IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-03-01
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00:14:19 <kormer> I'm using the exact same newgrfs with same settings, same build, and same script as a server game, but the server's cities are generating 3x pax per population as normal, any idea on what else could cause the discrepancy?
00:14:50 <Supercheese> Different buildings generate different pax counts
00:15:00 <Supercheese> You might have gotten unlucky and gotten low-pax buildings in the city
00:15:14 <Supercheese> whereas the server city had many high-pax buildings
00:15:41 <kormer> when a city is expanding organically as opposed to the scenario editor, does that affect which buildings are built?
00:15:55 <kormer> IE, the organically grown city might be selecting only the higher pax buildings?
00:15:55 <Supercheese> It's fairly random both ways
00:16:15 <Supercheese> I don't think that biases things one way or another
00:16:43 <Supercheese> Some TTRS buildings generate loads of passengers
00:16:58 <Supercheese> compared to default buildings especially
00:17:09 <kormer> yea, it's TTRS, I just can't replicate what's happening on the server that's driving me nuts
00:17:52 <Supercheese> Well, buildings are built at random, there's no way around that
00:17:58 <kormer> I'm noticing also that my scenario editor cities are about half the physical size as the server's cities for the same population
00:18:14 <Supercheese> Yeah, each building contributes different population counts as well
00:18:25 <Supercheese> high-rises more than a single house, etc.
00:19:07 <Supercheese> Also towns with well-planned road grids can achieve higher populations
00:19:15 <kormer> the ratio of pax to population shouldn't change though
00:19:22 <Supercheese> Minimizing roads while maximizing houses
00:19:57 <Supercheese> You'd have to look at the TTRS code to see if buildings have skewed pop/pax counts or not
00:20:05 <Supercheese> they easily could, I've not checked
00:20:06 <kormer> for all my cities, I'm seeing a constant 13 pax generated for every 100 pop, the server is showing 36 pax per 100 pop, but only once the city grows above 10k or so
00:20:34 <Supercheese> Yeah, that smells like TTRS buildings
00:20:48 <Supercheese> some generating enormous amounts of passengers compared to others
00:20:57 <Supercheese> and imbalanced population counts as well, likely
00:21:04 <kormer> ok, let me dive into that for a bit and see what I come up with
00:21:13 <Supercheese> e.g. one building provides 10 population but 100 pax, while another provides 10 pop and only 20 pax
00:22:11 <kormer> that wouldn't surprise me, I just figured pax generation was a global setting based on population
00:23:44 <Supercheese> seems the code is all in .nfo, which I cannot read :S
00:24:09 <kormer> I'll figure it out, thanks for pointing me in the right direction though.
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05:52:34 <Supercheese> I don't see anything in the OTTD Wiki Manual of Style preventing disambiguation pages
05:52:48 <Supercheese> I'm going to presume that means I'm free to make one, unless someone objects
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06:23:07 <Supercheese> Oh lord, I am failing these redirects so hard
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06:50:11 <Supercheese> There's no wiki page for the main menu>!
06:50:55 <Supercheese> Oh lord, the wiki isn't maintained much, is it?
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08:12:59 <andythenorth> are those coaches bilevel?
08:13:04 <andythenorth> or is that offensively wrong?
08:13:08 <Pokka> those coaches are boxcars
08:13:22 <andythenorth> they look hi-cubey :)
08:13:26 <andythenorth> the consolidation is awesome
08:13:34 <andythenorth> what's the lectric thingy? Looks nice
08:13:35 <Pokka> because they're full-height diagonals
08:13:42 <Pokka> the hi-cubey ones will be even higher :)
08:14:10 <andythenorth> the diagonal is the atlantic?
08:15:06 <Pokka> the driving wheels on the steam locos look a bit indistinct in screenshots, but that's because they're animated, they're clearer in motion.
08:15:27 <andythenorth> the firebox slope on the atlantic is awesome
08:15:45 <andythenorth> shall we pop over to deviantart and have some frothing over pixels?
08:16:03 <Pokka> I don't know, shall we?
08:16:34 <Pokka> this acetylene needs to get to edinburgh
08:17:19 <andythenorth> I may have stolen your license btw :P
08:17:26 <andythenorth> how's that for meta-theft? :)
08:17:45 <Pokka> what, "copyright me, contact me if you have any questions"?
08:18:12 <andythenorth> so is it done yet?
08:18:16 <andythenorth> I have a game running
08:18:21 <Pokka> maximum length of an articulated lorry in the UK is 16.5m
08:18:34 <Pokka> that's rather shorter than most diesel locomotives and rail carriages
08:18:57 <Supercheese> No triple-trailers in Britain, eh?
08:19:12 <Pokka> I'm definitely doing "articulated" lorries as non-articulated
08:19:43 <andythenorth> my game is using UKRS2 btw
08:20:09 <andythenorth> I have a deltic and a chopper
08:20:14 <andythenorth> what more could be needed?
08:20:18 <andythenorth> I'm ignoring the others
08:21:09 <andythenorth> I'm using 2 of them on every train
08:21:12 <Pokka> I thought the other day that maybe I should have a type 2 instead of the 37
08:21:16 <andythenorth> might as well be 37
08:21:23 <Pokka> but I've already drawn the 37, so laziness prevails
08:21:45 <andythenorth> one less click for every new train
08:21:48 <andythenorth> and one less drag
08:21:53 <andythenorth> think of the lives saved
08:22:09 <Pokka> is your game on an internet
08:22:22 <andythenorth> internet is beyond me
08:22:27 <andythenorth> also Squid smells
08:23:46 <Pokka> well apparently it's going to take 1hr 20min to get to edinburgh, and this game has 10x time and distance compression, so brb in about 10 minutes.
08:25:03 <andythenorth> stupid cargo multiplier crap
08:25:15 <andythenorth> these HEQS trams are broken, capacity is 50% what it should be
08:30:55 <Supercheese> Nevermind, must needs sleep
08:32:00 <Pokka> never rely on the muliplier
08:32:14 <Pokka> always explicitly callback a capacity :)
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09:24:13 <tracerpt> morning engineers ^^ :D
09:34:10 <peter1138> what's a reasonable max size for alloca()
09:35:07 <peter1138> hmm, few hundred bytes
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09:50:22 <tracerpt> any number lower than 1 million sucks :P
09:50:47 <SpComb> default stack size limit is iirc 8M :)
09:51:48 <peter1138> but other stuff are likely on the stack
09:52:37 <SpComb> it's like operators selling you "up to 100mbps"
09:52:52 <SpComb> alloc() can be used to allocate up the 8MB of memory on the stack
09:53:24 <peter1138> yeah but alloca will crash & burn if you allocate too much
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10:32:52 <andythenorth> return of the mac
10:33:34 <andythenorth> return of the mack
10:35:59 <andythenorth> it's a big world
10:36:23 <Pokka> 10 times bigger than ETS2
10:36:53 <Pokka> well, 100 times bigger in a square-type-measuring-fashion.
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10:41:45 <peter1138> ur momma's so fat she's tiny
10:43:26 <Pokka> do I have to do jury duty?
10:43:36 <Pokka> if I don't get the summons by monday, I'm off the hook.
10:44:12 <Pokka> otherwise it's two weeks from the 18th of march, wot larks
10:44:41 <andythenorth> Pokka: you can draw in court, right? :P
10:45:35 <Eddi|zuHause> there used to be a saying that a champagne company can only be successful if a german founded it
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11:48:20 <tracerpt> before i smash my head on the keyboard
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13:58:06 <peter1138> i can't get a word in edgeways
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14:14:47 <cerzi> hey guys, quick question: is there any real point to deliverying to multiple end-of-the-line industries? like if i have a huge supply of diamonds, is there any real benefit to sending them to multiple banks rather than piling them all into one?
14:15:49 <peter1138> other that spreading your traffic out, probably not
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14:21:49 <planetmaker> there might be industry sets where acceptance of the cargo might stop, if you deliver too much of it. But default industries accept infinite amounts
14:22:18 <cerzi> mm i might have to look into that
14:22:36 <cerzi> feels a bit cheap delivering half the continents supply of x to a single place hehe
14:23:24 <lugo> when i now start a server from the linux box, windows clients can't connect because of "wrong version"
14:24:08 <lugo> both versions have "OpenTTD HardPack 0.7.144" in the title when opening them
14:24:49 <lugo> but when trying to connect the win-client tells me the server version would be "HardPack 0.7.1"
14:30:43 <lugo> so question is: is the version displayed in the title of a game the same as is displayed to other clients when running as a server?
14:31:03 <lugo> Well it's clearly not in my case, but shouldn't it be that way?
14:35:31 <planetmaker> yesish. But your version string is too long and then it fails to look the same
14:35:46 <planetmaker> in the network protocol
14:36:26 <planetmaker> that's why cargodist chooses the shortform of CD. Only that way it maintains network compatibility
14:40:00 <planetmaker> lugo, you got 15 bytes, including the string terminator \0. But you use at least 17 bytes
14:41:28 <lugo> well when starting a server with the binaries and then trying to connect from the linux machine it also tells me "HardPack 0.7.1"
14:42:06 <lugo> and btw, the icon indicating connection is possible is "green"
14:42:07 <planetmaker> Yes... a longer string is not broadcast over network
14:43:07 <lugo> mmmh, so my only option would be to compile it for windows and linux with a shorter version string?
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14:43:14 <planetmaker> not sure whether joining actually works... it uses strcmp for the first 15 bytes, but I didn't look whether anything special is done, fi strings are longer than 15 bytes
14:43:33 <planetmaker> that's the least troublesome solution, yes
14:46:20 <planetmaker> you could of course investigate whether longer version strings are possible. I'm not sure whether the length restriction is due to package size restrictions or not
14:47:25 <planetmaker> I just recall that there is *some* issue ;-) Maybe you find the reasons, if you dig through cargodist thread or logs of this channel
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14:54:41 <planetmaker> lugo, maybe fonsinchen recalls better as of the reasons that the network transmitted version string is not longer than 15 bytes :-)
14:57:33 <fonsinchen> I don't actually know the reasons.
14:57:57 <fonsinchen> I once asked if that could be changed and the answer was that it's complicated.
14:58:05 <fonsinchen> Then I just shortened my version string.
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15:06:49 * lugo is compiling everything needed to compile
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16:58:28 <slower> Hello, is there any developer?
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17:16:45 <slower> I'd like to participate on development of ttd, I've read the todo list, does anyone know which easy tasks are free to be done?
17:20:15 <slower> but it looks like most of the easy tasks are done
17:20:36 <peter1138> yup, they're the easy ones
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17:21:08 <slower> yes, but which are still not done and I can start working on it?
17:21:49 <__ln__> somebody probably has a patch for every bug and feature request already, just not committed.
17:22:38 <slower> so everything is done already? :)
17:24:49 <__ln__> yes, it's a complete and perfect product once the remaining patches are accepted.
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18:19:36 <slower> is there anything else to be done with which I could help if everything seems to be programmed already?
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18:27:06 <MNIM> slower: if you're still paying attention, OTTD is in constant development.
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18:30:44 <slower> I'm but this IRC is making me confused a bit, yet. I have no idea who's joking and who's serious :)
18:33:20 <frosch123> slower: the todo list is up-to-date
18:33:27 <frosch123> everything that is being worked on is linked from there
18:33:38 <frosch123> i.e. make sure to look at the fs and forum links
18:33:48 <frosch123> review is slow though :s
18:42:21 <frosch123> i fear the vehicle gui will look weird when removing on of the buttons
18:43:17 <Alberth> yeah, I am not convinced that they should be moved, but a unified icon would be possible imho
18:44:11 <frosch123> well, the vehicle gui icon is quite big, you cannot place it next to text buttons
18:44:18 <frosch123> that would also look weird
18:44:38 <frosch123> i like the idea to draw a new small icon and put it into the caption bar
18:44:53 <frosch123> just that i worry about the vehicle gui :)
18:45:32 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25057 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2013-03-01 18:45:23 UTC)
18:45:33 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:34 <DorpsGek> greek - 13 changes by Evropi
18:45:35 <DorpsGek> korean - 2 changes by telk5093
18:45:36 <DorpsGek> norwegian_nynorsk - 35 changes by terjesc
18:45:46 <Alberth> just add a new icon then?
18:46:12 <frosch123> like two buttons in the vehicle gui? or like only in the other guis?
18:46:19 <frosch123> or the same icon at two scales?
18:46:43 <frosch123> captionbar icon would likely need to black only
18:46:50 <frosch123> vehicle gui icon looks quite different
18:47:14 <slower> I've read the info and I it does look suitable for me
18:47:19 <frosch123> maybe we should just make the other buttons in the vehicle gui higher :p
18:48:38 <Alberth> people complain about the small gui anyway :p
18:52:03 <frosch123> if you can convince the devs that it is actually correct :p they are all european, so have no idea about medieval units
18:52:47 <frosch123> except peter lives in a mediaval kingdom
18:53:41 <slower> oki, could you suggest me something other not that complicated which would be most helpful to development?
18:54:03 <Alberth> any area that you like in particular?
18:55:19 <Alberth> besides the todo list, I don't think we have things that are useful from the top of out hat
18:56:07 <slower> there not any area I'd know about I wanna do...
18:56:14 <Supercheese> Tractive effort in tons? :S
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18:56:51 <Supercheese> no, wait, just tons
18:57:06 <Supercheese> Why don't we just stick with kN :P
18:57:23 <Alberth> they are random numbers anyway :p
18:57:44 <frosch123> slower: see, that's what i meant :) the first non-european to comment no that task, says it should stay at kn :p
18:57:54 <slower> well, do you know if the task with crash log is still waiting to be done?
18:58:08 <Supercheese> I thought trainset authors looked them up, they're documented values no?
18:58:18 <slower> oki, as Europan I trust him :)
18:59:47 <Supercheese> Wikipedia does use lb_f though
19:00:08 <Supercheese> Tractive effort 37,397 lbf (166.35 kN)
19:00:51 <Supercheese> I'm pretty used to kN in OTTD
19:01:02 <Supercheese> lbf would be strange
19:03:47 <Supercheese> Why don't we properly implement the American unit system, all lengths are measured in Football Fields
19:04:37 <Supercheese> with the occasional City Bus unit of length
19:05:20 <Supercheese> volumes that are sufficiently large are measured in Olympic-Sized Swimming Pools
19:05:36 <Prof_Frink> Nah, implement Reg units.
19:09:01 <Alberth> let's just remove all units; the only important thing is how big the numbers are relatively to each other anyway :)
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19:11:40 <slower> oki, so this task is unimportant too... what about the task from todo list with crash log? I have not found on fs nor on forum that someone is working on it..
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19:14:56 <frosch123> you mean the newsitem thingie?
19:15:07 <frosch123> i doubt anyone worked on that
19:15:36 <frosch123> it's more about the idea how to print the newsmesages without risking to crash while doing
19:15:53 <frosch123> maybe, by just printing the textid and raw parameters or so :p
19:18:01 <slower> printing play text should be OK, but I'd follow your advices. Or if you can advice me some other task to get started...
19:19:27 <Supercheese> RoadTypes would be nice :P
19:19:36 <frosch123> i can just point at the todo list :)
19:20:05 <Supercheese> So I can immediately abuse them for subways :U
19:20:27 <frosch123> but whatevery you do. usually the hard task is to figure out what is the right way to do something
19:20:45 <frosch123> once you know what nees doing, implementing is easy
19:21:25 <Supercheese> If you want something easy-ish, you could try adding a new cheat to the cheat menu, say, something to disable to loading speed penalty when the train is longer than the station
19:21:42 <Supercheese> only requires disabling one chunk of code in economy.cpp
19:21:55 <Supercheese> disable the loading*
19:22:41 <slower> cool, that looks good for me, does it have task on FS, or somewhere, so I can get it assigned?
19:22:55 <frosch123> slower: oh, i can also advise you to do something which you are interested yourself, and would also use on your own :)
19:22:56 <Supercheese> I don't think there's an FS entry for it, I just thought it up :P
19:23:07 <Supercheese> Because I would use it :D
19:23:32 <Supercheese> Or, well, I do use it, but I just hac- I mean, commented out the code block and compiled a modified version
19:24:05 <Supercheese> I've not messed with the cheat menu code, though, I wonder where it is
19:24:36 <Supercheese> cheat_gui.cpp, conveniently named
19:25:51 <frosch123> i would expect it to be quite messy, with custom drawing and such :p
19:28:08 <Bad_Brett> do you know any girls who enjoy TT? i have several female friends who love Rollercoaster Tycoon, but for some reason they don't seem to enjoy TT. even my gf, who loves my work, refuses to play TT :P
19:28:21 <Supercheese> my sister doesn't like it much, unfortunately
19:28:37 <Supercheese> I tried to show her how cool it was, but to little avail :S
19:29:00 <Supercheese> She didn't grow up on Thomas the Tank Engine like I did, perhaps that's why :P
19:29:08 <frosch123> Alberth: can you transform that into advertisement to join freerct development?
19:30:06 <slower> well. I'm a bit confused, what's the workflow if I decide to do something? Is there anyone responsible for the code? or some group of people? So I'd know if I do something usefull or not...
19:30:21 <Supercheese> 1) Modify some code
19:30:27 <Supercheese> 2) Test that the code works and is bug-free
19:30:32 <Supercheese> 3) Post the .diff on Flyspray
19:30:44 <frosch123> slower: nope, that's the general problem with ottd development
19:30:51 <Supercheese> feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but that's my impression
19:30:58 <frosch123> most things get stuck in discussion of details
19:31:32 <frosch123> so the best method is to do something which you like to use yourself
19:32:13 <slower> that's what I wanted to know, thx :)
19:32:37 <Alberth> frosch123: :D something like get them hooked on freerct, to demonstrate the fun that strategic games are? :)
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19:33:06 <Supercheese> There's also stuff about coding style
19:33:11 <frosch123> many girls play rct - become a freerct dev!
19:33:18 <slower> I've noticed that, gonna read it soon
19:33:29 <Alberth> frosch123: I should hire you! :)
19:33:34 <Supercheese> I just try and emulate the existing code style, should work eh
19:33:45 <Alberth> (for the advertisements)
19:33:56 <frosch123> Alberth: except i never placed rct, and have no idea about it :p
19:34:16 <Supercheese> You don't need to know anything about the thing to advertise it
19:34:23 <Supercheese> just look at any marketing department
19:34:55 <Alberth> it's like openttd, except the trains do circles, and you only have pax
19:37:37 <frosch123> hmm, i could add different types of animal cargo
19:42:39 <Bad_Brett> RCT is a bit like Minecraft actually...
19:43:07 <Bad_Brett> you spend most of the time designing stuff rather than playing the game
19:43:30 <frosch123> is there time progression in rct?
19:43:40 <frosch123> or is any day the same?
19:44:50 <Bad_Brett> i don't remember... i think there's some progression
19:45:10 <Bad_Brett> you can get new rides and stuff
19:45:13 <frosch123> like faster coasters?
19:45:20 <frosch123> or different loopings?
19:45:26 <frosch123> or older customers? :p
19:45:48 <Supercheese> Or is that far, far too many years' worth of time progression?
19:45:49 <frosch123> oh, like maglev coasters?
19:45:50 <Bad_Brett> something like that... there's a lot of stuff to build
19:46:02 <frosch123> on tubular silicon tracks:p
19:46:21 <Bad_Brett> the games are much shorter than in TT
19:47:00 <frosch123> make the map bigger
19:47:04 <Bad_Brett> you have goal... either you mess up and have to restart, or you win
19:47:30 <frosch123> ottd was never about winning
19:47:54 <frosch123> yeah, that makes rct very different
19:48:20 <Bad_Brett> it's a bit like city builder
19:48:35 <Bad_Brett> achieve the goal within in 10 years
19:49:55 <Bad_Brett> anyway, another example... almost every girl I've met who is into computer games play the sims... yet, i've only met guys who actually play the sims without cheats
19:52:31 <Supercheese> I don't like the Sims
19:52:55 <frosch123> you prefer cheating in real life? :p
19:55:56 <frosch123> anyway, my sister just played whatever i played
19:56:26 <frosch123> although in civ 1 her strategy was mostly to build diplomats instead of combat units, and buy every city :p
19:56:55 <frosch123> and i think she played broodwar only for the "go, go, go" of the marines :)
19:57:31 <Bad_Brett> i remember the first time i played civ 1
19:57:32 <Alberth> frosch123: you pay for 'research' to get new types of coasters, stalls, and so on
19:57:35 <Bad_Brett> my brother showed it to me
19:57:51 <Bad_Brett> i didn't know that i could change production
19:58:06 <Bad_Brett> so i conquered the world with hundreds of militias
19:58:18 <Alberth> and there is time, as in 'seasons', year 1, year 2, ... and challenges like X visitors in 4 years
19:58:23 <Bad_Brett> it was on chieftain of course
19:58:41 <frosch123> oh, yeah. when i was around 9 or 10 or so, i found civ 1 with some friends on the computer of one of my friend's dad
19:59:00 <frosch123> we mostly moved around with the starting militia
19:59:09 <Supercheese> I think my first civ was Civ2, I can't recall ever playing Civ1
19:59:16 <frosch123> and were surprised when some other guy had two units
19:59:48 <frosch123> Bad_Brett: you won with a single city?
20:00:21 <Bad_Brett> i rememeber getting a 153% score in Civ1 when i was was 7... my brother's friend (who was 14 at the time) was devastated that he couldn't match my score... good times
20:01:24 <Bad_Brett> nah i don't think i finished that game with only militias... after an hour my brother came in and taught me how to build settlers and chariots
20:01:26 <frosch123> it got boring though when i figured out how to change the unit stats with a hex editor
20:02:06 <frosch123> replacing the militia with icbm which could fly accross the whole map made it kind of pointless
20:02:13 <frosch123> but i think i learned something from that :p
20:02:19 <Bad_Brett> civ 4 is, by far, the best imo
20:03:11 <Bad_Brett> and civ 2 is basically a polished version of civ1
20:03:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i probably played civ2 the most
20:04:31 <Eddi|zuHause> in col i played around a lot with the unit stats and production yields, which could easily be set by text editor
20:04:43 <Bad_Brett> yeah, i played it to death when it was released... it was a fantastic game, but the series still had the ICS issue
20:04:45 <Supercheese> Civ4 is certainly the most moddable
20:04:52 <Supercheese> I've made my fair share of mods for it...
20:05:12 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: i never figured out how to increase the gameplay time in col
20:05:32 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that was probably hardcoded somewhere
20:05:37 <Bad_Brett> Col was so underrated... there was a lot of micromanagement, but there were so many ways to play it
20:05:39 <frosch123> so i cheated to start with 30 units to get stuff faster
20:06:04 <Eddi|zuHause> civ4col was such a disappointment...
20:06:11 <frosch123> i think the micromanagement is what makes col unique
20:06:29 <frosch123> but the pathfinder is bad that trading routes do not work
20:06:40 <Eddi|zuHause> but there is a totally great mod now that makes the game actually fun
20:06:49 <frosch123> before i got into ottd, i considered writing a col/openttd mixture
20:07:04 <frosch123> basically col, but without combats, and with proper trading/transport
20:07:09 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, traderoutes need some serious macromanagement
20:07:10 <Bad_Brett> i rage quit civcol when i invested in 4-5 universities
20:07:24 <Bad_Brett> just to discover that it was just a waste of time
20:07:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Bad_Brett: what do you mean?
20:07:38 <Bad_Brett> Civ5 sucks so badly... oh my
20:07:39 <Supercheese> I haven't played it in a long time, though I doubt the expansion(s?) improved on it much
20:07:56 <Eddi|zuHause> it plays much different from civ4
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20:08:00 <Supercheese> 1 unit per space is weird
20:08:15 <Eddi|zuHause> it is not that weird
20:08:17 <Supercheese> lack of mod-ability sucks hard
20:08:28 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a 5 unit per tile mod somewhere
20:08:40 <Bad_Brett> Eddi: in CivCol, the time to number of turns to educate a colonist increased every time... so, if you educated 10 carpenters, it would take like 50 turns to educate a Statesman
20:08:40 <Supercheese> I recall it being painfully limited when it first came out
20:08:45 <Eddi|zuHause> but it doesn't work in cities, afair
20:09:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Bad_Brett: ah yes, there are mods that fix this
20:09:13 <Bad_Brett> it was a much better strategy to sell muskets to the indians and buy all the experts from europe
20:09:30 <Eddi|zuHause> Bad_Brett: try "the authentic colonization mod" or so
20:09:33 <Bad_Brett> which kind of ruined the feeling of becoming independent
20:11:09 <Bad_Brett> i tried some of those mods (perhaps they've gotten better), but i still thought that the original game was more fun somehow
20:12:55 <Bad_Brett> have they fixed the issues with the indians?
20:13:32 <frosch123> he, talk about political correctness :p
20:13:33 <Eddi|zuHause> some, which issues?
20:13:48 <Bad_Brett> in the original games, there were very good reasons to keep your neighbours happy
20:14:09 <Bad_Brett> you could educate an unlimited number of farmers/fishersmans, which was extremely useful
20:14:30 <Bad_Brett> in CivCol, they were just annoying obstacles
20:14:50 <frosch123> i always hoped there would be a way to disguise as another european, and then attack the indians near their settlements
20:15:39 <frosch123> indians were also the only way to get rid of small settlements which had "walls"
20:15:55 <Bad_Brett> hahaha yeah that one sucked
20:16:01 <Eddi|zuHause> if they like you enough, they dissolve their settlements
20:16:09 <Eddi|zuHause> when you get too much influence
20:16:18 <Bad_Brett> when you got the FF who automatically put a stockade on all colonies with the size of 3
20:16:27 <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise they get more and more annoyed the more you expand
20:16:35 <frosch123> yeah, that's why i always get that FF last :p
20:17:19 <Bad_Brett> oh my... i hated it when the other europeans built a colony one square from one of mine
20:17:34 <Bad_Brett> and managed to build a stockade before i could conquer it
20:18:46 <Bad_Brett> one thing that i loved about the original col was the randomness of resources...
20:18:50 <Bad_Brett> it may sound like a bad thing
20:19:17 <frosch123> it was not particulary random, was it?
20:19:23 <Bad_Brett> but it there was something really exciting about it
20:19:29 <frosch123> it was mostly about climatic zones
20:19:38 <Eddi|zuHause> what i always find weird in civ4col was that selling one good changes the prices of completely different goods
20:19:40 <Bad_Brett> well, random may be the wrong word
20:19:58 <Bad_Brett> "hidden" might be a better word to describe it
20:20:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Bad_Brett: you mean like you carve down a forest and there appears a new special good?
20:20:34 <frosch123> anyway, proper cargo transport is still what i miss most from col
20:20:36 <Bad_Brett> you knew that even a dense forest could contain sources of wheat, prime cotton and so on if you improved the terrain
20:21:03 <frosch123> i hate it that they added the custom house to circumvent the issue
20:21:15 <frosch123> it always results in making every town at sea
20:21:25 <frosch123> and just making every town independent and sell all crap to europe
20:21:36 <frosch123> because wagons and ships just cannot transport the amount
20:21:47 <frosch123> and all need manual navigation
20:22:22 <Bad_Brett> i remember getting an early copy of Col... it still had the factory bug
20:22:26 <Eddi|zuHause> you can have automatic traderoutes
20:22:40 <Eddi|zuHause> in both col and civ4col
20:22:47 <frosch123> in original col traderoutes do not work at all
20:22:48 <Bad_Brett> which allowed you to produce 24 tools/rum/cloths/cigars/coats without any raw material :)
20:22:49 <Eddi|zuHause> but setting them up is tedious
20:22:52 <frosch123> they have only four stops
20:23:11 <frosch123> and either the pathfinder breaks, or the load/unload gets out of sync
20:24:14 <frosch123> sometimes they loaded an entirely different cargo
20:24:20 <frosch123> and then never unloaded it .p
20:24:23 <Bad_Brett> the thing is, that gold is quite useless in the original Col... you use it to buy ships and cannons... which you use to get even more gold... so when the custom house becomes available, it isn't that useful
20:24:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i liked how in civ4col the liberty bells increase your efficiency, i.e. you produce more tools from the same amount of iron
20:24:56 <frosch123> that's also the case in original col
20:25:07 <frosch123> you get bonus production for 50% and 100% in town
20:25:19 <Eddi|zuHause> no, there it just made you produce more tools for more iron
20:25:48 <Eddi|zuHause> you got +1 production on 50% and +2 production on 100%
20:25:55 <Eddi|zuHause> but it also increased consumption
20:26:01 <Bad_Brett> yyeah... eddi is right
20:26:01 <Eddi|zuHause> so the conversion rate is the same
20:26:13 <frosch123> well, i think the most important part of the production bonus was always food
20:26:26 <frosch123> which allowed you to employ more people
20:26:29 <Bad_Brett> food was indeed the most important thing
20:26:54 <Bad_Brett> the best strategy was to settle in the north/south, near the incas or the aztecs
20:27:21 <Bad_Brett> send every colonist to the capitol and turn him into a farmer/fisherman
20:27:28 <frosch123> indians have specific locations?
20:27:43 <frosch123> i always thought they were random
20:27:48 <Bad_Brett> store the 75 food you get on a ship until you get 200
20:28:00 <Bad_Brett> and sell the silver you get
20:28:24 <Bad_Brett> the incas are almost always to the west
20:28:35 <Bad_Brett> but i was thinking of the food production
20:28:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i think they tried to distribute them roughly along the north/south as they were historically
20:28:45 <Bad_Brett> which is much greater in the north/south
20:30:26 <Bad_Brett> anyway.. the incas and aztecs will give always give you 75-current_amount_of_food_in_colony... so if you store the food on ships, you'll get insane amounts of food
20:30:51 <Bad_Brett> combine that with unlimited farmers
20:31:02 <Bad_Brett> and you might very well break the game
20:31:45 <frosch123> how can you get insane amount of food, when the biggest ship can only hold 600 units?
20:32:00 <Bad_Brett> because when you get 200 you unload it
20:32:04 <frosch123> and there are at most 255 moving vehicles in the game :p
20:32:20 <frosch123> 200 food means new colonist?
20:32:29 <frosch123> i always thought they appear at random
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20:32:46 <frosch123> and got annoyed that it mostly happens in later years when you have enough uneducated guys anways
20:32:56 <frosch123> while people are rare in the beginning
20:33:16 <Bad_Brett> nope... it might be wise to build 1-2 early wagon trains just to store food
20:33:25 <frosch123> hmm, i always breeded horses to sell them
20:33:29 <frosch123> maybe i should breed humans instead
20:33:48 <Bad_Brett> i never sell horses, they are too important
20:34:03 <Eddi|zuHause> they don't give a good price anyway
20:34:09 <Bad_Brett> sell muskets instead
20:34:42 <Eddi|zuHause> horse breeding works slightly different in civ4col
20:34:59 <Bad_Brett> yeah i know... you have ranchers
20:35:22 <frosch123> Bad_Brett: muskets are somewhat higher on the tech tree :p
20:35:50 <frosch123> i just used horses to get rid of excess food
20:36:06 <Bad_Brett> i'm sorry to say it, but that's a really stupid strategy :P
20:36:10 <frosch123> but now i learned that there is actually use in food :p
20:36:34 <Bad_Brett> well... it's basically the key to success :)
20:38:09 <Eddi|zuHause> you learn something new after 20 years :p
20:38:32 <frosch123> i wonder whether i will play col tomorrow all day, instead of coding ottd .p
20:39:08 <frosch123> and i thought i would get to ottd again, since i finished katawa
20:39:25 <Eddi|zuHause> what i hated about col was the habit of the AI surrounding your cities
20:39:52 <frosch123> i always avoided combat
20:40:02 <frosch123> only played for production and money
20:40:10 <Bad_Brett> they would still surround you
20:40:20 <Bad_Brett> and occasionally do sneak attack :P
20:40:29 <frosch123> so, i just played easiest difficulty, islands and lots of ships to sink anyone approaching
20:42:33 <Eddi|zuHause> civ4col is evil if you manage to make your pirate strong enough so it matches a frigate in strength
20:42:43 <Eddi|zuHause> through promotions
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20:43:42 <Eddi|zuHause> don't play on too hard difficulty, the AI gets so much money bonus it just spams out ships :p
20:43:55 <frosch123> in original col i think pirates were always stronger than frigates
20:44:02 <frosch123> just because they were so much faster
20:44:11 <frosch123> they always escaped when being attacked
20:44:23 <frosch123> and with drake they usally also won when attacking
20:44:31 <Bad_Brett> i think that was completely at random...
20:44:37 <frosch123> but i think if they lost, they usally sank :p
20:45:05 <Bad_Brett> those mechanics were rather weird
20:45:15 <Bad_Brett> it was impossible to lose all your ships
20:45:19 <frosch123> but that did not matter since i dumped all money into pirate ships :p
20:45:30 <Bad_Brett> and if you invested in like 10 frigates, you would begin losing to caravels
20:46:04 <Bad_Brett> so the more ships you owned, the weaker they became
20:47:02 <Bad_Brett> which also meant that it was possible to sink 4-5 Man-O-Wars with a single frigate
20:47:42 <Bad_Brett> there was some kind of robin hood mechanics there
20:51:31 <Bad_Brett> off topic: something I hate about OpenTTD is how the probabilities work... if i set the same probability to two different industry layouts, they game _should_ fist decide how many industries that should be built and then find the appropriate locations
20:52:42 <Bad_Brett> but, if you're using an advanced layout with slopes or something like that, there will be fewer locations to build that industry and therefore you have to set a higher probability to compensate for that
20:53:20 <Bad_Brett> this makes it rather tricky to get a good balance
20:53:20 <Alberth> probabilities for industry layout?
20:53:41 <Alberth> afaik you only have probabilities per industry type
20:53:57 <Bad_Brett> ok, houses is a better example then
20:55:13 <Alberth> the main problem is that there is no information why an industry cannot be build, for terraforming problems or otherwise. If the former, there is no information what the industry actually needs
20:55:32 <Alberth> so the game cannot do landscaping to make it fit
20:55:54 <andythenorth> industry probability is a thorny issue
20:57:56 <Bad_Brett> but the problem is, everytime i change something in the location_check callback, i notice how the number of generated industries are changed, sometimes quite drastically
20:58:51 <Alberth> there are other problems too
20:58:54 <Bad_Brett> even if i know that there's a 100 places on the map where the industry could be build without modifying the terrain
20:59:27 <Alberth> newgrf industries have too much control over themselves
20:59:50 <Alberth> they decide everything except opening
21:00:24 <Bad_Brett> it doesn't work that way in the original game?
21:00:51 <Alberth> so while the game engine knows some type should be reduced in numbers, it cannot close them
21:01:25 <Alberth> yes it does, and it works, if you start from 1 fixed year, with 1 fixed industry set
21:02:10 <Alberth> note that original industries close quite quickly, so you get a constant flow of new industries
21:02:29 <Alberth> which gives the engine a chance to balance things out
21:02:33 <Bad_Brett> is there any cure for this?
21:03:00 <Alberth> change newgrf specs, imho
21:03:55 <frosch123> anyway, about closure the loudest opinion is to never close stuff :p
21:04:24 <frosch123> and thus most grf implement something like no closure
21:04:32 <frosch123> and most users request ottd settings to disable closure
21:04:41 <frosch123> so, i don't think there is a solution in that direction :p
21:05:00 <Alberth> for default industries it makes sense as they never change shape, and you don't get new ones, except the oilrig
21:05:52 <Alberth> frosch123: just like disabling random introduction dates because dates are not kept in the right order :p
21:06:13 <Alberth> hmm, is that in the todos? :)
21:06:39 <Alberth> disabling random intro dates of newgrf engines
21:06:50 <frosch123> it's not something i would like to put into the todos
21:06:51 <Alberth> or rather, not doing that
21:07:07 <frosch123> it's mostly about finding a solution that works
21:07:12 <Alberth> but instead fix the order of introduction
21:07:14 <frosch123> which is nothing for a beginner :)
21:07:20 <Bad_Brett> but another strange thing... some of my houses can only be constructed if there's a road tile to, let's say, the south. since most houses are surrounded by roads, there should be countless locations that works, but I still have to turn up the probability to a much higher values than on houses without this restriction
21:07:43 <frosch123> and the discussion i had with michi_cc last year (which i believe is linked from the fs task) showed that it is pretty non-trivial :p
21:08:11 <Alberth> oh, it does not seem too complicated at first sight
21:08:28 <frosch123> i think the problems start with preview vehicles :)
21:08:54 <frosch123> originally i only wanted to keep the order of vehicles by keeping the order when randomising
21:09:05 <Alberth> let's disable that, I never use it anyway :p
21:09:08 <frosch123> but previews might imply introdution of other vehicles as well
21:13:53 <Eddi|zuHause> what about the callback i proposed? every month, for each not-yet-available vehicle, you run this callback and it returns a bitmask which companies should get a prototype offer of this vehicle, and then again which companies get this vehicle without prototype offer
21:14:29 <frosch123> it would allow the realism grfs to disable random introduction
21:14:34 <frosch123> and i do not like to support that :p
21:14:57 <frosch123> realism grfs break everything that is fun about ottd
21:15:04 <Eddi|zuHause> who cares what you like :p
21:17:23 <Eddi|zuHause> ok, then different approach: the callback is only run when a vehicle is introduced (prototype or final), for each other vehicle
21:17:35 <Eddi|zuHause> or rather for each vehicle
21:18:06 <Eddi|zuHause> this would still allow solving the MU wagon issue
21:19:32 <Eddi|zuHause> you get some dependency issue
21:19:44 <peter1138> Pikka, you must be very upset that your weren't nominated
21:19:49 <Bad_Brett> would such a callback allow different companies to have access to different vehicles?
21:20:29 <Bad_Brett> oh my, that sounds really exciting
21:20:52 <Bad_Brett> that is a feature i requested a couple of years ago
21:20:59 <Eddi|zuHause> afaik, the game supports that already, but there is no newgrf-y way to set the bitmask
21:21:10 <Eddi|zuHause> and the game only sets "1 or all"
21:23:36 <Bad_Brett> so for example, if I rely heavily on coal transport, would it be possible to increase the chances of getting a good freight engine early?
21:24:08 <Eddi|zuHause> unlikely, because that's data the NewGRF does not have any access to
21:24:41 <Bad_Brett> if I accept a prototype but don't use it
21:25:12 <Eddi|zuHause> don't open this can of worms :p
21:25:52 <frosch123> Bad_Brett: you get punished by not getting offered any more for some time
21:26:02 <frosch123> so, if you don't like them, just always accept them :)
21:27:11 <Bad_Brett> but it would be cool if it actually was possible to miss certain vehicles if you made the producers angry :P
21:27:47 <Bad_Brett> manufacturers may be a better word
21:28:05 <frosch123> most producers do not stop selling stuff when they are angry about their customers
21:28:14 <frosch123> they rather sell them stuff they do no need
21:28:38 <Bad_Brett> "realism grfs break everything that is fun about ottd"
21:29:10 <frosch123> though i heard about an innkeeper who banned customers from his inn when they disliked the appetizer
21:29:12 <V453000> I should quote that everywhere
21:29:57 <andythenorth> NUTS is very realistic
21:30:28 <Eddi|zuHause> there was an "all you can eat buffet" operator who banned his most frequent customers
21:31:13 <Eddi|zuHause> because they ate too much, so it ruined his business plan
21:31:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i guess that's similar to providers banning "power users"
21:32:30 <andythenorth> I'm going to make Squid 2
21:33:29 <Eddi|zuHause> can you start squid 2 if you never released squid?
21:33:29 <andythenorth> I'm getting killed by NoCarGoal again in single player :P
21:33:44 <andythenorth> always I lose badly to it
21:33:52 <Bad_Brett> what is squid? never heard of it
21:34:41 <frosch123> squid is what you get when you fill fish with onion
21:34:43 <frosch123> or something like that
21:35:14 <andythenorth> like UKRS 2 is dead
21:35:46 <frosch123> Bad_Brett: don't worry :) andy did fish 2, squid 1, next squid 2... somewhen he will come back to fish :p
21:36:24 <frosch123> is cray related to clay?
21:37:14 <frosch123> hmm, that could work as ekranoplane
21:38:18 <andythenorth> NoCarGoal SP 40k per cargo, 15 years
21:38:57 <Bad_Brett> what does FISH stand for anyway... Fantastic, Impressive Ships & Hovercrafts?
21:40:21 <frosch123> though i am recently excited about srif
21:40:24 <V453000> firs is relatively stupid? :P
21:45:22 <Bad_Brett> full industry replacement set... at least i thought so
21:45:31 <Bad_Brett> now i'm not so sure anymore
21:45:35 <frosch123> "full" is certainly wrong
21:45:53 <frosch123> take a closer look at "fish" again :)
21:47:02 <Bad_Brett> "FIRS Is Releasing Something"
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21:47:32 <Eddi|zuHause> afair it was really "full" in the beginning, then it was changed to make it recursive
21:48:31 <andythenorth> what does CHIPS un-recurse to?
21:48:49 <frosch123> andythenorth: "i am hungry" or something like that
21:49:20 <andythenorth> also goes well with FIRS
21:49:26 <andythenorth> and maybe FISH :P
21:49:34 <Bad_Brett> hai doggie... can i have a dozen red roses pleeaase?
21:51:21 <frosch123> did someone just steal your keyboard?
21:52:08 <Bad_Brett> naah... it's a "the room" reference... when someone writes "hai" i feel the urge to write something like that
21:55:01 <Bad_Brett> that movie is so hilarious, especially when you're a bit tipsy
22:09:16 <andythenorth> FIRS Tropic Basic economy sucks
22:09:19 <andythenorth> better rework that
22:23:42 <andythenorth> beaten by NoCarGoal again
22:24:05 <Supercheese> you're not using cheat-y enough grfs :P
22:24:41 <Supercheese> like that one grf that lets you make station ratings always 100% ;)
22:26:16 <andythenorth> FIRS industries cost way too much to fund
22:26:24 <andythenorth> maybe that should change
22:26:54 <Supercheese> Man, cirdan is a beast at fixing bugs
22:27:05 <Supercheese> I have yet another binary to compile
22:28:44 <andythenorth> FIRS Tropic is wrong somehow
22:28:56 <andythenorth> maybe I should re-introduce water chain?
22:29:01 <andythenorth> and cut something else?
22:29:12 <Supercheese> I've not tested tropic basic
22:30:09 <andythenorth> it's not so much bad
22:31:57 <Supercheese> zillion industries
22:32:19 <andythenorth> it's not right for GS
22:32:20 <Supercheese> "Less is not more, more is more"
22:32:31 <andythenorth> and it has issues on small maps
22:32:46 <Supercheese> True, you can't really 128x128 with FIRS full
22:33:07 <Supercheese> even 256.256 has broken chains fairly often
22:33:23 <andythenorth> not so for Basic :)
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22:34:11 <Bad_Brett> andy, what is your opinion on closing industries?
22:34:45 <andythenorth> ask Pikka for his opinion :)
22:34:50 <Bad_Brett> even if they are unused?
22:34:51 <andythenorth> it is contrary to mine
22:35:09 <andythenorth> apart from clearing map space, what's the gameplay benefit of closing?
22:35:24 <michi_cc> Closing all the time is annoying, but no closing at all makes for very boring networks without any change ever.
22:35:37 <Supercheese> old industries close to make room for new ones, like FIRS Smithies, Iron Works, etc.
22:35:51 <Supercheese> Industry "Upgrades"
22:35:57 <Bad_Brett> you have do adapt... you can't just build a giant railroad and leave it running for 100 years
22:35:59 <Supercheese> of course I disable closure
22:36:09 <Supercheese> and just magic-bulldoze old industies :P
22:36:46 <Bad_Brett> and also, it can reflect history... for example, a car factory makes little sense before 1886
22:36:47 <Supercheese> or just divert the lines away and keep them for museum-esque purposes
22:37:15 <Supercheese> Bad_Brett just don't let car factories spawn before 1886 then
22:37:27 <Bad_Brett> hehe yeah i realised it was a bad example
22:37:52 <andythenorth> everything to do with date based closure is stinky
22:38:09 <andythenorth> shall I cop out and put a port in FIRS tropic?
22:38:15 <andythenorth> worked for Arctic
22:38:51 <andythenorth> not big or clever
22:39:28 <Bad_Brett> i was thinking more like this: date -> worse payment rate -> less transportion -> less production -> closure
22:39:28 <andythenorth> it needs something interesting
22:39:46 <andythenorth> but also I need bed
22:41:17 <Bad_Brett> 'cheese, are you still there?
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22:51:47 <Bad_Brett> hmm... OpenTTD is once again running at 40-50% CPU... I don't like it at all
23:10:14 <Eddi|zuHause> you use too many of the wrong callbacks?
23:12:00 <Supercheese> don't call distance to nearest town all the time, that's cpu-intensive IIRC
23:12:32 <Supercheese> Not that I expect you're doing that, but still
23:22:39 <Eddi|zuHause> well the industry could cache that value
23:23:00 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not like the distance to towns changes very often :p
23:23:14 <Supercheese> Sure, I'm not an expert on industry stuffs :)
23:26:49 <Eddi|zuHause> it's just few steps needed: 1) add a new member to the industry struct, 2) fill it with a value on industry funding, 3) fill it with the value in afterloadgame, 4) return the value in the newgrf code, 5( recalculate all the values on funding a town
23:29:20 <Bad_Brett> Eddi: probably some wrong callbacks
23:32:09 <Bad_Brett> or too simply too many animations...
23:33:39 <Bad_Brett> the CPU is at 0% on the z1 and z2 zoom levels where the sprites are much smaller
23:53:05 <Eddi|zuHause> so your sprite cache is too small?
23:59:06 *** Celestar_ has joined #openttd
continue to next day ⏵
