IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-03-16
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00:55:09 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: it will be done as soon as I get the patch :-)
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03:43:25 <Dewin> Wow, I still have this IRC channel saved. Convenient.
03:49:01 <Dewin> I'm getting into ottd again and decide I wanted to play in trunk... but have a few patches I miss, and a few improvements I've thought about making. So I'm diving in source at the moment, and *think* I have a working cargodist + automatic timetable/separation build.
03:51:04 <Dewin> I'm pondering the idea of some more advanced options for vehicle orders, namely the idea for a vehicle to force another vehicle to depart a station early under some circumstances. Then I saw the "REF_ORDER (all REFs are currently limited to 16 bits!!)" comment on the ORder struct -- since the struct is quite clearly more than 16 bits wide, I'm assuming that refers to the number of orders and not how much information they contain?
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07:40:14 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: frosch123 was last seen in #openttd 10 hours, 27 minutes, and 5 seconds ago: <frosch123> night
07:44:15 * andythenorth ponders decoupling breakdowns and servicing
07:44:30 <andythenorth> choosing vehicle model according to reliability is an interesting strategic choice
07:45:01 <andythenorth> managing servicing is tedious micro-management
07:45:20 <andythenorth> not helped by servicing being broken for RVs and trains
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08:33:28 <Flygon> One thing's always bothered me
08:33:38 <Flygon> Signalling in OpenTTD not having 'moving block' type signalling
08:34:17 <Flygon> Or: The signalling that doesn't use physical signalling, but in-cab, and is automatically calculated for distances between trains... uh, hard to explain
08:34:22 <Flygon> But I know real-world systems use it
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08:45:04 <peter1138> it doesn't make much sense game-play wise though
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09:47:14 <Thomas> can anybody tells me, what i have to do, that my planes are not crashing so fast?
09:49:37 <Thomas> it was two times a ffp dart...
09:52:05 <planetmaker> don't have large planes land on small airports (communter, small)
09:55:32 <Thomas> ahhh ok, that could be possible, thanks...
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17:24:34 <frosch123> client side authentication?
17:32:47 <MNIM> now it would be nice if all this commotion over SC2013 would cause EA execs to reconsider their strategy.
17:32:55 <MNIM> ...but sadly they most likely will not
17:36:19 <__ln__> i demand online-drm for openttd
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17:37:39 <MNIM> I demand lots of beer and pretty wenches to serve my needs
17:38:07 <Eddi|zuHause> i have wrenches at best
17:39:14 <MNIM> well I have wrenches as well, that is not the issue >.>
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18:45:28 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25088 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2013-03-16 18:45:20 UTC)
18:45:29 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:30 <DorpsGek> english_AU - 8 changes by mrtux
18:45:31 <DorpsGek> finnish - 2 changes by jpx_
18:45:32 <DorpsGek> serbian - 27 changes by ivan_mile
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19:15:48 <andythenorth> frosch123: you play with breakdowns on, right?
19:16:13 <andythenorth> I don't, trying to figure out why.
19:16:17 <frosch123> so does albert afaik :)
19:16:22 <andythenorth> no breakdowns means vehicle reliability is meaningless
19:16:40 <andythenorth> meaningless vehicle reliability loses a point of differentiation for newgrf vehicle sets
19:16:45 <frosch123> reliabilty makes you reconsider your engine choices every game
19:17:17 <andythenorth> but not in my game :P
19:17:25 <Alberth> on the other hand, V considers playing with NUTS with breakdown on breaks the idea of the NewGRF
19:18:16 <frosch123> it just randomly limits your engine choices
19:18:25 <Alberth> we don't consider many of the vehicles, afaik
19:18:43 <V453000> I didnt say that, but I think breakdowns are so majorly broken that your whole network basically jams by default
19:18:43 <frosch123> so, you have to decide between an older model of the most suited engine class or whether using a different engine class
19:19:18 <frosch123> well, it reduced the capacity of your network
19:19:34 <frosch123> but that is exactly what your choice on the engine affects
19:19:48 <V453000> yeah which is a problem because the game loses any importance on details on the network and improving your construction, because everything will jam anyway
19:19:52 <frosch123> the only thing which breakdowns make pointless are engine previews :)
19:19:58 <V453000> you just have to provide stupid amount of rails with low train density :)
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19:21:27 <Alberth> V453000: indeed, I rememberered wrong
19:22:01 <Alberth> it was about weight multipliers
19:22:09 <frosch123> andythenorth: well, i guess if we add randomised grf parameters (fs#eddi), one can use them to randomise vehicle statistics
19:22:30 <V453000> I think it mentioned breakdowns somewhere too, but yeah multipliers indeed defeat the purpose of fragile cargo classes
19:22:35 <frosch123> which would achieve almost the same goal as reliability does, just without breakdowns
19:23:46 <frosch123> i guess with multipliers you are right when using nuts
19:23:59 <frosch123> it's more for other train sets which have no strong/fast engines
19:24:08 <frosch123> and where you have to do everythnig via multiple engines
19:24:36 <frosch123> i am just to used to it, to disable it :p
19:25:24 <V453000> well yeah but that is because "other train sets" have broken stats
19:25:33 <V453000> so the multipliers indeed can "fix" them
19:26:21 <V453000> but whenever the train set is made with at least some logic for choice of engines like UKRS or obviously NUTS, multipliers only hurt there imo
19:37:13 <Eddi|zuHause> the freight multiplier was from when train length was limited to 5 tiles
19:38:03 <V453000> I rarely use trains longer than 5 tiles anyway :P
19:38:25 <V453000> if you have weak fast trains, they obviously will completely break with multipliers, even with 2
19:38:47 <Eddi|zuHause> well, the multiplier doesn't apply to passengers
19:38:55 <Eddi|zuHause> which is 90% of fast trains
19:39:54 <Eddi|zuHause> anyone fix grfcodec yet?
19:40:11 <V453000> not in NUTS :) and it is boring not to have fast cargo trains tbh
19:43:40 <Eddi|zuHause> different topic: is there a way for nml internal parameters (the ones you define by "x = blah" statements) to be bitstuffed into one grf parameter?
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19:56:45 <andythenorth> so I turn off breakdowns because setting up servicing is really not fun
19:57:10 <andythenorth> I don't mind the vehicle jams
19:57:37 <frosch123> setting up servicing is easy
19:57:48 <frosch123> you just need to disable the service interval
19:57:52 <V453000> honestly if it was possible to make trains never break down with good enough servicing, it would have been fun
19:57:54 <frosch123> (i.e. set it to 800 days)
19:57:57 <V453000> but getting no reward is no fun
19:58:26 <andythenorth> frosch123: what happens in that case?
19:58:36 <andythenorth> doesn't reliability simply fall to 0%?
19:58:50 <frosch123> you can force the servicing at specific locations
19:58:55 <frosch123> instead of specific times
19:58:59 <andythenorth> that's what I find boring
19:59:04 <andythenorth> having to add servicing orders
19:59:20 <frosch123> for trains you do not have to use orders
19:59:29 <frosch123> you can just force them into depots along the way
19:59:34 <andythenorth> but the performance with PBS is sub-optimal :P
19:59:45 <andythenorth> I don't like the depot force trick :P
19:59:45 <V453000> anytime train goes to depot it is serviced
19:59:58 <V453000> ye, well breakdowns == bad :P
20:00:48 <andythenorth> do road vehicles service at all without explicit orders?
20:00:57 <andythenorth> mine seem to have real trouble with it :P
20:01:22 <V453000> code HEQS as trains to make sure
20:03:18 <andythenorth> can I keep breakdowns, and turn off servicing? o_O
20:03:24 <andythenorth> fixed reliability, no decay
20:04:50 <V453000> I think if you set servicing inverval to 0 then it is never
20:06:17 <frosch123> yeah, there was that annomaly
20:06:30 <frosch123> andythenorth: afaik fish breaks servicing like that
20:06:59 <V453000> if your interval is set to never, vehicles will not autoreplace
20:07:04 <V453000> unless forced to depot
20:08:00 <V453000> I do the vice versa case - I have servicing interval on 5 days with no breakdowns, therefore when pushing autoreplace button, they always want to autoreplace and dont have to wait for next servicing
20:11:11 <andythenorth> and you have signals everywhere?
20:16:56 <V453000> what do you mean by that
20:17:53 <frosch123> andy encounters the issue that in many pbs layouts path costs are too high
20:18:06 <frosch123> so vehicles never consider a depot near enough to go to it for servicing
20:18:49 <frosch123> once a vehicle reseves a path it follows it
20:19:09 <frosch123> so all tiles from the pbs to the junction for the depot count towards the path
20:19:17 <frosch123> which is different from non-pbs
20:19:42 <frosch123> also i believe at some point pbs caused the red signal penalty, though pbs are always red :p
20:19:46 <frosch123> but maybe that was fixed
20:20:59 <frosch123> anyway, both only affect players which build incorrect pbs junctions :)
20:21:08 <frosch123> with signals behind junctions, and not in front of them
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20:45:53 <andythenorth> yeah the pbs depot issue bugs me
20:50:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i've never had a pbs depot issue
20:50:36 <andythenorth> you signal in front of them?
20:51:17 <Eddi|zuHause> we should have NewBreakdowns :)
20:51:27 <andythenorth> you won't see the issue on two track main-lines
20:51:33 <andythenorth> only single track stuff usually
20:51:39 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i don't service :)
20:51:56 <andythenorth> pikka choo hi hi. Breakdowns on in your games?
20:56:46 <andythenorth> maybe I should set reliability decay to 0
20:57:02 <andythenorth> until the model life is up
20:57:58 <V453000> or disable the newGRF when breakdowns are on :evil:
21:00:14 <andythenorth> I like breakdowns ;)
21:01:40 <andythenorth> Pikka: do you do anything interesting with reliability?
21:02:01 <V453000> like taking it to the zoo?
21:02:40 <andythenorth> where is multiplayer game at?
21:02:42 <V453000> too bad reliability doesnt quite combine with going out for beer
21:02:43 <andythenorth> I have 1hr to kill
21:02:59 <Pikka> I changed the decay a bit in my older sets but I think I'll probably leave it at 20 for mostly everything from now on
21:03:05 <V453000> our Welcome Server is pretty much always active andythenorth
21:03:10 <Pikka> it's too small an effect to be worthwhile
21:03:35 * Pikka no play, got to go in a bit
21:04:02 <andythenorth> I am thinking about vehicles which are fast and cheap and stuff, but 50% unreliable :P
21:16:44 <Pikka> and how do you balance it for the 95% of people who play with breakdowns off, andy? :)
21:22:21 <andythenorth> the answer then is just have fewer vehicles
21:48:38 <Snail> you mean most ppl play with breakdowns off???
21:52:30 <andythenorth> we have no idea :P
21:53:04 <Snail> haha, this means I'm wasting my time trying to set a realistic reliability decay :p
21:54:46 <andythenorth> most properties are pointless afaict
21:55:02 <andythenorth> speed, power, capacity are the only useful ones
21:55:15 <andythenorth> and power is just a factor of speed
21:55:21 <andythenorth> so capacity and speed only
21:58:37 <andythenorth> eh so what's the smallest useful truck size?
21:59:35 <andythenorth> size / capacity /s :P
21:59:44 <andythenorth> V453000: I keep considering a vehicle 'truck convoy'
21:59:52 <andythenorth> saves effort on building
22:00:27 <V453000> I dont really know, I am always trying to come out of the "standard" which is to me most of newGRFs and mainly original stuff
22:01:03 <andythenorth> you should do a plane set
22:04:04 <V453000> that is 99.8% likely to never happen
22:05:07 <andythenorth> would you put a €5k bet on it? o_O
22:05:53 <V453000> seriously planes are even more dumb than ships
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22:09:15 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: that still means every 500th GRF you make will be a plane set :p
22:09:42 <andythenorth> V453000: write a grf generator
22:10:57 <V453000> and I hoped my newGRF clearly stated it is aimed to make sense :(
22:12:03 <andythenorth> BANDIT can have a capacity multiplier param
22:12:11 <andythenorth> that will solve all evil
22:13:35 <andythenorth> 1x, 1.5x, 2x real-life capacity
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22:17:30 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, except you shouldn't call it "real-life"
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23:04:59 <andythenorth> trucks at 14t, 30t, 42t
23:05:09 <andythenorth> and silly road trains at 78t and 165t
23:05:32 <andythenorth> models change every 25 years or so, 1900-2000
23:07:27 <andythenorth> not even unrealistic :o
23:07:38 <V453000> I didnt ask about the R word :P
23:07:50 <andythenorth> 4 trailers, lots of tyres
23:07:53 <V453000> why is R so close to F
23:08:07 <andythenorth> has to be close to something
23:08:12 <TinoDidriksen> To slow down typing.
23:08:54 <Supercheese> Well, we did switch the driving side, makes sense some words would switch as well
23:09:42 <andythenorth> wonder if I can get it done in a limit of 20 vehicles
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23:16:02 <SigHunter> so i have a trainstation at a factory that was (without noticing) also in range of a farm. the station accepts crops and cattle but somehow also delivers, though the farm is not in range anymore. how can i get rid of the "delivering" part and just make it accept again
23:16:15 <SigHunter> trains now dont unload but rather try to load there now
23:16:30 <Supercheese> You can specify "no loading"
23:16:43 <SigHunter> yes, for ~60 trains manually
23:16:43 <Supercheese> but even easier may be just to demolish that station and route trains to a new one
23:17:05 <Supercheese> You'll have to do something manually unfortunately
23:17:11 <Supercheese> nothing automatic to take care of that
23:17:15 <SigHunter> its not even my mess, its the one from a friend, but he wants me to fix it :D
23:17:27 <Supercheese> well, use shared orders if he/you aren't
23:17:27 <SigHunter> ofcourse no shared orders, groups or else :/
23:19:47 <MNIM> Isn't there a way to force a group to share orders?
23:20:22 <Supercheese> Well, there's a way to add all vehicles that share orders to a group
23:20:26 <Supercheese> not sure about vice versa
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