - 'general cargo' vehicles refit everything except pax, mail
08:19:23 <Alberth> pax and mail are mostly also the only useful cargo for cdist, imho
08:19:31 <andythenorth> +1 to that right now
08:19:45 <andythenorth> then we have some specialised flows, so
08:20:06 <andythenorth> - tankers for liquids, usually with a little capacity bonus
08:20:19 <andythenorth> - refrigerated with a cargo payment bonus
08:20:24 <andythenorth> - livestock with cargo payment bonus
08:20:32 <andythenorth> - 'express' cargos, usually faster
08:20:52 <andythenorth> you can load anything into a general cargo backbone
08:21:04 <andythenorth> or you can use point-to-point with the specialised vehicles
08:21:23 <Alberth> sounds just what the doctor ordered :)
08:21:24 <andythenorth> that is the theory anyway :P
08:22:13 <Alberth> so I should play with iron horse, it seems :)
08:22:28 <andythenorth> lots of glitches, but my game is fun
08:23:03 <andythenorth> so the problem with backbone is that 'load any available' isn't very good :P
08:23:16 <andythenorth> and I wonder if it's positively damaging to cdist
08:24:01 <Alberth> huh, how is it not good?
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08:25:17 <andythenorth> there are a set of issues with bad newgrf choices, which can be solved by choosing better newgrfs :P
08:25:27 <andythenorth> but also - what does it do? I can't figure out how it works :)
08:25:33 <andythenorth> which cargos does it choose to load?
08:25:44 <andythenorth> how do they know to unload?
08:25:54 <andythenorth> and how would you use them with transfers on the backbone?
08:26:25 <andythenorth> how do you stop it 'stealing' cargo intended for elsewhere?
08:27:48 <Alberth> the flow graph decides how cargo is distributed, at the moment the cargo is generated, it gets a destination, within the limits of your network
08:28:05 <Alberth> and not only a destination, also a route to it
08:28:17 <andythenorth> assuming you have some dist enabled...so all the above are solved by dist...?
08:29:02 <Alberth> you cannot stop it from "stealing" other than by not allowing it in your network
08:29:05 <andythenorth> ok so the problem isn't with 'load any available', it's a newgrf + dist problem
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08:29:51 <Alberth> I don't know how it decides what to load. I'd guess it does something simple, like FIFO
08:30:10 <Alberth> unload is trivial, since the entire route is fixed
08:31:46 <Alberth> one of the troubles is that too much freedom makes cdist act "weird", it finds routes to a destination using ways you didn't intend to use
08:32:30 <Alberth> I was moving food to 2 cities, from a factory.
08:32:54 <Alberth> the pax trains also had a food car for further distribution to other cities
08:33:30 <Alberth> since to food link to city A was overloaded, it decided to reroute some of it via city B :)
08:33:54 <Alberth> obviously one food car didn't do the trick either :p
08:34:20 <Alberth> this may be somewhat due to limitations in the order system
08:34:35 <Alberth> you cannot express "load pax, but not food"
08:35:41 <andythenorth> there's no equivalent of check boxes :)
08:36:01 <andythenorth> I was looking for screen shots of Railroad Tycoon, where much of this was solved elegantly in a single screen
08:36:16 <andythenorth> although without all of our complexity problems :)
08:36:37 <andythenorth> and on rather different foundations :)
08:38:35 <Alberth> we have the requirement that all wagons need to stay with the train at all times, which makes it all much more difficult
08:38:44 <andythenorth> also my memory was faulty :P
08:39:09 <andythenorth> I thought you could choose multiple cargos from the explicit cargo list
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08:39:14 <andythenorth> but now I think you can't
08:39:48 <andythenorth> if we had consists...that requirement could be dropped
08:39:56 <andythenorth> but I don't think that's really TTD any more then
08:44:17 <Alberth> it's useful for advanced users
08:44:25 <Alberth> but for starters, it's awful
08:45:44 <andythenorth> consists are a bit abstract
08:45:50 <andythenorth> vehicles are more like a real thing
08:46:08 <andythenorth> Railroad Tycoon 3 was basically an economy + industry game, the trains were mostly irrelevant
08:46:14 <andythenorth> the author kind of concurred
08:47:10 <andythenorth> also consists are totally meaningless for RVs, ships and planes
08:47:59 <Alberth> for ships, it may make a little sense if you could haul different cargoes at the same time
08:48:29 <Alberth> but indeed, mostly useless :)
08:48:32 <andythenorth> but then we start to string a lot of things together :)
08:48:44 <andythenorth> and our vision can also then encompass 'multi-threaded'
08:48:50 <andythenorth> and massively multiplayer :)
08:50:27 <Alberth> I agree restricting to orders and buying is sufficiently complicated already :)
08:52:19 <andythenorth> do you think that auto-refit should be consistent with depot refit w.r.t to refitting individual vehicles?
08:52:28 <andythenorth> (I am having some thoughts about order setting)
08:54:06 <Alberth> not necessarily; for something like default vehicles it makes sense, but with eg the universal wagons of nuts, I could see that auto-refit at a station is more limited
08:55:02 <Alberth> depots would be useful for servicing only, otherwise
08:55:15 <Alberth> which I think many players don't even do
08:55:16 <andythenorth> I only use them for building :)
08:55:23 <andythenorth> and scrapping :P
08:56:07 <Alberth> right, they have more uses thus :)
08:57:25 <Alberth> but perhaps universal wagons exist due to our complicated buy + refit system?
08:59:01 <Alberth> I doubt very much that all newgrf authors would be happy with auto-refit and depot refit being the same
08:59:01 <andythenorth> the annoying need to refit in depot can be sidestepped by using instead an annoying autorefit order :)
08:59:10 <andythenorth> they are wrong tbh
08:59:39 <Alberth> unfortunately, there are so many wrong solutions :)
09:00:09 <andythenorth> mostly we have been quite good with the newgrf spec though
09:00:18 <andythenorth> it's quite hard to write newgrfs that actually break the game
09:00:23 <andythenorth> you would have to be inventive
09:00:43 <Alberth> we tend to fix such holes :)
09:01:49 <andythenorth> I should file a FS against the defect :)
09:01:58 <andythenorth> I am bad at FS :P
09:02:10 <Alberth> a recent one made me laugh, you could give power to a train yet be on incompatible tracks. It resulted in a running train not getting path reservations :)
09:04:33 <andythenorth> I shipped a broken HEQS
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09:08:48 <Alberth> it missed the other train by just a few pixels :p
09:10:09 <andythenorth> HEQS trams were auto-refitting in stations, and changing length
09:10:25 <andythenorth> changing length in stations is.... frowned upon
09:11:30 <Alberth> gives interesting loading effects for trains that fit exactly in a station :)
09:13:41 * andythenorth tries to think of silly things that orders and refit ought to support
09:14:49 <andythenorth> on Sundays I want all my trains to wait in depot :P
09:15:00 <andythenorth> and I'd like to change colours with orders
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09:58:38 <andythenorth> conditional order: "this train is weak and underpowered, go via the flat route"
10:01:38 <Alberth> lol, let's just have one order, shared by all trains :p
10:03:41 <Alberth> I wonder how this relates with programmable signals
10:03:42 <andythenorth> preferably, magic
10:03:55 <andythenorth> move all the orders off the vehicles and into programmable signals
10:04:12 <andythenorth> instead of having distributed agents, try and centralise everything with some kind of master control program
10:04:15 <andythenorth> always goes well
10:04:34 <Alberth> fs 5432 is the result of too much sharing of orders, probably
10:09:01 <andythenorth> he found cloning difficult, he wants a way to add vehicles to shared orders with single click?
10:09:16 <andythenorth> hmm, as we don't have a definition for consists, maybe I withdraw that comment :)
10:11:14 <Alberth> consist is a train with a pre-defined sequence of wagons, imho
10:12:13 <Alberth> he wants a way to add vehicles to shared orders with single click? <-- that's what I read too
10:12:57 <andythenorth> so instances of a consist might have different order sets?
10:12:58 <Alberth> although I don't understand "without local changes"
10:13:39 <Alberth> sure, I'd like a "wood haul consist" for every forest -> saw mill route
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10:14:05 <andythenorth> ok, so consists and orders are not 1:1 relation
10:14:13 <andythenorth> but maybe consists are another day :)
10:14:49 <Alberth> eg a pax consist for every local pax route, and another one for longer distances
10:14:59 <andythenorth> can't find any vehicle sets with support yet :P
10:16:46 <Alberth> re 5407, if you want a really exact copy, it should have shared orders only when the original had shared orders, but that's highly complicated for the user
10:17:48 <andythenorth> exact copy is a misleading issue
10:17:57 <andythenorth> as the word clone might also be misleading
10:20:08 <andythenorth> hmm, an assert :P
10:20:30 <Alberth> yay, you broke openttd :)
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10:27:50 <andythenorth> almost worth seeing if the patch compiles
10:28:48 <Alberth> ha, my car path is totally messed up: you want to go to x-256, so let's move y from 0 to 256, and keep x at 128 :P
10:29:46 <andythenorth> why not do it all in vectors, and make it extra complicated?
10:30:12 <andythenorth> that's how I used to do it in flash :P
10:30:24 <Alberth> I use bezier curves, does that count too?
10:32:03 <andythenorth> are you moving the cars in a 3D space, or just making them follow paths on the screen?
10:32:04 <Alberth> sbr usually makes working patches :)
10:32:38 <andythenorth> probably more correct in the long run
10:32:39 <Alberth> the window doesn't look right, it should be in the order window itself
10:33:02 <Alberth> otherwise you'll never get the spirally stuff right
10:33:21 <Alberth> and 3d makes that you can compute gravity etc
10:33:21 <andythenorth> you don't have to do perspective also though? It's iso?
10:34:23 <Alberth> I compute where the car is supposed to be in 3D, then translate that coordinate to 2D, and blit the car at that position
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10:35:02 <Alberth> I still need to compute orientation, and use that to select the right car sprite
10:36:02 <andythenorth> sounds like trigonometry
10:36:14 <andythenorth> I always tried to resolve game problems to simple trig
10:36:19 <andythenorth> I can manage that kind of thing
10:36:44 <Alberth> you want to derive yaw and pitch from roll? :)
10:36:45 <andythenorth> I mean orientations and movement code and such :)
10:36:54 <Alberth> and the derivative of the path?
10:36:56 <andythenorth> everything I did was 2D
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10:37:29 <andythenorth> and flash also has animation paths, so if at all possible, I would just get things to follow those
10:37:47 <andythenorth> you can cover a lot of sins by slaving to an animation path with some randomness
10:38:03 <Alberth> flash has them too? I know that svg has them, but they may have looked at flash thus
10:38:03 <andythenorth> allegedly mario kart does the same thing for AI players
10:38:17 <andythenorth> flash was originally an animation tool, then gained scripting
10:38:34 <andythenorth> so you make an object that moves around the track / level / whatever
10:38:45 <andythenorth> animated, with stop/start control
10:38:52 <andythenorth> then track the x and y pos
10:38:59 <andythenorth> and vector towards it
10:39:25 <Alberth> making a usful AI is way too complicated, I can understand they cheat :)
10:39:33 <andythenorth> works well for enemy players in racing games etc
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10:39:42 <andythenorth> also level monsters
10:40:56 <andythenorth> so that cargo unload / load order thing looks interesting
10:41:08 <andythenorth> I think it's probably anti-cdist though
10:41:36 <Alberth> it's the right direction imho
10:41:48 <Alberth> except it shouldn't be a 2nd window
10:42:17 <Alberth> not sure how it is anti-cdist, cdist stays in limits you create
10:43:22 <Alberth> ie you don't give up control over the cargo flow, mostly
10:44:03 <Alberth> unlike yacd, where you get a cargo flow, and you have to make your network match the flow
10:44:29 <andythenorth> oh of course, this way we would have a nice deterministic link graph :)
10:44:31 <andythenorth> silly andythenorth
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11:32:54 <fonsinchen> Oh, miles of backlog ... :/
11:34:11 <andythenorth> fonsinchen: I found a problem with the refit fix, and owe you a savegame
11:37:42 <fonsinchen> I think we should make a FS task to keep things organized. FS#4953 doesn't really fit.
11:39:26 <andythenorth> I have a save now
11:39:43 <andythenorth> although I can't trigger the assert I saw last time I tested
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11:41:53 <fonsinchen> Can you please add the savegame and whatever information you have about the assert there?
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12:51:16 <andythenorth> urgh, FS reposted my form :P
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13:21:47 <andythenorth> trying to decide if seagulls would look good at ports
13:21:58 <andythenorth> or if they'd be stupid pixely blobs that look stuck on
13:22:05 <andythenorth> (animated flying seagulls)
13:23:40 <andythenorth> and whether sheep and cows in fields should move occasionally (as a herd / flock)
13:24:13 <Eddi|zuHause> didn't someone already make animated seagulls as objects?
13:26:59 <andythenorth> bit busy, they have to cycle constantly
13:27:52 <andythenorth> also bloody enormous, like flying sheep :)
13:27:57 <andythenorth> but nice grf anywya
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15:48:05 <andythenorth> git > hg for merges :P
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17:30:40 <fonsinchen> The whole refit-at-station feature is broken by design. Why did we add it in the first place?
17:40:30 <andythenorth> fonsinchen: dunno :)
17:40:35 <andythenorth> it seemed popular
17:40:41 <andythenorth> but it has so many issues ;)(
17:42:27 <fonsinchen> My patch fixes the issue that you can't refit + full load if the the old cargo is present in the station - even without articulated vehicles.
17:42:51 <fonsinchen> This situation was created by the introduction of cargo reservations.
17:43:20 <andythenorth> we either think it's acceptable for newgrf to silently break orders, or....um,
17:43:26 <andythenorth> seems bad anyway
17:44:29 <fonsinchen> I think I've noticed that with opengfx+ trains
17:44:51 <fonsinchen> You can select a coal->grain refit in the order list but it won't be carried out.
17:45:04 <fonsinchen> coal->ore is OK, though
17:45:10 <andythenorth> and you won't be notified
17:45:47 <andythenorth> and I could write a grf that makes the decision completely stupidly, like random or such
17:46:15 <andythenorth> although that's not the only stupid thing I could do in a grf :D
17:46:38 <andythenorth> but the presence of 'refit any available' makes it entirely non-deterministic, so we can't really even try and offer a warning to player
17:46:50 <michi_cc> What's the difference to randomizing speed, power or whatever based on phase of moon? NewGRF authors should simply show some restraint when using CB 15E.
17:47:15 <fonsinchen> Why did they include that flag in the spec? It's bound to make problems.
17:48:20 <andythenorth> michi_cc: I accept the argument, but if I randomise power / speed etc, the game will eventually tell me a train is lost or whatever, if I get 0 for the values
17:48:35 <andythenorth> and also everyone would agree that setting those values to 0 is stupid
17:48:55 <andythenorth> but we seem to think that preventing refits on arbitrary conditions is actually desirable :)
17:49:33 <andythenorth> don't get me wrong, I want the feature to succeed, I was an advocate for it
17:49:37 <andythenorth> refitting in depot is boring
17:49:48 <fonsinchen> The people definig that spec must have been drunk
17:56:39 <andythenorth> well sometimes it's nice to just try and get something done, instead of discussing for years :)
17:56:53 <andythenorth> and players seem to like it
17:57:05 <andythenorth> although I had to redesign and entire ship set to accomodate it :P
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18:06:13 <Rubidium> andythenorth: but look how much of TTD needed to be redesigned to bring you that possibility
18:07:18 <andythenorth> should have used XML :P
18:12:57 <andythenorth> where is the thing where we say 'OpenTTD is not military'
18:13:02 <andythenorth> can't find it on openttd.org
18:14:14 <andythenorth> old forum results say it's on ottd wiki, but I can't find it there
18:17:03 <andythenorth> so I assume it still stands?
18:18:37 <andythenorth> FIRS won't be growing a military economy then :)
18:19:33 <Alberth> maybe we should add that it we don't aim to make a RL simulation
18:20:08 <andythenorth> that ship has sailed
18:21:07 <andythenorth> to help solve the Dutch set's problem :)
18:21:36 <Alberth> fork, and make a sane setup :p
18:21:54 <andythenorth> we really miss important stuff, like sustained power output, not just peak output
18:22:02 <andythenorth> engines can't run at max power for hours on end
18:22:24 <andythenorth> the dutch set problem (see their thread) would be solved by a spec extension
18:22:56 <andythenorth> freight locomotives can't run at sustained 50km/h in the 19th Century, they have small wheels, and the rotational speed degrades their axle bearings, or causes fires
18:23:08 <andythenorth> passenger engines have larger wheels and more expensively machine bearings
18:23:18 <andythenorth> these things are important, right? :P
18:23:33 <andythenorth> in fact that can all be done in newgrf
18:23:37 <andythenorth> with a tick counter or such
18:23:59 <andythenorth> set the animation frame if you've been travelling at top speed for n tiles
18:24:07 <andythenorth> then use that to force reduced speed
18:24:29 <andythenorth> also we miss incompatible signalling systems
18:24:41 <andythenorth> and the type of multiple-control equipment on locomotives
18:24:50 <andythenorth> and union agreements about the number of drivers and guards
18:24:55 <andythenorth> and brake force calculations
18:25:03 <andythenorth> and coupling types
18:25:08 <andythenorth> and minimum chain curves
18:25:13 <andythenorth> and max gradeability
18:25:16 <andythenorth> all very important :P
18:25:54 * andythenorth may have digressed
18:26:06 <andythenorth> so no war in FIRS then
18:26:47 <Alberth> you forgot about non-45 degrees curves
18:32:51 * Pinkbeast would love to see proper semaphore signalling in OTTD actually (runs away)
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18:38:28 * fonsinchen just got a second screw stuck in that old PowerBook :(
18:39:05 <fonsinchen> Never gonna open that thing without destroying the keyboard again, I guess
18:39:21 <Matulla> hi question is it posible to see the towns that need water or food to grom in a list
18:45:17 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26184 trunk/src/lang/welsh.txt (2013-12-28 18:45:09 UTC)
18:45:18 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:19 <DorpsGek> welsh - 126 changes by kazzie
18:45:43 <Alberth> hmm, I wouldn't know any simple way to get that information
18:47:24 <Alberth> perhaps with the minimap, look eg for towns in the desert
18:52:29 <Matulla> agree but on large scale there are many and so lots of time town does not grow cause of not supplyed
18:54:19 <Alberth> I can imagine, but I never play for town growth
18:54:50 <Matulla> some do that some different
18:57:21 <Alberth> quite a lot of "some", judging by the forum questions :)
18:58:02 <Matulla> BYE have a nice wekend its the last in 2013
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19:23:25 <andythenorth> some kind of demand overlay on the map is an idea I tried to figure out once
19:23:49 <andythenorth> I wondered if it could be done the way TTRS grf does it, with custom ground tiles, and just use transparent
19:24:11 <andythenorth> whichever newgrf provides the cargos provides the icons to overlay
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23:31:40 <__ln__> can /ð/ and /θ/ be a minimal pair in english?
23:49:42 <__ln__> the first sound of e.g. 'this' and 'think', respectively. is there some word where changing just that one sound to the other changes the meaning of the word.
23:50:44 <Eddi|zuHause> that would mean they'd be written the same, just spoken differently
23:51:55 <Eddi|zuHause> there are words in french that are spoken the same and written differently
23:52:17 <__ln__> in english as well, for example knight and night
23:52:58 <Eddi|zuHause> well you know this sketch "what are you thinking about?"
23:53:37 <__ln__> no, not by that name at least
23:54:57 <Eddi|zuHause> that is probably very close to your question
23:57:29 <Eddi|zuHause> where can i disable autoplaying videos when browsing the steam shop?
23:58:14 <__ln__> yes, that's basically the idea, but for a bit different phonemes
23:59:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't think of any example
23:59:59 <Eddi|zuHause> in general, having such "minimal pairs" sounds like a bad thing to have
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