IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-04-10
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07:10:39 <andythenorth> could the newgrf debug window be marked dirty every time a cb runs?
07:10:45 <andythenorth> or at least, more frequently?
07:11:22 * andythenorth wasted 10 mins trying to debug a non-thing, because the update on persistent storage values is...intermittent :)
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08:02:02 <V453000> moo I didnt even ever use the debug window :D
08:18:01 <andythenorth> helps debug stuff :P
08:18:08 <andythenorth> like supplies being broken :P
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12:44:16 <HellTiger> there is a creepy uboot driving around.
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15:26:47 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25175 /trunk/src/lang (27 files in 2 dirs) (2013-04-10 15:26:40 UTC)
15:26:48 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
15:26:49 <DorpsGek> faroese - 243 changes by FastNinja
15:28:21 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r25176 /trunk (6 files in 3 dirs) (2013-04-10 15:28:15 UTC)
15:28:22 <DorpsGek> -Feature: Faroese translation
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15:50:35 * peter1139 grumbles at things that use hg instead of git :S
15:51:33 <goodger> it's weird how they were developed concurrently and independently
15:54:07 <peter1139> i might just patch against the last release
15:56:49 <peter1139> branches seem a little different
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17:57:04 <alandarev> can I change the name of a town through a server console?
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17:59:27 <V453000> you cant change the name of a town in a multiplayer game
17:59:51 <V453000> only upon town funding
18:03:18 <planetmaker> andythenorth, FISH does not seem to set version and minimum required version for the grf and compatibility purposes?
18:03:47 <andythenorth> FISH or new FISH? o_O
18:06:43 <planetmaker> likely the old(er) one. It creates issues with not having the exact same version. Especially for people who test and play with nightly builds
18:09:01 <planetmaker> I'm currently generating the md5sum of every revision of that repo :-P
18:09:33 <planetmaker> takes a bit time with 1k revisions :D
18:09:59 <Rubidium> I'd say try bisecting, but that won't work either ;)
18:10:28 <Eddi|zuHause> for i in $(seq 1 1000); do hg up -r $i; make; md5sum fish.grf; done;
18:11:02 <Eddi|zuHause> bisecting hash values would be funny :)
18:11:21 <planetmaker> for i in {50...1000}; do hg up $i; make remake >/dev/null && md5sum fish.grf; done | grep 'fish.grf' > file.txt
18:11:55 <planetmaker> still, that takes time to compile FISH 1000 times :D
18:12:59 <andythenorth> has the md5 and the grf
18:13:03 <Eddi|zuHause> well, just run it, and sleep over the results
18:13:13 <Eddi|zuHause> or parallelize it in "the cloud" :)
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18:13:37 <planetmaker> andythenorth, yes... but we don't keep nightlies forever. Like 3 months or N versions
18:13:42 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: only of releases and recent nightlies
18:13:44 <planetmaker> with N around ... <50 or so
18:14:25 <planetmaker> otherwise we'd run out of hdd space in no time
18:14:40 <planetmaker> with all those projects
18:14:57 <planetmaker> releases is a totally different thing :-)
18:15:24 <frosch123> planetmaker: i hope you are using grfid -m :p
18:17:04 <planetmaker> problem is: if it's a somewhat recent nightly I won't succeed anyway... different NML -> different md5sum
18:17:11 <planetmaker> thus I won't succeed most likely anyway :S
18:18:02 <planetmaker> but... I'm still in revisions with NFO files :-P
18:18:07 <frosch123> fis 0.9.2 set a version though
18:18:30 <Rubidium> planetmaker: just try all revisions of NML (and grfcodec) as well
18:18:49 <Rubidium> esp. since the optimisation in grfcodec that got (un)done
18:18:54 <frosch123> planetmaker: do you have a savegame?
18:19:11 <frosch123> well, what are you searching for actually? :p
18:19:23 <Zuu> planetmaker: Why do you need the old md5sums?
18:19:54 <Rubidium> planetmaker: attempt r709
18:20:39 <planetmaker> now please tell me how you knew :-)
18:21:04 <frosch123> just looked there as well :p
18:21:52 <frosch123> it's amazing how many "M" versions are in that list actually
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18:49:15 <frosch123> Sacro: did you pass?
18:53:49 <Zuu> Sacro: There is also the sign for "farthinder" - speed bump
18:55:46 <__ln__> Sacro: i don't suppose you know what the number 'six' is in swedish?
18:56:26 <frosch123> __ln__: the same as in south germany?
19:00:40 <frosch123> "statt" = "instead of"
19:02:18 <frosch123> i wonder though whether firs affects my game
19:02:20 <Sacro> __ln__: I don't speak svdish
19:02:48 <frosch123> is that scottish or welsh?
19:19:11 <Eddi|zuHause> resistance is futile?
19:19:49 <andythenorth> so does FIRS affect your game? o_O
19:24:05 <frosch123> what did you fix? :p
19:24:30 <frosch123> you only said you changed supplies
19:24:33 <andythenorth> serious defect with supplies
19:25:17 <Eddi|zuHause> usually when andy says "fix" i assume he means "rip it out"
19:28:10 <frosch123> V453000: why is nuts 256 MiB?
19:28:15 <frosch123> did you add 32bpp or extrazoom?
19:28:48 <V453000> mh, I added a lot of recolour sprites for wagons ... will do it through code later
19:29:02 <planetmaker> do you crop sprites? nmlc -c
19:29:37 <V453000> dont know what that does
19:30:08 <V453000> idk what it does but yes :D
19:30:10 <planetmaker> cut sprites down to the needed size
19:30:21 <planetmaker> thus avoiding sprites with loads of needless blue
19:30:27 <V453000> myeah but there might be like 30-40k of them atm
19:30:43 <frosch123> planetmaker: but blue is compressed, so i would think it does not affect the filesize much
19:30:52 <V453000> if not even more, I didnt count it
19:31:42 <planetmaker> yes... not much likely.
19:33:03 <frosch123> but yeah, nuts has 108226 sprites
19:33:18 <planetmaker> @calc 26000 / 108226
19:33:18 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 0.240238020439
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19:33:30 <planetmaker> 240 bytes per sprite is not too much really
19:33:57 <planetmaker> hm... 10*24. typical vehicle size :D
19:34:20 <V453000> 70 spritegroups for all wagons, 9 loading stages per spritegroup
19:34:22 <frosch123> 102066 realsprites, 6168 pseudosprites
19:34:58 <planetmaker> that's ... a decent ratio of graphics vs. code :-)
19:35:39 <V453000> 60480 separate sprites for all cats
19:36:04 <V453000> and before that nuts had about 20 000 plus chameleons I think
19:36:15 <planetmaker> are chameleons gone?
19:36:32 <V453000> no it is just another train class with their own wagons
19:36:35 <planetmaker> productive arist :-)
19:37:04 <frosch123> V453000: did you draw them all? or is there some generating involved?
19:37:20 <V453000> draw of course but some are cloned and recoloured
19:37:42 <V453000> for example for the cats it is x12 cloned, 5000 for ships and 5000 for cats
19:37:47 <V453000> but cats are in 12 colour variants
19:38:19 <planetmaker> so... using the recolour sprites you could actually reduce sprite count for those by a factor of 11?
19:38:46 <V453000> for those it would indeed work as I just recoloured those
19:38:48 <frosch123> planetmaker: i wonder whether nml duplicates some sprites
19:39:12 <planetmaker> frosch123, it might. For instance to get spritesets of equal size when required
19:39:26 <planetmaker> though... they should be empty sprites
19:40:25 <frosch123> well, how did v draw 102066 sprites by hand, in one year? :p
19:40:30 <DorpsGek> frosch123: 279.632876712
19:40:45 <V453000> as I said, it is reduced a lot by multipliers of some
19:40:46 <frosch123> @calc 102066 / 365 / 8
19:40:46 <DorpsGek> frosch123: 34.954109589
19:41:16 <V453000> but yes I wouldnt say I am slacking :P
19:41:39 <frosch123> andythenorth: everything is still "gung ho", no idea what you changed :p
19:41:52 <frosch123> oh, wait, one just dropped to normal
19:42:13 <V453000> frosch123: how did you count these sprites btw?
19:42:21 <andythenorth> if the industry list was something like arable farm, coal mine, port
19:42:32 <frosch123> grep -c '\*' nuts.nfo
19:42:37 <frosch123> grep -c 'sprites' nuts.nfo
19:42:39 <andythenorth> then coal mine was using trigger values from arable farm, port was using coal mines'
19:42:52 <andythenorth> defines in the wrong order, failing silently :P
19:42:58 <V453000> hm guess not in windoze :P
19:43:19 <V453000> or does cmd have something similar to grep?
19:45:11 <planetmaker> though you can install grep on windoze
19:45:45 <frosch123> [21:42] <V453000> 108226 <- that number is easy actually, grfcodec numbers the sprites when decoding :p
19:46:19 <Alberth> but having grep standard available is so much more easy :p
19:48:00 <frosch123> V453000: anyway, nuts is the first 8bpp normal zoom grf with more graphics than nfo code :)
19:48:29 <V453000> how many lines of code is it in nfo?
19:48:42 <V453000> my nml source has 60k
19:48:49 <frosch123> with default line wrapping?
19:49:24 <V453000> idk I have some gaps there
19:49:28 <V453000> also what is line wrapping :D
19:51:47 <frosch123> hmm, paste.openttdcoop.org does not allow pasting 7.6 MiB :p
19:52:15 <frosch123> anyway, number of sprites is also about number of lines
19:52:31 <frosch123> 112829 with default line wrapping of grfcodec
19:53:17 <Zuu> <Alberth> but having grep standard available is so much more easy :p <--- true, but cygwin with grep and a few other utilities goes right after vim on my priority list of things to first install on a windows computer :-)
19:53:19 <V453000> onwards to half a million sprites! :D
19:54:01 <Alberth> Zuu: just install Linux instead :D
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19:54:38 <Zuu> Alberth: I have two linux VMs on this windows comptuer. :-)
19:55:31 <Alberth> I have 10 windows displayed at this Linux computer :p
19:55:49 <frosch123> Alberth: no fan of tabs?
19:56:17 <Alberth> with 6 desktops? who needs tabs? :)
19:57:01 <frosch123> i don't like desktop switching. it feels too rough to me
19:57:22 <frosch123> i always have to configure windows to display on all desktops and such
19:57:48 <frosch123> so i prefer one browser, one chat, one editor and one console window
19:58:03 <planetmaker> andythenorth, what does the cidre mill do, production-wise?
19:58:10 <frosch123> each with tabs, so i can switch them independently
19:58:13 <planetmaker> convert fruits to cidre?
19:58:37 <planetmaker> And what's the German translation for "cider mill"? :D
19:59:09 <Zuu> I sometimes miss multiple desktops in Windows, but I have yet to come across a implemenattion that works flawless enough to be worth using.
19:59:53 <frosch123> planetmaker: i think it's just "Kelterei"
19:59:53 <__ln__> germans don't know what cider is
20:00:41 <andythenorth> I am planning to add more detail to show how production varies in each economy
20:00:42 <Zuu> frosch123: Even if its a cider made on other fruites than apple?
20:01:04 <planetmaker> I think the definition of Cider is 'made from apples'
20:01:27 <Zuu> or .. <insert some other fruit>
20:01:31 <frosch123> Zuu: with other fruits it might be "Likör", though i am not sure. maybe there is a technical difference
20:01:50 <planetmaker> andythenorth, I still have a problem: I don't know's the name for it in German. frosch123, any suggestion?
20:01:51 <Zuu> Likör I would say is stronger than cider.
20:02:00 <planetmaker> "Weingut" trifft's nicht
20:02:09 <__ln__> Zuu: i think the <other fruit> flavors contain either apple or pear as well, otherwise it isn't cider by definition
20:02:37 <frosch123> Zuu: yeah, likely liqeur is distilled cider
20:02:40 <Zuu> __ln__: they usually contain apple to 50 % or more if not else because its cheaper.
20:03:46 <frosch123> planetmaker: "Mosterei" is apparently a word
20:04:25 <frosch123> planetmaker: "Mosterei" or "Kelterei"
20:04:33 <Zuu> Eg. Gooseberry cider is quite common here. But yes, it is probabably more apple than gooseberry and then just made to taste gooseberry.
20:05:16 <frosch123> your link is only apple
20:05:28 <planetmaker> hm... Mosterei makes juice. Not cider, no?
20:05:42 <andythenorth> proper cider is apples only :P
20:05:48 <frosch123> planetmaker: a mosterei makes most, which is cider
20:05:52 <andythenorth> that's why it's supplied by an orchard
20:05:55 <planetmaker> andythenorth, the German version of that is what I consulted... without getting more of an idea :D
20:06:06 <andythenorth> where I live, orchards grow apples only, not other new-fangled fruit
20:06:31 <frosch123> planetmaker: oh, "most" is regional :p it might also be juice :p
20:06:43 <Alberth> iirc I translated it to "fruit beer"
20:07:58 <planetmaker> Alberth, rather wine then, I think...
20:08:30 <planetmaker> I'll keep it as "Cider-Brauerei"
20:08:37 <frosch123> planetmaker: oh, the proper word is "Kelterhaus"
20:08:41 <Alberth> would be fine, andy doesn't demand a literal translation, just something that could come from an industry as depicted
20:09:55 <planetmaker> but... isn't "keltern" (also) defined as "making juice"?
20:10:12 <frosch123> but yeah, maybe just name it "Brennerei" :)
20:10:17 <planetmaker> especially of grapes
20:10:23 <frosch123> and make it produce Likör instead :)
20:10:30 <frosch123> tastes better anyway
20:10:39 <frosch123> who drinks eppelvoi?
20:11:06 <Alberth> important point for an industry set to have tasty products :)
20:11:54 <frosch123> hazelnut liqueur is the only hazelnut product, which i do not react allergic to :)
20:12:15 <V453000> frosch is allergic to nuts
20:12:21 <frosch123> though i first had to figure out that you could produce liqueur from hazelnuts
20:12:29 <frosch123> V453000: only hazel
20:13:35 <planetmaker> hm, did you eat of the r25k cake? Or did I put almond in it?
20:14:07 <frosch123> and there is no danger in me accidentially eating stuff with hazelnut
20:14:07 <Zuu> According to swedish wikipedia, the only requirement for something to be called Cider here is: 1) the alochol comes from apples or pears. 2) at least 15% of the cider should be based on fruit juice.
20:14:12 <frosch123> i can smell it from 30 cm distance
20:15:53 <Zuu> planetmaker: have you made a r25k cake?
20:17:19 <frosch123> [22:12] <V453000> frosch is allergic to nuts <- oh, damn, i did not get that reference :o
20:20:20 <planetmaker> General store... = Laden?
20:20:26 <planetmaker> or more specific?
20:20:55 <frosch123> let's see what it looks like
20:21:27 <planetmaker> yeah... "Laden" is fine
20:21:58 <andythenorth> I want to connect the docs and the translator :P
20:22:02 <andythenorth> 'translate this'
20:22:09 <frosch123> which economy has a general store?
20:22:46 <planetmaker> that'd be over-engineered, andythenorth ;-)
20:22:54 <Rubidium> frosch123: the general one?
20:23:05 <frosch123> basic temp hat it, firs did not have it
20:23:24 <frosch123> planetmaker: maybe "Kaufladen"
20:23:46 <planetmaker> I had that actually first. Somehow I don't like it as much as just "Laden"
20:23:46 <frosch123> "Laden" sounds weird for a specific thing
20:24:03 <frosch123> well, it has some child game taste :)
20:24:47 <Zuu> andythenorth: regarding translator, have you came anywhere on the web translator for NewGRFs?
20:25:41 <planetmaker> Zuu, checkout eints project on devzone
20:26:07 <Zuu> If the tutorial ever is going to be translated (a huge task), it would need something to keep track of subsequent changes in english.txt and which strings in the translations that needs to be updated etc.
20:26:53 <planetmaker> apropros eints...
20:27:04 <frosch123> Zuu: afaik ammler set up a new virtual server on devzone for eints
20:27:05 <Alberth> Zuu: it needs an interface to Red Mine
20:27:25 <frosch123> so, it feels like it is approaching production stage :)
20:29:54 <Alberth> frosch123: for some values of 'workable' it is, there is a lot of room for improvements
20:30:07 <planetmaker> I guess it's a matter of "close. Implemented" :D
20:30:38 <Alberth> planetmaker: well, eints doesn't show it
20:30:50 <planetmaker> but yes, like that. Sorry, I didn't check. But I was annoyed when I recently needed to verify translations for OpenTTD itself
20:30:53 <Alberth> and I somewhat wonder how many people will understand it
20:31:15 <planetmaker> uhm... I think that's intuitive
20:31:23 <Alberth> planetmaker: how did you think I came up with that solution? :)
20:31:27 <planetmaker> especially as it says 'current source' and 'old source'
20:32:03 <Alberth> the data is available, that's no problem
20:32:41 <Alberth> I was wondering about the new translator format though, where would you leave "similar translations" in such a file?
20:33:10 <planetmaker> having it shown similar to what you just linked is very helpful IMHO
20:33:28 <planetmaker> what do you mean with your last question, can you elaborate?
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20:33:48 <Alberth> I mean that set of other strings that is displayed in WT
20:34:14 <Alberth> or "related strings" or whatever it is called
20:34:48 <Alberth> ie the new format would currently only contain strings that need to be worked on
20:34:51 <planetmaker> not sure they need to be "left" anywhere, but you could just get them by means of grep from the current file
20:35:09 <planetmaker> that's afaik about what WT does, too
20:35:29 <planetmaker> not sure how the choice on the search phrases is done, though
20:35:35 <Alberth> that would imply a translator needs to download a copy of the language file of his language as well
20:35:51 <Alberth> I am sure someone could tell us :)
20:36:01 <planetmaker> yes... but eints does have that, no?
20:36:16 <planetmaker> the translator itself does not need that, if eints makes a choice
20:36:41 <Alberth> sure, but it defeats the point of the translator file format somewhat
20:37:38 * Alberth is thinking about off-line translation options
20:37:59 <planetmaker> for that you don't need it. Or you provide (additionally) the whole file
20:38:39 <Alberth> that seems the best solution so far
20:41:19 <frosch123> hmm, would it be clever to not use string ids (STR_xxx) for off-line translations, but instead the original string as key value?
20:41:36 <frosch123> then you would only import translations for which the original string did not change
20:42:15 <frosch123> hmm, or add a revision to the string id?
20:43:13 <frosch123> STR_IND_LUMBER_YARD@2128 :Houtwerkplaats
20:44:45 <Alberth> I think it should give 3 ini-like lines: source text, current translation, and an empty new translation
20:45:20 <frosch123> that sounds like gnu gettext po files :)
20:45:48 <frosch123> they also contain keywords like "fuzzy"
20:45:56 <frosch123> when the original string changed
20:46:38 <Alberth> add a new translation into the latter line, and send it back; eints verifies that you translated the current string, and were not beaten by another translator
20:46:48 <Alberth> I call that 'outdated' :)
20:46:58 <planetmaker> what's the policy on conflicting translations for the same thing? :-)
20:47:03 <planetmaker> if another was faster?
20:47:30 <frosch123> you could also put the export revision at the top of the file
20:47:47 <Alberth> then it rejects your translation saying it is old, and gives you a new set of strings
20:48:37 <Alberth> or at least it should do that :)
20:49:04 <Alberth> with just language files, you don't have connections between base language and translation texts
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