IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-04-11
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06:57:55 <andythenorth> the title game is cheating :P
06:58:14 <andythenorth> it has rivers that can only be built in scenario editor
06:59:14 <V453000> and I forgot to disable the turtles I was testing so they are in the release version
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07:15:11 * andythenorth considers multi-lingual support for the docs :P
07:18:41 <Supercheese> Well, the .lngs already cover most stuff
07:19:01 <Supercheese> other than the few sentences on the main page anyway
07:19:41 <blathijs> We should translate our code comments! :-)
07:22:38 <V453000> apart from fuckload of wtf characters, Bauxitový důl I , I hate that language :P
07:23:04 <andythenorth> I'm a retard when it comes to unicode handling :P
07:23:26 <V453000> I shouldnt talk about that too much either :D
07:23:36 * andythenorth switches it back
07:23:44 <andythenorth> it's one piece of code to change it
07:23:55 <andythenorth> just load different lang file :P
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08:57:30 <__ln__> are there other commonly known 'additional' C++ preprocessors similar to Qt's moc?
09:01:01 <TinoDidriksen> Not that I can think of. People have a serious bias against any extra build step.
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09:03:29 <SpComb> cant't remember if arudino's ide did any preprocessing
09:04:15 <SpComb> Qt4's runtime signal type mismatch errors stink
09:10:14 <TinoDidriksen> MOC outputs Standard C++ - it's fine.
09:12:47 <peter1139> the problem is that it exists
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10:11:43 <peter1139> was there an OS that doesn't release memory when a program exists?
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10:14:30 <Pinkbeast> peter: 8-bit BASICs?
10:18:28 <Sacro> I recall having to reboot the machine between different demos
10:18:37 <Sacro> until I got the 512K RAM upgrade
10:19:06 <TinoDidriksen> AmigaOS was special...rebooting multiple times could free up more resources.
10:21:46 <Sacro> beware the blinking caps lock
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14:15:57 <Ristovski> planetmaker: hmm, may I ask where the openttd titlegame is kept?
14:16:11 <Ristovski> I would like to open it and take a look at the masterpiece :D
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14:22:20 <Eddi|zuHause> in the file called "opntitle.dat", just rename it to .sav and you can load it
14:25:53 <Ristovski> done, wow, that is an awesome map
15:00:03 <Eddi|zuHause> there is also an archive of all other submissions into the savegame contest
15:00:35 <Eddi|zuHause> finding it is left as an excercise to the reader.
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16:01:03 <planetmaker> I just saw your work on the firs string relation :-) Nice
16:01:22 <planetmaker> granted, the string naming... is also often very obvious :-)
16:02:14 <andythenorth> doing some other docs stuff now
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16:52:26 <Eddi|zuHause> i think planetmaker turns into fjb :p
16:53:03 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: is that the sound that a unicorn does?
16:53:03 <frosch123> you mean fjb replaced pm?
16:53:04 <andythenorth> python sorting shenanigans
16:53:34 <V453000> idk ask frosch123 garage holder
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16:57:20 <planetmaker> by which characteristica would that be defined, Eddi|zuHause ?
16:59:27 <frosch123> pff, you cannot trick us like that so easly, fjb
17:00:23 <frosch123> i hope you gave pm at least a copy of ottd when locking him to the cellar
17:02:28 <frosch123> what? i am last? :p
17:02:54 <Eddi|zuHause> no, there are a few more, but it drops really quickly after that :)
17:04:12 <Eddi|zuHause> that is since July 2007
17:04:17 <frosch123> why do your logs have more hits for me, than mine do?
17:05:51 <frosch123> ah, right, i have two log files
17:06:09 <Eddi|zuHause> apparently, my grep also counts "earthquake" :p
17:06:35 <frosch123> so, before 2009-12-18 there were actually only fjb and me
17:06:41 <Eddi|zuHause> [Mittwoch, 23. Juni 2010] [20:10:12] <frosch123> looks like there is "quak" in earthquakle
17:07:57 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, that highlighted me :)
17:08:24 <andythenorth> I could change the structure so the economies are the keys, and iterate over those
17:08:52 <andythenorth> those tuples are disposable
17:09:00 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: "lambda x: x['economies']"?
17:10:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. sorted(list, key = lambda blah: blah['economies']) or something
17:10:17 <andythenorth> tried that, barfs
17:10:27 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: barfs on what?
17:11:15 <andythenorth> TypeError: tuple indices must be integers, not str
17:11:24 <andythenorth> it's trying to get into the tuple that acts as the key?
17:11:38 <andythenorth> maybe I need to stick iteritems() in somewhere
17:11:43 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: have a more complete code example?
17:11:53 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i have a feeling the error is in a different place
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17:12:11 <andythenorth> you don't read my templating language :P
17:12:14 <andythenorth> but I'll make one
17:13:02 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: list.iteritems()
17:13:37 <Eddi|zuHause> and then key = lambda key, value: value['economies']
17:13:45 <Eddi|zuHause> or list.itervalues() and stuff
17:14:19 <Eddi|zuHause> but it's difficult to know without some actually run-able example
17:17:26 <andythenorth> think the lambda you gave me will work
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17:21:41 <frosch123> welcome, you are our 128th member. you have won the 7th bit
17:22:31 <KBuris|Work> Aw, thank you! I'd like to thank all 127 people who acted as stepping stones to my win! :-P
17:24:09 <KBuris|Work> I'm not a programmer, but I decided to go through the changelog between 1.2.3 and 1.3.0 - and I saw something in the changelog. "...Cargo lists cannot have genders..." - Is gender some part of the code as it is in terms of, say, romance languages, or an actual thing like differences between male and female passengers enabled?
17:25:02 <glx> KBuris|Work: translation stuff
17:26:06 <Eddi|zuHause> KBuris|Work: gender is a concept of our grammar engine for translations
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17:31:45 <Eddi|zuHause> KBuris|Work: the point of that commit message, however is, that this feature will not work for lists of cargos, because each cargo may have a different gender, and there is no automatic way to deduct the gender of the complete list
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17:32:48 <Eddi|zuHause> since there is no way, the author of that commit decided to not even try
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17:45:20 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25177 /trunk/src/lang (faroese.txt hungarian.txt) (2013-04-11 17:45:12 UTC)
17:45:21 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:22 <DorpsGek> faroese - 54 changes by FastNinja
17:45:23 <DorpsGek> hungarian - 2 changes by IPG
17:51:51 <andythenorth> I must be making a web app
17:51:57 <andythenorth> 50% of my code is to do with sort order
17:53:36 <Eddi|zuHause> sorting is one of the most common jobs in computer science for a reason
17:56:40 <andythenorth> maybe I should do something useful instead :P
17:58:36 <andythenorth> links at the top right, which is more useful: "Source Repository" or "Translate FIRS" ?
17:59:42 <KBuris|Work> Just looked at that... Does FIRS not support the Coal -> Power Plant line?
18:01:15 <frosch123> andythenorth: add the cargo colour as colour :p
18:01:43 <andythenorth> appropriate for NUTS though
18:01:47 <Eddi|zuHause> KBuris|Work: allegedly, power plants are boring :p
18:02:06 <andythenorth> allegedly you could add your own in an add-on grf :P
18:02:07 <andythenorth> V453000: where is your auto-generated documentation?
18:02:21 <andythenorth> nobody cared enough to make a stupidly simple grf that turns back on default power plant :P
18:02:29 <frosch123> anyway, i always wonder whether there is any schema behind industry map colours
18:02:32 <frosch123> is there in firs? :)
18:02:55 <andythenorth> I tried to keep original colours for copies of original industries
18:03:04 <andythenorth> then I try to make each colour legible on the map
18:03:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i think ECS tried to use colour groups per vector
18:03:25 <andythenorth> I try to make forests green, mines brown / black etc
18:03:37 <andythenorth> town industries have to be yellow or white, or they can't be seen
18:03:38 <frosch123> [19:58] <andythenorth> links at the top right, which is more useful: "Source Repository" or "Translate FIRS" ? <- add a "contribute" link, which links to the devzone page, which then links to repository or translations
18:04:20 <frosch123> also replace "discuss" with "flame"?
18:04:40 <andythenorth> 'request features'
18:05:32 <andythenorth> I could randomise the text
18:05:37 <V453000> andythenorth: I autogenerate it manually :P
18:05:44 <andythenorth> V453000: lame :)
18:05:49 <KBuris|Work> I'll be honest, I tend to play with either vanilla or OpenTTD+ Industries, and I like to set up a Coal-Power and a Diamonds/Gold-Bank line first, to set myself up early and then expand into stuff like subsidies and interesting station constructions.
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18:07:12 <frosch123> KBuris|Work: we only play firs/nuts/nocargoal :p
18:09:21 <planetmaker> tehehe. Nearly true for recent times :D
18:10:08 <frosch123> though we got two new ideas for gs
18:10:23 <frosch123> though i still doubt the vehicle thingie has replayability
18:12:21 <planetmaker> hm, what's the new ideas?
18:12:35 <frosch123> you weren't around?
18:12:53 <KBuris|Work> Well, as long as you leave it in for the rest of us.
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18:13:35 <frosch123> 1) build at least one vehicle of every engine type, and make them do at least twice the profit compared to running cost
18:14:14 <planetmaker> I was not around then, it seems...
18:14:21 <planetmaker> or I have a faulty memory :D
18:14:41 <frosch123> 2) allcargoal: transport as much cargos as possible, the cargotype with the lowest amount per quarter decides for the medal
18:15:18 <planetmaker> allcargoal sounds fun :-)
18:15:33 <planetmaker> but needs serious thinking on balancing with e.g. default cargos
18:15:41 <planetmaker> you hardly can transport as much gold as passangers
18:16:00 <frosch123> that's exactly the idea behind it :)
18:16:09 <frosch123> it removes the randomness of nocargoal
18:16:27 <frosch123> and makes the goals for deterministically
18:16:41 <planetmaker> that makes it the same thing every time, though: get all gold moved. And connect one of every other industry
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18:18:53 <frosch123> planetmaker: well, maybe none of the ideas are good :p
18:19:21 <andythenorth> (operating profit)
18:19:37 <andythenorth> frosch123: I think SV is under-played
18:19:53 <andythenorth> it encourages a wider range of cargo types, not just 3 like NCG
18:20:14 <planetmaker> frosch123, the idea with the engines might actually
18:20:23 <andythenorth> it also makes for one insane route-building problem in a town
18:20:30 <planetmaker> and if it's only to play test the vehicle NewGRF. For a sane balancing of them
18:20:42 <frosch123> hmm... min. profit... how about: maximize profit, while minimizing profit of the most profitable vehicle? :p
18:21:00 <frosch123> should result in mass-transfer stuff :o
18:21:23 <planetmaker> which in itself is fun :-)
18:22:19 <frosch123> [20:20] <planetmaker> and if it's only to play test the vehicle NewGRF. For a sane balancing of them <- yeah, someone has the idea to make it a requirement to be allowed to upload stuff to bananas :p
18:24:29 <andythenorth> frosch123: interesting
18:25:02 <Eddi|zuHause> random idea: subsidies should be generated before game start, so you can get some with your initial line, instead of wait for them to appear
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18:31:07 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: since it's only the preprocessor, there shouldn't have been any significant changes to that in the last 30 years
18:33:10 <planetmaker> yeah. Shouldn't matter
18:33:11 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: except that all nfo grf fail to compile with gcc 4.6
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18:33:40 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: why does every ID end with a "d"?
18:33:48 <alandarev> can I Start the gamescript in the game if it crashed?
18:33:55 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: "decimal"
18:33:56 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: because they're not h?
18:34:00 <alandarev> dbg: [script] The script died unexpectedly.
18:34:01 <alandarev> One of the running scripts crashed. Please report this to the script author with a screenshot of the AI/Game Script Debug Window
18:34:07 <alandarev> and since it is dedicated server I can't see anything
18:34:37 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think that's a very uncommno format
18:34:40 <frosch123> alandarev: you might try loading an autosave, where it did not yet crash
18:35:06 <alandarev> frosch123: that is the problem, it was workign fine, but it crashes if i use Save games :( (City Builder)
18:35:13 <Eddi|zuHause> alandarev: there may be an ai debuglevel you can set
18:35:18 <andythenorth> maybe I should translate them to hex?
18:35:54 <alandarev> Eddi|zuHause: no idea
18:36:17 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: just put "dec" in the column title, instead of repeating it on every entry
18:37:12 <andythenorth> I wouldn't have known what that was tbh
18:37:17 <andythenorth> when I started writing newgrf
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18:46:03 <andythenorth> time to do something else
18:51:26 <planetmaker> andythenorth, nmlc 0.3
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19:15:20 * andythenorth is trying to write translation instructions
19:17:04 <frosch123> wow, he moved the whole of iran into medieval?
19:21:42 <planetmaker> alandarev, new things are not created by magic from thin air? :-(
19:22:26 * Alberth hopes so very much in being wrong
19:23:16 <Alberth> although I don't care about 32bpp at all
19:23:40 <planetmaker> I believe it's not used to what could be done with it yet.
19:23:52 <planetmaker> currently as we have it put to use, it's not much of a gain
19:24:32 <Alberth> that's likely, people have to adjust in how to use the new possibilities
19:31:45 <planetmaker> I want to mark German as 'up to date' D
19:31:59 <frosch123> andythenorth: maybe link to a translation howto page?
19:32:00 <Alberth> andythenorth: the bold "Or" is somewhat weird, it looks a lot like the next item
19:38:04 <frosch123> oh, that one looks better
19:38:10 <andythenorth> Alberth: we need to ship that app :)
19:38:13 <frosch123> the other two are more for devs
19:38:13 <andythenorth> then I can just link to it
19:48:37 <Alberth> yes. Do you want new translations mostly? The "Get Base Language File" button is very tempty to push :)
19:49:41 <planetmaker> hm... get browser locale and link to the appropriate status report :D
19:49:48 <planetmaker> with a similarily big blue button :-)
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19:51:35 <andythenorth> I actually want updates to existing translations
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19:51:46 <andythenorth> currently every time I compile I am spammed by 30 warnings
19:51:54 <andythenorth> which irritates me immensely
19:52:11 <Supercheese> Any way to tell the compiler, "duplicate English strings are purposely missing, ignore"?
19:52:18 * andythenorth is tempted to delete some translations :P
19:52:21 <planetmaker> nml needs a switch for --ignore-lang-warnings?
19:53:04 <planetmaker> Supercheese, how can duplicate strings be missing?
19:53:31 <Supercheese> Base UK_English strings that do not require translating for US_English are omitted in the US_English file
19:53:55 <Supercheese> yet that probably throws a compiler warning
19:56:04 <planetmaker> those few bytes don't hurt
19:56:19 <andythenorth> I told him off for that ;)
19:56:30 <Supercheese> I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't T_T
19:56:48 <planetmaker> catch 22, classical example
20:06:14 <Alberth> I doubt it's a warning, more likely it is a true error in the translation
20:07:48 <planetmaker> yes. But it's a warning in nmlc. At least currently
20:08:40 <frosch123> [21:51] <andythenorth> currently every time I compile I am spammed by 30 warnings <- weren't you into colouring?
20:08:44 <frosch123> make them black on black
20:09:03 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe the lang format needs a way to tell "use STR_XXX from <language>"
20:09:06 <andythenorth> should I commit *that* to nml? :P
20:09:19 <andythenorth> (black on black)
20:09:26 <Eddi|zuHause> not entirely sure what that would solve, though
20:11:43 <Alberth> planetmaker: which is ok imho; nml decides to ignore given translations, and warns that it does that
20:18:44 <andythenorth> right, what next? o_O
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20:20:17 <andythenorth> you don't want my code, really
20:20:44 <frosch123> so, we need to keep on trying to trick zuu and albert into it :)
20:20:58 <andythenorth> what tricks are there?
20:21:12 <andythenorth> Alberth: what stops eints being in production? Testing? User management?
20:21:38 <frosch123> Supercheese: ottd is not about making money :p
20:21:41 <Alberth> andythenorth: it needs a coupling to red mine
20:21:52 <Rubidium> after all, time = money ;)
20:21:57 <frosch123> women = root of all evil
20:22:31 <frosch123> i skipped the steps in between, i assume you all know them :)
20:23:14 <andythenorth> Alberth: redmine for...? User authentication?
20:23:17 <Alberth> andythenorth: verifying user credentials, so you have control who translates your strings from red mine :)
20:23:26 <Supercheese> blah, Firefox update
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20:24:22 <Alberth> FF update needs quitting irc? :o
20:24:37 <andythenorth> redmine can act as an SSO provider? Or we use apache auth or something?
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20:25:28 <Alberth> more likely, you can access its db :D
20:27:58 <Alberth> needs a few simple functions in a new webtranslate/users/redmine.py file, and hookup in webtranslate/users/__init__.py
20:28:05 <frosch123> andythenorth: redmine stores passwords as sha1 hash
20:28:18 <frosch123> so you need to compute the checksum ,and query the db to compare
20:29:01 <andythenorth> we can't just authenticate on eints if you're authenticated on redmine?
20:29:02 <frosch123> sounds easy, but unfortuantelly you need quite some infrastructure for testing :)
20:29:14 * andythenorth has severe distrust of SSO
20:30:18 <Alberth> almost, but too many users starting with 'f' here :p
20:32:14 <Alberth> I don't make the rules at openttdcoop :)
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20:34:53 <andythenorth> he's too fast for me
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20:37:59 <Eddi|zuHause> <Alberth> FF update needs quitting irc? :o <-- only if you're silly enough to use firefox plugins for chatting
20:54:59 <Kjetil> why would you put irc in your browser ?
20:55:19 <Zuu> The FIRS doc website is impressive.
20:56:15 <Zuu> Kjetil: Because you can, or because you don't want to install a stand alone client.
20:56:44 <andythenorth> I had for a long time in mind generating the docs from the code
20:56:54 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
21:05:58 <Eddi|zuHause> Kjetil: some people put whole OSes in the browser
21:12:08 <Kjetil> Eddi|zuHause: but why ?
21:12:23 <Kjetil> haven't they heard about multitasking ? :P
21:12:23 <Eddi|zuHause> because they're silly?
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23:20:26 <FastNinja> nmlc.exe seems very unhappy with any english.lng file I use. I get errors such as: nmlc ERROR: Language file "lang\english.lng": The default language file contains non-utf8 characters. and after I change to utf-8: nmlc ERROR: "lang\english.lng", line 1: Line has no ':' delimiter. Totally new to this, what am I missing?
23:23:01 <Eddi|zuHause> FastNinja: so, can you actually post your file, or do we have to use our crystal balls?
23:26:03 <FastNinja> It is the english.lng file from the latest nightly build
23:32:00 <Eddi|zuHause> you cannot use openttd .lng files
23:33:14 <FastNinja> Oh. So I am supposed to write my own?
23:33:42 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. with at least your GRF name and GRF description in them
23:38:02 <Eddi|zuHause> looks like this is not banned ;)
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23:54:57 <Eddi|zuHause> haha, the end is great :p
23:55:37 <Supercheese> Too bad it was Tetris and not Tic Tac Toe
23:56:52 <Eddi|zuHause> tic tac toe is an easily fully computed game
23:57:09 <Eddi|zuHause> there are only like 3^9 possible game states
23:57:54 <Eddi|zuHause> so throwing an adaptive algorithm like this onto it would probably be boring
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