IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-09-07
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07:38:31 <Alberth> pillow is literally providing the PIL interface? that's nice
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08:20:00 <peter1138> Bah, my crap but expensive bike light won't work right :(
08:20:53 <Xaroth|Work> Alberth: Pillow is a continuation of PIL
08:21:02 <peter1138> Maybe it doesn't like rechargables.
08:21:31 <peter1138> 2.4V vs 3V is quite a difference.
08:22:01 <Alberth> Xaroth|Work: yeah, I just didn't expect they don't deviate from the PIL interface
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11:38:51 <Rubidium> why can't news be brought objectively instead of sensationally?
11:40:04 <LordAro> bbc is usually ok though
11:41:08 <Rubidium> so in the Netherlands there is a high speed rail line on which two services (should) run
11:41:29 <Rubidium> the Thalys from Amsterdam to Paris and the Fyra (from Amsterdam to Breda or Brussels)
11:41:53 <Rubidium> now the Fyra service has been running for a few years, but with non-high speed trains
11:42:35 <Rubidium> high speed trains for the Fyra service were ordered and taken into service in December last year to be taken out of service in January this year
11:43:00 <Miauw> The goddamn drama that's been on the news over here in Belgium.
11:43:14 <Rubidium> news: "Fyra trains are not running anymore", except... the old non-high speed Fyra trains were taken back into service... so technically they are still running
11:43:37 <Miauw> Over here, nobody ever heard about Fyra until the high-speed trains.
11:43:43 <Miauw> It was called "The Fyra" here.
11:44:43 <Rubidium> today the news is: "Fyra trains are running again", except... it's those inherently unsafe V250 high speed trains... with only one train movement a week to prevent the trains from rusting solid without taking any passengers
11:44:56 <Rubidium> (and the old style Fyra trains are still running)
11:45:20 <Miauw> Didn't they catch fire while still anyway or something?
11:45:25 <Rubidium> having said that, the V250 trains for the Fyra service are, for current standards, nice death traps
11:46:04 <Miauw> And nobody liked their already generally late trains being discarded for this horrible thing they didn't even use...
11:51:01 <Rubidium> you know Fyra = 4 in Swedish? So, how were they expected to get a good grade for that project?
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12:09:42 <Eddi|zuHause> are those the ones where the bottom drops out?
12:10:18 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: danmack was last seen in #openttd 19 hours, 46 minutes, and 9 seconds ago: <DanMacK> Hey all
12:10:32 <andythenorth> "danmack won't you come back?"
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12:25:59 <planetmaker> andythenorth, so... should translations from eints also be pushed back into FIRS repository?
12:26:12 <andythenorth> do we trust it? o_O
12:26:36 <Eddi|zuHause> do you want to review it manually?
12:27:20 <planetmaker> also, Eddi|zuHause and andythenorth: it doesn't work on projects where the lang files are generated...
12:27:42 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: must be attached to the .in files
12:28:50 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: in CETS, the .in files are normal language files, they just need a different filename because the automatically generated strings have to be appended
12:29:24 <andythenorth> I could blat the generated stuff onto the end of the file manually during compile :P
12:31:11 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, as an idea... could the automatic generated stuff go into custom_tags.txt ?
12:31:34 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: how would that work?
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12:32:23 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: custom_tags can only replace the right side of a string definition?
12:32:53 <Eddi|zuHause> but i need all the engine names, and the axle schemes from the table
12:35:23 <andythenorth> global strings, untranslated?
12:35:30 <andythenorth> is that what custom_tags is?
12:35:46 <planetmaker> it's global commands
12:35:52 <Eddi|zuHause> the makefile uses custom_tags to insert the revision number
12:35:59 <planetmaker> which can just be to replace {COMMAND} with "my custom text"
12:36:25 <planetmaker> so, yes, basically a custom replacement thing
12:36:55 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i don't really see a sane way other than what i'm currently doing
12:37:41 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: altenatively you could use a different folder for generated fiels
12:38:07 <frosch123> or for the input (eints supports reading lang files from a custom folder, but not custom filenames)
12:38:24 <planetmaker> good idea, frosch123 !
12:39:08 <Eddi|zuHause> well, if you want to patch that into CETS, go ahead...
12:39:15 <Eddi|zuHause> should be trivial change
12:39:31 <Eddi|zuHause> in scripts/files.py or so
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13:46:17 <andythenorth> porting ship nml to train nml
13:46:27 <andythenorth> action 0 block is causing a lot of nml whining :P
13:47:30 <andythenorth> seems that trains can't be 400t :P
13:48:49 <Alberth> land would buckle under the load :)
13:51:02 <V453000> dont tell me you are really making ships on wetrails
13:51:41 <andythenorth> although due to a temporary lack of graphics, some versions will show ships on rails :P
13:53:13 <andythenorth> so which properties have to be defined to make a train appear?
13:53:16 <andythenorth> my trains aren't :P
13:53:50 <andythenorth> forgot 'make install'
13:54:13 <V453000> idontgetwhatareyoudoing
13:55:02 <andythenorth> newtrainsetwithdanmackallsecretnomoredetailsyet
13:55:52 <frosch123> V453000: he does a prequel to nuts. horses before they became educated
13:58:04 <andythenorth> I love templated newgrf frameworks :P
13:58:18 <andythenorth> 1hr work, all ships are now trains
14:02:13 <andythenorth> missing some props :(
14:05:09 <V453000> andythenorth: do you intend to use nuts wetrails, or? :)
14:05:35 <V453000> might want to try to align it with those in case :P
14:05:56 <andythenorth> V453000: it will be trains soon
14:06:04 <andythenorth> when my canadian conspirator sends sprites
14:07:05 <V453000> <- is drawing new shippies though :>
14:07:13 <oskari89> 30000 kph logic maglev train was even more intresting :D
14:07:29 <oskari89> Andythenorth: Make your largest ship go that speed :)
14:07:37 <oskari89> It would be amusing sight
14:21:14 <andythenorth> TE is 0 if cargo capacity not set? :P
14:24:39 <andythenorth> something else then
14:25:01 <V453000> what does TE have to do with cargo capacity? :D
14:25:21 <andythenorth> I have TE 0 for 2 trains, and it's set correctly for another 1
14:26:46 <V453000> but 0 is strange regardless
14:26:59 <planetmaker> 0 is default for unset
14:27:34 <andythenorth> docs imply 0.3 is default
14:27:56 <planetmaker> I think only for the default trains
14:28:08 <planetmaker> any unset property has a value of 0 as default, I'd think?
14:28:17 <planetmaker> got link to that piece of docs?
14:29:29 <Eddi|zuHause> in general, all but the original vehicle stats are 0 if not initalized
14:29:51 <andythenorth> works fine if explicitly set
14:30:04 <Eddi|zuHause> so always initialize stuff explicitly
14:30:34 <V453000> in what case would you not want to set TE of your trains :D
14:30:46 <Eddi|zuHause> in the lazy case :p
14:31:28 <andythenorth> in the case where you read the docs :P
14:31:48 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you read the docs wrong?
14:32:55 <planetmaker> yeah, but docs are at least mis-leading there
14:33:02 <andythenorth> "Default value is 0.3"
14:33:10 <andythenorth> pretty unambiguous description of the default value
14:34:17 <juzza1> maybe write "original trains use 0.3" is someone editing right now? i can
14:34:28 <planetmaker> andythenorth, I fixed wiki :-P
14:37:24 <planetmaker> for a value between 0 and 1? ;-)
14:39:15 <V453000> idk if it worked differently when I was starting to code vehicles, but I have 1-255 used everywhere instead of 0-1
14:40:21 <juzza1> in properties, range is 0..1, if set via callback, it's 0..255
14:40:32 <planetmaker> V453000, uh... and value nfo?
14:40:41 <planetmaker> and what juzza1 says
14:49:46 <Eddi|zuHause> callbacks not being able to use the same units as properties is one of the big weaknesses of nml
14:50:44 <Eddi|zuHause> but you need some stricter context for that to work
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15:40:15 <V453000> is it possible to create a fake newtree / stolen trees newGRF which bananas would recognize and download for broken savegames missing that file?
15:42:51 <planetmaker> you can hardly fake grfID, some meaningful content and still obtain the same md5sum
15:43:16 <planetmaker> which by those means would be rejected by bananas as "duplicate entry"
15:44:53 <Eddi|zuHause> you're better off just enablin developer tools and ignoring the grf
15:45:20 <V453000> many of our archived savegames arent loadable for people who do not have the newgrf from times before
15:45:43 <LordAro> i think there should be a newgrf flag which shows that it only affects graphics, not gameplay, and therefore is optional
15:45:45 <V453000> also would it make sense to overwrite "duplicate entry" as the exception of a deleted newGRF?
15:45:46 <Eddi|zuHause> is it not in the grf pack?
15:46:07 <Alberth> LordAro: how to decide that is the problem
15:46:08 <V453000> only test.grf version of stolen trees is in the grf pack, not newtrees and stolen trees
15:46:10 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: that doesn't work
15:46:49 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: as another grf can check for presence of the grf and suddenly it does matter
15:47:20 <LordAro> surely you can test to see if a newgrf touches only actions that replace graphics?
15:47:28 <Alberth> can we not drop that feature?
15:48:06 <V453000> honestly a save should always be openable, if everything breaks after loading, too bad
15:48:30 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: yes we can do that, but only if we have the grf
15:48:32 <V453000> (regarding missing newgrfs)
15:48:40 <Rubidium> V453000: that's what you have a hex editor for
15:49:03 <Rubidium> yes, to open the savegame
15:49:33 <V453000> anyway, if I wanted to stop people from having issues with missing newtrees/stolen trees, what options do I have?
15:49:45 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: that's what [newgrf-static] already does, just people don't know about it since there is no gui
15:50:25 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, what would help to mark certain newgrfs as static, but still, on server-join prod clients to load it or obtain it
15:50:46 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: load the savegame, remove grf, save again, publisch the modified savegame
15:50:56 <Rubidium> V453000: conquer the world, and by law require all NewGRFs to be freely redistributable
15:51:21 <V453000> Eddi|zuHause: would have to compile all the revisions to save in the old one again
15:51:43 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: you can download old releases
15:52:21 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: or you just take 1.0-ish and forget about older stuff
15:52:33 <Rubidium> if they're that old, you'll likely not be able to compile them either
15:53:20 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: why would you care about someone loding your archived games with a 0.6?
15:53:22 <Rubidium> e.g. 0.7 fails to compile with 4.8
15:54:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i had to fix two or three things while trying to compile stuff around r12xxx
15:54:40 <Eddi|zuHause> static cast, something about protected->public in yapf-rail and something else i forgot
15:55:13 <Eddi|zuHause> yes that's the static cast
15:55:52 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Commit by rubidium :: r18045 /trunk/src (4 files in 2 dirs) (2009-11-11 21:15:58 UTC)
15:55:53 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: -Fix: GCC 4.5@HEAD not compiling OpenTTD anymore because of a "non-placement deallocation function [is] selected for placement delete", or in other words delete(void *, size_t) is 'magic'.
15:55:54 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: We implemented these delete(void *, size_t) operator functions because MSVC warned that "no matching operator delete found; memory will not be freed if initialization throws an exception" for new(size_t, size_t).
15:55:55 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: This disables MSVC warning about this because we do not use exceptions in the (constructors that use the) overridden allocation functions, as such they will never be called; delete(void *) remains necessary though.
15:56:30 <V453000> what is the last revision loadable with 1.0.0?
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15:58:33 <Eddi|zuHause> 1.x is in 201x. easy to remember :=
16:00:10 <V453000> with all the features forums require?
16:03:41 <V453000> well I will consider saving the things as suggested :P
16:03:47 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. we must implement everything from the 2.0 thread by 2020 :p
16:04:05 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: you could keep the old files in the archive
16:04:15 <Eddi|zuHause> incase problems occur
16:04:28 <V453000> of course we would keep the files backed up somewhere
16:05:26 <frosch123> if you only consider the start of the 2.0 thread, we actually achieved that stuff iirc :p
16:05:26 <Alberth> nah, just release 1.10 :p
16:06:07 <Eddi|zuHause> we had that same discussion with 0.x :p
16:23:20 *** Miauw__ is now known as Miauw
16:23:54 <Miauw> I found a village on a really small island that literally just consists of 3 houses, 2 pieces of road and a bridge to the mainland
16:24:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i've had a town with 0 population (just a road, or a road with a church)
16:25:16 <Miauw> One of them was a church.
16:25:48 <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes they can't even build bridges to the mainland
16:27:26 <Eddi|zuHause> like in www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Loisachkirchen%20Transport,%2013.%20Apr%202027.png (12MB) the town of Bliesdorf was one like that
16:28:09 <Miauw> I'm playing on a map way too large for one person.
16:28:51 <Eddi|zuHause> it would probably be way too large for multiple persons anyway :)
16:29:24 <V453000> Eddi will you ever play another game to show? :D
16:29:47 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: i was about to revive one of my older games, but then i got distracted...
16:30:05 <Miauw> I'm playing on the second size.
16:30:14 <Eddi|zuHause> Miauw: in singleplayer you get away with the CPU not keeping up with the calculation, the game will just run a little slower. but in multiplayer it will kick you out
16:30:40 <Eddi|zuHause> so in multiplayer the game can't get too big
16:31:35 <Miauw> Besides, I've only actually DONE something on less than a quarter of this map
16:32:05 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i certainly played games like that as well :p
16:32:35 <Eddi|zuHause> the rather small map above was actually an exception, because i wanted a "quick" game which i could finish within like one month
16:33:41 <Eddi|zuHause> because this was a patched version with no savegame compatibility, and when those lay around for too long, you get annoyed because feature <X> is not in there yet, and you can't update
16:39:21 <Miauw> I just realized a rather disturbing thing
16:39:35 <Miauw> I had two airplanes going between two airports.
16:39:40 <Miauw> But they don't show up in the list anymore
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17:45:25 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25755 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2013-09-07 17:45:20 UTC)
17:45:26 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:27 <DorpsGek> greek - 1 changes by Evropi
17:45:28 <DorpsGek> hungarian - 4 changes by IPG
17:45:29 <DorpsGek> indonesian - 1 changes by Yoursnotmine
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19:03:33 <andythenorth> what should I set default_cargo_type to for train engines?
19:03:40 <andythenorth> I thought DEFAULT_CARGO_FIRST_REFITTABLE
19:03:47 <andythenorth> but that causes the vehicle to be hidden in purchase list
19:04:04 <andythenorth> vehicle is not refittable
19:04:24 <andythenorth> so what should I use for default_cargo_type in that case?
19:04:38 <planetmaker> passengers or coal
19:05:09 <planetmaker> but I actually do think that it's a wagon/engine-specific thing
19:05:51 <peter1138> What's a good library/data structure for a key/type/value triplet list in C?
19:07:35 <peter1138> (Yeah, I probably shouldn't be using C, but I am...)
19:08:31 <LordAro> nested lists, maps, some other std object?
19:13:10 <LordAro> ignore my amateur opinion :L
19:43:34 <andythenorth> should I care much about TE coefficient in a train set
19:43:41 <andythenorth> I spent a lot of time on it in RV sets :P
19:43:47 <andythenorth> can I just use 0.3 for trains? o_O
19:45:52 * andythenorth likes the sound of no argument
19:48:05 <Alberth> as for a first approach, would be fine I guess :)
19:48:30 <Alberth> no idea what NUTS does there, but for industry it seems to be nicely tuned
19:50:31 <V453000> NUTS uses values from 30 to 255
19:55:30 <andythenorth> where do trains get sound effect from (using nml)?
19:56:19 <planetmaker> there's a soundXXX thing
19:56:30 <planetmaker> the finnish guys know by heart
19:57:30 <andythenorth> seems to be a cb for trains
19:57:34 <andythenorth> all other types have a prop
19:58:10 <andythenorth> maybe I just read nfo spec :)
20:00:43 <alluke> planetmaker: could you give me the permissions repair code again please?
20:00:52 <andythenorth> "Defines which livery colour settings apply to the vehicle" o_o
20:01:30 * andythenorth thinks another docs updated? o_O
20:01:54 <andythenorth> nml and nfo spec are at odds
20:03:14 <planetmaker> what is a permissions repair code?
20:04:07 <planetmaker> sound(soundfile[, volume])
20:04:38 <andythenorth> different use case :) but thanks, useful
20:06:31 <alluke> the one you told me put into terminal
20:06:41 <V453000> Q: any way to flip rear vehicle of 2headed engine Without defining new spritesets?
20:06:50 <alluke> something and path to the app
20:06:53 <V453000> (make both 2headed units look the same way)
20:07:11 <planetmaker> chmod u+x path/to/file?
20:09:38 <andythenorth> I'll fix, unless this is an EAndythenorth scenario
20:11:58 <frosch123> peter1138: gnome lib (glib) has c++ datastructure for c
20:12:07 <frosch123> like lists, hashes etc
20:13:21 <peter1138> Yeah I could look at that.
20:13:33 <peter1138> Does it do the horrible GINT crap or is that gtk...
20:14:16 <peter1138> Ah no, that's glib. Damn.
20:14:35 <frosch123> andythenorth: no idea, i would expect that nml solves the property mess and does it differently
20:15:09 <andythenorth> nml just maps prop 19 to engine_class
20:15:13 <andythenorth> I think docs are wrong
20:16:20 <andythenorth> I've never coded trains before, so it's all a bit 'wtf' for me
20:16:23 <andythenorth> trains are bonkers
20:18:17 <frosch123> andythenorth: what would be wrong about docs?
20:18:23 <frosch123> that it does not mention the sound effect?
20:18:34 <andythenorth> says "Defines which livery colour settings apply to the vehicle"
20:18:40 <andythenorth> which is possibly true
20:18:47 <andythenorth> but at least not the whole story
20:18:53 <andythenorth> the prop *does* change sound effect
20:19:15 <frosch123> ... that's what i asked before
20:19:27 <frosch123> so, it changed livery and sound efffect?
20:19:34 <andythenorth> I was agreeing with you above
20:19:39 <andythenorth> English can be ambiguous
20:22:17 <andythenorth> let's see if it also sets visual effect...
20:23:00 <andythenorth> no magic, literal interpretation of prop 19
20:24:36 <alluke> no such file or directory
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21:04:43 * andythenorth -> bed bed bed bed bed bed
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