IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-08-30
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09:28:50 <NGC3982> That is one pretty train.
09:31:03 <Xaroth|Work> they scream "I GO FAST"
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11:41:49 <peter1138> سمَـَّوُوُحخ ̷̴̐خ ̷̴̐خ ̷̴̐خ امارت
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11:58:10 <MNIM> now the NSA is watching is.
11:58:44 <peter1138> Oh... you think they weren't anyway?
12:24:24 <MNIM> Well, we didn't have any suspected terrorists in the channel until now!
12:25:24 <planetmaker> that's what you think!
12:41:39 <TinoDidriksen> MNIM, that's not an NSA trigger - it's an OS X crash bug.
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15:08:43 <alluke> does anybody know what RZD means?
15:11:05 <Eddi|zuHause> it's the russian train company iirc
15:11:48 <Eddi|zuHause> in the middle of the day? :p
15:12:29 <alluke> which would be better way to mark russian wagons from others, (RZD) or (RUS) ?
15:20:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i long planned to rework the naming in CETS to include "company" name
15:30:57 <Eddi|zuHause> what always disturbs me is that the old "abbreviations" like "K.Bay.St.B." are way too long
15:31:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd rather put something short like "bay."
15:31:45 <Eddi|zuHause> or even leave out the prefix if only one company is chosen
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15:43:59 <SamanthaD> How do I set the directory to install when running "make install" in openttd?
15:44:35 <Pinkbeast> SamanthaD: It's probably an argument to "configure".
15:44:48 <SamanthaD> Pinkbeast: yeah, I figured that... I'm just not sure which one!
15:45:19 <Pinkbeast> Usually it's "--prefix=/usr/local" or whatever.
15:45:28 <planetmaker> ./configure --help might tell :-)
15:45:29 <SamanthaD> ah! yes! that looks right!
15:45:42 <SamanthaD> I had a brain freeze >.<
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17:01:51 <alluke> beer and 90s music (y)
17:06:28 <Eddi|zuHause> there was "music" in the 90s? i thought it was all "umz umz umz"
17:10:54 <Pinkbeast> There was some halfway decent trad goth, if you like trad
17:11:09 <SamanthaD> there was also stuff from the 80's!
17:11:44 <alluke> estonian beer is great
17:11:56 <Pinkbeast> We've still got stuff from the 80s :-)
17:12:26 <SamanthaD> the golden age of synth <3
17:13:10 * Pinkbeast goes to the 80s Night at Whitby twice a year which is about enough really
17:13:20 <alluke> listening a radio show that contains mostly 90s umz umz umz
17:14:44 * Pinkbeast breathed a sigh of relief when Oasis were no longer "the next Beatles" but "who?", speaking of the 90s. :-)
17:17:01 <SamanthaD> these last few months I've been restless
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17:17:21 <SamanthaD> apparently, 90's music has made the transition to "classic rock" and nobody told me
17:18:45 <Eddi|zuHause> people apply the term "classic" to "everything that is old" nowadays
17:20:24 * Pinkbeast is a classic, hooray!
17:23:59 <Alberth> Pinkbeast: you're as classic you feel yourself :)
17:25:49 <SamanthaD> also, since when was 90's old?!
17:26:19 * Pinkbeast is a bit older than 90s. Put it this way, when I utter the word "dubstep" it goes naturally with "That godawful ...... racket"
17:26:35 <Belugas> or rather... You were not born then? it's old
17:27:16 <Eddi|zuHause> the '90s were already old in the '00s
17:27:40 * Belugas thinks he is stuck in time
17:27:57 <Eddi|zuHause> and we have the '10s now
17:28:05 <planetmaker> all those younglings ;-)
17:28:22 <Alberth> Belugas: put on some Pink or Lady Gaga :p
17:28:23 <Pinkbeast> Which don't really have a name, and frankly "the noughties" was quite unsatisfactory too
17:28:28 <Eddi|zuHause> but i have nobody ever seen anyone use the phrases '00s or '10s
17:28:42 <SamanthaD> that's so weird... where'd the 10's go?!
17:29:01 <SamanthaD> I say "the turn of the century" and people look at me funny like I'm talking about the 1900's
17:29:28 <Belugas> Alberth, may i decline?
17:29:44 <Eddi|zuHause> that's because it's "the turn of the milennium"
17:30:25 * Belugas puts on some "post rock" stuff instead
17:39:53 <Bad_Brett> you'll have to help me. what's your favourite color scheme for a 4-4-0 steam locomotive and what which parts would you use for company color(s)?
17:40:28 <Belugas> Alberth : more in the line of "This will destroy you" and such (if i just can get my hands on the songs...)
17:40:28 <Pinkbeast> Bad_Brett: That employed on _City of Truro_, to a first approximation.
17:40:39 <Eddi|zuHause> 4-4-0 always sounds like a toy engine for me
17:41:21 <SamanthaD> They did tend to look a bit quaint...
17:41:57 <Pinkbeast> Uh, the GWR 4-4-0s don't look enormously different to their 4-6-0s
17:42:57 <Pinkbeast> ... much more like each other than, say, a 4-2-2 "spinner" is
17:43:05 <Bad_Brett> i'm thinking about the american version
17:43:20 <Pinkbeast> Bad_Brett: I'd still paint them in GWR green :-)
17:44:04 <Bad_Brett> yeah, but the question is... should they all be green, or should i use company colors for the green part?
17:44:38 <Bad_Brett> i'm seriously thinking about manipulating the palette... i don't like the idea of pink trains
17:45:08 <SamanthaD> what trainset are you working on, Brett?
17:45:13 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25749 trunk/src/lang/gaelic.txt (2013-08-30 17:45:09 UTC)
17:45:14 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:15 <DorpsGek> gaelic - 3 changes by GunChleoc
17:45:58 <SamanthaD> gotta love the boat loads of translations :3
17:46:04 <Pinkbeast> Bad_Brett: I would always use CC for the two most prominent blocks of colour.
17:46:32 <SamanthaD> but make it a GRF option! I like "realistic" liveries!
17:46:39 <Pinkbeast> Bad_Brett: You could do what UKRS2 did; have an option for... what she said
17:47:24 <Bad_Brett> how do you make it an option?
17:47:38 <Pinkbeast> But the default should probably be company colours; principle of least surprise. If people want pink locomotives, they should have pink locomotives.
17:47:59 <Pinkbeast> Bad_Brett: Dunno, sorry. Ask Pikka / look at how UKRS2 does it?
17:48:07 <Eddi|zuHause> by NewGRF parameter
17:48:22 <Pinkbeast> Bad_Brett: If someone else is coding the GRF, it would suffice to do a CC version and a "realistic livery" version.
17:49:10 <SamanthaD> Ah, and distribute two GRFs
17:49:28 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, you can change the "company colours" by giving new recolour palettes (16 for one-colour, 256 for two-colour)
17:49:37 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure about the colour names
17:49:43 <Pinkbeast> SamanthaD: No, no, I'm just saying, if someone else is coding it, if Brett's just doing the art, do that art and let the coder sort it out.
17:49:52 <Eddi|zuHause> that should be easy to implement, if it's not done yet
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17:50:33 <SamanthaD> I must be really weird... I actually like my pink trains
17:50:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i seriously doubt anyone would be interested in coding Bad_Brett's madness :p
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17:50:44 <SamanthaD> and it's not a "girl thing!"
17:51:07 <Pinkbeast> Nah, all the lasses I know like black like sensible people do. :-)
17:51:47 <Eddi|zuHause> you only know Goths, that is not a representative set of people :p
17:51:47 <Bad_Brett> i'm a bit confused now though... is there an in-game option to turn company colors on/off? because the file may exceed 500 mb, so i'd rather not release two versions
17:52:12 <SamanthaD> Nono! It's a parameter in the NewGRF
17:52:13 <planetmaker> Bad_Brett, have you ever played with newgrfs and looked at their parameters?
17:52:19 <Pinkbeast> Bad_Brett: Some individual GRFs have an option to do so.
17:52:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Bad_Brett: you can turn off the recolouring on a per-vehicle basis i think
17:52:46 <planetmaker> you configure it at map-creation time and then the newgrf uses either one or the other
17:52:49 <Pinkbeast> Not so! I also know geeks.
17:52:57 <Pinkbeast> ... the sets overlap considerably
17:53:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure there are goth geeks :p
17:53:15 <Bad_Brett> i have no idea that you could do this
17:53:20 <SamanthaD> OH WOE ARE BUGS! ;_;
17:54:13 <Bad_Brett> about the company colors, can i change them for a 32bpp set without messing up the standard palette?
17:55:07 <Pinkbeast> Eddi|zuHause: The point was driven home to me quite firmly when we went to the tram museum in Leipzig during the WGT and 2/3 of the visitors were filthy goths
17:55:47 <Eddi|zuHause> are there non-filthy goths?
17:56:40 <Pinkbeast> ... actually that's not true, the USA has straightedge punks (what the actual fuck) and some straightedge goths as well
17:57:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea what that even means
17:57:32 <SamanthaD> maybe the clean goths just can't stand to be around unwashed hackers ;)
17:58:02 <Bad_Brett> by the way... still a bit "jumpy", but i'm getting there. anyone wanna help me write the code for 90 degree turns? ;)
17:58:24 <Pinkbeast> "Straight edge is a subculture and subgenre of hardcore punk whose adherents refrain from using alcohol, tobacco, and other recreational drugs." sa Wikipedia and that's about it
17:58:39 <Pinkbeast> Also often vegetarian Christians etc etc
18:01:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i hope i explained the thought right that it's basically "only show every 2nd turning sprite"
18:03:31 <SamanthaD> 32bpp is so cool <3
18:03:50 <SamanthaD> I can't wait till it's nice and polished
18:04:02 <planetmaker> yeah... but people don't release such stuff... they polish for eternities ^ ;-)
18:04:25 * Pinkbeast actually rather likes the pixel art world of 8bpp
18:04:50 <Bad_Brett> a beta version is not that far off
18:05:29 <Eddi|zuHause> we still have no curved tracks :/
18:06:18 <Pinkbeast> It's hard to do, but sheer genius when done well - the way you can look at a Pikka locomotive and know what it is in that tiny area.
18:06:48 <SamanthaD> I was actually thinking a few months ago about how to implement a game that used tracks laid down as bezier curves
18:07:50 <Bad_Brett> i used to develop games for mobile phones, which made me grow tired of making 8bpp graphics
18:08:12 <Pinkbeast> Railroad Tycoon 3. Tracks are made of arbitrary curve segments.
18:08:35 <Eddi|zuHause> there was also TTT
18:08:38 <SamanthaD> yeah, like that. Only more freedom!
18:08:49 <Pinkbeast> It's more focussed on share dealing and company running than the mechanics of running trains, but it's quite diverting.
18:09:03 <Pinkbeast> And the price mechanic is very interesting.
18:09:07 <Bad_Brett> i look at this way... if there are some really nice vehicles with extra turning angles, someone will sooner or later find a solution for the curved tracks
18:11:19 <Pinkbeast> Goods travel by themselves over the map in a sort of liquid flow model (taking into account terrain, so rivers easy, mountains hard) which informs the price of each good at each spot
18:12:17 <Eddi|zuHause> we know the solution for curved tracks. there's just no implementation
18:12:22 <SamanthaD> so if the goods move themselves what's the trains for?
18:12:34 <SamanthaD> Eddi: What's the solution?
18:12:59 <Pinkbeast> Moving them faster.
18:12:59 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a lengthy thread at the forum
18:13:11 <SamanthaD> ah, I'll have to look it up
18:13:28 <Pinkbeast> RRT3 concentrates on the early days of the railway, so goods move by river and over assumed roads.
18:13:35 <Eddi|zuHause> it involves Bad_Brett and me, can't miss it :p
18:14:02 <Pinkbeast> This provides a neat game mechanic - it's expensive to drive a railway over a mountain, but the ingame goods flow model probably means that's still profitable
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18:15:00 <Pinkbeast> It also has a neat answer to the scale problem, the way that OTTD junctions look odd because in a sense the trains are 8km long
18:15:39 <Pinkbeast> ... when two trains meet, one stops and becomes ethereal while the other passes. Double track accomodates two at once. Effectively, passing places etc are simulated.
18:16:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i tried RRT2 once, but immediately stopped because it didn't have "dispatcher operation" that RRT had
18:16:57 <Pinkbeast> Eddi|zuHause: RRT3 has no signalling model at all beyond that interpenetration.
18:16:59 <Eddi|zuHause> and i stopped RRT because you run out of allowed stations half way through
18:17:00 <Bad_Brett> yeah... RRT2 was beuatiful when it came, but sadly it soon became clear that it wasn't as good as the original
18:17:49 <SamanthaD> I just want a game that lets me play with trains >.>
18:18:36 * Pinkbeast is slightly hoping for good stuff from OpenRails
18:19:01 <SamanthaD> PinkBeast: Have you looked at OpenBVT?
18:19:22 <Pinkbeast> RRT3 is not so much about playing with trains as being a tycoon - the train control is hopelessly primitive.
18:19:36 <Bad_Brett> i always thought that RR2 and even RRT3 where, in my opinion, worse than the original game because Sid Meier wasn't involved... until Firaxis released Railroads!, one of the worst games i've ever played
18:20:20 <Pinkbeast> Yeah. OpenBVT is very good in some ways - I'm told by my friends who work on the Tube that in the 3D cabs, going over the points in a Tube train is _just right_
18:20:39 <Pinkbeast> ... but really I want a steam driving model like Railworks tries to have but keeps falling short
18:23:06 <SamanthaD> OpenBVE needs an overhaul though...
18:23:26 <peter1138> And it's a tad simplistic.
18:23:42 <SamanthaD> ... and it's a pain to get a trainset that actually runs right
18:24:03 <peter1138> Wonder how Train Simulator 2013 compares...
18:27:11 <Pinkbeast> TS2013 looks _lovely_. Gorgeous. Complete resource hog. Steam model worse than TS2012. :-(
18:28:49 <SamanthaD> how do you regress the steam model?!
18:28:57 <SamanthaD> maybe to sell more games?
18:29:07 <SamanthaD> too many people blowing up their locomotives :3
18:29:20 <Pinkbeast> I honestly don't know - there was already an option for "simple controls" and "auto fireman".
18:29:43 <Pinkbeast> But you used to be able to open the firebox door and then control the shovelling rate. Now it's open (shovelling full rate) or closed.
18:30:25 <SamanthaD> why would you shovel half-rate?
18:30:25 <Pinkbeast> And you used to have independent control of the injectors (although the model was always 1 exhaust, 1 live) and the water flow rate. Now it's a toggle for live full on, live full off.
18:30:33 <SamanthaD> doesn't that make the cab uncomfortable and waste energy?
18:30:48 <Pinkbeast> If the locomotive's not working hard but you need a good flow of secondary air, why not?
18:31:11 <Pinkbeast> And one of the blower or damper controls vanished as well.
18:31:48 <Pinkbeast> I mean, even when the firebox doors are open, the fireman is rarely shovelling "full rate".
18:31:57 <peter1138> OpenBVE doesn't do steam engines, does it?
18:32:21 <SamanthaD> that OpenRails looks good... maybe we can have a FOSS game where we can have all the simulation we can handle!
18:32:22 <Pinkbeast> I remember Chapelon had a favoured fireman who'd been on torpedo boats during the War and could shovel 4 tons an hour or something stupid like that.
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18:32:37 <SamanthaD> I have high hopes because I've noticed that there are two types of hackers:
18:32:44 <SamanthaD> 1) hackers who own model trains
18:32:47 <Pinkbeast> But... simulation, not micromanagement. I don't want one of the Trainzes "press Spacebar to shovel"
18:32:50 <SamanthaD> 2) hackers who wish they owned model trains
18:33:06 <Alberth> SamanthaD: hmm, I am not a hacker then :p
18:33:21 <Pinkbeast> peter1138: Not last I checked (it had no steam model at all, where OpenRails has a stub)
18:33:26 <SamanthaD> Alberth doesn't have toy trains?! O.O
18:33:49 <Alberth> no, unless openttd counts :p
18:34:19 * Belugas is kinda 1), thogh... lego train. does it count?
18:34:26 <SamanthaD> Lego train totally counts
18:34:30 <peter1138> I have some 30 year old stuff that doesn't work...
18:34:35 <SamanthaD> in fact, that's the geekiest trainset of them all ;)
18:35:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i'd enjoy actually driving a train
18:35:39 <Eddi|zuHause> (simulated or real)
18:35:49 <SamanthaD> I want to get a set of Z-scale trains and a whole truckload of tracks and then lay a trunk line all along my hallway and livingroom floor and into the kitchen and then I could finally have a trainset with a realistic scale to the landscape!
18:35:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm usually more interested in organizing and watching
18:36:32 <Eddi|zuHause> but likewise i'm not enjoying the whole economy/stockmarket aspect of RRT
18:36:40 <Pinkbeast> Eddi|zuHause: IRL post-steam train driving I gather is either boredom or watching someone die horribly
18:37:11 <Pinkbeast> ... but I think even properly simulationist games can simulate the more interesting days in such a driver's career.
18:37:27 * Pinkbeast has a small Lego set but nothing else
18:37:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: you didn't really read the text, did you? :p
18:37:52 <Supercheese> Well, as the OTTD saying goes, realism? Bah.
18:38:36 <Bad_Brett> hmm... what about this one and use the blue part as CC?
18:39:15 <Pinkbeast> Bad_Brett: I think it is stretching it to have the boiler not be the first CC
18:39:25 <SamanthaD> I want to drill holes in the walls and run trains from room to room so I can pretend to run a passenger service for miniature people who live in my walls but certain killjoys won't let me >.>
18:39:32 <Eddi|zuHause> did i mention toy engines yet? :p
18:40:17 <SamanthaD> holy... that's a purdy locomotive!
18:40:46 <SamanthaD> it's also very... loud?
18:41:39 <Eddi|zuHause> what i find interesting is that american engines tend to have 2-axle bogies whereas european engines usually have a single guiding axle (until very late in the development)
18:43:06 <Pinkbeast> Eddi|zuHause: Worse track in the US led to pony truck, I think
18:43:14 <Eddi|zuHause> Bad_Brett: in general, the first company colour must be blue and the second green, but if you want a "fixed colour" option, you can give a recolour sprite with any colour
18:43:30 <SamanthaD> I think it's more of a trade off. My understanding is that the two axle front bogie provides more stability but it removes more weight from the driving wheels...
18:43:43 <SamanthaD> oh yeah... and the whole "US has terrible track" thing <.<
18:44:02 <Pinkbeast> SamanthaD: And it's bigger, heavier - absent the desire to go around corners you'd never fit anything but driving wheels
18:44:10 <Bad_Brett> Eddi: Yeah, I know... i meant the blue part on the picture i posted ;)
18:44:52 <Pinkbeast> But the Stirling Singles here are from 1870 and they're 4-2-2s
18:45:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Bad_Brett: could do, also the red part of the cab and the tender could be 2nd colour. the boiler staying a fixed colour
18:45:41 <Eddi|zuHause> and the wheels fixed as well
18:45:43 <Pinkbeast> ... and _magnificent_
18:45:46 <SamanthaD> best of both words!
18:46:00 <SamanthaD> also... that looks like it's obscene amounts of fun...
18:46:31 <Pinkbeast> I fear the Shays are not perhaps by British standards the most aesthetically pleasing, but isn't that an 0-2-2-0?
18:46:52 <SamanthaD> 100% driving wheels!
18:47:16 <SamanthaD> and some of them even powered the trucks on their tenders
18:47:19 <Supercheese> Gotta love geared locomotives
18:47:19 * Pinkbeast was quite amused in one of the German railway museums to see a Pacific praised for its "clean lines" where it was totally covered in bits and bobs like a 9F. :-)
18:47:38 <SamanthaD> I love bits and bobs on locomotives!
18:47:45 <SamanthaD> maybe it's a cultural thing...
18:47:50 <Supercheese> Loads of logging railways used Shays, Climaxes and the like around these parts
18:48:15 <Eddi|zuHause> Pinkbeast: german locomotives tend to have a lot of "clutter" on the outside
18:48:31 <Pinkbeast> Eddi|zuHause: Well, your loading gauge is sensible, you could do that. :-(
18:48:52 <Pinkbeast> But it was specifically the mention of clean lines on a locomotive with a bunch of crap on the outside... :-)
18:49:14 <Pinkbeast> SamanthaD: Oh, yes - the early tradition here is all inside cylinders, even
18:49:38 <SamanthaD> Honestly, I find British steam locomotives a tad bit silly looking
18:50:19 <SamanthaD> though... I really like British diesel and electric
18:51:29 <SamanthaD> I take back what I said about british trains looking silly. That's beautiful
18:51:35 <SamanthaD> but still... needs more bobbles!
18:51:40 <Pinkbeast> Eddi|zuHause: All those tentacles atop the smoke deflectors are quite odd
18:52:15 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure what you mean
18:53:18 <Pinkbeast> Eddi|zuHause: We're not used to "German-style" smoke deflectors (aside that they were fitted to the A3s) and there are weird pipes peering over the top.
18:53:24 <SamanthaD> You just can't beat this: http://www.train.camuxi.com/DonneesFichier,table,articles,champ,image,cle,no_article,valeur,130,titre,union-pacific-n%E0%B8%A23977-4-6-6-4-challenger.jpg
18:53:50 <planetmaker> you mean... the weiredness of the filename?
18:54:01 <Pinkbeast> Well, there's nothing stuck to the boiler on that
18:54:15 <SamanthaD> it's more stuck under the boiler :p
18:54:31 <SamanthaD> and there is... it's just that that locomotive is HUGE so it looks small and less obtrusive
18:55:16 <Pinkbeast> ... although if anyone finds the Q1s aesthetically appealing, I don't know who they are.
18:55:31 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 23 weeks, 1 day, 10 hours, 12 minutes, and 43 seconds ago: <Pikka> I do not want to watch a half-hour video for the one little piece of information I need and which probably isn't in there anyway
18:56:02 <SamanthaD> Pinkbeast: That thing looks like it's half-assembled...
18:57:07 <SamanthaD> Union Pacific 3985 <3
18:57:16 <SamanthaD> the sister locomotive to 3977
18:57:33 <SamanthaD> only it doesn't have the smoke deflectors on it and it's painted differently
18:57:50 <Pinkbeast> The Q1s are Bulleid's good design from the War - they're built to minimise use of steel. Apparently the footplate crews found the sight of coupling rods whacking back and forth just under their noses disturbing.
18:58:56 <Pinkbeast> Doesn't one of the Challengers still run?
18:59:15 <SamanthaD> 3985 runs, 3977 is a museum piece
18:59:21 <Pinkbeast> And I read UP just bought a Big Boy to restore it to running order
18:59:24 <SamanthaD> but my understanding is it's in operative condition either way
18:59:45 <SamanthaD> I want to ride the challenger someday!
19:00:52 * Pinkbeast has been in the cabs of all the surviving A4s and put his sticky fingers on the regulators :-)
19:01:22 <Pinkbeast> ... only ridden behind Sir Nigel Gresley, but I did get to flag him down and not many people can say that :-)
19:02:01 <Pinkbeast> Not so much; there's a request stop on the North Yorkshire Moors Railway, his home railway.
19:02:25 <SamanthaD> I kinda want to ride in the cab of an ALCO RS-1
19:02:34 <SamanthaD> for some reason I really like that locomotive
19:03:01 * Pinkbeast drove the National Railway Museum's replica _Rocket_ once.
19:03:09 <Pinkbeast> ... ahem, for 100 yards, under supervision. :-)
19:03:18 <SamanthaD> just what do you DO that lets you play with trains so much?!
19:04:05 <Pinkbeast> I don't; but I go to Whitby twice a year, which means NYMR and the National Railway Museum at York.
19:04:27 <SamanthaD> hmm... I should go to Sacramento
19:04:33 <Pinkbeast> And even inasmuch as I never travel by car, there are plenty of preserved railways inside a daytrip of me.
19:04:58 <SamanthaD> we have a bunch of preserved railways near me, too...
19:05:03 <SamanthaD> they're called "Amtrak" ;)
19:06:54 <Pinkbeast> We do wonder sometimes why you generally chug around at 50mph on rail, given the highlights of American steam in the 30s
19:07:10 <Pinkbeast> ... oh, that reminds me, I do hope the Project 130 chaps sort it out
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19:07:51 <SamanthaD> oooh... that's neat!
19:08:10 <SamanthaD> know what's disgraceful?
19:08:22 <Pinkbeast> Well, it would nicely settle the question as to whether Mallard or the Deutsche Reichsbahn were fastest. :-)
19:08:29 <Pinkbeast> Dr Beeching! Er, what else?
19:08:30 <SamanthaD> It's actually faster to go from San Jose to Los Angeles by bus than by train >.>
19:10:23 * Pinkbeast thinks the world ended in 1968 but I admit to a soft spot for the Class 91s, the 140mph British electrics. America could use some of those.
19:11:19 <SamanthaD> yeah... but America's problem isn't so much the locomotives it's the track
19:11:41 <Pinkbeast> Isn't it more slow freight on the same tracks?
19:12:03 <SamanthaD> but mostly it's the fact that the track is of very poor quality in many parts
19:12:22 <SamanthaD> in fact... you know the California high speed rail project?
19:12:26 <peter1138> Do you still build wooden bridges?
19:12:38 <SamanthaD> yeah... it's going to haul Southern Pacific freight along certain stretches ;)
19:13:03 <SamanthaD> I don't think so, but the last time I was on the train I damn near thought it was going to derail at one point >.<
19:13:54 <SamanthaD> can you imagine Japan tolerating a slow freight train on the Shinkansen?!
19:15:43 <Pinkbeast> Well, even here freight is 90mph
19:16:55 <SamanthaD> Here it can be a lot slower
19:17:19 <Pinkbeast> peter1138: Well, yes, that's a separate issue and when I'm Dictator for Life it will change. :-(
19:17:28 <SamanthaD> or if it's a really long train you can walk faster :p
19:17:45 <SamanthaD> wait... rubber tires?!
19:17:54 <SamanthaD> why are you pulling mainline freight with rubber tires?!
19:18:20 <Pinkbeast> The road transport lobby very effectively won here, and most freight is in lorries.
19:18:55 <Rubidium> SamanthaD: I can't imagine much cargo on the Shinkansen network. Mainly because it's not really a network, but basically a few point-to-point connections without (good) interconnections
19:19:07 <Rubidium> furthermore, it has a different gauge than the rest of Japan
19:19:23 <Pinkbeast> Hence, Dr Beeching - Marples, the Tory transport secretary, closed lines while owning vast chunks of road transport firms and the construction company that built the motorways.
19:20:34 * Pinkbeast was in Switzerland a few years back, which is how it should be; every town has a station, and mixed goods goes through in the evening. Straight from steam to electric.
19:22:16 <Pinkbeast> Marples was monstrously corrupt and changed the railways in Britain forever. Couldn't have done it without that "car is king" ambience, but still...
19:22:36 <scshunt> we have railways for long haul, but most stuff is in trucks
19:22:43 <scshunt> this is very much an infrastructure thing
19:23:17 <scshunt> most freight lines are low grade track, and the freight companies have little incentive to improve
19:23:33 <scshunt> especially since laying track in areas like the mountains is not easy at all
19:24:06 <SamanthaD> mmhm... it's like in the US
19:24:14 <SamanthaD> track doesn't get built unless the government pays for it
19:24:32 <Pinkbeast> And presumably the government lays roads for free, road transport wins, and this is "competition".
19:24:54 <scshunt> except nobody sees the need for competition
19:25:05 <scshunt> it doesn't help that you have two separate levels of government
19:25:20 <scshunt> provincial governments cover roads, but the federal government has exclusive jurisdiction over railways
19:26:04 <Pinkbeast> Oh, and also, the railways have strict safety, the roads are carnage nightly, but then they have to compete on costs? Grumble.
19:27:27 <SamanthaD> You know what gets me? People complaining about diesel electric trains polluting too much
19:27:41 <SamanthaD> yeah... they pollute some
19:27:52 <SamanthaD> but look at how many trucks/cars/buses they're displacing!
19:28:18 <Pinkbeast> Quite. I'd rather have electrics, especially if they are powered (as ours are) by French persons smashing atoms, but they're so much better than private motors
19:28:57 <SamanthaD> I guarantee you, the dirtiest ALCO is 1000 times cleaner than the cleanest Peterbilt
19:29:22 <SamanthaD> hell... maybe even an old coal-fired steam engine
19:30:03 * Pinkbeast has a soft spot for the Class 43s even if they are diseasels
19:30:37 <SamanthaD> there's room for diesels even on 100% electrified lines
19:30:46 <SamanthaD> service locomotives, for example ;)
19:31:17 <Pinkbeast> The Class 43s weren't built for that, though. They were built for 125mph pax service.
19:31:37 <SamanthaD> didn't they only serve for a handful of years?!
19:31:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i've long lost the thread of this discussion
19:32:10 <Pinkbeast> No, no, many more years than was expected. Still in service now.
19:33:22 <Pinkbeast> Not bad for a locomotive as old as I am (at least post-steam where some racked up a century in service)
19:33:26 <SamanthaD> but now they haul non-pax, right?
19:34:03 <SamanthaD> I thought the Royal Mail stopped using trains...
19:34:17 <Pinkbeast> Right now, you could go to Paddington and get a Class 43 to Cornwall. It's being electrified now.
19:34:29 <Pinkbeast> Er, I mean "passengers" by pax
19:34:56 <SamanthaD> I was thinking only the X part of PAX :p
19:35:49 <Pinkbeast> No, no. I like them, although they are fucking loud up close.
19:37:28 <Pinkbeast> But the Class 91s are better. :-)
19:37:30 <peter1138> Yeah but, who doesn't love big noisy engines?
19:37:55 <Pinkbeast> I like big noisy steam engines. Yes, Luddite.
19:39:03 * Pinkbeast says to self, go, and he goeth. I must take the tandem to the station.
19:43:55 <SamanthaD> You know what I don't understand?
19:44:13 <SamanthaD> Why the Europeans don't seem to like the hood unit
19:44:52 <Pinkbeast> Not yet gone. Smaller loading gauges.
19:45:10 <Pinkbeast> Hence, to fit a sufficiently powerful locomotive in the loading gauge...
19:45:31 <SamanthaD> oh, I see... they need the prime mover to take 100% of the width of the locomotive
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19:47:16 <Pinkbeast> And a better use of space may be to have a cab at each end, as we do.
19:49:22 <SamanthaD> you can also run them just as well in either direction
19:50:18 *** scshunt was kicked by DorpsGek (Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.)
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19:52:33 <Eddi|zuHause> "The last time the House of Commons refused a war effort against the wishes of the prime minister was in 1782 in the war against the american rebels"
19:53:09 <Rubidium> I thought the last time was in 2013
19:53:18 <scshunt> Eddi|zuHause: There's a very interesting proposition being put forth by a Canadian political scientist that this vote signals a move away from responsible government in the UK
19:53:42 <scshunt> esp. if Cameron remains in office or is not, at least, subjected to a confidence vote
19:53:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: it was meant as "the previous time"
19:54:32 <SamanthaD> why should it be bad? the parliament voted and Cameron seems to be heeding their wishes?
19:56:33 <scshunt> SamanthaD: who are you referring to?
19:56:41 <Eddi|zuHause> didn't the parliament say something like "we vote again when there is a UN mandate"?
19:57:28 <SamanthaD> scshunt: David Cameron. British PM
19:57:49 <scshunt> SamanthaD: err, I mean, who were you addressing? why should what be bad?
19:58:21 <SamanthaD> scshunt: Oh, I'm asking why it would be a move away from responsible government when Cameron is doing what he's supposed to do by backing off.
19:58:58 <SamanthaD> I wish our president would ask Congress before lobbing bombs <.<
19:59:20 <scshunt> Because the foundational principle of responsible government is that the executive make all the major policy decisions, and Parliament serves as a check on the executive by means of the confidence convention, and by vetting legislation
19:59:45 <scshunt> unlike in the American system, where the President's job is only to implement Congress' wishes
20:00:21 <scshunt> Cameron lost a major vote on a policy issue
20:00:30 <scshunt> His vision for Britain on the world stage was just destroyed
20:01:02 <scshunt> This is, at the very least, an indication that the House may not have confidence in his government
20:01:22 <scshunt> but it's likely that Cameron will not resign, and that Labour will not try to bring a motion of no confidence to a vote
20:01:24 <SamanthaD> so what you're saying is that even though he's doing what he's supposed to be doing because his policy is clearly different from the house he should step down now
20:01:44 <peter1138> I jumped from "move away from responsible government" to "irresponsible government" and... well... :p
20:02:12 <scshunt> SamanthaD: sort of. I think that the House should at least be asked if they're all right with him continuing
20:02:47 <SamanthaD> when a president here gets impeached it's a *BIG THING*
20:02:57 <SamanthaD> almost never happens...
20:03:18 <SamanthaD> and when it does happen it takes the better part of three years so why even bother?! >.<
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20:04:11 <scshunt> Impeachment is more of a criminal process
20:04:28 <SamanthaD> yeah, but it's our only way of recalling a president
20:04:57 <andythenorth> so I have some stuff to add to CHIPS
20:05:14 <andythenorth> but it's not supported by current codebase
20:05:30 <SamanthaD> what needs to change?
20:05:41 <andythenorth> I never bothered to learn the station spec
20:06:33 <andythenorth> I have crane tiles with 4 orientations
20:06:36 <andythenorth> station spec offers 2
20:06:40 <SamanthaD> whoever commits the patch to SVN *has* to comment it "'n dip"
20:07:05 <andythenorth> or maybe station spec offers more, but build gui offers 2
20:07:23 <andythenorth> anyway, I cba to figure out
20:07:36 <andythenorth> maybe peter1138 will get interested in it
20:07:50 <scshunt> SamanthaD: But anyway, the argument is that the assertion of more powers by Parliament, combined with the increasingly common convention that the PM stays in office until the next election, is leading away from the old model and to a model more similar to the US one
20:08:06 <andythenorth> we're talking about the thing that twitter should be talking about but isn't
20:08:24 <scshunt> andythenorth: I don't know who you're following, but my feed is full of it
20:08:26 <SamanthaD> scshunt: run away, run away!
20:08:31 <scshunt> that and the Supreme Court reference on the Senate
20:08:35 <peter1138> Why would you need 4 orientations, there's only X and Y directions.
20:09:28 <Eddi|zuHause> <SamanthaD> when a president here gets impeached it's a *BIG THING* <-- *mumbles something about big things in mouths*
20:10:01 <andythenorth> could be 2 tiles, but meh, fills the buy menu
20:10:14 <andythenorth> needs to alternate on build, or be random or something
20:10:26 <andythenorth> or just pick 2 :P
20:10:28 <peter1138> Just put it in twice.
20:10:28 <Eddi|zuHause> well that is the only reference point for impeachment processes that i have seen...
20:10:44 <peter1138> There's no way in the UI to pick anything other than the 2 directions...
20:12:21 <SamanthaD> I don't get it... are the orientations for the crane the direction of the actual crane x direction of the tracks?!
20:13:43 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, there have been votes of no confidence in germany as well. after they had bad effects with those in the 1920's and early 1930's, where you could vote out individual ministers, they removed that from the parliamental process, and allowed only "constructive" votes of no confidence, meaning there will be a choice between "keep old chancellor" or "appoint <X> as new chancellor"
20:14:29 <andythenorth> peter1138: I'll just pick 2 orientations and ignore the other 2
20:15:14 <scshunt> Eddi|zuHause: Yeah. Although the British system still theoretically has the ability to censure an individual minister and force their resignation, to the best of my knowledge that hasn't been done in decades
20:15:22 <scshunt> and hell, they haven't impeached anyone in 150 years!
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20:15:29 <scshunt> (by the British meaning of impeach, not the American one)
20:15:50 <SamanthaD> Well... I was going to suggest making them two different tiles int he interface. One with N/S tracks and the other with E/W tracks and then the orientation referring to the crane itself?
20:16:15 <Eddi|zuHause> scshunt: well the 1920's in germany were rather chaotic, after dissolving the monarchy and the lost war
20:17:23 <scshunt> Eddi|zuHause: can the Bundestag also call an early election?
20:17:32 <Eddi|zuHause> it can dissolve itself
20:17:48 <Eddi|zuHause> this has also happened
20:18:23 <Eddi|zuHause> but the chancellor/government will stay in place until a new one is appointed in that case
20:18:25 <scshunt> so bascially they've codified the Westminster conventions
20:18:45 <scshunt> (I also like the German model of federalism and the Bundesrat)
20:18:50 <Eddi|zuHause> which will be done in the first session after the election
20:18:52 <scshunt> but it's very different from, say, Canada
20:19:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i have honestly no clue about the political organisation of canada
20:19:33 <SamanthaD> Eddi: Well... you have the French and you have the English...
20:19:44 <scshunt> It's a federal state with separation of powers between the federal government and provincial government
20:19:45 <Eddi|zuHause> except that there are provinces where people live and territories where no people live
20:20:14 <scshunt> similar to the US model, except that Canada doesn't have a super-broad "interstate commerce" power which can be used to regulate everything under the sun
20:20:30 <scshunt> so Parliament actually can't butt into most provincial things effectively
20:21:51 <Eddi|zuHause> well the german federalism more or less clearly states which matters the Bundestag can interfere and in which matters it can't
20:22:20 <SamanthaD> ah yes... "interstate commerce"
20:22:52 <scshunt> right, but the German model also sees the lander responsible for much more of implementation of federal policy
20:22:55 <Eddi|zuHause> it for example says it can't interfere in education and culture
20:23:06 <scshunt> and so it has the Bundesrat
20:23:32 <Eddi|zuHause> so university regulations or TV licenses cannot be issued by the federal government
20:24:43 <Eddi|zuHause> which means there's this "Kultusministerkonferenz" where the Länder discuss with each other whether they want to combine efforts in those areas, or everyone does their own thing
20:25:05 <scshunt> that at least is similar to Quebec
20:26:12 <Eddi|zuHause> for example there was recently discussion about the "Glücksspielstaatsvertrag" ((inter-)state treaty about gambling), where they wanted to reform it wrt online sport bets etc
20:26:32 <Eddi|zuHause> and they couldn't get to an agreement, so Schleswig-Holstein left the treaty and made their own thing
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20:27:24 <scshunt> The German federal government has a lot more authority than Canada's does, wow
20:28:04 <Eddi|zuHause> german federal government controls everything about traffic
20:28:13 <Eddi|zuHause> like where railway lines are built
20:30:07 <Bad_Brett> what the hell is that?
20:30:09 <SamanthaD> what exactly does "clag" mean?!
20:30:09 <Eddi|zuHause> it wanted to be a steam engine
20:30:44 <SamanthaD> I don't think so... I think it might be misfiring though...
20:30:48 <peter1138> Just a dirty diesel.
20:30:51 <SamanthaD> it's making a chugging noise which... it shouldn't
20:31:35 <Bad_Brett> yeah, something must be wrong
20:31:35 <SamanthaD> or... it could be really cold
20:32:40 <Bad_Brett> we definitely need new a smoke generation algortihm so re-create that in openttd
20:33:30 <SamanthaD> peter1138: show not tell, eh?
20:35:09 <SamanthaD> now I know what clag is
20:35:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm still not entirely sure
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20:36:58 <peter1138> Yeah, diesels, not good for the environment really.
20:44:35 <SamanthaD> there's a reason why they just leave them idle 'round these parts...
20:47:14 <Bad_Brett> i wonder why it takes like 2-3 minutes for my OpenTTD to run... it's like the game scans every file in the entire data folder every time
20:47:42 <LordAro> Bad_Brett: it does ;)
20:47:51 <Bad_Brett> well that explains it
20:47:59 <Bad_Brett> because i use it as my project folder
20:48:10 <LordAro> probably shouldn't do that :p
20:48:27 <Bad_Brett> i was convinced that it would only check for grf files
20:49:35 <Eddi|zuHause> it still has to open every subfolder
20:49:57 <Rubidium> and read all tar archives
20:50:32 <Eddi|zuHause> there have been people with a "C:\DATA" directory of several GB in size
20:50:41 <Eddi|zuHause> after which that was blacklisted
20:51:10 <Eddi|zuHause> (the directory would be scanned if "C:\" was the working directory)
20:51:51 <Eddi|zuHause> i generally keep my development projects outside, only symlink the resulting file
20:52:25 <Eddi|zuHause> which allows automatically upgrading the file without copying, but openttd crashes if i unpause without reload_newgrfs
20:53:20 <Bad_Brett> yeah, i'm gonna do that as well now, because this is unbearable
20:54:54 <Bad_Brett> i'm playing with NARS2 now to get inspiration for the CC's... the description on the caboose says "A caboose is required by freight trains"
20:55:05 <Bad_Brett> is this only eye-candy or does it actually do anything?
20:55:21 <SamanthaD> yeah, it does things
20:55:28 <SamanthaD> as it says, it's required for freight trains ;)
20:55:46 <SamanthaD> there's a check. No caboose, no go
20:57:57 <Bad_Brett> what do you mean? it seems that i tranport cargo without it
20:58:39 <planetmaker> readme for the win ;-)
20:59:20 <Wolf01> me too, but I'm single and older :D
20:59:30 <SamanthaD> Instruction manual?! Peh... everyone knows space shuttles are self-documenting!
20:59:57 <Bad_Brett> i'm older as well... 27 ;-)
21:02:31 <Bad_Brett> my gf got me this one last year:
21:03:23 <Eddi|zuHause> yay shortened toy wagons... looks just like in openttd
21:05:25 <Eddi|zuHause> really that's one of the most annoying features of openttd. so annoying that i started my own grf set :)
21:06:12 <SamanthaD> Eddi: Don't tell me you're the XUSSR guy?
21:11:31 <SamanthaD> anyway... I need a nap
21:11:38 <SamanthaD> catch you guys later!
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21:38:31 <Eddi|zuHause> no, the xUSSR guy is George...
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