IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-02-24
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00:42:00 <Pokka> any OpenTTD forum mods still awake? :)
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01:02:31 <Jasperthecat1> I always go on the forums at 8:00PM. That's when the nightly database backup is running.
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08:03:28 * Pokka is banditing around in euro truck simulator 2
08:03:46 <Pokka> why must they drive on the wrong side on the continent? :)
08:06:54 <peter1138> also you can coast for hundreds of miles with no fuel
08:07:00 <Pokka> then when you want to come back, they give you a french truck to drive, with the steering wheel on the wrong side.
08:07:45 <Pokka> I think I will make my semis in hoqvs non-articulated
08:08:40 <Pokka> they'll be small enough
08:09:17 <Pokka> and I think I'd rather they overtake and be able to use non-drivethrough stations
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08:13:28 <andythenorth> Pokka: your idea is intriguing
08:13:32 <andythenorth> do you have a newsletter?
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08:32:44 <tracerpt> theoretically for me also
08:32:54 <tracerpt> but since i didnt sleep
08:33:04 <tracerpt> i think it may still be yesterday
08:36:09 <mseidl> do you know much about the train signals tracerpt ?
08:36:48 <tracerpt> I mostly use path signals
08:37:44 <tracerpt> i dont really understand much of the game, i pop in here to try and pickup something
08:37:59 <mseidl> i setup a loading loop but my trains keep getting stuck
08:38:44 <NGC3982> Anything i can help you with?
08:39:39 <mseidl> NGC3982: yeah, hold on, i will show you a pic
08:40:33 <mseidl> you see the loop around ludinghattan?
08:41:20 <tracerpt> playing poker at same time
08:41:38 <mseidl> i did 1 of those around each trainstation but they keep getting stuck while loading.
08:41:42 <NGC3982> Yes, that looks a bit odd.
08:42:33 <mseidl> do i need to add a block signal if i want to split up the rear track?
08:42:58 <tracerpt> i do mine on a such larger scale that i have trouble figuring out simple layouts
08:43:23 <mseidl> i tried adding another pre/path signal right before the depot but that didn't seem to work as designed
08:43:31 <tracerpt> but seems like the block signals are doing that
08:43:33 <NGC3982> I actually wouldnt know. My sollution would be to not use block signals on two way tracks.
08:43:42 <tracerpt> try using path signals
08:43:53 <tracerpt> let me just close my poker game
08:44:07 <NGC3982> Yes. Two simple two way path signals.
08:44:13 <NGC3982> At least that's what i would do.
08:44:36 <mseidl> i wanted itto be able to store 2 trains on the back side if need be
08:44:47 <mseidl> because what happens is atrain waits behind another blocking the exit
08:45:33 <mseidl> a train waits for a platform blocking the exit, so one train sits in the
08:45:54 <mseidl> back side, but none of the trains will leave the platforms because of the train on the backside
08:47:14 <tracerpt> put 2 path signals on those spots (red)
08:47:21 <tracerpt> remove green block signals
08:47:32 <mseidl> tracerpt: i just copied the single station
08:47:58 <mseidl> with asingle line to anothe rstation with the same loop
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08:48:52 <tracerpt> i like larger stuff xD
08:49:10 <tracerpt> that line is serving 102 trains now
08:49:18 <mseidl> tracerpt: is that yours?
08:49:27 <tracerpt> about 30 stoping there
08:49:42 <mseidl> you're at 85 million after 1 years? what the hell gets served there?
08:50:41 <tracerpt> im at over 1 billion now
08:51:01 <tracerpt> thats my first game with FIRS
08:51:27 <tracerpt> I did cheat to remove a mountain
08:51:48 <tracerpt> so u can take out about 5 million from there
08:52:09 <tracerpt> thats just a test game, 1st where i used trainsets and industry stuff
08:52:37 <mseidl> tracerpt: are you mostly focusing on industry stuff?
08:53:04 <tracerpt> its a small map, not much towns
08:53:47 <tracerpt> but most is industry yes
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08:55:17 <tracerpt> when i get bored from this game will start a really big map and do it properly
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08:55:49 <tracerpt> adds industries to the game
08:57:06 <tracerpt> i would make it confusing if i tried to explain
08:57:50 <andythenorth_> Is that wiki page outdated? O_o
08:59:37 <tracerpt> mseidl: ask andy he knows a bit about firs
08:59:40 <mseidl> oh another question? i see sawmills on the map? but havent found a lumber yard to pick up wood? did i just miss it somewhere?
09:00:24 <Supercheese> Outdated wiki page is outdated
09:00:39 <tracerpt> on the forest patches in the hills
09:01:10 <tracerpt> i dont think they show up in the game by themselves
09:01:18 <tracerpt> if they do i've never seen one
09:01:53 <tracerpt> oh, and when they start taking down trees
09:02:02 <tracerpt> u'll need to plant more
09:02:09 <tracerpt> but its a good investment
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09:04:19 <andythen_> Outdated wiki page for FIRS :p
09:04:27 <tracerpt> lumber mills will chop down trees around them
09:04:35 <tracerpt> eventually depleting the forest
09:04:55 <Supercheese> only in tropical vanilla OTTD eh
09:04:55 <tracerpt> keep the $$$ flowing
09:05:45 <mseidl> tracerpt: what's your general strategy for starting out?
09:06:05 <Alberth> tracerpt: I stop caring for money once I get more than I can spend
09:06:27 <Alberth> pax is also good, as you have two-way cargo
09:07:01 <tracerpt> i always start by locating a coal mine at medium range from a power station
09:07:29 <Alberth> coal is easier, I agree, in temperate, at least :p
09:07:47 <tracerpt> the tropical one also
09:07:54 <Alberth> in arctic, I usually start with wood
09:08:28 <mseidl> is there a way to slow down the time too?
09:08:40 <Alberth> and in toyland with batteries and plastic, for the toy factory
09:09:05 <Alberth> mseidl: there are several patches that attempt that, but each has problems
09:09:30 <Alberth> never tried them though
09:09:50 <tracerpt> I'm using a fairly old pc
09:09:51 <Alberth> 5,000,000 years game time seems sufficient to me :)
09:10:06 <tracerpt> and when overloading firefox with flash stuff
09:10:29 <tracerpt> and running everything else
09:10:50 <tracerpt> 1 year may take 5 more seconds to go by
09:11:01 <tracerpt> so i think thats effective lol
09:11:17 <mseidl> is anybody here responsable for play-ttd.com? the online js version?
09:11:36 <Supercheese> I don't think the author of that hangs out here
09:12:18 <tracerpt> how does it works online? competitive?
09:12:48 <Supercheese> People start a company and build stuff, and transport stuff
09:12:57 <Supercheese> multiple people can do that at the same time :P
09:13:08 <Supercheese> it's not very complex unless you make it
09:13:33 <tracerpt> or do everyone else needs to be online to get the game resumed
09:14:30 <NGC3982> My girl friend forgot her ipad logged in
09:14:35 <Supercheese> and yes, games on servers are persistent
09:14:46 <Supercheese> they can either keep running or autopause when no one is connected
09:14:49 <mseidl> NGC3982: are you swedish?
09:14:53 <Alberth> tracerpt: depends on server settings, and you can play competition, co-operation, and everything in between
09:15:43 <NGC3982> tracerpt: For instance, i have three dedicated (advertised) servers running, and two out of three servers run only when >1 player is online. The third runs ..Always.
09:16:01 <tracerpt> so if i was to join one of those games
09:16:03 <Supercheese> I forgot about OTTD javascript implementation
09:16:11 <Supercheese> people were like "No way, that's impossible!"
09:16:17 <tracerpt> if it was competitive
09:16:23 <Supercheese> then boom, some virtually anonymous dude implements it
09:16:45 <tracerpt> i can have someone buy out my company when im not there?
09:16:48 <Supercheese> Well, OTTD-in-browser
09:16:57 <Supercheese> I have no idea what the actual code is, I presume javascript
09:17:19 <mseidl> i tried to buy a bus but it cost me 7 billion pounds
09:17:30 <NGC3982> tracerpt: Yes, if you are facing bancruptcy, and the configuration of the server allow it.
09:18:15 <mseidl> is anybody working on higher res version of ttd?
09:18:34 <Supercheese> you can download it from Banananananaannas
09:18:53 <Supercheese> Oh, and zBase is the thing, not the person
09:18:58 <Supercheese> in case that was ambiguous
09:19:06 <tracerpt> u bough the whole tfl buses
09:19:18 <NGC3982> mseidl: That sounds like three hundred years of inflation in play.
09:20:05 <tracerpt> well i tryed the zbase
09:20:12 <tracerpt> colours are well annoying
09:20:23 <tracerpt> went back to default after 10 minutes
09:20:47 <tracerpt> but i am using the 32bpp trains on my game though
09:20:59 <Rubidium> NGC3982: pff... 300 years is unimaginable, maybe 170 but no more
09:21:58 <NGC3982> Doesn't inflation stop after some time, btw?
09:22:22 <mseidl> did anybody make a clone of sim city?
09:22:55 <tracerpt> or the crap they fed us after it? :)
09:27:19 <tracerpt> i should get some sleep
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09:28:54 <sridharan_eee> Hi everybody... May I ask in this forum, is it possible to add train timings to simulate real time schedule for trains running between stations..?
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09:32:00 <mseidl> tracerpt: thanks for your help and NGC3982
09:32:08 <tracerpt> theres a timetable thing on the train orders, but i just use it to set max speed
09:32:51 <tracerpt> i tried to get a jet to fly once a month but failed miserably
09:33:58 <tracerpt> i'm too tired to read
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09:37:55 <mseidl> i installed zbase via the download menu and it crashes when loading now
09:40:28 <mseidl> are there any must have grfs?
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09:58:48 <Alberth> as in, everybody has different favorite ones
09:59:10 <Alberth> it depends on how you play the game
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10:58:31 <andythenorth_> Alberth I considered tabs for lang page, would be more usable
10:58:55 <andythenorth_> But needs more js and complicated markup
11:00:20 <andythenorth_> I'm trying to keep this so anyone could hack on it
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11:01:57 <Alberth> :o a pretty 'upload language' page as well!
11:02:56 <Alberth> I don't exactly know what to put at that page, tbh
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11:06:21 <Alberth> I find it a waste to dump all strings there, somewhat. Just the names makes it even quite useless imho
11:07:34 <Alberth> perhaps add a link from the project page directly to the string-edit page? that's what most people would do
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11:20:00 <andythenorth_> Phone irc is poor
11:23:17 <Kjetil> it can't afford food ?
11:23:25 <Alberth> you may want to throw the phone out the window, but that may have a dramatic effect on your ability to irc
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12:05:56 <andythenorth_> Alberth is the intention to host one instance of web translator someshere, or distribute it? Assuming host...?
12:06:34 <Alberth> imho, different sites can make different decisions there
12:07:30 <andythenorth_> Might have licensing shenanigan, some of the libraries I've added are MIT etc, not GPL :)
12:07:30 <Alberth> it's single threading at the moment, so a single instance wouldn't really work now
12:08:07 <andythenorth_> Single threading is not uncommon for python web apps
12:08:30 <Alberth> true, but you better prepare for several instances then, imho
12:09:12 <andythenorth_> Use haproxy or something to farm work to instances
12:09:32 <andythenorth_> But then locking needs considering :)
12:09:50 <Alberth> so we should make more explicit what license holds for which part
12:10:11 <Alberth> perhaps even distributing the 3rd -party data as separate archives
12:10:24 <andythenorth_> When i have my laptop again i can look at the licenses
12:10:56 <Alberth> I considered locking a bit, but decided aginst implementing it now, as the problem is big enough without race conditions :p
12:12:02 <andythenorth_> One thread per xml file :p
12:12:04 <Alberth> I am also still wondering whether files are really the way to go
12:12:20 <andythenorth_> Probably files are bad :)
12:12:35 <andythenorth_> Sqlalchemy might be worth a look
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12:12:58 <andythenorth_> Adapter to sql, makes it act like objects
12:13:20 <Alberth> but merging all strings of all projects together also didn't look like a good solution
12:13:56 <Alberth> you mostly need just the base language and the translation you work on
12:15:00 <Alberth> stuff like updating the base language breaks that idea, and initial loading does due to re-generation strings state
12:15:21 <Alberth> the latter is solvable, the latter is harder to fix
12:15:45 <Alberth> euhm, the *former* is harder to fix :)
12:16:50 <frosch123> someone knows some nasty train sets using cargo subtypes? :)
12:18:29 <andythenorth_> Canrail - some of the flat wagons do
12:18:36 <andythenorth_> Nars 2 regearing
12:18:47 <andythenorth_> Db set i assume does
12:19:29 <peter1138> ukrs 1? dunno though
12:21:56 <andythenorth_> Alberth have you implemented any file locking at all yet? :)
12:23:03 <andythenorth_> If this was a work project it would just use zodb which is a neat persistent object db for python
12:23:23 <andythenorth_> But nobody in this community will know how to host zodb
12:24:12 <andythenorth_> Writing our own locks etc for files is ... undesirable?
12:25:07 <V453000> frosch123: nuts has cargo subtypes too for passengers/mail/gold :P
12:26:14 <frosch123> really? i guess i never transported those cargos with nuts
12:26:46 <frosch123> are there articulated wagons for gold?
12:29:02 <Alberth> andythenorth_: it is not, but I think the project is complicated enough without threading, currently at least
12:29:31 <V453000> yes frosch123, on maglev
12:30:12 <andythenorth_> Also it's nice that the project can be run without building deps (db etc)
12:30:53 <Alberth> andythenorth_: another point you could start from is the ProjectMetaData object, which loads/saves/unloads projects
12:31:31 <Alberth> yeah, you can simply copy a file back, restart the server, and try again :)
12:32:53 <Alberth> you could also give each language a file
12:33:30 <Alberth> a project would be a directory then
12:38:25 <andythenorth_> So my guess is that performance will simply be fine most of the time
12:38:45 <andythenorth_> Low number of concurrent users
12:39:04 <andythenorth_> Relatively simple read / write tasks
12:43:53 <andythenorth_> Stuff that might chug - like large exports - could be a standalone app reading same files (read only)
12:45:25 <Alberth> except that I'd pull langfile updates also over http from the application
12:45:48 <Alberth> so you don't need to have file access
12:46:09 <andythenorth_> Wsgi can combine multiple apps trivially afaik btw
12:46:34 <andythenorth_> And yes, i was thinking of curling lang updates for my grfs
12:47:27 <andythenorth_> I might want them as json for more processing though, not just a lang file ;)
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12:48:12 <Alberth> another extension is to make a file format to express what needs to be translated, so translators can download that into a local application
12:48:34 <Alberth> I used json first, but I don't have control over its contents
12:49:10 <Alberth> xml gives me the option of inspecting each node
12:50:22 <Alberth> unless I write a json parser, of course :)
12:55:04 <Alberth> btw, do you have a library that converts a time-delta (in number of seconds) to something nicely readable, like "3 weeks ago" ?
12:56:28 <andythenorth_> I think it's quite trivial to output json from objs - there's a repr module for it iirc
12:56:54 <andythenorth_> Hmm time offsets. Maybe babel can do that?
12:57:22 <Alberth> sure, output is no problem, it's loading it back that I worry about :)
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12:57:57 <Alberth> I looked around a bit, and there are a number of implementation floating around at the new
12:58:12 <andythenorth_> I was going to add babel for time formatting etc
12:58:26 <andythenorth_> Then decided it's overkill
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12:59:41 <andythenorth> real keyboard :P
13:01:26 <Alberth> bable does seem overkill unless we're going to translate our application :)
13:01:54 <Alberth> I am somewhat surprised nobody wrote an implementation for adding to datetime
13:02:53 <andythenorth> well date1-date2 should work
13:02:54 <Alberth> but all texts and changes have time stamps, which need to be displayed as well
13:03:01 <andythenorth> it's just the formatting is a bit of work
13:03:42 <Alberth> yeah, you don't want 1 year, 5 months, 21 days, 6 hours, 39 minutes and 1 second :)
13:04:05 <Alberth> 17 months is precise enough :)
13:04:58 <andythenorth> that's just a set of 'if blah:' stuff :)
13:05:05 <andythenorth> if we can't find one, I could write it
13:07:47 <Alberth> oh, epydoc makes the .pyc mess
13:08:39 <Alberth> as it's using python2 :)
13:13:05 <andythenorth> wrap it in a script that deletes all .pyc afterwards :P
13:18:31 <Alberth> you added .pyc ignore already :)
13:22:56 <jonty-comp> i swear i'm missing some repos in my brand-new ubuntu install or something
13:23:15 <jonty-comp> first i wanted to install steam, and the wiki said it was in apt, but it wasn't
13:23:30 <jonty-comp> and now i want to install a theme switcher which it also says is in apt but clearly is not
13:24:42 <frosch123> are you sure "steam" would already be in a "stable" ubuntu release?
13:24:51 <frosch123> maybe you need unstable or experimental or whatever
13:26:54 <jonty-comp> ah, that might be it
13:27:03 <jonty-comp> although one would assume the UK mirror has all the packages
13:27:46 <peter1138> in valves world where ubuntu == linux == ubuntu
13:28:09 <jonty-comp> probably because canonical are buying them flowers and promising them millions
13:28:55 <Alberth> more likely because their average unix customer thinks that way :)
13:33:59 <peter1138> aww, radio edits...
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14:07:35 <Generalcamo> Hey, I am having trouble with OpenTTD. I cannot seem to get the MIDI files it plays to go onto the proper MIDI driver
14:07:53 <Generalcamo> It always defaults to the Terrible Windows Driver
14:13:16 <mseidl> does it make sense to connect small towns with roads?
14:20:52 <andythenorth> Pikka how much are limes where you live?
14:22:11 <jonty-comp> oh wow, the nouveau driver did *not* like me opening bbc radio 1
14:22:17 * jonty-comp presses the reset buttan
14:29:53 <mseidl> question, i just grouped a bunch of vehicles together that are too old, and i wanted to replace them all using the replace all , but the button is grayed out?
14:30:04 <peter1138> nobody likes you opening bbc radio 1
14:35:53 <mseidl> it seems as if there is nothing on the right hand column
14:36:43 <mseidl> to select as a replacement vehicle
14:39:37 <Pokka> maybe you can no longer build vehicles of that type, mseidl?
14:40:07 <NGC3982> Xbox Kinect really sucks.
14:40:19 <Alberth> throw it out the window quickly!
14:40:33 <NGC3982> Seriosly, it's in the Rob the Robot category.
14:40:41 <Pokka> throw it out of the window slowly
14:41:02 <mseidl> Pokka: why? they are still available in my new vehicle list from the depot all these trucks are at
14:41:10 <mseidl> NGC3982: why you say that?
14:41:13 <NGC3982> It doesn't even handle a menue.
14:41:32 <NGC3982> Trying several angles, with no or lots of stuff around me, different distances.
14:41:46 <NGC3982> It is not bad. It's -broken-.
14:41:49 <Pokka> I'd post a screenshot and savegame on the forum :)
14:43:30 <mseidl> are there any must have grfs?
14:44:02 <NGC3982> mseidl: Not really, but personaly, i never play vanilla without the OpenGFX+ NewGRF pack.
14:44:28 <peter1138> is it vanilla with that?
14:44:57 <NGC3982> peter1138: Not ..really. I guess.
14:45:23 <peter1138> my must-have grf: trg1r.grf
14:45:45 <jonty-comp> it has become apparent to me that ubuntu still hates my entirely-normal desktop computer
14:46:12 <andythenorth> Pikka: stirring? Limes?
14:50:20 <Pokka> the limes in climes fall mainly on the rhymes
14:51:53 <peter1138> what's this, FIRS to be removed from bananas and hosted solely on simuscape?
14:53:41 <Pokka> but mostly advising SAC she should consult mb for advice on the best way to handle content violations :)
14:54:23 <Pokka> you're still stirring :P
14:54:37 <andythenorth> nah, I actually think maria is heading into a license headache
14:54:41 <Pokka> and what are these limes I've heard so much about?
14:54:42 <andythenorth> and she'll just end up sad about it
14:55:07 <andythenorth> you won't miss anything if you don't click
14:56:43 <peter1138> i'm going to click anyway
15:03:17 * andythenorth teaching the 3 year old Big Trak
15:07:11 <Pokka> anyway, what "licence headache"? It's her stuff, she can choose to do with or not do with it as she likes. :)
15:09:42 <andythenorth> the one where it's a made up license, full of holes?
15:11:31 <andythenorth> I would rather have a happy team simuscape
15:11:55 <andythenorth> and fewer dramas with the neighbours about who's dog has crapped on the lawn
15:12:04 <andythenorth> whose / who's /s ?
15:12:16 <andythenorth> you should just use WTFPL
15:13:31 <Pokka> largely because I'm not labouring under the illusion that I'm going to sue anyone over TTD graphics
15:13:53 <andythenorth> Team SS should adopt your licence ;)
15:14:22 <andythenorth> what does Michael use?
15:16:46 <andythenorth> the DB Set 0.8 copyright notice includes right to distribute
15:18:07 <Kjetil> why can't everyone just be friends ?
15:19:35 <Pokka> you'd better upload it to bananas then, andythenorth
15:19:44 <Pokka> except the bananas ToS says you can't :)
15:22:07 <Pokka> but yes, why can't everyone just be friends? because entitlement and playing pretend lawyer is more fun than respecting other people's right to do what they want with their own work, probably.
15:24:31 <Pokka> goodnight gentlemen and charlies
15:25:00 <jonty-comp> i take offense at that!
15:25:29 <Kjetil> You are not a friend ?
15:26:39 <Kjetil> Or are you not a gentleman ?
15:27:03 <jonty-comp> that is not for me to decide
15:27:43 <Kjetil> then how can you take offence ?
15:28:39 <__ln__> Kjetil: please, no space in front of the questionmark.
15:29:14 <__ln__> because this channel is english only.
15:29:49 <Kjetil> does it break your head ?
15:30:06 <jonty-comp> i think you are answering your "why can't everyone just be friends" question quite well there
15:30:33 <jonty-comp> because everyone does something that annoys someone else, no matter how hard they try :P
15:30:43 <frosch123> [16:29] <Kjetil> does it break your head ? <- if in doubt, the reverse smiley did for sure :p
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15:33:23 <Kjetil> -breaks* I guess i broke my own head
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15:54:00 <Generalcamo> OpenTTD uses Pre-Rendered sprites, right?
15:55:31 <__ln__> uses sprites instead of graphics, hmm
15:56:21 <Generalcamo> I would love to model up a train and convert it to sprite form...
15:57:12 <__ln__> the sprites are drawn by hand, pixel by pixel.
15:57:49 <Generalcamo> What? That doesn't fit at all with this thread I am reading...
15:58:36 <frosch123> maybe ln is living 5 years in the past
15:59:15 <Generalcamo> Yeah, it's 3d models..
15:59:22 <__ln__> but that's not as bad as OTTD living 15 years in the past.
15:59:42 <frosch123> i guess the reverse smiley hit you hard
15:59:45 <Generalcamo> And he is 15 years in the past: The original TTD used the same techinique (Only with 3d studio max)
16:00:02 <Generalcamo> From Chris Sawyer's blog..
16:00:03 <__ln__> i'm not offended by reverse smilies
16:00:42 <Generalcamo> How do I create new shell maps though?
16:01:00 <Generalcamo> Because once I am done with this mod, the shellmap will be horribly broken..
16:05:06 <__ln__> so TTD graphics were rendered with 3d studio max, without pixel-by-pixel manual intervetion?
16:05:30 <Generalcamo> They probably used some manual intervention to correct errors, but yes
16:07:43 <Alberth> different people use different techniques to derive unique collections of pixels
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16:40:37 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r25040 trunk/src/vehicle_cmd.cpp (2013-02-24 16:40:32 UTC)
16:40:38 <DorpsGek> -Add: a mode to CmdRefitVehicle to preserve the current subtype, also when refitting multiple vehicles.
16:41:57 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r25041 /trunk/src (7 files in 2 dirs) (2013-02-24 16:41:51 UTC)
16:41:59 <DorpsGek> -Remove [FS#3764-ish]: ordered refit with subtypes, since the cases where it worked were corner cases rather than the general case.
16:42:36 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r25042 trunk/src/vehicle_gui.cpp (2013-02-24 16:42:30 UTC)
16:42:38 <DorpsGek> -Codechange/Fix: Simplify accumulation of refit options; also don't compare GRF local IDs from different GRFs.
16:43:30 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r25043 /trunk/src (core/smallvec_type.hpp vehicle_gui.cpp) (2013-02-24 16:43:24 UTC)
16:43:31 <DorpsGek> -Change [FS#3764]: Only display subtypes in the refit GUI which are available for all selected vehicles. Also add a generic list item to refit while keeping the subtypes of individual vehicles.
16:43:51 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r25044 trunk/src/vehicle_gui.cpp (2013-02-24 16:43:45 UTC)
16:43:52 <DorpsGek> -Change: Collapse subtypes in the refit GUI and only expand them after selecting the cargo type.
16:44:18 <frosch123> andythenorth: we should do some tram game in the next week or so
16:44:31 <frosch123> i need to know whether the new refit gui makes sense or is crap :p
16:44:43 <andythenorth> frosch123: I would like to play MP GS later
16:44:58 <andythenorth> if we start setting up a save now, we might be ready by 8pm? :)
16:45:22 <frosch123> ok, i can try that :p
16:46:36 <wakou2> I have got to about 1990 and passenger/mail carriages are no longer available...
16:47:07 <frosch123> your trainset is broken apparently :p
16:47:15 <Alberth> not upgraded to electric trains?
16:47:24 <frosch123> you can work around it by disabling vehicle retirement
16:49:28 <wakou2> I am in a sub-arctic game, thee are no electrics! (?)
16:49:57 <Alberth> at least for a default game
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16:51:51 <DorpsGek> Alberth: I have not seen people.
16:51:57 <frogzilla> Is this the main OpenTTd chat?
16:52:36 <frogzilla> I've figured out a new junction design.
16:53:19 <frogzilla> Now could you please tell me whether it's really new or it's just a repetition of a known design?
16:53:42 <Alberth> did you look at the wiki?
16:53:46 <TinoDidriksen> Looks familiar to ones on the wiki.
16:53:51 <Alberth> it has tons of these things
16:54:17 <frogzilla> Yes it does, but nevertheless I couldn't find an identical one on the wiki.
16:54:21 <Alberth> personally, I don't use any of them, as my land is never flat
16:54:40 <frogzilla> It never hurts to flatten the land a bit
16:55:20 <Alberth> you can post your design on the forum for comments, and/or add it to the wiki if you like
16:55:56 <frogzilla> Also, is it better to make a left-turn branch longer, like in the left quarter of the junction, or to make it shorter, like in the other three quarters?
16:56:08 <wakou2> Is that 'vehicles never expire setting? in advanced/trains?
16:56:36 <frogzilla> That was just an ordinary game in Arctic climate
16:56:58 <TinoDidriksen> I never saw the point of complex junctions - even very simple solutions will prevent deadlocks.
16:57:02 <frogzilla> In fact, this was year 1968
16:57:23 <frogzilla> Yes, but good junctions increase throughput
16:58:20 <Alberth> frogzilla: for this kind of questions, you should post it at the forums, there are lots of people obsessed with optimal design of junctions there :)
16:58:46 <frogzilla> Decent junctions, like this one, have no crossings. that way no train EVER blocks the path of a train going in another direction.
16:59:04 <frosch123> for that you forgot to add the priority lines :p
16:59:08 <frogzilla> I don't want to register on a forum just for a couple of questions
16:59:20 <V453000> frogzilla: see openttdcoop.org if you want to build effectively
16:59:22 <frogzilla> I cannot into priority lines.
16:59:43 <frogzilla> And the opennttdcoop designs are way too difficult for me.
16:59:55 <wakou2> Alberth: Git now, ty... Into the 2,000 with steam!
17:00:13 <Alberth> frogzilla: ok, perhaps someone else can help you then
17:00:38 <frogzilla> At least someone else now knows about my design...
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17:01:33 <Alberth> V453000: how long does NUTS have steam?
17:02:01 <Alberth> wakou2 seems to be interested in running steam engines well into the 2,000 's :)
17:02:55 <V453000> vehicles never expire?
17:03:11 <V453000> well the standard steamers are like until 1960
17:03:38 <V453000> but 1960 brings another steamer for monorail, and then there is a strong steamer in 2010, and an express steamer in like 2030
17:07:10 <Alberth> I am in 1972, didn't expect it that early :)
17:08:08 <Alberth> it seems I have some track converting to do :)
17:08:24 <Kjetil> If people kept using steamers they would't expire?
17:12:45 <Alberth> Of course, most vehicle sets are based on real life, so if we would only use steam as main form of propulsion today in the entire world, we would not have all these other trains.
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17:51:13 <andythenorth> frosch123: can we have a FIRS 0.9.3 game with temperate or tropic economy?
17:51:18 <andythenorth> I need to test those economies
17:52:28 <frosch123> i have 0.9.3, but used arctic
17:52:38 <frosch123> but i can also generate tropic
17:53:07 <andythenorth> arctic works, I'm happy with it, give or take some bugs I fixed
17:53:23 <andythenorth> the others are unknown
18:06:30 <peter1138> hmm, what defines an "ergonomic" keyboard these days?
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18:14:23 <frosch123> we are all driving on the highway
18:18:15 <frosch123> do you by any chance speak tamil?
18:18:29 <frosch123> actually, reading is more interesting that speaking
18:19:48 <Jasperthecat1> I don't speak that language, I speak English.
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18:20:03 <frosch123> everyone in this channel does that
18:21:32 <Jasperthecat1> I didn't see any features in the changelog of OpenTTD 1.3.0-RC1.
18:21:48 <frosch123> it only lists stuff since beta2
18:22:11 <frosch123> check the wiki for a composed list of everything since 1.2.3
18:22:36 <Jasperthecat1> You said that there is some final features in that beta.
18:22:47 <Jasperthecat1> But, thank you.
18:22:55 <michi_cc> Jasperthecat1: Look again, my changelog has a fat "- Feature" at the top.
18:23:14 <frosch123> technically at line 3 though
18:23:51 <Jasperthecat1> I know, it's a new GFXCrawler feature.
18:25:34 <andythenorth_> Newgrf effect vehicles!
18:26:01 <Jasperthecat1> Oh, you mean all of them?
18:27:03 <Jasperthecat1> What train is this?
18:27:22 <peter1138> would it be an SD90MAC?
18:27:31 <frosch123> let me guess, it's written in the description?
18:27:47 <peter1138> and the in-film title
18:27:48 <Jasperthecat1> I said never mind.
18:28:10 <frosch123> but i want to get the joke without clicking on the link
18:28:34 <Jasperthecat1> I already read the description.
18:29:26 <Jasperthecat1> I have a model railway. But I don't use it.
18:29:46 <frosch123> that's the normal purpose of a model railway
18:30:39 <Jasperthecat1> Parts of the video, the train sounds like an older truck engine.
18:31:48 <Jasperthecat1> Also, what is that marker that shows a number.
18:32:11 <Jasperthecat1> Right by the signals.
18:45:37 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25045 /trunk/src/lang (4 files) (2013-02-24 18:45:26 UTC)
18:45:38 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:39 <DorpsGek> catalan - 1 changes by bufalo1973
18:45:40 <DorpsGek> korean - 45 changes by telk5093
18:45:41 <DorpsGek> brazilian_portuguese - 7 changes by Tucalipe
18:45:42 <DorpsGek> russian - 1 changes by Lone_Wolf
18:45:43 <DorpsGek> gaelic - 86 changes by
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18:48:13 <Alberth> quite possibly it is :)
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18:48:47 <Alberth> not sure whether I am "any Dutch user" though, I don't even use the Dutch language in games :p
18:51:56 <Ot> hi please could u say me if OTTD runs on 7s by lan?
18:52:35 <Ot> we wanted to try it but we cant join the another one
18:54:43 <frosch123> 7s sounds like a cellphone or similar
18:55:00 <frosch123> in that case you should ask at the place where you got the binary from
18:56:55 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r25046 trunk/src/lang/korean.txt (2013-02-24 18:56:50 UTC)
18:56:56 <DorpsGek> -Fix: Korean genders.
18:57:04 <frosch123> [19:54] <frosch123> 7s sounds like a cellphone or similar
18:57:05 <frosch123> [19:55] <frosch123> in that case you should ask at the place where you got the binary from
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19:07:06 <Ott> thats lan or what do u think?
19:09:07 <Eddi|zuHause> he says that he doesn't know what 7s is.
19:12:41 <andythenorth> frosch123: what nightly version? o_O
19:13:29 <kormer> I'm trying to compile just the standard trunk using MinGW. Compile goes fine, but I keep getting errors when I run the binary.
19:14:49 <frosch123> that tells nothing except your version detection does not work
19:15:41 <kormer> anything else that might help narrow it down?
19:17:33 <Eddi|zuHause> (likely not related at all)
19:18:07 <kormer> yea, I don't think that's it.
19:18:33 <kormer> This is my first time compiling myself, so I may have screwed something up, but I followed the wiki's instructions for the MinGW guide exactly.
19:18:40 <Alberth> start it from the debugger?
19:19:12 <frosch123> Alberth: Terkhen: planetmaker: anyone joining the nocargoal party?
19:19:21 <Alberth> did the configure output look sane
19:19:39 <Alberth> frosch123: there is one? if so, sure :)
19:20:01 <frosch123> i think andy wants to start in 40 minutes
19:20:13 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean the refitlist test game :)
19:21:42 <Eddi|zuHause> kormer: you could try recompiling with debug symbols "./configure --enable-debug=1", and then run it in the debugger "make run-gdb"
19:22:21 <kormer> thanks eddi, I'll try that now, be back in 20minutes...
19:23:13 <Eddi|zuHause> you can also do "--enable-debug=3", that will also disable optimisations
19:25:41 <kormer> I shouldn't have to add any other outside files to the directory after a compile do I?
19:26:29 <Eddi|zuHause> no, that should all be handled automatically now
19:33:51 <Alberth> the data files of a baseset would be useful for playing a game :p
19:38:19 <andythenorth> "Strings Status"
19:38:23 <andythenorth> or "Status of Strings"
19:38:51 <Alberth> I'd prefer the latter
19:39:08 <Eddi|zuHause> "we have a consensus"
19:49:06 * andythenorth gets the nightly
19:56:15 <oskari89> Andythenorth: Is brewery removed from FIRS trunk? O_o
19:56:26 <oskari89> Since the string gone
19:56:36 <andythenorth> it needs updating ;)
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20:00:34 <kormer> eddi: when I run it with the debugged I get "No available language packs (invalid versions?)"
20:01:47 <Alberth> then you didn't build all projects
20:03:19 <kormer> Is that the make bundle command?
20:03:43 <Eddi|zuHause> kormer: then we need the output of your configure and make. something is wrong there but we cannot guess it...
20:04:28 <Alberth> normally just 'make' after ./configure is enough
20:07:36 <Eddi|zuHause> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Bildschirmfoto21.png <-- what the hell is wrong here?
20:09:08 <Eddi|zuHause> that's something i can't fix
20:09:39 <kormer> nothing jumps out at me as obvious, but I don't compile often
20:12:00 <andythenorth> MP GS, #openttdcoop.nightly
20:12:43 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r25047 trunk/src/lang/dutch.txt (2013-02-24 20:12:37 UTC)
20:12:44 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5483]: Dutch language had a few bogus unicode characters
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20:30:26 <peter1138> heh, i don't see it :S
20:31:05 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: something like "zero-width space"
20:37:06 <Supercheese> Interesting, collapsed subtypes until cargo selected?
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20:40:00 <Supercheese> Suggestion: Indent the subtype entries
20:40:07 <Supercheese> Make it clearer they're sub-entries
20:43:59 <Supercheese> anyway, very nice feature :)
20:44:24 <peter1138> god damn this keyboard is horrible
20:45:41 <Supercheese> You should get a Logitech G15 (classic version), otherwise known as the Best Keyboard Ever
20:47:22 <Rubidium> pff... those old IBM keyboards were probably even better ;)
20:48:21 <glx> Eddi|zuHause: E1212012 means ERROR, it's our custom stuff
20:49:04 <Eddi|zuHause> sorry, my 1337 skills are somewhat out of shape :p
20:50:35 <Eddi|zuHause> everybody should get a Das Keyboard
20:51:01 <peter1138> i want a split keyboard (like MS natural) but with a clicky feel
20:51:06 <peter1138> unpossible, apparently
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20:52:27 <Eddi|zuHause> get a ms natural keyboard from 15 years ago? :p
20:52:32 <peter1138> guess i'll have to get a ms natural 4000
20:52:44 <Superuser> the spacebar is awful
20:52:46 <NGC3982> I might be off, but didn't Keytronic come in split models?
20:52:52 <Superuser> the keyboard is great, but the spacebar is really stiff
20:52:59 <NGC3982> And Keytronic == "Clicky", afaik.
20:53:10 <peter1138> other people in my office had 4000s but they kept dying
20:53:19 <NGC3982> Horrible, horrible keyboards.
20:54:28 <Kjetil> keytronic is far from ibm clicky
20:54:55 <peter1138> there are cherry mx blues about which are reasonable
20:55:24 <NGC3982> I used to own a 4000, and my finger suffered from the plague, gangrene and AIDS at the same time.
20:55:24 <peter1138> and of course the over-the-top maltrons
20:55:43 <NGC3982> A keyboard that suprised me is the one that ships with the Acer Aspire Revo.
20:55:44 <Superuser> actually Xah Lee is my bible in general xD
20:55:55 <NGC3982> From such a cheap package, the keyboard is fantastic on the fingers.
20:56:34 <peter1138> hmm the 'truely ergonomic' actually exists?
20:56:44 <peter1138> last time i looked it was some kind of vapourware
20:57:26 <Superuser> peter has no humour
20:58:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i totally hate such "designer keyboards"
20:58:02 <peter1138> what are the headphones for?
20:58:03 <NGC3982> But as i said, it is (for some reason) a really good keyboard, key wise.
20:58:09 <Superuser> I mean if you're going to get a normal keyboard, you should at least have a numberpad
20:58:11 <peter1138> (they're too small to be speakers, surely...)
20:58:24 <NGC3982> That keyboard is used for the Aspire Revo, as a HTPC.
20:58:25 <Eddi|zuHause> no key is where it's supposed to be
20:58:27 <NGC3982> Hence, the small size.
20:58:48 <NGC3982> ..As a HTPC keyboard*
20:59:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i throw out such things immediately when i come into an office where i have to type things
21:00:10 <Eddi|zuHause> "can you fix <thing>?" -- "no, i can't type on this keyboard, get me a real one"
21:00:11 <NGC3982> Well, working with a HTPC keyboard is just asking for trouble.
21:00:17 <jonty-comp> i got a tiny wireless keyboard for my HTPC
21:00:34 <jonty-comp> it's really small, which is useful, but the keys are in awful places
21:01:03 <NGC3982> I have gotten used to laptop layouts
21:01:26 <NGC3982> Delete to the far right, for instance.
21:03:20 <glx> backspace is usullay too small too
21:04:54 <jonty-comp> I have gotten used to the small keyboard on my transformer
21:04:55 <NGC3982> Although, i'm no programmer.
21:05:00 <jonty-comp> since it is so bloody useful in every other way
21:05:24 <Eddi|zuHause> it's bad enough when you sit in front of a new keyboard and don't hit the right letters the first few times, that adjusts rather quickly, but then go searching where the home and end keys have moved to this time?
21:06:38 <NGC3982> I don't know why, but i very rarely use home and end.
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21:07:02 <NGC3982> Oh, well. Whilst typing long things in Irssi, i guess i use them
21:07:14 <Eddi|zuHause> you don't notice how you rely on such keys, until they're not where they belong :p
21:07:20 <NGC3982> That is, every year or so that happends.
21:07:54 <NGC3982> Actually, i recently noticed that i very rarely write stuff that exceeds the standard Putty width in Windows.
21:08:08 <Supercheese> Home and end are incredible useful
21:11:41 <Supercheese> I typo "ble"-bly way too often
21:12:39 <NGC3982> You don't have to worry about linguistic irregularity when i'm around.
21:12:54 <NGC3982> I kan tace kare off dat.
21:13:21 <Supercheese> The problem is the spellcheck doesn't mark them as incorrect
21:13:37 <NGC3982> What IRC software uses spellcheck?
21:13:40 <jonty-comp> i never realised how much I used pageup/down until I used a Mac
21:13:46 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a spellcheck not a grammarcheck
21:13:51 <NGC3982> CatZilla, apparently.
21:13:52 <jonty-comp> and pgup/pgdown don't fecking work in OS X terminal
21:13:57 <jonty-comp> unless you dick around with escape commands
21:14:00 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a valid word, so the spellcheck is correct
21:14:21 <NGC3982> Freud just turned in his grave.
21:14:21 <Eddi|zuHause> whether it's what you meant to write is out of scope :)
21:14:24 <__ln__> jonty-comp: yes they do
21:14:34 <NGC3982> jonty-comp: I hate that.
21:14:43 <jonty-comp> don't on any of my OS X computers
21:14:56 <NGC3982> Unconfigured, Page Up/Down does nothing in a OSX terminal, afaik.
21:15:10 <jonty-comp> and i've used panther, leopard, snow leopard, lion & mountain lion
21:15:16 <jonty-comp> home/end don't work either iirc
21:15:23 <NGC3982> Sure, i guess escape+command is the more classic way of doing stuff like that, but i can't stand it.
21:15:30 <__ln__> try with a modifier, Option, Shift, fn.
21:15:41 <jonty-comp> option+left is home
21:15:44 <NGC3982> Does the normal Linux terminal commands go all the way back to Unix?
21:15:46 <jonty-comp> but then WHY DOES THIS KEYBOARD HAVE A HOME KEY
21:15:52 <jonty-comp> it's still an apple keyboard
21:16:07 <Eddi|zuHause> everybody knows you should use shift-pgup/pgdown in terminals
21:16:18 <NGC3982> jonty-comp: I guess nobody really wants you to use a terminal in a newer OSX system.
21:17:12 <NGC3982> If your system bundled keyboard contains page up or down, i fail to see the reason for it.
21:17:27 <NGC3982> More than the fact that it might have been that way for a long time.
21:18:31 <__ln__> page up/down without modifiers does another thing, it scrolls up/down the terminal's backlog.
21:19:34 <jonty-comp> which is what up/down are for
21:20:14 <__ln__> and that's what they do in OS X's terminal as well.
21:21:14 <NGC3982> But, i remember clearly that i couldn't get them to work with or without a modifier in OSX.
21:21:22 <NGC3982> I guess that goes down to SBS.
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21:34:11 <peter1138> time to dismantle the old ms keyboard
21:35:19 <__ln__> i was going to say stephen elop wouldn't approve of that, but then i realized he's not the ceo of microsoft.
21:44:45 <kormer> alright, I'm giving up on trying to compile under MinGW. I followed the directions in the wiki exactly twice now, and still no luck with it.
21:46:24 <Superuser> You can always try VS if you're uncomfortable with GCC/MinGW... though no guarantee that will work
21:46:29 <peter1138> FS2~2~2~2~2~2~2~2~2~2~
21:47:44 <__ln__> seems to be working great
21:47:59 <kormer> I'm trying VS 2010 now
21:48:22 <kormer> I couldn't find 2008 for download direct from MS, and the secondary google results looked shady
21:50:48 <Superuser> The Pirate Bay is banned in your country too eh? :(
21:52:45 <Eddi|zuHause> the coherency of peter1138's lines is shady usually, but these last two lines are beyond any measurement boundaries :p
21:52:54 <Supercheese> I compile with VC++ 2008 Express
21:53:37 <Superuser> I said no guarantees because OTTD is normally compiled with MinGW
21:54:27 <peter1138> ACVNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNVND
21:55:03 <kormer> I didn't really have any issues with MinGW, but I'm not experienced enough to know why the darned thing wouldn't work.
21:56:34 <Superuser> I dunno about MinGW but I've always found g++ pretty easy in Linux
21:57:01 <Eddi|zuHause> kormer: really, if you don't tell us what exactly you do and what you get in return, we can't help you
21:57:04 <Alberth> Linux is actually an order of magnitude easier for compiling
21:58:14 <kormer> The error I got when debugging was about missing/wrong version lang files, which weren't present in the bundle or bin directories.
21:58:58 <kormer> I found some related threads in the forums, but no actual solutions, also copying the lang files from the download of the same version I was attempting to compile didn't work either.
21:59:22 <kormer> "no available language packs" was the actual error
21:59:24 <Alberth> kormer: quite likely you are doing something different that you don't even see
21:59:38 <Eddi|zuHause> kormer: i already told you what i want to see
21:59:49 <Eddi|zuHause> kormer: the whole output of configure and make
22:00:09 <kormer> sorry, I posted those like two hours ago, I'll dig them up again
22:00:34 <Eddi|zuHause> ah, i guess i missed them
22:01:21 <peter1138> that isn't the *output* of make
22:02:58 <kormer> is the output going to be in a file or do I need to pipe my console output someplace?
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22:03:25 <peter1138> it's the stuff you see when you run make
22:03:27 <Alberth> you need to redirect the output
22:06:42 <kormer> ok got it, I'll re-run that and see what happens if VS doesn't work out
22:10:34 <Supercheese> makefiles are weird
22:10:59 <SpComb> we wouldn't be very far without them
22:18:10 <jonty-comp> pfft, it's not linux-from-scratch unless you've compiled your kernel with just gcc
22:18:53 <SpComb> humanity would still be stuck copy-pasting gcc command lines endlessly
22:20:14 <jonty-comp> in related news, it turns out i had to fix my nvidia driver on my brand-new ubuntu install by installing linux-headers and running depmod
22:20:37 <jonty-comp> i'm not quite sure why ubuntu didn't do that anyway, since it was the first thing i did after install + update
22:21:01 <jonty-comp> now i just have to make this stupid old card's automatic fan control work, since there is no rivatuner for linux
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22:28:28 <Eddi|zuHause> you said that before
22:49:11 <kormer> When compiling under VS, do I need to extract all the tars insude the essential zip, or is just unzipping the essentials to a directory enough?
22:52:47 *** valhallasw has joined #openttd
22:55:52 <kormer> and I just realized I downloaded the source file when I really wanted the headers/libraries
23:01:04 <jonty-comp> why do i keep forgetting to fix that
23:01:07 <jonty-comp> i shall fix it now!
23:16:08 <kormer> ok if my earlier questions weren't stupid enough, where does VS put the compiled exe after a successful build?
23:17:07 <michi_cc> objs\{win32,x64}\{Debug,Release}\openttd.exe
23:20:05 <Eddi|zuHause> VS has a "run this program" button, which should work :)
23:21:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i guess nobody was bored enough in the last 5 years to figure out how to copy the exe at the end of the compile run
23:21:27 <kormer> well I stupidly asked it to recompile, so I'll have to wait to look there
23:48:23 <Supercheese> What is this, the OTTD wiki doesn't use disambiguation pages?
23:48:32 <Supercheese> I thought those were wiki staples
23:54:19 <Supercheese> How am I supposed to disambiguate users now?
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continue to next day ⏵
