IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-03-07
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00:53:17 <Supercheese> I probably should be testing FIRS
00:53:24 <Supercheese> but there's this game called War Thunder...
01:07:15 <Donnie> How to modify the duration of the game day?It too fast the day
01:08:17 <Eddi|zuHause> that is not possible in the official versions, but there are some experimental versions out there which can do this
01:08:55 <Eddi|zuHause> look for "daylength" in the development forum, but expect lots of bugs and incompatible savegames
01:08:56 <Supercheese> search forums for "daylength"
01:19:48 <Bad_Brett> I think TT is rather slow as it is
01:20:23 <Bad_Brett> I don't think I've ever played until 2030, which was the goal in the original game
01:35:14 <wolfmitchell> Idea for a feature: ability to 'op' clients so they can do the same things as if you were the server owner, which is useful if you have a dedicated server and don't feel like memorizing all the comands/want to use functions that don't have a command
01:48:26 <Eddi|zuHause> "clients" can only be "op" if you give them the rcon password
01:49:05 <Eddi|zuHause> and which things do not have a command?
01:58:07 <wolfmitchell> iirc there is no command for the fast forward thing
01:58:13 <wolfmitchell> or to change AI settings
02:07:40 <Eddi|zuHause> there is no fast forward in multiplayer
02:08:04 <Eddi|zuHause> not command not gui nor otherwise
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08:22:50 <kamnet> Augh. I'm trying to update Scott Joplin Anthology on Bananas. Added new readme, changelog, reformatted the license, made modification to the obm file. Upped the version number, repackaged in new tar file. Bananas says, "There is already a package with the exact same footprint."
08:26:15 <kamnet> Why isn't a new md5 hash being created? :-(
08:28:14 <peter1138> well collisions are not impossible
08:28:56 <__ln__> unless kamnet specifically tried to create a collision and had a lot of computing power to do that
08:29:40 <kamnet> Well, I *AM* using an Intel i3 core... ;-)
08:30:46 <TinoDidriksen> I've had plenty of MD5 collisions even for just a few thousand files, so I had to store the files as {MD5}_{Length} to disambiguate.
08:31:25 <__ln__> are we talking about the same MD5 as the rest of the world?
08:31:47 <kamnet> I would think the addition of two new files would be enough to trigger a change.
08:32:34 <__ln__> TinoDidriksen: can you show us a bunch of such colliding files?
08:38:50 <__ln__> because finding unintentional MD5 collisions with just a few thousand files sounds quite remarkable.
08:40:37 <andythenorth> even if the files are all the same? :P
08:41:36 <__ln__> in that case a bit less remarkable.. although i don't know how the _{Length} would distinguish two same files then.
08:43:19 <__ln__> TinoDidriksen: how did you calculate those MD5 hashes?
08:51:48 <andythenorth> bananas: you can, for practical purposes, hide a grf by setting a very low max version?
08:54:10 <TinoDidriksen> __ln__, found it and it was not files - I remembered wrong. It was a cache of URLs to images where they collided, but given the much smaller data that's believable.
08:54:40 <kamnet> hmmm, I'll try that andythenorth
08:54:51 <TinoDidriksen> Currently the cache has 60k URLs and no collisions.
08:55:12 <andythenorth> kamnet: result will be interesting. UI suggests to me that it's possible, but I didn't test.
08:56:57 <__ln__> TinoDidriksen: are you sure you weren't e.g. calculating the hash only based on the first 30 bytes or something?
08:57:49 <kamnet> Nope, that don't work either.
08:58:10 <TinoDidriksen> It's old code anyway; using SHA1 and better these days.
08:58:15 <kamnet> There is already a package with the unique id '414D4A53'.
08:59:25 <__ln__> kamnet: that's only four bytes.
09:00:53 <TinoDidriksen> So Bananas only uses the first 4 bytes of the hash for the ID?
09:23:37 <__ln__> i have no idea, but if it does, collisions are 2^(8*12) = 79228162514264337593543950336 times more likely than with MD5.
09:33:56 <andythenorth> Don't Believe The Hype
10:06:31 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: pokka was last seen in #openttd 20 hours, 39 minutes, and 20 seconds ago: <Pokka> yes he has
10:10:40 <DorpsGek> V453000: Pikka was last seen in #openttd 15 hours, 23 minutes, and 37 seconds ago: <Pikka> goondight
10:14:40 <DorpsGek> kamnet: alpaca was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 37 weeks, 1 day, 21 hours, 36 minutes, and 16 seconds ago: <Alpaca> found the solution (eventually), thanks! Now I don't have to remake maps to tweak sets
10:17:56 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: V453000 was last seen in #openttd 7 minutes and 10 seconds ago: <V453000> see :P
10:24:20 <DorpsGek> kamnet: I have not seen London.
10:24:25 <DorpsGek> kamnet: I have not seen France.
10:24:35 <kamnet> Well, I suppose you've not seen Andy's underpants, either, eh?
10:24:42 <kamnet> You're not fun, DorpsGek!
10:48:28 <V453000> andythenorth: those YMMV and whatever make it rather hard to read :D had to google those
10:48:43 <andythenorth> well you learnt something ;)
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10:50:18 <V453000> question is how long will I remember that
10:50:28 <V453000> braindead incorporated
10:50:32 <andythenorth> I do pretty well, YMMV
10:51:05 <V453000> I dont even know if my answer is yes or no
10:51:15 <andythenorth> BTW, FWIW (and just FYI), IMHO, TLAs and FLAs help with the tl;dr problem
10:51:53 <andythenorth> have you fixed my ship set yet?
10:51:58 <andythenorth> it's still broken for gameplay
10:52:27 <Eddi|zuHause> they're called ETLAs
10:52:32 <V453000> what is broken there? :D
10:52:53 <andythenorth> I am making changes to try and keep the sprite contributors happy (and for other reasons)
10:52:55 <Eddi|zuHause> because FLA isn't an FLA
10:53:02 <andythenorth> I don't want to draw all the ships :P
10:53:05 <andythenorth> but it's kind of hard
10:53:22 <V453000> see I dont have sprite contributors and I am happy in return :P
10:53:36 <andythenorth> I am happier to have contributors than draw my own ships
10:53:43 <andythenorth> also they might be right, more or less
10:53:51 <V453000> though honestly my ship sucks ass
10:54:10 <andythenorth> so the question: is there any point having river ships and sea ships separately?
10:54:37 <V453000> was considering to STEAL one from FISH, but in the end it worked out somewhat :)
10:54:52 <V453000> what do you mean separately, on a different RAILTYPE? :D
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14:30:48 <Pikka> I don't think there's much point, andy.
14:36:53 <andythenorth> Pikka: what was the question eh?
14:37:11 <Pikka> whether to have separate river ships
14:37:23 <andythenorth> but should I? :P
14:37:48 <andythenorth> also hello Pikka
14:37:56 <Pikka> also hello andythenorth
14:48:33 <Pikka> pikkarail.com/junk/before.png
14:48:38 <Pikka> pikkarail.com/junk/after.png
14:49:45 <Pikka> 16 RVs covering 1910-2050+, who needs more? :)
14:50:11 <andythenorth> why 4 generations of bus?
14:50:15 <andythenorth> why not just one?
14:50:20 <andythenorth> is what puzzles me :)
14:50:34 <Pikka> "realism" or something :)
14:52:22 <Pikka> but there's significant stats changes
14:52:38 <Pikka> it's not just "oh, here's another vehicle exactly the same as the one you got 5 years ago"
14:58:17 <andythenorth> that's why I have no problems with this in HEQS :P
14:58:27 <andythenorth> mining trucks: 35t, 50t, 90t, 120t, 160t
14:58:31 <andythenorth> *that's* progress
14:58:35 <andythenorth> not this dicking about
14:59:00 <andythenorth> oh look, I'll give you just enough extra capacity and speed that you have to arse about scrapping 15% of vehicles on this route :P
14:59:46 <andythenorth> BANDIT is going to be very realistic
15:00:21 <Pikka> with fewer vehicles with more time between them, then even if there is arsing about rebalancing, at least it's not as often
15:00:23 <andythenorth> it will have one big jump around 1948, when trucks could benefit from wartime development of engines, transmissions, axles etc
15:00:39 <andythenorth> and another big jump in 1970s / 80s due to 'legislation changes'
15:01:17 <andythenorth> even that is overthinking it :D
15:02:50 <Pikka> but if you want to be very realistic, I suppose you have to take such considerations into consideration.
15:03:34 <Pikka> also, the problem with occasionally keeping strange hours is you never know when it's appropriate to have a drink D;
15:04:34 <Pikka> over the yardarm doesn't really apply when you got up at 6pm :)
15:05:26 <Pinkbeast> Have a strict rule to get out of bed and put on at least one item of clothing before having a snifter
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17:18:39 <andythenorth> Pikka: smuggling industry grf?
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17:41:05 <andythenorth> lo Terkhen also quak
17:44:19 <Pikka> andythenorth, silly idea?:
17:45:01 <Pikka> all vehicles in one grf (trains, rvs, planes, ships), with parameter options to disable each vehicle type if players don't want them
17:45:15 <andythenorth> that's what I was doing with HEQS :)
17:45:22 <andythenorth> it's supposed to have ships and planes in
17:45:30 <andythenorth> I got shouted at :P
17:45:33 <Pikka> also town buildings and industries in one grf?
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17:45:35 <andythenorth> then I didn't do it
17:45:43 <andythenorth> Pikka: all in one theme pack?
17:46:22 <Pikka> a base set, a vehicle grf, a town&industry grf and an infrastructure grf
17:46:28 <Pikka> for the complete pikka experience (tm)
17:46:49 <frosch123> Pikka: next step would be your own forum :)
17:47:22 <Pikka> my own forum would imply I'm interested in what randoms have to say, frosch123 ;)
17:48:03 <frosch123> ah, right, you were running a blog
17:49:18 <Pikka> anyway, I shall also fail to put all this on bananas, thus resulting in it "not existing" as far as most openttd players are concerned. good idea, andythenorth? :)
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17:50:36 <andythenorth> Pikka: not good idea also
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17:51:06 <Pikka> aw, I thought it was a triffic idea
17:51:15 <andythenorth> make your own bananas
17:51:51 <andythenorth> if I make one grf
17:51:55 <andythenorth> there will be no trains :(
17:52:03 <andythenorth> except that mog thing
17:52:26 <Pikka> TTD is all about planes and ships
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18:05:09 <frosch123> yeah, esp. jet planes
18:05:13 <frosch123> sometimes they start flaming
18:12:23 <andythenorth> shameful internet
18:12:38 <andythenorth> also I should fix these fishing harbours
18:12:41 <andythenorth> construction state smells
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18:26:51 * jonty-comp spambins some more simuscape shit
18:31:42 <andythenorth> from or against?
18:31:51 <jonty-comp> in the hall of fame topic
18:31:57 <jonty-comp> i split it now so nothing to see here :P
18:33:29 <peter1138> they just can't stop can they
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18:35:51 <jonty-comp> god knows if i wasn't a moderator i'd join them
18:35:57 <jonty-comp> but i am a MATURE INDIVIDIAL now
18:36:34 <peter1138> i shouldn't've done that
18:37:36 <Eddi|zuHause> am i glad that the simuawards topic is in a forum that i don't read
18:41:19 <andythenorth> I am glad I don't read off-topic
18:42:04 <andythenorth> jonty-comp: that was a nice warning, enjoy the FISH :)
18:42:11 <peter1138> yeah you'd have to vote about what windows you're using
18:45:20 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25070 /trunk/src/lang (korean.txt polish.txt) (2013-03-07 18:45:15 UTC)
18:45:21 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:22 <DorpsGek> korean - 2 changes by telk5093
18:45:23 <DorpsGek> polish - 1 changes by wojteks86
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19:22:20 <skrzyp> how can I optimize performance of OTTD?
19:25:25 <NGC3982> That depends on how far you are willing to go
19:26:44 <NGC3982> Other than hardware changes, nothing really.
19:37:06 <Bad_Brett> Messing with the sprite cache size did the trick for me
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19:39:58 <Alberth> don't run AIs, don't use 2048x2048 tile maps, use 8bpp, reduce animation effects
19:43:37 <Eddi|zuHause> don't play the game => lowest CPU consumption of all
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19:52:03 <Alberth> and if you turn off the computer, you'll also save the environment :p
19:54:39 <NGC3982> Bad_Brett: One can do that?
19:55:07 <NGC3982> Oh, and yes: Never try and play OpenTTD on an Atom CPU.
19:55:18 <andythenorth> construction states
19:57:16 <Bad_Brett> <NGC3982> i know very little about these things. it was eddi who suggested that I should increase the sprite cache size in the config file... and the CPU usage went down from about 40-50% to 1-2%
19:57:45 <andythenorth> construction states are pain in the arse
19:59:53 <Bad_Brett> i think they're pretty fun to draw :)
20:00:29 <ZxBiohazardZx> define optimize it
20:00:34 <ZxBiohazardZx> are you having issues?
20:01:19 <ZxBiohazardZx> the only time i want to optimise ottd is when im playing big maps (4k*4k) with alot of trains (1k-2k)
20:01:32 <ZxBiohazardZx> and or combine above with paxdest / timetables
20:01:36 <ZxBiohazardZx> then saving etc is bitchy
20:06:52 <Eddi|zuHause> <Bad_Brett> <NGC3982> i know very little about these things. it was eddi who suggested that I should increase the sprite cache size in the config file... and the CPU usage went down from about 40-50% to 1-2% <-- that's for if you use lots of high-resolution-32bpp graphics
20:09:26 <ZxBiohazardZx> 4098 whatever ottd uses
20:10:07 <Eddi|zuHause> 4096... how can you not know your powers of two? :p
20:11:25 <Bad_Brett> yes, the sprite size cache shouldn't be a problem unless you play with 32bpp... the reason i mentioned it is because some people use zBase (though it still contains less animations than my grf)
20:11:52 <Pikka> boo construction states
20:12:25 <Bad_Brett> they're your friend :)
20:13:02 <andythenorth> constructions states on water :P
20:13:41 <Bad_Brett> Just make them blank?
20:14:06 <andythenorth> have to code the fucker first though :P
20:14:24 <andythenorth> all my frameworked code is awesome, but I have to extend it for custom construction states :P
20:15:06 <Bad_Brett> then i feel your pain
20:15:29 <andythenorth> also I don't get sleep :P
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20:28:47 <andythenorth> Alberth: I need to check industry.override_default_construction_states==True
20:28:52 <andythenorth> but industry.override_default_construction_states may be undefined
20:29:15 <andythenorth> I could use hasattr, but I can't figure out how to check exists AND is true (in one simple line)
20:29:40 <Alberth> make it 'None' in the constructor?
20:30:17 <andythenorth> instead of False?
20:30:22 <Eddi|zuHause> "None" evaluates to false if not handled explicitly
20:30:34 <andythenorth> currently I set self.override_default_construction_states = kwargs.get('override_default_construction_states', False)
20:30:44 <andythenorth> which I thought would work
20:30:49 <Eddi|zuHause> so "if blah:" will not be run if None or False, but is run if True
20:31:02 <Alberth> so why may it not exist then?
20:31:37 <andythenorth> have to go look some more I guess :)
20:31:42 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I always check for None-ness explicitly, and for boolean value if it is not None
20:31:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i don't understand the problem
20:32:17 <andythenorth> afaict I've done the right thing
20:32:22 <andythenorth> I must miss something somewhere
20:32:34 <Alberth> in general it is bad practice to not know whether fields exist; life is a whole lot simpler if you just create all of them in the constructor
20:32:55 <Eddi|zuHause> it would help if you described the actual problem, not your perception of a skewed solution
20:33:34 <Eddi|zuHause> in CETS i state explicitly which arguments i want out of the kwargs
20:33:43 <andythenorth> AttributeError: 'Industry' object has no attribute 'override_default_construction_states'
20:34:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. i call function(**values), but i def function(a,b,x, **values)
20:34:27 <Eddi|zuHause> then it throws an error if a,b or x are not defined
20:36:04 <Eddi|zuHause> either you read it before you define it, or the assignment is in some conditional clause where the other branch misses it
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20:39:08 <andythenorth> industry.default_industry_properties.override_default_construction_states
20:39:18 <andythenorth> not industry.override_default_construction_states
21:00:54 <andythenorth> && is not and in python :P
21:05:30 <Alberth> glad I am not the only one doing that wrong :)
21:07:22 <andythenorth> I thought I was the only python retard in this channel? o_O
21:07:55 <andythenorth> slow slow slow nml
21:08:06 <andythenorth> now I have to find web pages to read every time I compile FIRS :P
21:08:20 <andythenorth> it will be time for random wikipedia surfing soon
21:12:18 <Alberth> I can offer some eints issues instead :p
21:12:59 <andythenorth> feeling abandoned? :(
21:25:27 <andythenorth> Alberth: any particular issue?
21:26:35 <Alberth> no, not feeling abandoned, you're busy FIRSing :)
21:27:53 <Alberth> all but 4823 5162 and 5174 (and perhaps 5177) could use some of your time
21:28:45 <Alberth> I am adding some user and access rights to the program
21:29:24 <Alberth> have any ideas about how we should manage translators in a project?
21:29:41 <andythenorth> implementation-wise, process-wise? or GUI-wise? :)
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21:31:45 <andythenorth> nmlc ERROR: There are not enough registers available to perform all required computations in switch blocks. Please reduce the complexity of your code.
21:32:36 <Alberth> (10:29:41 PM) andythenorth: implementation-wise, process-wise? or GUI-wise? :) <-- process-wise would be a good start imho
21:34:29 <andythenorth> Alberth: can you undo a language deletion?
21:34:44 <Alberth> upload the file again? :)
21:35:44 <Alberth> you'll lose all history though
21:37:17 <frosch123> svn cp from older revision should work iirc
21:37:27 <frosch123> hmm, though this is hg
21:37:39 <frosch123> i am sure you can merge with and older version again in some way
21:38:09 <Alberth> frosch123: andythenorth is talking about the eints app, which has no version control
21:38:30 <frosch123> but it operates on a repository, doesn't it?
21:38:39 <frosch123> or does it have additional data in its own database?
21:39:37 <Alberth> it keeps everything in a file, which gets updated
21:39:51 <Alberth> it keeps the last n versions of that file though
21:41:31 <andythenorth> there's no way to solve my nml issue, is there? :(
21:42:47 <Alberth> I am not sure what NML exactly does with registers, and whether there is still room
21:43:12 <Alberth> you may want to ask our planet maker, he might know
21:50:35 <andythenorth> Alberth: delete page improved
21:50:43 <andythenorth> not awesome, but better
21:51:51 <Alberth> I seem to be only writing text today, instead of coding
21:52:36 <andythenorth> oops, forgot something
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21:58:56 * andythenorth puzzles about how to work around register limit in spritelayouts
21:59:36 <andythenorth> probably need to remove some of the ground awareness stuff
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