IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-03-08
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04:27:11 <Snail> where's andy when I need him :)
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07:52:28 <andythenorth> changing newgrfs on a running game can cause problems
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08:17:10 <andythenorth> FIRS industries cost too much to build
08:17:20 <andythenorth> cost parameter (lame?) or just fix?
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11:32:55 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I am +1 to "doesn't make sense" for parameter
11:33:09 <andythenorth> the only case is playing frosch's GS where costs need to be about 8x lower
11:33:16 <andythenorth> and that can be done with base cost mod
11:33:26 <andythenorth> GS should be able to mod base costs
11:33:38 <andythenorth> "everything just got expensive"
11:34:08 <Eddi|zuHause> "inflation script" :p
11:35:02 <andythenorth> "you achieved your first target, you have been granted a concession to build cheap industries"
11:35:07 <andythenorth> base costs per-company
11:35:31 <andythenorth> here's a funny thing
11:35:36 <andythenorth> FIRS is getting very close to 1.0
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13:02:10 <martbhell> Hi! Is it possible to save company passwords between stopping openttd1.3.0-RC2 server and starting it again? (without patching?)
13:03:11 <martbhell> Also, how do I make a save of the current map on the server and not my client?
13:06:45 <peter1138> 1) no 2) rcon save ..
13:07:40 <martbhell> i never played the original tycoon, but this game is quite awesome :)
13:09:04 <martbhell> okay, if i were to do this patching. Could people still connect with the default 1.3.0-rc2 client?
13:12:16 <martbhell> okay, ill work around it :)
13:12:51 <Eddi|zuHause> there are very few patches which will not cause desyncs if combined with unpatched clients
13:13:16 <Eddi|zuHause> and even then, the build system will mark the build as patched which will prevent unpatched clients to join
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16:21:23 <planetmaker> andythenorth, what's your NML issue (I don't want to read back 3 days)?
16:24:49 <andythenorth> planetmaker: not enough registers to handle complicated spritelayouts
16:24:56 <andythenorth> not the first time it has come up
16:25:09 <planetmaker> hm, I see. I know what you mean...
16:25:10 <andythenorth> it's a newgrf spec issue, not nml afaict
16:25:25 <andythenorth> I can see workarounds
16:25:41 <andythenorth> move back to the old-school way, using more switches
16:25:53 <andythenorth> and fewer new-fangled checks inside spritelayouts ;)
16:25:55 <planetmaker> yes and no, I think. NML reserves some... not 100% easy to change... not sure I can change. But ofc even then there's a hard newgrf limit
16:26:13 * planetmaker likes complex sprite layouts a lot though :D
16:26:21 <andythenorth> they do have advantages yes
16:26:30 <andythenorth> they are kind of neat
16:27:01 <andythenorth> I am pretty certain I can solve the FIRS case with more switches
16:27:07 <andythenorth> and repeating the spritelayout is pretty trivial
16:27:19 <planetmaker> Anyway, I see no quick way I can alleviate this issue (for you or anyone, not even myself)
16:27:34 <andythenorth> nah, I need to change the design of my code, it's fine
16:27:49 <andythenorth> I had a similar issue in nfo once, where I ran out of varaction 2 IDs
16:27:56 <andythenorth> which I also fixed by redesigning code
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17:23:34 <Alberth> find some squirrel documentation, as GS is actually just a squirrel script
17:24:30 <Alberth> constructors are the methods called when an object is created
17:24:45 <Alberth> it's really basic to how object oriented programming works
17:26:16 <kero> oh, that's a squirrel function. Yes, I should get it
17:27:17 <kero> actually, I'm *also* watching at squirrel documentation, it's just that I'm mixing discovering of squirrel and NoGo api
17:28:26 <kero> no it's fine, i'm watching at this also, in parallel :-)
17:29:04 <kero> I don't know squirrel, but I know some programming, which make it easy to understand it
17:29:14 <Alberth> I don't think it explains what a constructor is
17:29:28 <kero> gonna search. Thank you anyway
17:30:09 <Alberth> object oriented programming is a good starting point
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17:58:55 <Alberth> the world welcomes you
17:59:10 <Superuser> I was imitating K&R
18:04:23 <planetmaker> :-) I would have liked today also run superuser... "Your train has been cancelled due to an engine failure"
18:04:30 <Superuser> What does #openttd think of my proposals to improve the original English strings of OpenTTD? These are not necessarily proposals by the way, they may just be queries http://is.gd/mynpUE
18:04:39 <Superuser> damn it took me long to type that
18:04:50 <planetmaker> that train was supposed to *start* in that station I wanted to board it
18:05:10 <Superuser> you forgot to run sudo
18:05:21 <Superuser> you should type sudo !! or sudo bang bang afterwards ;)
18:07:31 <planetmaker> not every local authority is a city. Cities are special in OpenTTD
18:07:54 <Superuser> Really? That is egg-celent
18:08:03 <Superuser> just the answer I was looking for
18:08:06 <Superuser> what about the last one
18:08:09 <planetmaker> {G 0} is iirc gender selection
18:08:22 <__ln__> should OpenTTD made require Internet connection to a server even in single player?
18:08:35 <Alberth> but you are already a super user :)
18:08:36 <__ln__> it's the new trend in this game genre
18:08:59 <planetmaker> __ln__, yes. And require payment of 1ct per 5 minutes to my bank account
18:09:26 <Alberth> as soon as we have finished that deal with the ISP
18:11:09 <Alberth> Superuser: it's so secret it needs encryption?
18:12:10 <Superuser> well, it probably doesn't require it in this case but the idea is that a) a record won't be kept so it gives OTTD a bad name and b) secure pastebins should be more popular
18:13:19 <Alberth> right, like it not already in our public repository for ages :p
18:13:59 <Alberth> but fyi, I am not going to enable Javascript just for a paste bin
18:14:40 <planetmaker> certainly not safer anyway ;-)
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18:17:35 <Superuser> >JavaScript still disabled
18:21:55 <Alberth> I fail to see the need for a turing complete programming language for reading text :)
18:22:17 <planetmaker> and yes, IIRC you can add plurals to 'reserved'.
18:23:04 <planetmaker> but not 100% sure :-)
18:23:19 <planetmaker> in any case, web translator will complain, if you do but you can't
18:24:09 <planetmaker> wtf... it's getting wintery again? I removed my warm fur from my jacket at 20°C in Brussels... brrr
18:26:59 <planetmaker> game and ai scripts are written in squirrel
18:27:23 <Superuser> it's a shame mruby wasn't around at the time
18:28:09 <planetmaker> and OpenTTD provides an API for them. Yes, rubi was around...
18:28:14 <Superuser> gives you that feel-good feeling that sole masturbation just can't provide
18:28:36 <Superuser> no, not Ruby, mruby, a version for embedding easily into C
18:29:31 <planetmaker> Superuser, and why don't you make a patch?
18:30:34 <Superuser> because my familiarity with the codebase is precisely null
18:30:50 <planetmaker> src/lang/english.txt
18:31:18 <Superuser> nothing else needed to change?
18:31:21 <Alberth> for the english language, yes
18:32:05 <Alberth> all other changes are handled by automagic scripts
18:33:03 <Superuser> how do you do --depth 1
18:33:13 <Superuser> kinda forgotten my hg, everything uses git now
18:33:24 <Superuser> that is I don't want to download every single changeset
18:33:43 <planetmaker> then use git, if you prefer it
18:33:47 <Eddi|zuHause> <Superuser> no, not Ruby, mruby, a version for embedding easily into C <-- so why do you think that would have been chosen over squirrel?
18:34:17 <Superuser> because Ruby is beautiful
18:35:12 <Superuser> and it doesn't use C-like syntax, I cringe a little when I see the shackles of the C anachronism applied to a modern embedded scripting language such as Squirrel
18:35:18 <planetmaker> by default hg does not allow shallow checkouts. But there's some extensions which allow it
18:35:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Superuser: but one of the reasons squirrel was chosen was its c-like syntax
18:36:16 <Superuser> but C syntax is godawful and a step back
18:37:23 <Superuser> btw I've been reading Edward Gibbon's famous magnum opus as of late, which is why I am suddenly speaking like an Enlightenment historian
18:39:36 <Pinkbeast> I suspect Gibbon rarely if ever said "btw"
18:40:55 <Alberth> Superuser: git also downloads all change sets
18:41:10 <Superuser> unless you shallow clone
18:41:47 <planetmaker> besides that, a checkout of OpenTTD is rather small in size, even a complete
18:41:55 <Alberth> afaik hg has that too
18:41:57 <planetmaker> but use SVN, if you want really shallow
18:42:45 <Superuser> okay fair enough I'll just dl the full repo
18:45:45 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25071 /trunk/src/lang (5 files) (2013-03-08 18:45:38 UTC)
18:45:46 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:47 <DorpsGek> afrikaans - 9 changes by ewaldhorn
18:45:48 <DorpsGek> greek - 1 changes by Evropi
18:45:49 <DorpsGek> indonesian - 3 changes by Yoursnotmine
18:45:50 <DorpsGek> japanese - 10 changes by Aknuth
18:45:51 <DorpsGek> tamil - 1 changes by aswn
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19:09:24 <Superuser> STR_TIMETABLE_EXPECTED_TOOLTIP reads '{BLACK}Switch between expected and schedule'
19:09:26 <Superuser> Shouldn't it be 'scheduled'?
19:09:53 <Superuser> also, svn keeps closing the network connection unexpectedly
19:09:56 <Superuser> hg and git don't work
19:09:59 <Superuser> I don't know what to say
19:10:23 <Superuser> anyway, what do you think about STR_TIMETABLE_EXPECTED_TOOLTIP?
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19:23:47 <Superuser> anyway planetmaker, what do you think about that string?
19:23:50 <Superuser> Schedule or scheduled
19:23:55 <Superuser> also thanks, worked like a charm
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19:28:13 <Superuser> Also, regarding STR_CONFIG_SETTING_SOUND_CONFIRM_HELPTEXT: some other strings in the field actually do start with 'Play sound effect' instead of simply play sound... what should this be changed to?
19:30:56 <planetmaker> I'm no native speaker, Superuser
19:31:37 <Superuser> still, what do you think? And you can certainly comment on the latter
19:32:01 <Superuser> what should the STR_CONFIG_SETTINGS_SOUND group be standardised to? 'Play sound' or 'Play sound effect'?
19:32:13 <Superuser> And yes, I get extremely autistic about these things, planetmaker
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19:33:48 <planetmaker> yes. That's why it would be productive, if you compiled a summary patch of all changes you suggest or might suggest and then we can look at it in summary. Much more time efficient really
19:34:26 <planetmaker> scheduled might sound better. But then, I'm no native speaker
19:34:45 <Superuser> btw, do you mind if I replace the x with the unicode times symbol?
19:34:48 <__ln__> me neither, but in its current form it sounds ungrammatical.
19:35:19 <Superuser> pretty much all computer software does not conform to English grammar __ln__
19:35:38 <planetmaker> Superuser, that depends on whether we have the unicode symbol in our basesets
19:35:52 <__ln__> Superuser: what nonsense are you saying?
19:35:55 <planetmaker> if not: I do mind. Unless you provide the proper sprite to add it to them
19:36:12 <Superuser> × <-- the multiplication sign
19:36:42 <Superuser> huh, I thought the font depended on the system you're on?
19:37:19 <Superuser> okay then, maybe in another patch but for now I'll just do this stuff
19:37:25 <planetmaker> openttd provides a default font. And other fonts are only selected, if it can't display the required glyphs. Or if asked explicitly to use a different font
19:38:39 <__ln__> Superuser: pretty much all computer software does conform to english grammar if the user interface is in english in the first place. some small open source projects may not.
19:38:54 <Superuser> this is hardly a small open source project
19:39:08 <Superuser> think of every button ever in a GUI
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19:39:21 <Superuser> don't they usually contain just one word?
19:40:20 <planetmaker> it's not about the buttons only. It's about the whole text iirc
19:40:47 <planetmaker> and even the main menu has buttons with more than one word ;-)
19:45:28 <Superuser> anyway, __ln__, which would you prefer? With the word effect or without?
19:47:57 <__ln__> Superuser: a single word can't be ungrammatical per se.
19:48:38 <__ln__> besides, even single-word sentences aren't ungrammatical necessarily.
19:48:44 <Superuser> is that a yes or a no?
19:50:15 <__ln__> can't express an opinion without knowing the context.
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19:51:28 <Superuser> __ln__, here are some examples:
19:51:30 <Superuser> Play sound upon display of newspapers
19:51:38 <Superuser> Play sound effect on successful constructions or other actions
19:51:50 <Superuser> Play sound or play sound effect? We must standardise.
19:52:03 <Superuser> you are the kingmaker
19:52:11 <Superuser> the choice is yours, __ln__
19:52:31 <andythenorth> Play sound of course
19:52:37 <planetmaker> Superuser, it *could* also be asked in the forums ;-)
19:53:03 <Superuser> it's a long an arduous process. We need a decision fast, before the next OpenTTD is released
19:53:31 <Superuser> plus, the change is utterly trivial, lol
19:54:12 <__ln__> but i don't read and especially not write to the forums so the best possible opinions aren't available there.
19:54:28 <__ln__> without effect, i'd say.
19:54:35 <Superuser> okay, without effect it is
19:58:28 <glx> <@planetmaker> Superuser, it *could* also be asked in the forums ;-) <-- isn't that the best way to not have an answer ?
19:58:57 <Superuser> 2 people's opinions are enough :)
19:59:36 <Superuser> I don't see many forum users complaining about all the dashes left in various strings by a programmer who is presumably native in German and not English...
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20:15:27 <Ristovski> how do I compile the dedicated server?
20:15:43 <Ristovski> or is it just the standard openttd run with the -D option?
20:17:00 <frosch123> you can just use -D
20:17:14 <frosch123> the special compile option is just to require less libraries
20:24:02 <Ristovski> frosch123: what is it?
20:24:07 <Ristovski> it isnt "make server"
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20:26:40 <__ln__> Ristovski: if you are unable to locate the apostrophe key on your keyboard, you can type the whole words, e.g. in this case "is not".
20:26:57 <Ristovski> __ln__: I can, I just wont because its not necessary
20:27:18 <__ln__> oh but it is necessary.
20:27:43 <__ln__> it is, this channel is english only.
20:28:05 <Supercheese> Just use an autohotkey script that auto-fixes stuff for you
20:28:28 <Supercheese> I have such a script, it autofilters dont to don't, isnt to isn't, etc.
20:28:42 <frosch123> Ristovski: ./configure --enable-dedicated
20:28:45 <frosch123> or something like that
20:28:49 <Supercheese> saves many a keystroke while still keeping grammar intact
20:29:24 <Supercheese> although we seem to have abandoned capitalizing the first word of the sentence, as well as trailing punctuation
20:30:01 <Supercheese> Not quite sure when that happened...
20:31:01 <__ln__> Yes we seem to have, but that shouldn't be made a valid excuse for abandoning even more features of correct orthography.
20:31:13 <andythenorth> should I release FIRS 1.0?
20:31:32 <andythenorth> needs some play testing I reckon
20:31:49 <Supercheese> My spring break starts in 2 hours
20:31:56 <andythenorth> Supercheese: any comments from your Tropic game?
20:31:59 <Supercheese> no more pesky university classes for 10-ish days
20:32:09 <Supercheese> andythenorth: not yet, due to said pesky classes
20:32:14 <andythenorth> I can't release 1.0 with so many broken translations
20:32:38 <andythenorth> I am somewhat hampered
20:32:44 <andythenorth> by the fact they are foreign :P
20:32:56 <andythenorth> I released 0.10 already :P
20:32:59 <andythenorth> would be a bit weird
20:33:00 <Supercheese> 0.9 is released innit
20:33:08 <Eddi|zuHause> then release 0.11 :)
20:33:31 <Eddi|zuHause> "you get 1.0 when you finish these pesky translations"
20:33:51 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it's commonly done for "release candidates", e.g KDE
20:34:17 <Eddi|zuHause> x.90, x.95, x.99, (x+1).0
20:35:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: i honestly can't keep up with andythenorth's release schedule :p
20:35:32 <andythenorth> I write code, draw pixels, release
20:35:37 <Supercheese> "whenever he feels like it," yes, that is hard to keep up with ;)
20:36:13 <Supercheese> OTTD is easy to follow, updates are mostly on April Fool's :P
20:37:43 <andythenorth> I should fix these stupid boats
20:38:03 * andythenorth fixes stupid boats
20:38:12 <andythenorth> I'm so bored of this ship set
20:38:48 <Supercheese> play using 100% zeppelins then
20:39:10 <Supercheese> Fishing zeppelins, oil zeppelins, fruit zeppelins
20:39:16 <Supercheese> Gotta catch 'em all
20:39:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i did oil zeppelins
20:39:35 <Eddi|zuHause> problem is you have only one heliport
20:39:56 <Supercheese> Eddi, just raise some land beside the rig, build a helistation
20:40:13 <Supercheese> Now you've 4 helipads
20:40:14 <Eddi|zuHause> that's so silly V453000 would do it :p
20:40:32 <Supercheese> NUTS Zeppelin set
20:40:47 <Supercheese> Err, wait, it is an actual acronym
20:41:03 <andythenorth> honestly, someone make a case for new models of freight ship
20:41:09 <andythenorth> because I don't see one
20:41:13 <Supercheese> NUTZ Unrealistic Trains and Zeppelins
20:41:25 <andythenorth> 1870-2020, same size, same speed
20:41:30 <andythenorth> why bother with a new one?
20:42:00 <Supercheese> Ship sizes, speeds, and loading speeds have changed in that time interval
20:42:39 <Supercheese> but really it's a wash, just add more ships
20:42:44 <Supercheese> infinite capacity
20:42:54 <andythenorth> ship sizes haven't changed
20:42:58 <andythenorth> speeds haven't changed much
20:43:05 <andythenorth> loading speed is a non-factor for gameplay
20:43:17 <andythenorth> it's not reported by the game anywhere, it's effectively invisible
20:43:23 <andythenorth> we should just remove it from the spec
20:43:24 <Supercheese> Reliability also has changed, but that's a useless stat anyway
20:43:39 <andythenorth> running cost is a non-factor
20:43:44 <Supercheese> affects nothing when breakdowns are disabled
20:43:47 <andythenorth> purchase cost is a non-factor, except in early game
20:44:13 <Supercheese> Well, for large freight ships you could just take the Av8 route and have "passive" upgrades
20:44:16 <Supercheese> i.e. no new model
20:44:30 <andythenorth> that annoys Eddi|zuHause :)
20:44:43 <Supercheese> but that sounds like TMWFTLB, and seems to annoy some
20:47:35 <Superuser> I want to commit with hg but it won't let me push, says it needs ssl
20:53:26 <planetmaker> uhm, you don't have commit access, Superuser
20:53:37 <planetmaker> create a patch. attach it to your FS task
20:53:55 <Superuser> I never really got how to make .patch files :(
20:54:01 <Superuser> you need to have 2 copies
20:54:08 <Supercheese> It's easy in SVN, not so in hg
20:54:12 <Superuser> the thing is they have different names
20:54:19 <Superuser> so I'll add a useless file right
20:56:26 <andythenorth> hg diff > my_patch.diff ?
20:58:17 <Superuser> what if I just send you the raw text file
20:58:21 <Superuser> and YOU commit it, andythenorth
20:58:31 <Superuser> and no I don't care about being credited
20:58:41 <andythenorth> what's it a patch for?
20:59:57 <Superuser> changing some of the original english strings for greater uniformity
21:00:07 <Superuser> src/langs/english.txt
21:00:32 <Superuser> you down with that?
21:00:50 <andythenorth> only one problem
21:00:55 * andythenorth has no commit rights
21:01:11 <andythenorth> and I don't much fancy attaching your patch to FS :P
21:03:45 <Superuser> maybe use hg export?
21:04:09 <planetmaker> hg diff > blah.diff
21:04:23 <planetmaker> works fine. If you actually changed the file in the repo (and saved it)
21:05:21 <Eddi|zuHause> hg export includes commit messages and stuff
21:05:51 <planetmaker> not what you want for uncomitted changes
21:07:37 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: you commit to your local repo, of course
21:07:45 <Superuser> the problem is that all the diffs produced are empty
21:07:52 <Superuser> and when I hg status it says nothing has changed
21:08:01 <planetmaker> of course. Nothing has changed then
21:08:07 <planetmaker> then you need to export your commits
21:08:43 <Superuser> requires me to name the changeset
21:08:48 <Superuser> how do I find that out
21:08:56 <Superuser> actually most things require you to name the revision/changeset
21:09:19 <Superuser> relating to diffs anyway
21:09:54 <Superuser> that gives me things from as far back as 2004...
21:10:30 <planetmaker> latest 20 changesets
21:10:47 <planetmaker> likely you might want hg export tip
21:12:15 <Superuser> I exported and redirected to a .diff
21:13:45 <andythenorth> pax : mail ratio?
21:13:57 <andythenorth> capacti 1 pax = 1.66 mailbags?
21:14:07 <andythenorth> where did I get that from? o_O
21:14:22 <Superuser> oh I thought it was edgy for 'packs'
21:14:27 <Alberth> andythenorth: your fingers :)
21:15:13 <andythenorth> I think I just made it up :P
21:15:29 <Alberth> 3 pax = 5 mail sounds a lot safer with fingers at stake
21:16:13 <andythenorth> 5 pax = 4 mail seems more plausible
21:16:21 <andythenorth> I had an odd case initially
21:16:40 <Alberth> hmm, yellow wagons for scrap metal :p
21:18:08 <Superuser> why does this unit of measurement exist :(
21:20:23 <Alberth> oh, scrap metal pays much better :p
21:22:55 * andythenorth just did that thing of figuring out a solution to an ill-defined problem :P
21:23:23 <andythenorth> newgrfs should declare a semver API which GS could use
21:25:05 <andythenorth> semantic versioned API, allows GS authors to write code against a specific newgrf (or newgrfs)
21:25:31 <andythenorth> for example, cargo goal GS that knew about specific FIRS cargos
21:25:55 <Eddi|zuHause> GS can read which cargos are defined, right?
21:26:55 <andythenorth> but it has no way afaik to require a specific newgrf
21:27:07 <andythenorth> except via documentation, or error messages
21:27:15 <andythenorth> maybe that's enough
21:27:22 * andythenorth goes back to boats :
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21:43:05 <kero> please: is it possible to load/reload a gamescript ingame ?
21:46:46 <kero> Superuser : how do I do that ?
21:49:19 <Superuser> I have absolutely no idea, but I know it is possible.
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continue to next day ⏵