IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-05-12
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01:39:20 <Starmie> i just forgot my username on the forums
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08:54:59 <Alberth> is there a way to detect whether an industry has limits on its acceptance rate, other than observing i->incoming_cargo_waiting[..] becoming > 0 ?
08:57:33 <planetmaker> and it would be very hard to accurately get that: it could be 0 in January, 10 in March and 150 in August
08:58:06 <planetmaker> newgrfs have callbacks for acceptance. And can do basically everything there
08:58:23 <Alberth> yeah, I thought as much :(
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09:06:01 <planetmaker> Alberth, what you can probably do, though: check for that callback being active at all
09:06:56 <Alberth> ieks, the phone of LordAro plays OpenTTD!
09:07:59 <LordAro|Phone> Hi planetmaker &Alberth
09:08:42 <Alberth> I want to remove the "cargo waiting to be processed" text lines when not needed
09:08:50 <planetmaker> Alberth, property 22 industries, bit 4 (input) and 5 (for output)
09:10:14 <planetmaker> hm, that's rather related to production callback, no?
09:11:19 <Alberth> could be, the structure of the newgrf specs are beyond my understanding
09:11:52 <planetmaker> how much of the delivered cargo is processed is determined by the production callback. Which normally is run as often till there's no cargo left
09:12:10 <Alberth> for some industry sets :p
09:12:21 <planetmaker> also default industries
09:12:44 <Alberth> yes, but they don't have the callback afaik
09:12:50 <planetmaker> default behaviour is basically to run the production callback till all input is processed upon delivery of cargo
09:13:17 <planetmaker> I'm quite sure it's the same code. That callback needs not activation
09:14:26 <planetmaker> hm, no frosch here to kick me when I tell bullshit :D
09:17:35 <planetmaker> btw, Alberth did you plan to look at NML's snowline?
09:18:38 <Alberth> I figured out what to do, ie add a multiplication/division code to each value the user supplies so it scales correctly
09:19:17 <Alberth> the code after that should then continue to work
09:20:17 <planetmaker> not a single bit. Or better: well-hidden
09:20:41 * Alberth sends some rays to planetmaker
09:21:15 <planetmaker> Alberth, feel free to commit, if you have anything working
09:21:20 <wakou2> Could one of you do me a little favour please.... I am sure it would be a trivial matter for you, and about three week of work/study for me...
09:21:21 <NGC3982> I have a clear sky, but it's a tad cold.
09:21:35 <NGC3982> So if you could DCC me some rays, i'd be happy.
09:22:08 <Alberth> wakou2: that will be probably be 3 weeks well spent, you can use that knowledge for the remainder of your life
09:22:23 <wakou2> I could just record it I suppose, but I 'need' the .wav or sound that 'the people' make when a new vehicle is introduced....
09:22:54 <__ln__> the sound is most likely copyrighted
09:23:30 <Alberth> it definitely has a copyright, but its license may allow some uses
09:23:33 <planetmaker> it is. Under GPL v2 for instance
09:23:41 <wakou2> Alberth: Yes, you are quite correct, of course. But my poor old brain simply does not 'get' coding, even a four line bash script makes me faint.
09:23:58 <Alberth> bash is horrible anyway :)
09:24:27 <Alberth> use Python instead, much saner
09:24:48 <NGC3982> wakou2: What do you need it for?
09:25:13 <wakou2> And when people advise me to use sed or awk.........and give me an example consisting entirely of punctuation marks, I have to turn to strong drugs....
09:25:46 <wakou2> NGC3982: a trivial reason, but sort of important to me......
09:26:08 <Alberth> wakou2: they are fun to make, but not too often :)
09:26:08 <wakou2> You see, my first love was a pretty girl..................................
09:26:32 <wakou2> #wakou drifts off in to an old man's reverie
09:27:11 <wakou2> That sound file reminds me of her, and she is chatting to me on Facebook (we are both in our fifties!)
09:27:40 <wakou2> And I would like to send it to her so she know WTF I am talking about....
09:28:04 <Alberth> she doesn't play OpenTTD? :(
09:28:49 <wakou2> That is why we never married. Simply incompatible!
09:32:19 <Rubidium> wakou2: see opensfx's sources, but you'll need to check what license it has and thus what you're allowed to do with it. It's definitely not GPL
09:38:24 <planetmaker> oh... sounds. yes, they're not gpl yet
09:41:16 <planetmaker> hm, looks interesting, Alberth
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10:01:48 <NGC3982> Ah, this feels refreshing.
10:02:03 <NGC3982> Haven't played for a while now, and recently joined one of my own servers
10:02:20 <NGC3982> Don't you just love coming back to good stuff after some time without it?
10:08:16 <planetmaker> "thanks for 18.6 billion Euro tax money. As we feel the need to say thanks, we prepared a chocolate present in our premises for you"...
10:10:27 <planetmaker> one of the banks which had to be bought by the state
10:11:21 <LordAro|Phone> They sound like nice people
10:12:13 <Alberth> they royally mess up with money of normal people, the state saves them, and they offer chocolate????
10:12:53 <planetmaker> they recently made an effort to buy back the shares the state bought. But... yeah.
10:12:57 <NGC3982> Something tells me, they do not agree on the idea that they messed up.
10:13:40 <Alberth> pretty much every bank in the world did
10:14:15 <LordAro|Phone> In britain, we give them lots of money, but they continue to pay themselves (executives) vast bonuses (>£500000)
10:14:36 <Alberth> yeah, ain't it great?
10:15:25 <NGC3982> Blame your government
10:15:33 <Alberth> how do you convert a real number to integer in NML/NFO?
10:15:49 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i do think it's fake/satire though
10:15:52 <planetmaker> NFO knows no real number
10:16:15 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: That was my first impression. They aren't that dumb..
10:16:48 <planetmaker> I'd not count on that ^
10:17:39 <Alberth> planetmaker: int() works on constants only, it seems
10:17:39 <Alberth> if not isinstance(val, (ConstantNumeric, ConstantFloat)): raise generic.ScriptError("Parameter for " + name + "() must be a constant", pos)
10:18:18 <Alberth> expression/functioncall.py line 403
10:19:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: what else would you use it on?
10:19:20 <planetmaker> hm... there's one problem with snowline from 0 ... 1: NewGRF Parameters can only be integer
10:19:45 <Alberth> planetmaker: hmm, no reals in NFO?? then what value is the parameter when you want snow at say 0.3 ?
10:19:45 <planetmaker> using 0 .. 1 as value there makes using parameters tricky. Or impossible?
10:20:14 <Eddi|zuHause> just make it 0..100 and say it's percent
10:21:01 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: good idea
10:21:06 <planetmaker> Alberth, yes, user would need enter 76 in the parameter
10:21:26 <planetmaker> and get snowline height of likely 5 or so
10:21:41 <Alberth> so no scaling at all then?
10:22:01 <planetmaker> I'd offer the user height levels
10:22:10 <planetmaker> and scale that 0 ... 16 to 0 ... 254
10:22:37 <planetmaker> of course... we could simply say in NML: there's no height beyond 16 (yet). Thus we only allow values 0 ... 16
10:22:43 <Alberth> ok, so what would you enter in the snowline table then?
10:22:50 <planetmaker> but that then would need change again, should there ever be more height level patch
10:23:05 <planetmaker> the snowline table must have the values scaled to 0 ... 254
10:23:24 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 15.9375
10:23:38 <planetmaker> param_snowline * 16
10:23:45 <Alberth> in NFO it must, what about NML snowline table?
10:23:46 <planetmaker> ^ that's what I'd put there
10:24:33 <Alberth> Hoe many heightlevels has the 'more height level patch' ?
10:24:35 <planetmaker> parameter severely screws a sane value range
10:24:46 <planetmaker> 64, 128, 256... depends, I guess
10:25:09 <Alberth> 0-1000 seems the next sane scale then
10:26:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i do see advantages for both absolute and relative levels
10:26:29 <planetmaker> both has pros and cons
10:27:18 <Eddi|zuHause> and what exactly is holding back the moreheightlevels anyway?
10:27:34 <planetmaker> pile of code, I guess
10:28:45 <Alberth> absolute versus relative is a different problem imho
10:29:35 <planetmaker> I agree. And sorry, I did not think of the parameter thing before
10:29:53 <planetmaker> in conjunction with int ()
10:30:44 <Eddi|zuHause> "float parameters" could be an action14 thing?
10:31:05 <planetmaker> Possibly could, yes
10:31:23 <planetmaker> though it has the problem of multiplayer and float
10:31:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. you give a min, max and step mapping from float to int
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10:32:47 <Eddi|zuHause> internally they are all integer values
10:32:54 <Eddi|zuHause> only for display they are converted to float
10:33:19 <planetmaker> hm, yes, that might work
10:34:06 <Eddi|zuHause> so you define 0=0 and 1=255, then it'll display 0.5 but the value is 128
10:34:16 <planetmaker> Alberth, in the sense of parameters... possibly I've been thinking too complicated. Maybe we just go for plain nfo values 0 ... 254 with special value 255 = SNOWLINE_NOWHERE
10:35:38 <Alberth> it's a bit weird to have an entire table for 255 :)
10:36:26 <Alberth> tbh, 0-1000 or "no_snow" seems nicer to me
10:37:44 <Eddi|zuHause> is someone playing 256 heightlevels really bothered that he can only set the snowline on 125 and 127 and not 126 when the range is 0..100?
10:38:35 <planetmaker> my problem is: how do I work with parameters then, Alberth. Assume I want - as I do - set snowline via parameter at two dates and interpolate
10:39:11 <planetmaker> date: int(-50 * cos(2.0 * 3.141596 * (date - 15) / 365)) * snowline_2xamplitude / 100 + snowline_offset;
10:39:12 <planetmaker> snowline_2xamplitude = (param_snow_july - param_snow_january);
10:39:12 <planetmaker> snowline_offset = min(param_snow_january, param_snow_july) + abs(snowline_2xamplitude / 2);
10:39:21 <Alberth> you currently use "equal" it seems, and not "linear"
10:39:50 <planetmaker> yes, I know. To save calculations. And the separation is close enough
10:40:02 <planetmaker> and cosine != linear :-)
10:40:44 <Alberth> I only look at what you do in the snowline table :)
10:41:17 <planetmaker> :-) I calculate heights first for dates. Then set it.
10:41:25 <Alberth> how does your caclulation fail in the new range of values?
10:41:38 <Alberth> ie it goes from the current 2-29 to 0-1000
10:42:34 <Alberth> which should be fixable by adjusting some magic multiplication constants
10:43:08 <Eddi|zuHause> if you have 0..<range-1> as parameter, just put int(cos*100)*param*254/100/range into the table
10:43:41 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: the point is that for NML input, you don't want to see the 254
10:44:14 <Alberth> at least, that's what I think
10:44:42 <Eddi|zuHause> just make it a "unit" like km/h or mph?
10:45:14 <Eddi|zuHause> so you write "tiles" or "percent", and it'll be converted?
10:45:39 <planetmaker> that sounds to me like the nicest solution really
10:46:04 <planetmaker> and most complicated
10:46:11 <planetmaker> guten Hunger, Alberth
10:46:13 <Eddi|zuHause> or "nfo" for no conversion
10:46:22 <planetmaker> err... enjoy your mean ^
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10:47:18 <Eddi|zuHause> "you're mean" :p
10:48:18 <planetmaker> yes, also that. I removed binaries after a week someone asked for source without asking again
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10:56:06 <frosch123> oh, never noticed that combining frogs with unicorns results in greenhorns :)
10:57:47 <frosch123> i think hiding and displaying it depending on whether stuff is waiting is weird
10:58:41 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: "tiles" won't work, as I don't know the number of heightlevels in the game at compile time
10:59:50 <planetmaker> how difficult is it to add a "%" unit - and use NFO units, if that is not used?
11:00:07 <Alberth> frosch123: indeed, that is also my problem
11:00:30 <Alberth> so your solution seems a better direction to me
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11:02:50 <Alberth> planetmaker: not so difficult, basically just wrap whatever value you supply in the input in a conversion expression (ie from your supplied "X" to "X * 254 / 100")
11:04:35 <planetmaker> so we accept statements like
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11:05:05 <planetmaker> and convert 55% to... 55/100*254
11:05:37 <Alberth> something in that direction indeed
11:05:39 <planetmaker> probably "55 percent" though in order to avoid conflicts wtih operator
11:06:07 <planetmaker> alternatively percent is normal and nfo means no conversion :-)
11:06:25 <Eddi|zuHause> the latter, i think
11:06:27 <planetmaker> 'nfo' exists already as unit
11:07:19 <planetmaker> ogfx-landscape? likely
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11:31:13 <Alberth> hmm, no 'percent' unit in nml, and it feels tmwftlb to add it
11:31:54 <frosch123> what unit does TE take?
11:32:26 <Eddi|zuHause> "float" is problematic because you can only use constants then, not parameters
11:32:51 <frosch123> then you are also screwed with %, aren't you?
11:33:33 <Eddi|zuHause> no, because % would allow for some integer maths
11:35:15 <Eddi|zuHause> you could do "float" with no unit, and "int" with "percent" and "nfo" units
11:35:53 <Eddi|zuHause> 0..1, 0..100 and 0..254 respectively
11:41:47 <Alberth> the literal may be tricky (ie snow% could be parsed as snow % ), but perhaps "percent" ?
11:42:59 <planetmaker> I'm somewhat reluctant to use plain 'percent'. It'd be blocked to be used anywhere else. Even when other scaling is needed
11:43:14 <planetmaker> that's how I understand it currently at least
11:43:27 <frosch123> why do you scale to 254?
11:43:37 <planetmaker> 255 = nowhere. regardless of height
11:43:55 <frosch123> yeah, and should you not be allowed to enter that value as "100 %" ?
11:45:45 <frosch123> and isn't it then the same percentage as for TE ?
11:46:08 <Alberth> so 90% snow is only a little bit?
11:46:41 <frosch123> it's snowline height, nor snow height :p
11:46:57 <frosch123> 100% snowheight of total landscape height would be a nice glacier though
11:47:30 <Alberth> exactly, so using 100% for no snow makes little sense imo
11:48:06 <frosch123> if the snowline is at 100% of total landscape height, that means the snowline is above the landscape
11:48:50 <Alberth> I was thinking in amount of snow
11:49:09 <Alberth> which is perhaps a better notion from NML perspective
11:49:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i would find that very confusing, if you use the reciproke in NML than everywhere else (settings, NFO, ...)
11:53:59 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r25235 /trunk (4 files in 2 dirs) (2013-05-12 11:53:53 UTC)
11:54:00 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5543]: keep all cargo whenever cancelling reservations (fonsinchen)
11:55:13 <planetmaker> yes, I'd keep 100% = highest height
13:13:05 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Commit by rubidium :: r25236 trunk/src/ai/ai_instance.cpp (2013-05-12 13:12:55 UTC)
13:13:06 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: -Fix [FS#5547]: crash when AI is executing a command as it is bankrupted (removed from the game)
13:13:07 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: The command is placed in a queue for processing before it is bankrupted, after that the command
13:13:08 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: is executed. This command yields a failure because the company does not exist, but then it still
13:13:09 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: needs to call the callback. This callback tries to access the AI's virtual machine without any
13:14:35 <TrueBrain> stop making large commit messages that triggers my highlight! :@ :D <3
13:16:01 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Error: You haven't asked me a command; perhaps you want to see someone else's more. To do so, call this command with that person's nick.
13:16:09 <TrueBrain> hmm, funny, that doesnt work :P
13:16:11 <glx> in notice you are not hled
13:16:15 <TrueBrain> it does it when the stuff is too large :P
13:16:31 <TrueBrain> I believe there it has 1 or 2 lines more?
13:16:59 <glx> and of course it's a kind of hack so @more fails
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13:25:27 <frosch123> if it would depend on number of lines, then it would trigger for wt3
13:26:49 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Commit by rubidium :: r25236 trunk/src/ai/ai_instance.cpp (2013-05-12 13:12:55 UTC)
13:26:50 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: -Fix [FS#5547]: crash when AI is executing a command as it is bankrupted (removed from the game)
13:26:51 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: The command is placed in a queue for processing before it is bankrupted, after that the command
13:26:52 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: is executed. This command yields a failure because the company does not exist, but then it still
13:26:53 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: needs to call the callback. This callback tries to access the AI's virtual machine without any
13:26:57 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Error: You haven't asked me a command; perhaps you want to see someone else's more. To do so, call this command with that person's nick.
13:27:09 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, why doesn't it work?
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17:45:20 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25237 /trunk/src/lang (unfinished/frisian.txt welsh.txt) (2013-05-12 17:45:13 UTC)
17:45:21 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:22 <DorpsGek> frisian - 8 changes by Flexo
17:45:23 <DorpsGek> welsh - 9 changes by kazzie
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19:07:55 <imbitable> first time on irc since... maybe 7 years
19:08:08 <imbitable> it's a bit awkward :D
19:19:02 <oskari89> Has anybody noticed, that how hard it is to maintain proper tracking table with changes on grf?
19:19:44 <Alberth> what exactly are you tracking?
19:20:09 <oskari89> And the properties too
19:20:48 <Alberth> do you use a version control system?
19:21:02 <oskari89> No, haven't heard of that
19:21:03 <Alberth> at least tracking textual changes is easy then
19:21:33 <Alberth> ah, so you use HG (or Mercurial) ?
19:22:49 <oskari89> Alberth: Mercurial i think
19:23:13 <Alberth> then you already use a version control system :)
19:23:19 <LordAro> oskari89: mercurial is an example of a version control system :)
19:23:29 <LordAro> Alberth is too fast :l
19:23:29 <oskari89> It's a pain to update that always manually :P
19:23:52 <oskari89> Since the graphics change so often
19:24:23 <oskari89> And more of them, stats do change, etc....
19:24:49 <Alberth> ok, where does the data come from then?
19:25:00 <glx> just add a rule for commits: update this table before each commit
19:25:13 <Zuu> You could do like andythenorth and generate the website from the NewGRF data.
19:25:30 <oskari89> That could be nice :)
19:26:04 <Alberth> link the graphics directly from the devzone
19:26:42 <oskari89> But then, stat changes must be done manually
19:26:49 <Alberth> do you have the stats elsewhere?
19:27:04 <oskari89> On the already coded NML
19:27:13 <Alberth> by definition you don't want 2 sets of stats :)
19:27:28 <glx> write a parser to generate the file
19:27:40 <Eddi|zuHause> do it like CETS and get the stats from a tracking table :)
19:27:42 <Alberth> just CPP is easier perhaps
19:36:43 <juzza1> can someone here change my username for the openttd wiki?
19:37:19 <juzza1> for some idiotic reason i didnt register with my tt-forums/irc nickname
19:38:36 <DorpsGek> Commit by alberth :: r25238 /trunk/src (3 files in 2 dirs) (2013-05-12 19:38:30 UTC)
19:38:37 <DorpsGek> -Feature: Display imminent closure of an industry in its view window.
19:39:12 <Alberth> send an email to info@openttd
19:39:48 <Alberth> although I don't know what the policy of such requests is
19:41:12 <Alberth> oskari89: as you can see, people don't use the NML source as starting point; they store the data in another way, and generate the NML parts from that data
19:49:31 <glx> Alberth: and the generated NML is then too big to be compiled ;)
19:49:40 <Alberth> and you can generate your html file from that data as well
19:51:47 <Alberth> some people hack NML to get around it ;)
20:14:59 * Eddi|zuHause whistles innocently
22:07:59 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
22:33:24 <planetmaker> juzza1, you're a funny guy. You ask for a user name change, but don't give your current user name...
22:35:47 <V453000> that is simple math pm, he has only one name so if he gave you one he wouldnt have any :P sad panda then
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