IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-11-03
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02:45:09 <Snowfyre> lots a people, so little chatting, heya!
02:47:44 <Eddi|zuHause> why would anyone chat at 4AM?
02:49:29 <Snowfyre> eh, its 7:50 pm for me
02:50:33 <Eddi|zuHause> but 90% of this community is european
02:56:41 <Snowfyre> so, what would a good, central station station look like? mine looks like this http://i.imgur.com/dAlyZ7x.png but i have traffic issues with around 20 diesel trains going through it so far the speed of monorail trains keep the traffic to a minimum
03:18:31 <Japa> My stations tend to become huge messes.
03:19:06 <Eddi|zuHause> by the looks of it you should rethink the paths that trains on exit take if they need to turn around, so they don't block as many paths as they do currently. especially they should not go through the station again
03:29:32 <Supercheese> zomg, another user in this channel in GMT -8 timezone
03:29:41 <Supercheese> I thought I was the only one
03:30:05 <Snowfyre> i havent had much issues with traffic caused by trains turning around, i actually haven't tried this set up with diesel trains but before I had that cross in the track right where the 2 lanes split into 4, as for trains crossing when turning around, most of my trains seem to prefer the inner lanes
03:31:57 <Supercheese> perhaps you could divert the bypass-tracks on the outside to not merge back to the mainline until they have over/underpassed the turning-around loop
03:32:35 <Supercheese> pretty easy change, just an extra tunnel or bridge per bypass
03:33:39 <Supercheese> that way they would also be bypassing any depot traffic
03:34:48 <Supercheese> in your second screen, there are too many sharp corners, those will limit train speeds
03:36:21 <Snowfyre> i might try a tunnel bypass when traffic becomes problematic again, about the corners, where at?
03:40:54 <Eddi|zuHause> anything that has two curves in very short succession is too sharp
03:41:06 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. trains from the outer tracks into the station
03:41:23 <Eddi|zuHause> they have two left turns and two right turns immediately after each other
03:41:41 <Eddi|zuHause> pull the signals back one tile, and have a longer diagonal
03:41:49 <Eddi|zuHause> makes only one left and one right turn
03:41:58 <Eddi|zuHause> which is a special case that doesn't limit your speed
03:42:38 <Eddi|zuHause> also, remove the signal on the entrance of the platform
03:42:54 <Eddi|zuHause> trains should NEVER wait at that location, as they will block everything
03:46:04 <Snowfyre> hrm cant find where that slowing turn is
04:02:30 <Supercheese> Any turns that are two 45° turns in the same direction on the same tile are bad
04:03:02 <Supercheese> eh, this font doesn't work well
04:06:55 <Snowfyre> ah i see, its going to be a pain to fix all of those
04:08:51 <Snowfyre> though the majority of my tracks are straight, only time they go through those is if they are going into that station to unload, i know of a few areas i could probably change for the speed thing
04:09:37 <Supercheese> if the sharp corners only occur right before the train enters the station, that's fine
04:09:42 <Supercheese> trains must slow to a stop at the station anyway
04:11:10 <Snowfyre> yea, the sharp corners are only before and after the stations usualy, ive got a few joining tracks that can be altered to get rid of the slow down though
04:44:43 <Snowfyre> i realy should think about getting some aircraft in my game
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05:59:06 <Snowfyre> just replaced everything with mag lev now redoing ll my trains and seeing just how much the speed changes things
06:39:10 <Snowfyre> ok so, mag lev mae the slow downs painfully obvious so im going to start a new map, fixing it with trains running through it all made a realy big mess X3
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07:58:04 <andythenorth> trying to explain the vehicle colour UI to a 3.5 year old
07:58:15 <andythenorth> for christmas maybe?
07:58:58 <andythenorth> 'first check that little box, then click the green so it goes white, oops, no that's yellow, you need to make it white, now choose blue'
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08:36:09 <SpComb> ./openttd --vehicle-colors=white:blue
08:36:30 <andythenorth> I'll teach him that :)
08:40:21 <LeandroL> is anyone able to access btpro.nl?
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10:51:44 <NGC3982> Guys, i noticed something fantastic
10:52:36 <NGC3982> While recently re-visiting Roddenberry's The original series, i noticed that recall the sounds used in the episodes from other places
10:52:40 <NGC3982> So i did some research
10:53:22 <NGC3982> It seems like Paramount was later (or sooner) choosen to create a pack of "standard samples" for the BBC
10:53:40 <NGC3982> Later using most, or variations of it in newer material
10:54:04 <NGC3982> Like Dr Who and the older version of The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy TV series.
10:55:55 *** Taede_ is now known as Taede
10:58:40 <NGC3982> Also, not to promote piracy
11:03:43 <peter1138> "roddenberry's the original series" cringe
11:05:17 <NGC3982> I figured busting hilights like a mf using the S word around here.
11:06:23 <peter1138> 'the' is a bit misplaced there.
11:13:17 <MNIM> peter1138: the 'The' is actually part of the series name, so it could be argued
11:14:43 <peter1138> It was called "Star Trek"
11:14:53 <andythenorth> aren't semantics banned on Sundays?
11:15:07 <andythenorth> oh, this isn't semantics
11:17:18 <NGC3982> When the community refers to it as "The Original Series" and even shortens it to "TOS" (and not "OS"), i figured that was the best way to describe it.
11:17:28 <NGC3982> Also: Kind of douchy.
11:17:54 <NGC3982> Also: I don't think i like TOS as much as the rest of 'em. :(
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11:18:50 <NGC3982> Andy: That's a very bad word.
11:18:59 <peter1138> Didn't like much after TNG.
11:19:12 <andythenorth> NGC3982: it's the noise a lazy frosch123 makes
11:19:25 <peter1138> And the Quantum Leap guy one... yuck.
11:20:13 <__ln__> peter1138: DS9 seasons 4..7 are actually very good.
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11:29:11 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, enterprise was... weird
11:29:58 <NGC3982> I haven't seen it yet.
11:30:07 <NGC3982> And i hesitate if i should even try.
11:33:01 <MNIM> just as long as we're not going to talk about delancie. >.>
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12:26:09 <NGC3982> That has been put up in __ln__ ?
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13:08:52 <basicsquirrel> may i have a question please?
13:09:18 <basicsquirrel> about playing ttd
13:09:50 <basicsquirrel> i wanted to send money to an AI
13:09:55 * Alberth gives basicsquirrel a question
13:10:55 <Alberth> usually, you just ask the question around here :)
13:11:14 <Alberth> hmm, I don't know how that works with AIs
13:13:50 <Alberth> euhm, is the actual question that it refuses to allow you to do so?
13:14:13 <Alberth> or is the question how to do that?
13:14:31 <frosch123> i think you can only send money in multiplayer
13:14:48 <frosch123> and you can also only send it to "clients", so only to humans
13:14:57 <frosch123> in singleplayer yuo can use cheats to give ais money
13:17:15 <basicsquirrel> okay. i solve the problem with cheat. thanks for help
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14:04:16 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: does CETS do anything like UKRS 'shunting' - e.g. tank engine graphics at rear of consist?
14:06:01 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not compatible with variating vehicle lengths and stuff
14:09:27 <andythenorth> dunno how pikka does it
14:09:32 <andythenorth> could ask him :P
14:13:44 <V453000> one of the most broken features if you ask me :P
14:14:51 <andythenorth> V453000: have you ever thought about including 'shunting'? o_O
14:15:06 <andythenorth> I don't why I thought to ask that, just occurred to me out of the blue...
14:15:33 <V453000> I have no idea why would you do that
14:15:43 <V453000> causes engines to go reverse after terminus stations?
14:15:58 <FLHerne> V453000: Aesthetic purposes, but we already discussed those :P
14:17:06 <V453000> having your train rather randomly flip is aesthetic?
14:18:03 <FLHerne> V453000: No, having your train *not* randomly flip is aesthetic
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14:18:46 <FLHerne> If I'm thinking of the same thing, it's where when a train reverses-flips it flips again in order not to appear to have flipped at all
14:19:28 <FLHerne> And THAT is aesthetic :D
14:19:58 <peter1138> wasn't there a patch to support properly?
14:20:47 <frosch123> yes, it's in hg checkout 5 or so
14:21:05 <andythenorth> why patch it, when I could write complicated nml to do it?
14:21:22 <andythenorth> and every other set author can do the same, only different
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14:24:16 <peter1138> and all incompatible
14:24:32 <andythenorth> which is the best way of course
14:24:38 <andythenorth> newgrf sets should not be combined
14:24:41 <andythenorth> it ruins the realism
14:26:12 <peter1138> best not use them at all
14:26:16 <peter1138> they're all useless
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14:26:43 <peter1138> there's no realism so what's the point in changing stats
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14:28:57 <andythenorth> what is the emoticon for "I am telling lies" ?
14:33:36 <peter1138> is there a simpler way to do... where foo = bar or (foo is null and bar is null)
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15:01:06 <andythenorth> there really should be some kind of centralised service for newgrfs
15:02:37 <FLHerne_> andythenorth: Do you mean some sort of library system like the AI folks have?
15:02:49 <andythenorth> I mean one place to get newgrfs from
15:02:57 <andythenorth> instead of all these multiple lists and locations
15:03:23 <FLHerne_> andythenorth: We have one of those, except for a few authors?
15:03:44 <FLHerne_> It might be better with descriptions and images on a proper web-interface though :-)
15:05:06 <Thurak> where are newGRF's saved on HDD?
15:05:10 <Thurak> im playing from the .zip
15:05:40 <Alberth> I doubt that, OpenTTD can't read .zip files :)
15:05:52 <Thurak> i downloaded the .zip for the game
15:05:58 <Thurak> instead of the installer
15:06:25 <Thurak> and it doesnt seem that they are saved in that folder as i started a fresh one and i still have all my newGRF's
15:06:51 <Alberth> the readme explains in detail where stuff is searched
15:06:59 <FLHerne_> Thurak: ~/.openttd/[content download]/newgrf
15:14:24 <andythenorth> so let's say I have a consist made up of 4 foo engines, and some wagons
15:14:39 <andythenorth> I want to provide special graphics for first and last foo
15:16:59 <frosch123> position in chain of vehicles with same id
15:17:36 * andythenorth translates to nml :P
15:17:37 <frosch123> but weren'T you doing nml? :p
15:18:02 <andythenorth> but I prefer reading the actual spec
15:18:38 <andythenorth> nml is a bit magical
15:19:09 <andythenorth> so I'd want to count the num vehicles in the ID chain too
15:19:22 <andythenorth> otherwise there will be unwanted results for single engine :)
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15:32:26 <andythenorth> to find if an engine is at odd or even position, I need some clever modulo thing?
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15:34:47 <andythenorth> % operator does what?
15:35:40 * andythenorth is not good at basic maths
15:36:04 <Taede> % 2 divides by 2, and gives you remainder
15:36:13 <Taede> if remainder is 1, then the number was an odd number
15:36:22 <Taede> if remainder is 0, then it was an even number
15:40:10 <andythenorth> now I have the fun problem that each 'engine' is made up of 3 articulated parts :)
15:40:28 <andythenorth> so var 41 will be totally broken for me :)
15:40:40 <Taede> is it 3 parts at all times?
15:40:45 <frosch123> are you not using the same id for all parts?
15:40:48 <V453000> defining switched sprites is easy
15:40:58 <Alberth> make a wagon also as 3 sprites :p
15:41:01 <Eddi|zuHause> 1 vs 3 makes no difference wrt oddness
15:41:25 <andythenorth> breaks var 41 though :)
15:41:51 <andythenorth> could use same ID for all, with lots of cb 36?
15:42:27 <Eddi|zuHause> can't use var 61 in cb36
15:43:02 <FLHerne_> andythenorth: Are you making an autoflipping long-vehicled smooth-cornering generic trainset? :o
15:43:16 *** FLHerne_ is now known as FLHerne
15:44:17 <FLHerne> Good :D Now...which bits of that were wildly off? All of it?
15:46:01 <Eddi|zuHause> autoflipping must be implemented in OpenTTD directly
15:46:37 <Eddi|zuHause> and smooth-cornering is too difficult for andythenorth to comprehend :p (let alone the amount of work to draw it)
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16:19:32 <andythenorth> can var 61 get the ID of a vehicle?
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16:21:41 <Eddi|zuHause> there was something like that, but i don't remember
16:26:33 <Snowfyre> o.o wow, absolutely no idea what you guys are talking about X3
16:28:34 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, that may be dangerous when combining grfs
16:33:02 <andythenorth> fancy graphics are over-rated anyway
16:33:15 <andythenorth> as is flipping engines
16:33:20 <andythenorth> double-headed engines
16:33:26 <andythenorth> rear lights on coaches
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16:38:59 <andythenorth> V453000: do you bother with any clever graphics (other than MOAR cargos)?
16:39:00 <Eddi|zuHause> make rear lights by recolouring?
16:39:26 <andythenorth> I am over-stating the difficulty :)
16:39:36 <andythenorth> rear lights can be handled by counting from rear of consist
16:40:02 <andythenorth> wonder if livery over-rides still work for me?
16:40:13 <andythenorth> they are bonkers, and I never understood them...but
16:40:17 <Eddi|zuHause> don't use livery overrides
16:40:38 * andythenorth easily convinced
16:40:56 <Eddi|zuHause> but there's no reason why they wouldn't work
16:41:23 <Eddi|zuHause> just they're a stupid concept
16:50:43 <frosch123> s/stupid/deprecated/
16:56:48 <V453000> what do you mean by clever graphics andy?
16:57:05 <V453000> flipping trains are excellent, I even add automatic flipping for rear engines
16:57:14 <V453000> dual head is great for some things like slugs or ships
16:57:21 <V453000> moar cargoes is obviously key :)
16:57:31 <V453000> rear lights are meh but cant hurt
17:01:29 <frosch123> the time you can spend on a discussion is inverse proportional to the amount of pixels you are discussing
17:01:55 <Thurak> hm.. just had powercut but i still have internet
17:02:06 <Thurak> guess its just this side of the house then
17:02:30 <Eddi|zuHause> checked the fuses?
17:06:55 <andythenorth> frosch123: you're right of course, but that assumes this is a rational project :P
17:07:30 <frosch123> i thought someone would make a comparison between pixels and money now
17:08:06 <andythenorth> anyway, I just invented a way to support flipping wth articulated vehicles
17:08:17 <andythenorth> first the player has to build an invisible engine 'the control unit'
17:08:25 <andythenorth> and then attach 'real engines'
17:08:40 <andythenorth> flipping the 'control unit' causes the 'engines' to reverse their graphics
17:08:48 <frosch123> i thought you were talking about a rational project?
17:09:18 <Taede> is that a puzzle minigame within openttd?
17:09:24 <andythenorth> more rationally, I'm just going to randomise some graphics forward / reversed on build
17:09:31 <andythenorth> and let the player sort it out
17:09:38 <Eddi|zuHause> or you could just implement flipping for articulated vehicles?
17:10:12 <frosch123> andythenorth: yeah, do it the nuts way. some slugs are randomised to go backwards
17:11:05 <Eddi|zuHause> if you can read the (internal) vehicle id you can just flip every second vehicle
17:11:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i was thinking of that for ICE2 type trains
17:12:53 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: flipping every second vehicle looked plausible, but you put me off with issue of other newgrfs :P
17:16:13 <Eddi|zuHause> not every-second-in-chain but every-second-purchased
17:16:33 <Eddi|zuHause> so they're flipped on purchase and not changed again
17:16:52 <Eddi|zuHause> but in a deterministic way instead of randomized
17:19:55 <andythenorth> I thought of a counter in each depot
17:20:02 <andythenorth> either total, or just flip-flop
17:20:10 <andythenorth> counter would be more useful
17:20:22 <Eddi|zuHause> that won't happen
17:21:11 <Eddi|zuHause> either a variable "number of vehicles of this type in existence" or just the vehicle pool index
17:21:44 <Eddi|zuHause> "number of vehicles in existence" would be the same as in the autoreplace window
17:21:48 <andythenorth> per company, or global?
17:22:00 <Eddi|zuHause> that would be per company
17:22:25 <andythenorth> weird side effects in MP?
17:22:30 <Eddi|zuHause> the vehicle pool index is probably global
17:23:20 <andythenorth> weird side effects when cloning consists too :)
17:23:21 <Eddi|zuHause> the pool index might be nondeterministic as it could fill in gaps
17:23:44 <Eddi|zuHause> and the number of vehicles in existence must be saved somewhere in the vehicle, but there is no storage for that
17:32:36 <andythenorth> so randomising forward / reversed on build is good enough
17:32:52 <andythenorth> it's a bit annoying that cloned consists don't keep the order, but that's what random means :P
17:33:18 <andythenorth> so umm....did anyone ever request player-configurable vehicle liveries? o_O
17:33:33 <Eddi|zuHause> per vehicle group
17:34:03 <Eddi|zuHause> per vehicle you can do by refitting
17:38:04 <andythenorth> only if the vehicle has cargo capacity
17:38:30 <Eddi|zuHause> you can set capacity to 0 via cb36 after refitting
17:47:04 <andythenorth> newgrfs can also 'install' liveries
17:47:21 <andythenorth> authors can offer reversed sprites there if wanted, with no extra code clutter
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17:49:51 <Eddi|zuHause> exposing livery to newgrfs may cause all sorts of troubles
17:50:11 <Eddi|zuHause> expecially with the "don't show liveries of other companies" switch
17:51:41 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: it is already exposed, and that switch is ignored
17:51:45 <frosch123> but i likely missed the topic
17:52:17 <Eddi|zuHause> how is it exposed?
17:52:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i thought it's only "return me 256 recolour masks and i pick the right one for the livery selected"
17:53:11 <frosch123> i think even nuts uses 1st-cc + custom 2-nd-cc
17:53:37 <andythenorth> I am not particularly +1 to my drawing
17:53:46 <andythenorth> I just think it's the logical conclusion for stuff like flipping vehicles
17:53:52 <andythenorth> which is only a visual effect
17:54:03 <andythenorth> and other similar visual effects are sought
17:54:34 <andythenorth> I thiink the gameplay benefits of something like tech levels would be orders of magnitude bigger than arsing around with liveries :)
17:55:40 <Eddi|zuHause> whatever, i don't really do company colours
17:56:26 * andythenorth faces a mercurial branch merge
17:56:30 <andythenorth> wonder how that will go?
17:57:03 <Eddi|zuHause> type "hg merge" and wade through the conflicts?
17:57:17 <andythenorth> just wondering what the merge strategy is
17:57:27 <andythenorth> merge master to branch first, or merge branch to master?
17:57:39 <andythenorth> with git I merge master to branch first always
17:57:46 <frosch123> usually you do not give any param
17:57:53 <frosch123> just do "hg merge" or even "hg rebase"
17:58:41 <andythenorth> hg merge finds nothing to merge
17:59:08 <andythenorth> I guess I merge with a rev
18:00:30 <andythenorth> no merge tool :P
18:02:12 <Eddi|zuHause> well you give the name of the branch to merge with
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18:03:33 <andythenorth> I can't prove it, but I think git is better at merging than hg
18:03:57 <andythenorth> dunno if it's worth the hassle of switching though
18:04:19 <andythenorth> ugh, merge conflicts only due to whitespace :D
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18:39:54 <Thurak> is there a simple way to calculate speed v capacity
18:40:35 <Thurak> 37T at 265kmh, or 195T at 84kmh
18:41:08 <Thurak> the second one would carry more in a given timeframe, but you also get bonuses for transporting fast..
18:45:05 <Eddi|zuHause> there are formulas for that, but i don't know if anyone has gathered them in an easy calculator
18:45:14 <FLHerne> Or not, considering your last statement
18:45:27 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25937 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2013-11-03 18:45:19 UTC)
18:45:28 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:29 <DorpsGek> simplified_chinese - 3 changes by siu238X
18:45:30 <DorpsGek> traditional_chinese - 8 changes by siu238X
18:45:32 <DorpsGek> greek - 9 changes by Evropi
18:45:35 <FLHerne> Depends on the cargo ageing rate
18:46:02 <FLHerne> Which isn't always constant even for the same cargo, so also on the distance
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19:08:55 <Thurak> how have i managed to get so rich with so many mistakes..
19:09:17 <Thurak> just hit £1mill, but i think i have about 100 trucks sat there doing nothing because i forgot to refit them to iron
19:12:44 <Eddi|zuHause> the game is just too easy :p
19:12:52 <MNIM> Thurak: RVs generally don't contribute much to your income in OTTD
19:12:58 <MNIM> also, yes, ottd tends to be easy
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19:58:46 <LordAro> MNIM: ah, but if you use eGVTS (i can never spell it) and TTRS, an extremely profitable rv only game is possible
19:59:47 <frosch123> LordAro: it's name is "extended road vehicle and tram set"
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