IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-06-05
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07:55:32 <SineTheCreator> i guess it's not possible to auto-replace cars that must be refit?
07:56:58 <SineTheCreator> nevermind, seems it is
07:57:02 <SineTheCreator> i hope they keep the refit
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08:17:10 <SineTheCreator> with the UK renewal set i've noticed that freight engines start being phased out in the late 20th century
08:17:21 <SineTheCreator> is that normal? or were they going for total realism
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11:38:48 <SineTheCreator> is there any way to load/interact with the map that plays behind the main menu?
11:38:53 <SineTheCreator> i have always wanted to do that
11:40:02 <Pinkbeast> Sine: It's a savegame like any other
11:40:45 <Pinkbeast> ... I don't know where it lives in an install, though.
11:40:59 <SineTheCreator> Pinkbeast: thanks man, i'll check it out!
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12:29:42 <Eddi|zuHause> just rename opntitle.dat to .sav
12:33:13 <peter1138> who deals with expect scripts?
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12:47:21 <Ristovski> planetmaker: Check G+ :D
12:52:59 <planetmaker> hm, yes, thanks, Ristovski
12:53:25 <Ristovski> planetmaker: No problem :P
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14:42:43 <Eddi|zuHause> "This is now the highest water level in 400 years" :o
14:52:35 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: congratulations with reaching that milestone ;)
14:52:58 <Rubidium> do they already know when levels might be normal again?
14:53:11 <Eddi|zuHause> it apparently is already sinking again
15:19:28 <samu> sound mixer, how should it look like when i play sound, and music with openttd
15:19:56 <samu> 1 openttd or 2 openttds?
15:20:39 <samu> i can mute sound by application
15:21:07 <samu> windows media player, if i mute that application, no more music from windows media player... how would that work with openttd playing sound and music at the same time...
15:22:01 <Rubidium> what about just trying it?
15:23:40 <samu> nevermind, nothing plays now
15:24:34 <samu> window media player still plays
15:25:28 <samu> openttd also seems to be playing, but with only sound, and very delayed sound all delayed, cut and playing at once
15:27:05 <samu> i hear sound coming from openttd once in 2 minutes... that's a gigantic delay, sounds effects from the game seem mixed on top of each other
15:29:13 <samu> ah, interesting, i stopped "playing" midi
15:29:33 <samu> sound effects are now playing fine
15:29:41 <samu> no delays, no cuts, no stutter
15:30:00 <samu> clicked stop button on openttd jukebox
15:30:31 <samu> windows media player still working
15:30:57 <samu> no issues at all with wmp, just openttd trying to play midi
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15:35:19 <samu> uh oh, this is not over... i have a delay starting a 2nd openttd
15:36:36 <samu> took about 30 seconds to start up openttd :/
15:36:57 <samu> no sound coming out of this one
15:38:38 <samu> let me restart windows media player - i precting it's going mute
15:39:38 <samu> no sound from windows media player
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15:45:46 <samu> screw it, i'm restarting windows
15:47:50 <samu> good, everything's fixed now
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15:53:55 <samu> sound mixer displays 1 openttd - it controls both music and sound, they're working fine for now
15:56:07 <samu> started a 2nd openttd, music and sound playing fine again, 1 more openttd displaying on windows sound mixer
16:00:23 <SineTheCreator> samu: why do you need two openttds running?
16:01:25 <samu> for some testings with AIs, or experimenting some builds on the current game going on
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16:08:45 <samu> i'm showing you a screenshot with it working as it should. Whenever it screws up again, I'm screenshoting again, you'll notice one or more programs trying to play on a sound device I don't use, or just playing mute on the only sound device
16:22:09 <planetmaker> yeah, seen that from UPS before. In my real-life inbox
16:26:10 <samu> similar to battle.net chat
16:28:10 <samu> only typing from within a game to others on the same game shows the correct latin script
16:28:28 <samu> typing from a game to someone on a friend list... messes up
16:28:38 <samu> typing on a chat channel messes up
16:28:53 <samu> typing from a chat channel to someone inside a game messes up
16:29:42 <samu> "don't worry, it's blizzard - they're the best"!!!
16:31:36 <Eddi|zuHause> "if this flood doesn't stop soon, Schröder will win the election" :p
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16:36:51 <tycoondemon> hwinfo is tha like a safe program? samu?
16:39:15 <samu> i had a few system lock ups on startup before with it, but that was fixed with a BIOS update on MB
16:40:15 * Eddi|zuHause tries to look up whether "system lock ups" and "BIOS update" fall under the definition of "safe"
16:40:32 <samu> safe, what safe do you mean?
16:41:20 <samu> it was trying to load up sensors at startup, and some sensor would lock the whoel system
16:41:49 <SineTheCreator> so i have discovered something interesting about default industries
16:42:42 <SineTheCreator> i've noticed that if you build your trains with twice as many cars to fit the capacity an industry puts out every month, you make a lot more profit compared to shorter trains. i've also noticed that industries ramp up production quicker if you do it this way
16:43:06 <SineTheCreator> for example if an oil field puts out 120,000 liters of oil, i would build a train that can carry 240,000 or as close to that as possible
16:43:19 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. you should time the trains in a way that there is always one waiting
16:43:37 <Eddi|zuHause> but oil fields never increase production
16:43:53 <SineTheCreator> yep. sometimes i have three or even four trains assigned to one primary station, and even more for stations that cater to multiple primaries
16:44:02 <SineTheCreator> it just depends on distance
16:44:10 <SineTheCreator> Eddi|zuHause: they don't?
16:44:12 <SineTheCreator> well that sucks
16:44:55 <SineTheCreator> well, i did it the same way for fruit. one my fruit plantations is outputting about 300% of it's base production rate
16:45:43 <planetmaker> it can output 2048 per month ;-)
16:45:56 <SineTheCreator> it started at 104 and it now going at 296
16:46:38 <SineTheCreator> where do these figures come from anyway?
16:46:52 <Eddi|zuHause> it can't do 256 per production cycle, only 255
16:46:57 <SineTheCreator> also i wonder if it's time to convert some of these stations to RoRo
16:47:10 <Eddi|zuHause> and there are 8 or 9 production cycles per month
16:48:36 <Eddi|zuHause> (that's why the display will fluctuate up and down a bit, without it announcing that it increased or decreased production)
16:55:19 <SineTheCreator> that explains a lot
16:55:33 <SineTheCreator> so how do we get to those insane numberS?
16:55:42 <SineTheCreator> obviously having trains waiting isn't enough
16:55:43 <planetmaker> continue as you do
16:56:02 <SineTheCreator> i know there's also a speed bonus for trains that go faster than 85 km/h
16:56:20 <SineTheCreator> planetmaker: so it just takes decades basically?
16:56:27 <planetmaker> having any vehicle load at all times is sufficient to get there. But it takes time. It's a random walk wiht a positive trend
16:57:02 <SineTheCreator> is there a newgrf that changes it to a more stable increase?
16:57:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure anyone ever did the calculations on what the average time to get to full production is
16:57:15 <SineTheCreator> i realize it'd be a cheat of sorts but it'd be fun to play with
16:57:28 <Eddi|zuHause> this also depends on whether you use the original or smooth economy
16:57:52 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, ECS and FIRS both have a feedback loop mechanism that guides this randomness
16:58:20 <Eddi|zuHause> in ECS that is vehicles, and in FIRS it's supplies
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17:43:10 <SineTheCreator> so water pumps do ramp up production but oil do not?
17:45:15 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25322 trunk/src/lang/german.txt (2013-06-05 17:45:08 UTC)
17:45:16 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:17 <DorpsGek> german - 1 changes by Jogio
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18:04:22 <samu> i'm so noob at train signals yet :(
18:05:57 <MNIM> I've played quite a bit of OTTD, and Im only now getting the hang of priority signaling.
18:07:04 <samu> do you know that Y like piece of tracks the TTDX AI do?
18:09:14 <samu> 1 main track, split into 2 tracks using that Y, then closing in with another Y back to the main track again?
18:10:44 <samu> i'm trying to put as many trains as possible using the Y's
18:12:24 <samu> brb, i'm going to screeshot, maybe someone could help aftewards
18:22:57 <NGC3982> The Kirby Machine is taking shape.
18:23:44 <V453000> samu: why not make the double rail on full length?
18:23:48 <samu> no signals because I'm trying to figure out which signals
18:24:15 <samu> it's just so it fits the screenshot
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18:27:19 <SineTheCreator> okay guys, got another odd train issue to ask about
18:27:44 <SineTheCreator> it's another cloverleaf junction. in this one, i have ONE train that is coming from NE and should go SW
18:27:56 <SineTheCreator> it does go SW, but for some reason, it follows the orange line instead of the green line
18:28:04 <SineTheCreator> there was no train in front. i am using one-way path signals.
18:28:25 <V453000> solution never ever build cloverleaf ever unless until threat of death
18:28:27 <SineTheCreator> other trains make the same route without doing the unnecessary loop
18:29:00 <SineTheCreator> they've worked fine for me until this one junction
18:29:41 <SineTheCreator> so what you're saying is that you may know why this happening but you won't tell me? :D
18:30:22 <planetmaker> no. He says that cloverleaf junctions are inefficient as hell
18:30:40 <planetmaker> no better way to jam a network than by cloverleaf junctions
18:31:05 <SineTheCreator> eh, they work fine for me. on my other game i've got one that junctions two mainline backbones and it never jams
18:31:09 <SineTheCreator> it's all in how you do the signals
18:31:12 <V453000> what I meant was that you just discovered why it is terrible
18:31:18 <V453000> or one of the reasons, to be more exact
18:31:21 <Wolf01> they work with one train per time :D
18:31:26 <SineTheCreator> V453000: if it's a pathing glitch, fine, that i can understand
18:31:48 <planetmaker> path finding cannot be judged from screenshots nor explanations alone
18:31:54 <SineTheCreator> Wolf01: it's not the fastest solution, true. but it never jams :D
18:32:22 <planetmaker> SineTheCreator, it jams. Jams like hell
18:32:33 <planetmaker> independent nearly from signaling
18:32:35 <SineTheCreator> now if you put signals at the apex point of the 'onramp' and the 'cloverleaf' then they do tend to jam
18:32:46 <planetmaker> unless you put only entry signals and no signal in the whole junction
18:32:52 <SineTheCreator> that's what i do
18:32:57 <SineTheCreator> it has entry signals and exit signals
18:32:58 <planetmaker> but then it's... as good as a one-tile * junction
18:33:13 <planetmaker> the exit signals will catch you ;-)
18:33:22 <Alberth> should work perfectly for 1 train :)
18:33:54 <Wolf01> if there is a train blocking the path where is the green arrow point, the following train on the bridge might take the orange path because the direct path is blocked, then when it arrives on the intersecting line it founds the direct path is free and returns on that
18:33:56 <SineTheCreator> but this allows more than one train to go over/under at the same time. it's more efficient than a * junction.
18:34:19 <SineTheCreator> or even a + junction
18:34:34 <planetmaker> a * junction can't jam ;-)
18:34:49 <SineTheCreator> neither can this. pay careful attention to my signals
18:35:07 <SineTheCreator> unless by jam you mean every now and then a train may need to stop to let the one in front of it go
18:35:26 <Wolf01> if you use wisely the PBS, you can also make more trains use a + or a * junction at once
18:35:31 <SineTheCreator> if you mean by jam that an impossible situation is created where no trains will ever be able to move forward, then it does not jam
18:35:59 <SineTheCreator> i use the latter definition for jam
18:36:19 <planetmaker> and I assert you that your analysis of the junction has flaws ;-)
18:36:41 <SineTheCreator> okay then :D i can provide a map with heavy traffic over that kind of junction. proof that it does not jam.
18:36:45 <Alberth> SineTheCreator: throw some more trains at it, and see how it behaves :)
18:36:52 <planetmaker> works for a handful of trains without dense traffic != cannot jam
18:37:15 <SineTheCreator> Alberth: i have another map that uses lots of those junctions. on the main one it has at least 20 trains pass through it every minute on fast-forward.
18:37:30 <SineTheCreator> er more like 10 seconds
18:37:31 <planetmaker> 20 trains per minute w/o ff
18:37:50 <planetmaker> input to all lines
18:38:02 <SineTheCreator> hold on, i'll load that map and count them
18:38:16 <planetmaker> load the junction. Over load it. And you'll see that it can jam
18:39:36 <V453000> everything can jam, point is that cloverleaf can probably join the earliest ouf of all construction kinds
18:39:44 <V453000> it has about every mistake possible
18:39:44 <SineTheCreator> okay, i counted. 16 trains per minute at regular game speed
18:39:55 <SineTheCreator> i dont know if that is average. but it's always busy.
18:40:23 <V453000> busy is Full line coming from every end in and out
18:40:27 <planetmaker> your signaling of the junction is somewhat inconsistent
18:42:03 <planetmaker> quite frankly, I don't, frosch123
18:42:07 <SineTheCreator> Alberth: thanks, but i've played games years ago with over 1,000 trains. i know what heavy load is :D
18:42:09 <TWerkhoven> the boxes should be as tall as one line, instead they are high enough to hold multiple lines ?
18:42:15 <SineTheCreator> planetmaker: yeah, there's that one odd signal in the middle
18:42:23 <SineTheCreator> it's for the station run
18:42:26 <planetmaker> only thing I can think of, is that the line separators in the list are... funny
18:42:34 <frosch123> oh, the matrix grid lines
18:43:18 <SineTheCreator> V453000: once again, i'll ask you to tell me what exactly makes it so bad. just saying "it's terrible and can jam" without giving no reason why doesn't really mean much.
18:43:33 <SineTheCreator> er, giving any reason*
18:43:35 <Alberth> frosch123: that's what I thought too; somehow the number of rows is not inceased, it seems
18:44:21 <planetmaker> hm, #5586 is fixed already, yes?
18:44:37 <V453000> first of all it is a 4way junction which in general is extremely unflexible and unexpandable. Second, your single bridge per line is dangerous and easy to jam or cause slowdowns, the return paths you marked mean that those are spots with increased train density which will break even more than other places
18:45:02 <V453000> signals make no sense at all, when there are actually any signals
18:46:29 <samu> i'm reading the wiki, so no matter what I do, I can only have 3 trains maximum given my sreenshot?
18:46:58 <SineTheCreator> the signals actually make perfect sense if you look at them, but okay. also, aren't 4-way junctions kind of necessary? and return paths -- do you mean the lines i drew on the screenshot? because those were only supposed to show the issue this train is having finding it's correct path.
18:47:11 <frosch123> Alberth: apparently broken since the store-default-window-size feature
18:47:31 <SineTheCreator> and finally, there are few signals in the junction because if you add too many it WILL jam
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18:47:48 <V453000> the first junction is systematically what you need as a basic thing to work with
18:47:54 <scshunt> why is it called a revue?
18:47:57 <SineTheCreator> having fewer signals means only one train can go through the junction at a time on any axis, but it will never jam unless there's a wreck.
18:48:59 <SineTheCreator> V453000: eh... revue as in 'review'?
18:49:49 <SineTheCreator> okay, well -> "A revue is a type of multi-act popular theatrical entertainment that combines music, dance and sketches."
18:49:57 <SineTheCreator> doesn't make much sense in this context
18:50:31 <V453000> a bit hard to explain
18:50:35 <Alberth> trains make no sound, and don't dance around the tracks? :o :)
18:50:36 <V453000> look it is just a name k :D
18:50:46 <SineTheCreator> and to be fair, sure, i could build some of those insane openttdcoop 4-way hubs. but for just a few trains isn't that just a bit unreasonable?
18:50:54 <SineTheCreator> i mean, it's not like i've got 500 trains here
18:51:06 <V453000> well why do you have just a few trains
18:51:15 <V453000> I didnt say those are necessary for low throughput
18:51:29 <SineTheCreator> i just started this new map this morning
18:51:31 <V453000> but making a cloverleaf guarantees you wont be able to expand it to anything solid
18:51:38 <SineTheCreator> i've only got 40-some trains
18:51:49 <SineTheCreator> ahh, i see what you're saying
18:51:52 <V453000> 3-way junctions and leaving around a lot of space is the way to go for long-term games
18:51:55 <SineTheCreator> it's hard to make it larger in the future
18:52:14 <V453000> cloverleaf is also bad in the present as I tried to hint earlier
18:52:32 <SineTheCreator> but why is that? does it break pathing or something?
18:52:48 <SineTheCreator> or just because the trains have to do a large curve?
18:53:04 <V453000> just send there a lot of trains and you will see yourself
18:53:11 <V453000> lets leave it at that
18:53:12 <SineTheCreator> no i mean the loop itself, not the junction
18:53:23 <SineTheCreator> for example my 3-way is two
18:53:48 <SineTheCreator> two 'onramps' on one side of the line with bridges or tunnels and two cloverleaf loops on the opposite side
18:55:49 <SineTheCreator> is that junction bad because it uses the cloverleaf loops?
18:56:24 <V453000> to be exact, the top train is joining the top train before trains split from it
18:56:28 <V453000> we call that join before split
18:56:39 <V453000> meaning the part between those tracks gets increased traffic for no reason
18:57:09 <SineTheCreator> i see what you mean now
18:57:25 <SineTheCreator> you're talking about the piece of mainline that goes 'between' the entrance and exit ramps
18:57:37 <SineTheCreator> they're reversed from how they should be
18:57:55 <SineTheCreator> so... how do i fix it? just make longer bridges/tunnels on one side of the track?
18:57:58 <V453000> without that the junction is systematically alright
18:58:12 <V453000> no just make one of them go to the other direction
18:58:20 <V453000> aka e.g. make it wrap around the other one
18:58:29 <V453000> causing it to join/split at the appropriate spot
19:00:03 <samu> I couldn't make this work - 2 trains are waiting for the other 2 trains in the opposite direction
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19:01:01 <samu> max is still 3 trains no matter what signals I can think of
19:01:49 <V453000> SineTheCreator: it is preferable to remove the crossing
19:01:54 <V453000> like a lot preferable :)
19:02:45 <SineTheCreator> yeah, i figured it was bad to have any kind of crossing like that :D
19:03:17 <V453000> that fixes the issue entirely
19:03:30 <SineTheCreator> there's no more efficient way?
19:03:47 <V453000> efficiency isnt only in such basic things
19:03:51 <SineTheCreator> that is more efficient, both in balancing and space used
19:03:59 <V453000> right now you have systematically solid construction
19:04:08 <V453000> if it breaks you just need more lines, more bridges, more stuff
19:04:29 <V453000> and building more brings more systematical things to be interested in
19:08:00 <V453000> not quite, the crossings would create a lot of issues again
19:08:01 <SineTheCreator> i'll take a look at those merging tracks and hubs pages too, thanks
19:08:44 <V453000> as you can see, single line differs from double tremendoulsy
19:09:36 <V453000> mosly because you need to allow trains to choose which track to exit from the hub, described at the merging tracks page
19:09:51 <V453000> obviously this problematic applies to all line counts higher than 2
19:12:24 <V453000> samu: build full 2-track :)
19:12:44 <V453000> things like this are temporary and worthless
19:12:50 <V453000> by which I dont mean you cant fix your thing
19:13:56 <samu> ah, i'm interested in that
19:14:56 <SineTheCreator> samu: yes, definitely 2-track all the way :D
19:15:29 <SineTheCreator> instead of having the depot at your station head, run the track all the way on that side. then put the depot somewhere else. it can be on the incoming or outgoing line, your choice.
19:15:45 <SineTheCreator> i like to put my depots in-line and remove the 'cross' track section. forced maintenance.
19:16:05 <V453000> depot placement is also possible to make reasonable conclusions of but I wont bother you with that now
19:16:44 <samu> what do you name those 2 Y things?
19:16:57 <SineTheCreator> i do try to balance them. i.e. if i have depot on outgoing line at station A, i like to have one on outgoing line at station B too, if it's a long trip
19:19:17 <samu> I wanted to solve this puzzle with only signals
19:20:06 <Alberth> send the outermost trains back to the depot
19:20:25 <V453000> then try to see how path reserving works samu, and remove the signals where trains stop and arent meant to stop
19:21:01 <Alberth> samu: don't place signals at points where a train would block the junction if it stops in fron of the signal
19:22:30 <V453000> if you want a serious hint, do not use the path based (red) signals
19:22:38 <V453000> they will confuse you a lot more in the long run
19:24:05 <samu> ok, i removed 2 signals at each Y thing
19:33:28 <samu> train size can't be too large
19:33:47 <alluke> they must fit into the passing places
19:34:02 <MNIM> protip: put the signals at the diagonal pieces instead, gives you one tile extra
19:34:18 <alluke> i have it in the leftmost one
19:34:19 <samu> yes,that's where i did singals
19:34:31 <alluke> harder at the other one
19:34:37 <MNIM> alluke: ah, didn't notice
19:34:49 <samu> so I can now put an infinite number of trains? they will wait inside depots?
19:34:50 <alluke> because i prefer to keep right-hand traffic
19:35:02 <samu> but will always circulate?
19:38:20 <samu> it works, but sometimes a train waits too long inside a depot
19:41:32 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
19:41:35 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 10 weeks, 6 days, 10 hours, 58 minutes, and 47 seconds ago: <Pikka> I do not want to watch a half-hour video for the one little piece of information I need and which probably isn't in there anyway
19:41:49 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: yexo was last seen in #openttd 26 weeks, 5 days, 6 hours, 25 minutes, and 17 seconds ago: <Yexo> <NGC3982> The station glitches are CHIPS related. I adressed it to Andy the other day, and it seems like it's b0rked in some way. <- it's still in the issue tracker for CHIPS, but I haven't had time to look at it yet
19:44:10 <Alberth> samu: double tracks everywhere is much more efficient
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19:45:38 <alluke> theyre more efficient than short ones
19:47:16 <Alberth> only if you have large amounts of cargo to move :)
19:56:26 <samu> those entry and exit signals won't help here ?
19:58:33 <Alberth> not useful mostly, they were created before there were path signals
19:59:07 <Alberth> some V persons here will disagree with that statement :)
20:00:31 <Alberth> in openttdcoop signal magic :)
20:01:02 <Alberth> but don't worry about that for a long time :)
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20:02:43 <samu> how does the priority of a train getting out a depot works if there's mutliple trains inside waiting to go out? who goes out first?
20:03:13 <Alberth> the first one, but there is no way to tell which it is
20:03:37 <alluke> what are those 90° turns in the second pic
20:04:21 <alluke> trains cant even drive there
20:05:38 <samu> I get train 5 going into a depot, then waits
20:05:49 <samu> a train 6 goes into that same depot with 5 inside
20:05:52 <Alberth> alluke: the priority page? tracks are used solely for passing a signal between blocks there
20:06:24 <alluke> good thing im realistic player
20:07:05 <samu> between 6 going out, there's some other train that doesn't go to depot, but goes to the station instead
20:07:30 <samu> train 6 and 5 are waiting, but still... 6 goes out first
20:10:41 <samu> name: Approaching easy difficulty
20:11:09 <samu> the sound issue is back again....
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20:25:45 <alluke> fts has become so popular that showtek made a song about it
20:29:34 <samu> waveOutWrite failed - Sounds are disabled until restart. [OK]
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21:11:34 <samu> someone talk to me, i wanna see if IE10 is playing sound
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21:14:42 <samu> i think i fixed audio again, must confirm IE10, the only thing I didn't exited while killing processes
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21:17:36 <alluke> does someone really use ie
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21:19:38 <alluke> scooter - see me feel me
21:19:48 <alluke> gotta love the ol classix
21:20:05 <samu> talk to me liek this please
21:20:40 <samu> ok must restart IE10, brb
21:21:28 <samu> aha, i get sound, thank you
21:21:50 <samu> so, my sound problem is some audio service
21:22:03 <samu> I have 3 audio services, is it normal to have 3? maybe more...
21:22:32 <alluke> i still dont know whats audio service
21:23:24 <samu> going to windows services, there a crapload of services I have no idea what they're for, there's at least 3 I noticed related to audio
21:27:16 <samu> i have tried firefox before
21:29:13 <samu> my parents aren't familiar with ff interface
21:30:03 <samu> i only have 1 system with a browser other than ie, it uses chrome
21:30:11 <samu> because neither ie or ff work
21:30:59 <samu> my parents don't like chrome interface as well
21:31:19 <samu> but i have no other choice, it's the only one that works on that system
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21:36:48 <alluke> and you cant keep multiple browsers on the computer?
21:38:57 <V453000> you cant keep any secret
21:39:20 <samu> why yes I could, but what for
21:40:32 <alluke> yeah i think the parents would wonder once again why is the browsing history deleted
21:40:34 <Rubidium> alluke: no, for some reason I can't have IE 5 and IE 10 on the same computer
21:41:20 <V453000> if you use ie, you dont need anything else
21:41:51 <V453000> also people using ie should be brought to justice
21:42:14 <alluke> i think they should be shot
21:42:47 <samu> i can't use ff nor ie on that 1 system
21:42:54 <V453000> rubidium runs IE under wine? :P
21:43:22 <V453000> I am not believing you ever use windows
21:43:28 <samu> requires DX10 capable hardware
21:43:48 <alluke> i use windows to ventilate my room
21:43:49 <samu> chrome is the only one that works
21:43:50 <Rubidium> V453000: well... $job uses Windows almost exclusively
21:44:34 <samu> something about windows driver model yada yada
21:45:04 <Rubidium> V453000: I refuse to use wine though
21:45:04 <alluke> i have ff on my laptop that has some intel shitchip
21:45:14 <Rubidium> V453000: mostly since it rarely ever works
21:45:16 <V453000> :D I tried to use photoshop with wine once
21:45:45 <alluke> why dont get it for your os?
21:46:14 <Prof_Frink> I've used IE under wine before.
21:46:24 <V453000> presumably because I didnt have it installed at that time?
21:46:38 <Rubidium> alluke: because you might not want to pay microsoft for Windows 7 or Apple for OS X 10.7?
21:47:29 <V453000> I have purchased windoze so that wouldnt fit his point either Rubi :)
21:48:04 <alluke> sorry i dont speak dutch
21:49:32 <Rubidium> nope, it's a verdict
21:50:44 <Rubidium> anyhow, I rather not use stuff I would need to pay for on my computer
21:51:56 <SineTheCreator> i really wish it was possible to build diagonal bridges
21:51:56 <alluke> did you get the photoshop dvd in an easter egg
21:52:25 <Rubidium> I never used photoshop to be honest; if I needed something like that I used GIMP
21:52:41 <SineTheCreator> Rubidium: 10.8 is out BTW :D
21:52:45 <Rubidium> so much easier to install and keep updated on my computer than Adobe stuff
21:52:53 <samu> i can't change "vehicle never expire" in multiplayer, but i can in single player, is that intended?
21:52:54 <SineTheCreator> photoshop is terrible
21:53:06 <SineTheCreator> samu: are you the server admin?
21:53:39 <SineTheCreator> can you change it before starting the game in the main menu's advanced options?
21:53:51 <V453000> SineTheCreator: if you used it for work, you would understand why Adobe products are good
21:54:21 <V453000> I agree that buying holyfuck expensive software for home usage is pointless unless you really have it as a hobby
21:54:47 <samu> rubidium says yes, I assume that's intended
21:55:13 <alluke> well i have photoshop cs5 because im poor skank
21:55:36 <alluke> something less expensive stuff too
21:56:00 <SineTheCreator> V453000: i have used it for work. i use gimp for work too.
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21:56:20 <SineTheCreator> i have also used illustrator and inkscape
21:57:33 <V453000> then I cant imagine by what reason can you call Adobe software bad
21:57:52 <SineTheCreator> it's bloated and the install/update process sucks?
21:57:59 <alluke> adobe software aint bad
21:58:09 <alluke> its just too expensive
21:58:19 <SineTheCreator> it's also overcomplicated and for some reason is like 400 megs?
21:58:31 <samu> adobe flash has one annoying issue - everytime it tells me to update, my internet connection is off
21:58:31 <V453000> ok not even replying to that
21:58:45 <SineTheCreator> good, i don't want to argue about it anymore
21:59:09 <SineTheCreator> i use what works and does what i need easiest. gimp does that, end of story, etc.
21:59:12 <samu> it's off, because it's mobile, off by nature at system start up
21:59:25 <samu> that's exactly when adobe thinks it's a good time to install an update
21:59:50 <SineTheCreator> yeah. photoshop and other CS apps do the same thing
21:59:57 <SineTheCreator> at least they do for me
22:00:04 <V453000> yes, and graphics designers use adobe stuff because it works better for them, I never said it has to work best for you if you cant handle adobe products by being "too complicated"
22:00:11 <SineTheCreator> actually there is one adobe app i do like - lightroom
22:00:37 <SineTheCreator> V453000: lol. whatever you say man.
22:00:51 <SineTheCreator> alluke: it's adobe's mass RAW photo editor
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22:01:17 <SineTheCreator> over the last two years i've probably sent 30,000 photos through it. it's always worked pretty well.
22:01:23 <V453000> I have yet to see one such person using other than adobe ... well corel is sometimes used too but that usually has other reasons
22:01:26 <alluke> how does it differ from photoshop
22:02:01 <SineTheCreator> V453000: adobe is the most-used in the graphic design industry because it's the best one.
22:02:08 <SineTheCreator> but being the best doesn't necessarily make it good
22:02:21 <V453000> how does that even make sense
22:02:33 <SineTheCreator> i said being the best of something doesn't automatically mean you're good
22:02:54 <samu> this update also messes up with internet cache, i don't know what cache they mean, it seems like websites keep track of my visits
22:02:59 <SineTheCreator> if we were comparing cars, we'd say that the best yugo that ever rolled off the line was still one of the worst cars ever
22:03:04 <SineTheCreator> see how it works now?
22:03:07 <samu> when that cache doesn't happen
22:03:15 <V453000> that is about the same logic retard samu uses, everybody is bad, including the best
22:03:18 <samu> then websites don't open
22:03:36 <alluke> samu: i recommed you to back up all your important stuff and reinstall windows
22:03:42 <alluke> looks like youve fucked everything up
22:03:51 <SineTheCreator> V453000: i think there's a language barrier or something here, because it's a pretty widely-used saying
22:03:57 <V453000> which is irrelevant SineTheCreator , you cannot say that the best car is terrible either :)
22:03:59 <SineTheCreator> "being the best doesn't mean you're good" etc
22:04:05 <alluke> continuous error messages about everything
22:04:17 <SineTheCreator> V453000: uh, you can when it's the best yugo and you're comparing it to any other car on earth
22:04:25 <SineTheCreator> you don't get the saying, it's fine. let's just move on.
22:04:49 <V453000> why would you compare graphics software to anything else?
22:04:55 <samu> i have to repeatedly refresh the page or clear all cached content
22:05:03 <SineTheCreator> does he always make people want to shoot themselves? :D
22:05:04 <V453000> if you are comparing photoshop to internet explorer, well, k
22:05:17 <SineTheCreator> V453000: okay, let me put it to you like this
22:05:25 <SineTheCreator> photoshop is the best graphics editing package there is, yes?
22:05:28 <SineTheCreator> we agree on that?
22:05:36 <SineTheCreator> but i think it could be a lot better than it is.
22:05:53 <V453000> alright, waht cant be better than it is
22:05:59 <SineTheCreator> alluke: get paint.net foo :D
22:06:07 <SineTheCreator> V453000: no, i mean a lot better
22:06:10 <samu> i use paint because it's sufficient for me, at least for what I do
22:06:18 <SineTheCreator> like, sony vegas pro vs. adobe premiere pro better
22:06:26 <V453000> right so just because a thing can be a lot better, yet is the best, it is bad
22:06:29 <V453000> makes perfect sense to me
22:06:32 <samu> windows movie maker for example, SUCKS
22:06:32 <alluke> adobe premiere is horrible
22:06:40 <samu> so i use something else, virtualdub
22:06:42 <SineTheCreator> alluke: exactly
22:06:55 <alluke> i use my old imovie hd and its the best video software i know
22:06:59 <SineTheCreator> it's the worst video editing package in existence, yet it's marketed to pro video editors
22:07:16 <SineTheCreator> which is why nobody buys it, but that is beside the point
22:07:49 <samu> virtualdub has its share of problems too, because of "proprietary crap no one cares about", i just want something that works
22:07:53 <SineTheCreator> V453000: and on photoshop and illustrator. i know artists that use them because they have to. because adobe is the industry standard. but they HATE it.
22:08:02 <SineTheCreator> there is a reason for that -- it means adobe sucks.
22:08:12 <alluke> and still the best video editor ever made
22:08:19 <SineTheCreator> samu: virtualdub is barely a video editor :d
22:08:25 <V453000> your logic is so retarded it hurts
22:08:32 <V453000> people hate something because there isnt anything better
22:08:39 <SineTheCreator> V453000: no, your failure to understand simple logic is what hurts
22:08:46 <samu> i use handbrake at the end of the chain
22:08:49 <SineTheCreator> it's like protools
22:09:12 <SineTheCreator> protools is a pretty crap music production platform. i know, i've been using it for years. i can count at least 5 other DAWs that are better
22:09:13 <V453000> so why dont they go and make better software or give feedback to adobe so it would be better
22:09:27 <SineTheCreator> but protools is the 'industry standard' so everyone uses it. because it's the frakking industry standard.
22:09:40 <SineTheCreator> V453000: not my job.
22:09:54 <SineTheCreator> and giving feedback to adobe is almost as useful as giving feedback to microsoft
22:09:59 <SineTheCreator> it will get you absolutely nowhere
22:10:20 <SineTheCreator> when was the last time you submitted a crash report and core dump to microsoft and they actually did something about it? seriously?
22:10:27 <V453000> well then use better software :>
22:10:31 <SineTheCreator> yeah, that's what happens with adobe. you get totally ignored.
22:10:47 <V453000> I dont see why would anybody be forced to use industry standard
22:11:23 <SineTheCreator> 453000 | well then use better software :> <-- I do. instead of protools, i use reaper pro. instead of adobe premiere, i use vegas pro. instead of using photoshop and illustrator, i use gimp and inkscape.
22:11:36 <samu> my end video is .mp4 extension
22:11:54 <SineTheCreator> V453000: when you're working in a production-oriented industry like music, film, photo, etc... sometimes you are forced to use the industry standard format.
22:11:56 <samu> it is using he-aac for audio
22:11:58 <SineTheCreator> it's just the way the industry works
22:12:06 <SineTheCreator> that's why they call it industry standard ffs
22:12:36 <V453000> you can always do your own thing, eventually with drawbacks
22:12:47 <samu> and H.264, defined by handbrake
22:12:47 <SineTheCreator> V453000: lol. not in music production you can't.
22:13:08 <SineTheCreator> if you have to send a master track copy to a distribution house and they need the protools archive, you've got to send the f**king protools archive
22:13:10 <SineTheCreator> do you get it now?
22:13:18 <samu> something from handbrake
22:13:23 <SineTheCreator> you can't send them a WAV or a FLAC, they need the protools file.
22:13:28 <V453000> who said you need to make money by sending anything to anybody
22:13:43 <SineTheCreator> god damn this guy has no idea how the world works. i'm done with this discussion
22:13:53 <SineTheCreator> come back to me when you have a clue what you're talking about
22:14:34 <samu> HE-AAC v2 i think, let me re-check
22:15:09 <SineTheCreator> samu: what was your issue?
22:15:14 <alluke> why did apple change imovies perfect interface
22:15:20 <SineTheCreator> x264 output wasn't working?
22:15:27 <alluke> the new versions are total horse shit
22:15:29 <SineTheCreator> alluke: try final cut X, i hear it does't suck now
22:15:48 <samu> Nfsw 2012 06 25 15 51 19 516 Crop HEv2 Android High AAC Passthru.mp4
22:15:50 <SineTheCreator> eh, final cut X is frickin easy
22:15:53 <alluke> im happy with this 7 years old
22:15:57 <SineTheCreator> if you think that is diffcult you should try vegas pro
22:16:15 <samu> and some MKA in-between that disappears
22:16:17 <SineTheCreator> or, god forbid, avid media composer
22:16:32 <SineTheCreator> aka the most overcomplicated video production package ever made
22:16:43 <SineTheCreator> but it's the industry standard so we all have to suck it up :/
22:17:42 <SineTheCreator> drag your clips in and slide
22:17:56 <SineTheCreator> you pull these little bars on the beginning and end of clips to add fades and such
22:18:10 <SineTheCreator> yeah, i wouldn't doubt it
22:18:16 <SineTheCreator> imovie used to be more pro than it is now
22:18:18 <alluke> i guess apple changed it because imovie was too good
22:18:24 <alluke> and they want people to buy final cut
22:18:32 <SineTheCreator> that is exactly why
22:18:43 <samu> for raw video capturing, i use MSI Afterburner, with Lagarith enconding
22:18:45 <SineTheCreator> it's also the same reason windows live movie maker changed and got more simple.
22:18:55 <alluke> i cba to waste gigs of hdd space for final cunt
22:19:00 <SineTheCreator> microsoft was going to build their own pro editing package but they dropped it
22:19:01 <alluke> imovie hd is only 42 mb
22:19:07 <SineTheCreator> i guess it may come back for windows 8 though, who knows
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22:19:37 <samu> i can capture at 1920x1080 at about 30 fps
22:19:51 <SineTheCreator> alluke: i know. i'm saying just get a copy without the content packs
22:19:57 <SineTheCreator> the app itself is only like 250 megs
22:20:09 <alluke> but this machine will hear up to 70-80c if u capture fullscreen game
22:20:17 <samu> "only" is too much for me lol
22:20:35 <SineTheCreator> what are you guys trying to capture anyway?
22:20:48 <alluke> my hot neighbours webcam
22:20:50 <SineTheCreator> need for speed ..?
22:21:05 <SineTheCreator> i haven't played one since shift, so...
22:21:17 <alluke> i have carbon on this machine
22:21:19 <samu> i have a few videos here
22:21:26 <SineTheCreator> what are you using to capture?
22:21:37 <alluke> and mw on the laptop which i got only for pure boredom when this machine was being repaired
22:21:43 <samu> me? msi afterburner with a 3rd party enconder, lagarith
22:21:51 <SineTheCreator> samu: try dxtory
22:21:57 <SineTheCreator> it's the best game recorder
22:22:15 <samu> I tried, it jerks, and it puts a gigantic DXTORY watermark
22:22:18 <SineTheCreator> it can output directly to h264/mp3 or h264/aac in mp4 or mkv format
22:22:28 <SineTheCreator> no i don't mean the trial version
22:22:31 <samu> afterburner is slower, but no watermark
22:22:44 <SineTheCreator> and the jerkiness is probably a setting dxtory
22:22:51 <SineTheCreator> set it to capture at 30fps
22:23:07 <SineTheCreator> then you should still be able to run the game at 60fps or whatever and it will just fill in
22:23:07 <samu> afterburner isn't perfect either
22:23:17 <samu> but for me it has the best compromise
22:23:24 <SineTheCreator> i used to record DayZ footage at 720p30 while playing at 1080p60
22:23:32 <SineTheCreator> and need for speed shift footage as well
22:24:15 <samu> there's another that I try from time to time
22:24:35 <SineTheCreator> bandicam is terrible
22:25:34 <samu> well, the fastest one is still dxtory, then bandicam, then afterburner
22:25:45 <SineTheCreator> yep. dxtory is the best :D
22:25:55 <SineTheCreator> it can even record multiple sound channels with keybinds
22:26:11 <samu> i found this out by capturing a benchmark, dxtory outputs the most fps
22:26:22 <SineTheCreator> so you can, for example, record in-game sound AND a microphone or somesuch. it just records multiple audio tracks when you can then play with in editing.
22:26:41 <SineTheCreator> samu: also... you can just record to RAW video and get higher framerates with dxtory
22:26:50 <SineTheCreator> then you can stitch it together in editing and output as h264
22:27:12 <SineTheCreator> it uses a crapload more space though
22:27:17 <samu> what I noticed different between these 3 and the different fps results was how much GPU usage
22:27:35 <SineTheCreator> well, h264 can use GPU to encoded
22:27:48 <SineTheCreator> so if you're using dxtory it should be able to take advantage of it
22:27:50 <samu> the one that gets closer to 100% GPU usage, averages the most FPS
22:27:57 <SineTheCreator> if you have an ati card it uses opencl, nvidia it uses cuda
22:28:29 <samu> dxtory gets the most GPU usage
22:28:37 <SineTheCreator> yeah, because the gpu is doing the encode work
22:28:41 <SineTheCreator> i just told you why :D
22:29:01 <samu> with cpu doing encoding to HDD
22:29:01 <SineTheCreator> openCL is a video encode and decode language
22:29:15 <SineTheCreator> nooo.... with dxtory and h264 your GPU is actually doing the encoding
22:29:29 <SineTheCreator> unless you have a crappy intel gpu, which i doubt if you're recording at all
22:30:00 <samu> no, it's not GPU limited, it's CPU
22:30:18 <SineTheCreator> the cpu still has to handle the massive file dump operation from the video
22:30:18 <samu> normal gaming pushes GPU up to 100% usage
22:30:26 <SineTheCreator> of course it does
22:30:34 <SineTheCreator> that's what your GPU is there for
22:30:42 <SineTheCreator> bah, nevermind
22:30:49 <samu> when capturing, DXtory makes GPU usage change to about 80-90%
22:31:17 <samu> the other 10-20% are not being used
22:31:26 <SineTheCreator> samu: no, they are. just not for the game.
22:31:38 <SineTheCreator> that's my point. dxtory is using your GPU to encode the video
22:31:39 <samu> so, i assume there's a bottleneck somewhere in how the program captures, CPU? Encoding? I/O?
22:31:42 <SineTheCreator> the CPU still has to render it
22:31:47 <SineTheCreator> as in, the huge file
22:31:56 <SineTheCreator> no... that is normal operation
22:32:27 <SineTheCreator> when you GPU is being partly used for rendering video, some apps will not report the utilization
22:32:33 <SineTheCreator> i doubt afterburner would
22:32:37 <samu> well, bandicam is 75-85% GPU usage
22:32:45 <samu> and afterburner is the lowest
22:32:53 <SineTheCreator> bandicam uses your GPU to render as well
22:33:05 <SineTheCreator> afterburner may also, i dunno
22:33:58 <samu> the smoother capturer is afterburner, it's the opposite
22:34:19 <samu> the end result video looks smooth, and playing also is smooth while capturing
22:34:49 <samu> brb, let me dig my screenshots
22:35:02 <SineTheCreator> eh, i don't care :D just use whatever works best on your system
22:35:08 <SineTheCreator> if you have an msi card it may work better
22:35:16 <SineTheCreator> i just know that dxtory is the best for my hardware
22:35:21 <SineTheCreator> i have an XFX HD5850
22:35:31 <SineTheCreator> anyways, back to what i was doing before
22:36:14 <samu> well, at the end of the day, it depends on the game - too heavy or too light
22:36:28 <samu> needs more fps or less fps
22:38:52 <samu> MSI Kombustor is a benchmark, that's what I used to test the 3 video capturing tools
22:39:00 <samu> each one has its own score
22:40:01 <samu> baseline (that means, no capturing, just playing the game): X968 (27 fps average)
22:40:41 <samu> afterburner lagarith: X773 (19 fps)
22:41:05 <samu> bandicam lagarith: X859 (22 fps)
22:41:26 <samu> dxtory lagarith: X908 (25 fps)
22:42:40 <samu> oops, for baseline, i actually mean just running the benchmark in this case
22:50:53 <samu> these logged lowest fps don't reflect the jerkiness I experienced... :(
22:51:43 <samu> there are dropped frames during encoding, most noticeable with bandicam
22:58:05 <alluke> why the fuck do i find myself listening to aaron carter at 2 am
22:58:26 <samu> bah imgur - security error -230
23:02:46 <samu> there you have it, skydrive > imgur
23:06:19 <samu> msi kombustor is a gpu benchmark
23:06:42 <alluke> is it 17:25 there where you are
23:08:53 <samu> i benchmarked while capturing to see how much of a decrease I would get in the results
23:12:38 <SineTheCreator> samu: by that data dxtory is the fastest one. which makes sense. dxtory uses the least system resources.
23:12:45 <SineTheCreator> it's very lightweight as capture apps go
23:13:01 <SineTheCreator> also, imgur > *
23:14:11 <samu> i don't really know if it's easy to conclude that
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23:15:04 <samu> these results tell me how good I could play
23:15:13 <samu> the end result however, the file that was created... is jerky
23:15:33 <samu> that's something I can't easily prove to you unless I send u the videos, I no longer have them
23:17:13 <samu> on a racing game you can notice it really well
23:18:27 <samu> dxtory playback file was something like... accelerating, slowing, accelerating, slowing, acceleration, slowing
23:18:29 <alluke> e-rotic - dont make me wet
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23:19:44 <samu> bandicam playback file had many dropped frames at the first 30 seconds
23:19:52 <samu> then went smoth thereafter
23:20:26 <samu> afterburner, not as fast as the others, but had the smoothest file playback
23:22:57 <samu> depending on the game, afterburner is good enough if the game is still playable at slower framerates
23:29:58 <alluke> on days its sweltering hot
23:30:07 <alluke> but at nights nice n cool
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23:36:43 <samu> bandicam's own codecs are so bad... :(
23:39:24 <samu> SineTheCreator: you're still there?
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continue to next day ⏵
