IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-02-28
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06:31:57 <Supercheese> Hmm, can you use switches/if/other ways to select between replace blocks in NML? E.g. to make base sprites year-dependent?
06:32:50 <Supercheese> Seems like NARoads does that
06:33:24 <Rubidium> yes-ish... but... it depends on the time-of-load, or for network games the time-of-start
06:33:55 <Supercheese> I recall problems about the replacements not dynamically updating as the year progresses, but requiring a save/reload
06:34:23 <Supercheese> that seems like a minor problem, though
06:36:23 <Rubidium> anyhow, it's not much more different than changing blocks of sprites for different climates, but instead of the climate check you do a year check
06:39:50 <Supercheese> Checking current_year
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06:40:30 <Supercheese> All righty, easy enough
06:42:09 <Supercheese> How about bridges?
06:42:27 <Supercheese> Oh wait no NML bridges
06:43:28 <Supercheese> Hmm, maybe m4nfo does bridges
06:43:54 <Supercheese> Doesn't look like it
06:43:54 <tracerpt> there is life in here
06:44:09 <Supercheese> Oh, maybe it does
06:44:23 <Supercheese> Just no documentation? @_@
06:51:51 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r25054 trunk/config.lib (2013-02-28 06:51:45 UTC)
06:51:52 <DorpsGek> -Document: the *FLAGS_BUILD in configure
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06:55:31 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Commit by rubidium :: r25055 /branches/1.3 (5 files in 3 dirs) (2013-02-28 06:55:22 UTC)
06:55:32 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: [1.3] -Backport from trunk:
06:55:33 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: - Fix: Refactor Script Debug GUI to only set widget states in OnInvalidateData [FS#5490] (r25052)
06:55:34 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: - Fix: Do not let gcc include files from the "standard C" include directories; newer gcc/libc seem to otherwise automatically include some header files at the top of the preprocessed nfo files which causes NFOrenum/GRFcodec to make invalid assumptions about the NFO version (r25050)
06:55:35 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: - Fix: Minimise gaps feature caused removal to only happen at the signal build interval instead of the implicit interval of 1 [FS#5479] (r25038)
07:19:39 <peter1138> Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 59th day of Chaos in the YOLD 3179
07:19:56 <peter1138> i'm so glad that we still have this very useful tool
07:24:50 <Rubidium> ah... now I know why the pope stops on the 28th of february. Pope Hilarius stopped on the 28th of february as well
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09:34:43 <andythenorth> it's midnight somewhere
09:35:04 <andythenorth> peter1138: is it done yet, your secret?
09:35:24 <andythenorth> none of my stuff is done, ever :P
09:35:41 <Supercheese> I distinctly recall that being 'done'
09:37:05 <Supercheese> Well, perhaps before Jan 15 it was ;)
09:37:10 <andythenorth> also no grain cargo support
09:37:30 <andythenorth> maybe a silo of some kind
09:37:56 <Supercheese> TBH, I don't like open piles of cargo around, I mostly use buildings/tanks/bins/etc.
09:38:06 <Supercheese> Stacks of boxes are fine though, for goods
09:38:36 <Supercheese> but the CHIPS tiles blend so well
09:39:25 <andythenorth> I want an indicator of too much cargo waiting
09:39:35 <andythenorth> grain silo, with overflow on the ground
09:39:36 <Supercheese> Well, reviewing this game, actually the piles for stuff is used a lot
09:39:44 <Supercheese> coal, iron ore, wood
09:39:56 <V453000> Somebody was making a CHIPNUTS enhancement, but Somebody hasnt been seen in a while :d
09:40:12 <Supercheese> There was one cargo I didn't like sitting around in piles, hmm
09:40:35 <Supercheese> D'oh, invalid chunk size
09:40:41 <andythenorth> V453000: just fork it
09:40:45 <andythenorth> it's a simple set ;)
09:41:07 <Supercheese> Now I have to remember which version I used :V
09:41:18 <andythenorth> I like your graphics, but I don't know if they fit what I want for NUTS, and we could debate it, but then we're wasting time talking, not making :D
09:41:25 <andythenorth> NUTS / CHIPS /s :P
09:42:23 <andythenorth> basically CHIPS is the only thing I've made that I'm happy with and I don't want to unpick it ;)
09:45:25 <Supercheese> Ah, CHIPS iron ore piles
09:45:37 <Supercheese> they unfortunately don't match ISR (and other set) iron ore piles
09:46:10 <Supercheese> Scratch other sets, I guess only ISR
09:46:38 <planetmaker> andythenorth, adding NUTS cargos surely could be done directly in CHIPS, no?
09:46:47 <planetmaker> i.e. having the graphics supplied?
09:47:44 <Supercheese> lumber sprites are same as ISR
09:48:53 <andythenorth> planetmaker: they could, but then choices have to be made
09:49:00 <Supercheese> seems like it was just iron ore I didn't like
09:49:11 <Supercheese> of course just my opinion :P
09:49:21 <andythenorth> making choices is work ;)
09:49:31 <Supercheese> anyway, good night
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14:04:42 <peter1138> hmm, i see, a fair amount of comings & goings
14:10:00 <wakou2> Do you know Peter, why electric trains are not available in arctic climate?
14:19:32 <peter1138> that's how TTD was made
14:20:00 <planetmaker> wakou2, "just because". If you use NewGRFs which supply electrical trains in arctic, then they will be available
14:20:18 <planetmaker> by default electrical trains are *only* available in temperate
14:25:31 <wakou2> planetmaker: TY, I was just wondering..
14:38:28 <dihedral> and we do not want the electricity to freeze, do we now
14:39:52 <goodger> one of the supply cables for the railway here snapped due to extreme cold a couple of months ago
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15:31:18 <gynter> NewGRF's are useful only for modifying graphical content?
15:34:39 <planetmaker> GRF = game ressource file
15:35:07 <planetmaker> townnames are NewGRFs
15:35:12 <planetmaker> costs are newgrfs
15:35:14 <gynter> Not according to the wiki, that's why I asked.
15:35:22 <planetmaker> production behaviour of industries are newgrfs
15:35:25 <gynter> "NewGRF stands for New Graphics Resource File"
15:35:51 <planetmaker> :-) That's why I prefer to call it "Game Resource File"
15:36:00 <planetmaker> Graphics Resource File is too misleading
15:36:22 <planetmaker> please feel free to change that
15:36:43 <gynter> My main question would be, that if I would like to make a guid system, would it be possible to do it via NewGRF instead of modifying the client?
15:37:10 <gynter> Globally unique identifier
15:37:27 <planetmaker> what's that in this context?
15:37:41 <planetmaker> what do you want to identify?
15:37:50 <gynter> To identify the client for the current server
15:38:14 <planetmaker> that's not what newgrfs are for or should do. They must be identical for all clients as well as the server
15:39:12 <planetmaker> within current frameworks, you likely would want to go via the admin port and associate the client IP with the client's nickname and hash that to a unique ID
15:39:13 <gynter> The NewGRF would be identical, but the guid would be generated different for the first time the client connects to the server.
15:39:23 <gynter> And saved to some datafile afterwards for reading.
15:40:02 <planetmaker> newgrfs are for changing map components and gameplay. Not client/server behaviour. There's no communication path there
15:40:29 <gynter> Thanks, that's what I wanted to know :)
15:41:30 <gynter> So basically for this kind of guid hash support I would have to server and also the client. Well that sucks :P
15:41:57 <planetmaker> Well. Technically I think you could do without modifying anything, just writing an admin script
15:42:09 <planetmaker> which reads the IPs of clients and the associated nicknames
15:42:32 <gynter> But now if the client changes IP or nick, this would be useless :)
15:42:42 <gynter> I would like to have guid instead of somekind login system
15:42:54 <planetmaker> what would you like to bind a unique identifier to?
15:43:08 <planetmaker> a token in the config file? Also easily changed
15:43:58 <planetmaker> Though that would likely do and only is circumvented if explicitly wanted to. But then, that's easy with every system
15:44:09 <planetmaker> just change source, reply what is expected, done
15:44:37 <gynter> Ofc is easily changed.
15:45:31 <planetmaker> But a unique ID is, if you want to keep it easy, probably indeed best implemented as clientID, a user-side variable which can be transported upon authentication ot the server
15:46:06 <planetmaker> and that variable is config-only. And the configfile is written after first start of openttd, so... remains there
15:46:32 <Rubidium> GUIDs aren't going to work well in OpenTTD
15:46:50 <Rubidium> the configuration files are shared/copied around, so storing something GUID-ish in there will not work
15:47:20 <gynter> Not in the config ofc. A separate datasource.
15:47:22 <planetmaker> would be rather GID ;-) without "u". But it might be "good enough"
15:47:40 <planetmaker> gynter, you need to make sure it's independent of openttd version then
15:47:43 <Rubidium> gynter: so how would you save it?
15:48:01 <planetmaker> and then.... why not config file?
15:49:18 <planetmaker> it's the same like you don't want to share your cfg with your nickname's password(s) ;-)
15:49:26 <gynter> because it would increase the possibility to mistakenly share your guid
15:49:52 <planetmaker> making the guid more secure than your default company password sounds like a ... strange idea
15:50:29 <peter1138> why do you need to identify the client?
15:50:42 <gynter> For example, statistics.
15:51:39 <peter1138> hmm, you could extend the server password system to use per-user passwords
15:52:00 <peter1138> hmm, i guess client name isn't available there yet
15:52:16 <planetmaker> whereever you want to store it: that should not be your primary worry. Config file is good enough for a starter. The implementation of the actual protocol is the itneresting thing
15:53:05 <Rubidium> planetmaker: the client name is available
15:53:11 <Rubidium> s/planetmaker/peter1138/
15:53:18 <gynter> Yes, the key transport would have to be secure too.
15:53:48 <planetmaker> gynter, also there, making that more secure than server or company PW - pointless
15:54:45 <gynter> You mean the guid would be pointless or paswords would be?
15:54:49 <planetmaker> or rcon password for that matter when sending rcon commands
15:55:11 <planetmaker> I mean adding extra security measures beyond what is done for current rcon access
15:55:27 <planetmaker> which likely is rather "none"
15:56:14 <planetmaker> also, encryption or so, that's also not the main problem. Can always be added :-)
15:56:51 <planetmaker> Unless you want to re-write the protocol
15:56:55 <Rubidium> I think some passwords are md5ed and salted
15:57:05 <peter1138> planetmaker, i disagree with your "that isn't secure, why bother making anything else secure" theory
15:57:28 <gynter> But You think that this kind of feature, which would make life easier for identifying clients for servers (eg Goal server login stuff etc, statistics) would be pointless or not :) ?
15:58:00 <gynter> So instead of logging-in the player would be identified uniquely on every server without logging in.
15:58:21 <planetmaker> peter1138, that's not what I said ;-)
15:58:57 <Rubidium> having said that, the game password isn't hashed/salted
15:59:01 <gynter> Also it would give the possibility to add access levels using the guid to the companies.
15:59:11 <gynter> or even to the servers
16:00:56 <Rubidium> gynter: the question remains, how do you want to save the GUID?
16:01:10 <planetmaker> I can only speak for myself: I don't mind such feature. But it needs questions answerd
16:01:16 <planetmaker> Rubidium, could be done via admin script
16:01:26 <peter1138> aes512 encrypted using a user supplied passphrase ;)
16:01:54 <planetmaker> so servers can setup their own solution to that, no need to put that in openttd core
16:02:25 <Rubidium> planetmaker: the GUID can't be saved by the game script
16:03:00 <Rubidium> that runs server side, the GUID needs to be saved client side
16:03:11 <gynter> Yes, it needs to be client side
16:03:26 <planetmaker> ah, you mean client-side. I'd still save that in the config file
16:04:00 <planetmaker> That's really good enough for what goal servers need or what one needs for access to pr0 servers
16:04:33 <Rubidium> planetmaker: actually, there is a set of servers that release their own binaries to implement something like this
16:05:41 <gynter> I don't really like the own-binary solution, thats why I hoped it would be possible to do it using the NewGRF :)
16:06:11 <Rubidium> NewGRFs don't have disk access, and do not even know about network
16:06:48 <gynter> But are OpenTTD devs interested of such feature?
16:08:19 <planetmaker> each of us probably has a different view ;-)
16:08:41 <Rubidium> I wouldn't be against it, but the major problem is and remains: how to save the GUID; the config file isn't good, as then it is not a GUID anymore
16:08:48 <Rubidium> i.e. not globally unique
16:09:07 <peter1138> what was network_id for?
16:10:01 <Rubidium> the same, but it was flawed and not useable. Which is exactly why I am so against saving it in the config file
16:10:02 <gynter> Rubidium: for example, the Tremulous has GUID saved in a file "qkey" which is located under the game base (eg ~/.tremulous/
16:10:32 <Rubidium> gynter: there are several torrents on the internet with whole folders, including the whole config directory.
16:10:46 <Rubidium> this is even worse with the "stand alone" torrents, which have everything in a single folder
16:11:09 <gynter> The idea of guid is not to protect people form their own stupidity :P
16:11:54 <Rubidium> this is not stupdity, it's not knowing what repercussions it might have
16:12:06 <planetmaker> shooting down the idea by "you can't get an absolutely unique ID" can always be done by scenarios of "people just share everything"
16:12:06 <Rubidium> just like I reckon you do not read all EULAs you agree to
16:12:07 <gynter> Github as also lots of ~/.ssh/id_rsa files :))
16:12:49 <planetmaker> if it's not absolutely unique it practically still doesn't matter
16:13:23 <planetmaker> but it might fall on our feet ;-)
16:13:43 <gynter> Solution would be to save it in completely different location?
16:13:48 <peter1138> store it in the gnome key manager
16:13:50 <gynter> Which would suck thou.
16:14:04 <planetmaker> windows registy ;-)
16:14:32 <Rubidium> gynter: which such for portable 'installs'
16:15:17 <planetmaker> hm... I think I ... never installed an OpenTTD, at least not on OSX or linux
16:15:33 <planetmaker> I can't vouch for not installing it back in the 0.5.x time
16:15:43 <planetmaker> but definitely not since 0.6 time :D
16:15:51 <Rubidium> I've installed it plenty of times
16:16:21 <gynter> I wonder how exactly does the Trem do the guid thingie
16:16:22 <planetmaker> (as in using an installer, ofc)
16:17:03 <Rubidium> planetmaker: yes, well before anyone else installed it actually ;)
16:17:17 <planetmaker> hehe :-) thought so
16:17:29 <planetmaker> gotta go. See you later all
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16:29:46 <supermop> can track have custom foundations yet?
16:35:36 <michi_cc> Store GUID and MAC, if MAC changes, generate new GUID.
16:35:50 <Rubidium> michi_cc: fails for portable install ;)
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16:36:59 <Slower> Hello, I'm willing to participate in open ttd development and therefore I wanna ask if the feature/fix with the giving money function is still free to be done
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16:40:54 <Slower> what should I do to get the task assigned to me?
16:41:33 <Eddi|zuHause> just start doing it
16:42:09 <blathijs> Perhaps comment on the bugreport, if any, that you're giving it a go
16:51:45 <Slower> there's not created the issue yet
16:54:44 <blathijs> The just start coding, I guess :-)
16:57:06 <Slower> I'll ask later if there'll be someone who can provide me more details, but thanks for advices anyway!
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17:56:44 <NGC3982> What is the best way to use a feeder system in ECS? With or without full load orders?
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18:37:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i've never really played with ECS, but maybe using timetables is better
18:45:20 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25056 /trunk/src/lang (basque.txt indonesian.txt) (2013-02-28 18:45:12 UTC)
18:45:21 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:22 <DorpsGek> basque - 10 changes by Thadah
18:45:23 <DorpsGek> indonesian - 2 changes by adjayanto
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18:50:40 <George> frosch123: Are you here? I'd like to ask about FS#5086
18:51:09 <George> Is there a FS thet transforms a task to
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18:52:47 <George> same introduction/extroduction date
18:53:17 <George> Including preview stage?
20:27:03 <frosch123> [19:51] <George> Is there a FS thet transforms a task to <- transform what?
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22:54:25 <planetmaker> Slower, the task wrt giving money to companies is still free. I'd recommend to just give it a go. Feel free to ask here or in our forums or also in a FS task, if you got further questions about that
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23:00:36 <tracerpt> who's willing to take a look at a station and tell me what a mess it is?
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