IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-09-08
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06:47:18 <andythenorth> don't use mixins for instantiation
06:48:19 <andythenorth> I'll just grab values from global_ constants instead then :P
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09:18:39 <Alberth> still enjoying openttd? :)
09:22:20 <Rubidium> there're like 60 bugs...
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09:29:01 <planetmaker> adf88 is very busy creating issues. And fixing them at the same time
09:30:03 <SamanthaD> right now I'm hacking emacs though...
09:52:04 <SamanthaD> anyway... bedtime for me
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10:07:57 <Wolf01> I cleaned my keyboard today, I think a standard keyboard could double its mass every 3 years
10:09:41 <Alberth> I shake it while holding it upside down, amazing what comes out of it then :)
10:11:19 <Wolf01> and it's amazing what don't come out, I had to rip off all of the keys to get rid of hairs, biscuits, a gnome village under the right ctrl key
10:12:26 <Alberth> yeah, keyboards are one of the dirtiest areas in an office iirc
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10:44:58 <Malinux-> I guess it's a newgrf who causes this. The standard live-stock-wagons give negative income when they deliver livestock to a station
10:45:08 <Malinux-> instead of. income it says it costs to deliver
10:45:33 <planetmaker> you use transfer orders
10:45:48 <planetmaker> and the initially estimated income is higher than the actual.
10:45:56 <planetmaker> thus the last vehicle delivering gets negative income
10:46:03 <planetmaker> overall you still make money with the delivery
10:49:01 <Malinux-> ah, but there is a message in top of the train when it deliver live-stock. the message says xxxxx cost
10:49:33 <Malinux-> but the station I pick up from is a transfer-station, so it gets transfered livestock from it
10:51:10 <planetmaker> Malinux-, read up in our wiki upon transfer orders :-)
10:51:27 <Weirdlittleeye> is there an easy way to get linear infrastructure maintenance costs?
10:52:01 <planetmaker> yes. Switch them off :-D
10:52:06 <planetmaker> it's linear with slope 0 then
10:52:16 <Malinux-> planetmaker: okey, this is the first time I have seen this :)
10:52:19 <Weirdlittleeye> i know, but i was thinking about something more demanding :(
10:52:38 <planetmaker> Weirdlittleeye, then switch them on. But then it's not exactly linear
10:52:49 <planetmaker> which can be considered demanding
10:53:18 <planetmaker> Malinux-, it's quite usual when using transfers. You can shift the income between the 'legs' of the transfer parts
10:53:25 <planetmaker> should be described in wiki in detail, too
10:53:34 <planetmaker> it's some adv. setting
10:54:38 <Malinux-> planetmaker: this means I have to do something about the transfer trains?
10:54:52 <Weirdlittleeye> so i assume there isn't any easy way to get it linear.. basecosts.grf i assume only multiplies the non-linear scaling
10:55:06 <Malinux-> the train in the picture has not a tansfer order, but it picks up transfered livestock
10:56:07 <planetmaker> Weirdlittleeye, yes, that only sets the general level by scaling stuff linearily by the selected factor
10:56:31 <planetmaker> Malinux-, yes. transfered cargo is the key
10:57:15 <Malinux-> planetmaker: thanx. I have to check out the transfered cargo :)
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11:55:06 <Weirdlittleeye> i guess the nearest i can get to linear infrastructure costs is to increase vehicle running costs using basecosts.. there is some of the same effect, but it doesn't take into account infrastructure usage synergy
11:56:21 <planetmaker> Weirdlittleeye, also non-linear costs for infrastructure requires usage synergy. It actually requires it even more
11:56:30 <planetmaker> the more you build, the better you have to use it
11:56:34 <Weirdlittleeye> yes, i tried it
11:56:47 <Weirdlittleeye> but i think linear would be more fun
12:18:23 <Weirdlittleeye> i had an idea of demand-based economy, and then i checked the forums and YACD seemed to be closest to my idea.. gonna try it now
12:18:59 <Weirdlittleeye> if it works like i think it might, it is a tremendous improvement over the a-bit-silly default economy
12:19:00 <planetmaker> Weirdlittleeye, did you try a nightly build and play with cargodist?
12:19:16 <Weirdlittleeye> no, i checked the description of cargodist though
12:19:29 <planetmaker> well. That's what openttd now ships with
12:19:33 <Weirdlittleeye> but it didn't seem so close to demand-driven economy
12:19:50 <planetmaker> yes not exactly as close. But the gameplay is rather similar
12:19:53 <Weirdlittleeye> more like a solution for some problems created by the existing model
12:20:28 <andythenorth> YACD is closes to demand driven idea
12:20:34 <andythenorth> there is no price mechanic in ottd
12:21:30 <andythenorth> price would be fun imho, but it's a whole extra layer of complications
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12:22:00 <Weirdlittleeye> i guess it depends on the design, but i'll have to test YACD first.. might take some time :)
12:22:52 <andythenorth> YACD is sadly not up to date with trunk
12:23:14 <Weirdlittleeye> there are a bunch of compiled things i gathered
12:23:28 <Weirdlittleeye> how far is nightly from stable?
12:23:52 <Weirdlittleeye> is there a difference changelog or such?
12:24:10 <planetmaker> yes... the repo changelog
12:24:26 <planetmaker> for nightlies. stables ship with changelog
12:24:31 <Alberth> everything in the trunk commits which is not in the changelog of stables
12:24:41 <Alberth> ie new features mostly
12:26:04 <Alberth> people never write then in the commit message for some reason :p
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12:27:15 <planetmaker> -Feature: Add some random bugs
12:28:04 <Weirdlittleeye> looks like the newest compiled YACD is for 1.3.0-beta2
12:28:07 <andythenorth> just check any commit by me :P
12:28:15 <andythenorth> random chance of bugs :P
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12:38:21 <Alberth> yeah, for some reason some patchers prefer to patch against stables instead of trunk, which to me makes no sense at all
12:48:13 <andythenorth> id range for vehicles is ~65k?
12:48:26 <andythenorth> and there's no restriction on articulated ids being <128 any more?
12:52:49 <planetmaker> there is a restriction on articulated IDs. But much bigger
12:55:50 <Weirdlittleeye> i had a bus going between two stations inside a small town, when i moved other of the stations further, i believe the income only increased in one direction travelled.. i wonder how it is supposed to go
12:56:30 <andythenorth> "For NML 0.2 and lower the vehicle ID of the articulated part must be in the range 0 .. 127."
12:56:42 <andythenorth> so for higher nml? o_O
12:57:58 <Alberth> doesn't nml handle ids for you?
12:58:15 <planetmaker> andythenorth, you haven't been handling NML 0.2 for... ages :D
12:58:29 <andythenorth> Alberth: I use explicit ids
12:58:36 <andythenorth> can't remember why, but I do
12:58:43 <andythenorth> possibly because the string ids might change
12:58:53 <andythenorth> there was some reason
12:59:16 <planetmaker> the reason is that you can then juggle around vehicles without set becoming incompatible with previous versions
12:59:46 <andythenorth> and it's not much work
13:04:15 <planetmaker> andythenorth, NML 0.3: 2**15 articulated IDs
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13:47:55 <Weirdlittleeye> YACD logic seems very nice for passengers, mail and valuables
13:48:18 <Weirdlittleeye> 'route-demand' driven
13:48:42 <Weirdlittleeye> for other types i think demand-driven (without route) would be nicer
13:49:35 <Weirdlittleeye> the first idea would be that the destinations each have an individual price they pay for the cargo
13:50:13 <Weirdlittleeye> so that distance-based value is only left for route-demand-driven cargo
13:50:25 <Weirdlittleeye> or perhaps time instead of distance, hmm
13:50:38 <Weirdlittleeye> as distance determines some of the time
13:52:17 <Weirdlittleeye> destinations would set their prices based on their point of view (distance to closest source? demand could have an effect)
13:52:44 <Weirdlittleeye> something like this would be my vision of making the economy fun
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13:56:27 <andythenorth> newgrf with 2 eras (steam, diesel)
13:56:41 <andythenorth> randomise the locos from a choice of say, 16? o_O
13:56:49 <andythenorth> (not even sure if it's possible)
13:56:59 <andythenorth> but every game would be different :P
13:57:04 <planetmaker> possible... possibly
14:03:53 <andythenorth> how would it be done?
14:04:11 <andythenorth> is there a random seed parameter, per game?
14:05:01 <planetmaker> yes. Not sure it's newgrf-accessible. But in principle either it, or a random number per newgrf could be added
14:05:14 <planetmaker> I think Eddi|zuHause had a patch for that :D
14:06:29 <andythenorth> I would group locos into things like 'general purpose', 'heavy freight' etc
14:06:42 <andythenorth> so that gameplay wasn't totally broken
14:06:47 <andythenorth> might allow it to break a bit :)
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14:16:27 <Weirdlittleeye> oops, the effect of distance is reverse, so never mind
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15:57:19 <Miauw> I can't buy electric trains for some reason.
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16:04:17 <andythenorth> can haz a random seed global to the newgrf?
16:04:31 <andythenorth> for randomising trains-per-game purposes
16:04:42 <andythenorth> (might want to save it in the savegame) :P
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16:06:08 <Supercheese> "Parameter 1: Please input a random number between 0 and XXXX" :P
16:10:57 * andythenorth has considered random-on-compile before...but that would be evil :P
16:21:39 <Miauw> Why did that train get stuck
16:23:00 <Miauw> Unelectrified piece of rail...
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16:41:18 <Miauw> I have triggered a bussapocalypse.
16:41:31 <Miauw> I made about 50 busses and released them all at once.
16:45:24 <frosch123> just also release a train
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18:22:54 <DorpsGek> DanMacK: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 2 hours, 11 minutes, and 56 seconds ago: * andythenorth has considered random-on-compile before...but that would be evil :P
18:54:32 <Alberth> V453000: nuts 0.5.5, monorail Brickwalker is advertised as running 211km/h, iron ore train does only 128km/h even when empty
18:54:50 <V453000> read the info again :)
18:55:01 <V453000> it is probably correct
18:56:20 <Alberth> hmm, 2 engines should then run faster
18:56:57 <V453000> but generally with chameleons using multiple engines is very convenient
18:57:09 <V453000> I as you only lose 14t capacity per each added
18:57:16 <V453000> and the power/TE is inscreasing a lot :)
18:57:37 <Alberth> but there is one less added unit :)
18:58:08 <Alberth> ok, will make shorter trains :)
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19:02:29 <Alberth> V453000: multiple engines do not seem very needed, they reach top-speed quite quickly
19:02:58 <V453000> I think it is worht multiplying even with 2 tile trains
19:03:55 <V453000> what length do you use
19:03:57 <Alberth> perhaps my tracks are not busy enough :)
19:04:08 <V453000> 128kmh is probably already slow enough to be just fine with the low power
19:04:22 <V453000> I personally used 5 tile trains many times and they were ~ok with 1 engine too
19:05:28 <V453000> it depends a lot on the general plan you have
19:05:39 <V453000> I often do rail strong -> chameleon -> slugs
19:05:51 <V453000> which obviously means you want 1 engine per trains since slugs
19:06:09 <Alberth> compared with the current strong engines it is a nice improvement, but I wanted more speed improvement than an additional 20km/h :)
19:06:14 <V453000> but if I plan to focus on chameleons, 2 engines cost you almost nothing and add a lot
19:06:49 <Alberth> oh, you plan that far ahead :)
19:06:54 <V453000> depends, if your network has problems at stations, chameleons can hurt as they have 7 loading stages
19:07:46 <V453000> sure, I almost always know in the start of the game which engines I will use ... which is essential to know for picking the right train length, network type, and amount of engines
19:08:32 <V453000> if I intend to use superstrong, I obviously wont bother with 2nd engine even if my trains are 10 tiles long
19:08:33 <Alberth> nah, long distance cargo-dist, with the main fun being the need to distribute stuff at the accepting end :)
19:09:03 <V453000> "cargodist" isnt defining a network, any train can be used with that specification :P
19:09:26 <V453000> but long-distance generally means monorail is best
19:09:31 <V453000> (monorail fast / intercity)
19:09:54 <V453000> - but you cannot have too many junctions that way, as both of them require long curves
19:10:04 <V453000> or well you can but .. :)
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19:26:43 <V453000> Alberth: flat much? :P
19:27:15 <Alberth> temperate is flat for me :)
19:28:04 <V453000> this isnt flat, this is FLAT :D
19:29:24 <V453000> either way, I think majority of your network would be okay with rail medium
19:29:51 <V453000> I wouldnt expect chameleons to have any strong performance with this setup
19:30:47 <V453000> chameleons are useful in 2 scenarios for cargo trains: 1. for short trains, absolutely best for 2 tile trains, or 2. longer trains - but when they can use the very short curve resulting from the speed reduction, and monorail bonus
19:31:14 <V453000> but then still, with the traffic you have, you can probably use anything
19:31:42 <V453000> ships could have considerable capacity but would spend ages loading
19:32:00 <Alberth> yeah, you can even run different length trains at the monorail without getting trains waiting on each other
19:33:29 <V453000> still, you should make a lot of rails everywhere and use slugs for the short curve + awesomeness :P
19:34:01 <V453000> on another note, I am thinking about redrawing the ship signals, they arent quite too nice
19:35:40 <Alberth> I have a hard time understanding front and back on those signals
19:36:10 <V453000> they didnt end up the most fortunate way :)
19:36:59 <V453000> slugs are 2016 for animal express, 2070 for the basic version and 2099 for the ultimate rainbow ones :P takes time
19:38:18 <Alberth> oh, that's ok, having lots of fun with current trains :)
19:39:49 <V453000> I think updating to 0.5.8 should be safe btw
19:40:34 <V453000> but most of the changes since 0.5.5 are regarding rainbow slugs, rest is rather minor
19:40:41 <V453000> so unless you intend to use those, no real reason to update
19:42:24 <Alberth> just like andy, you make too many new releases for me to keep up :)
19:43:16 <V453000> well, if it was all in one big release, it would be even harder to keep up :P
19:50:32 <V453000> anyway, good night :P
19:50:40 <V453000> PS there are FIVE more trains coming XD
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