IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-02-25
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00:25:39 <MinchinWeb> Anyone have any experience with recolour sprits?
00:29:13 <Eddi|zuHause> nobody has ever "experience" with anything
00:29:51 <Supercheese> I've never used custom recolor sprites
00:39:11 <MinchinWeb> hmm... I guess I'll keep reading and see if I make any headway...
00:42:53 <Eddi|zuHause> thank you for wasting all of our time, anyway.
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01:21:50 <[1]Karan> Is there something that would build track instead of me in multiplayer??
01:24:03 <kormer> You could enable ai's, and then join an AI corp.
01:24:17 <kormer> That can get out of hand though, so use caution
01:25:30 <[1]Karan> I was thinking something that i can use in real multiplayer?
01:25:53 <[1]Karan> If i could just point from station to station and track would been build?
01:25:53 <Supercheese> You can use AIs in multiplayer, no?
01:26:02 <Supercheese> I've personally not tried
01:26:18 <Supercheese> Server host might be the one who configures AIs
01:26:36 <kormer> The server admin needs to set it up, yes, and the AI is never going to do what you want it to anyways
01:26:44 <Eddi|zuHause> you can have AI companies, but they cannot be controlled by a human
01:26:51 <Supercheese> Ah, nevermind then
01:27:11 <[1]Karan> dont you want to play?
01:27:15 <kormer> Someday I'd like to try designing a "helper" ai that does useful tasks for the human rather than just building all on their own.
01:27:18 <[1]Karan> some city builder chalenges?
01:27:36 <[1]Karan> I think if there was track building tools
01:27:40 <kormer> exactly like Karan said, it'd be awesome if you could just build two stations, and the AI builds a route between them.
01:27:42 <[1]Karan> like finding optimal path..
01:28:10 <[1]Karan> it couldnt be so hard theres are some path finding algorithms already
01:28:52 <[1]Karan> btw dont you know some interesting chatrooms?
01:29:20 <kormer> oh yea, I looked into it long enough to realize it was doable, I just haven't had time to do it.
01:31:16 <Eddi|zuHause> AI pathfinding works as long as you assume the map is mostly empty. once a significant amount is blocked, it'll fail
01:31:45 <[1]Karan> how does ai build then?
01:32:19 <Eddi|zuHause> they don't... just try a map with lots of water
01:32:28 <[1]Karan> i never played with compiuter but compiuter buildds tracks?
01:32:38 <Eddi|zuHause> and several AI players
01:33:10 <[1]Karan> someone just didnt have the time to implemented it right way
01:33:33 <[1]Karan> zuHause do you know some chat rooms?
01:34:06 <Eddi|zuHause> like, have i met any?
01:34:23 <[1]Karan> I need to find someone somewhere who knows answer on my question.. but my question never been easy ones
01:34:49 <[1]Karan> only few ppl having the answer and i dont know how to find them
01:35:12 <Eddi|zuHause> that i really can't help you with...
01:38:40 <Flygon> Depends on how you connect to the server, and if the server supports it, and if the client supports it...
01:50:44 <[1]Karan> Do anyone want to join with me City builder chalenge?? I never won one
01:53:40 <[1]Karan> How can i find list of all channels on irc?
02:08:39 <MinchinWeb> if you want an 'AI' to build a track for you, you probably want to use a GameScript
02:09:52 <MinchinWeb> the problem is the pathfinding... the computer can figure it out, but it takes a really long time
02:12:29 <MinchinWeb> pathfinding time typically grows exponentially with distance
02:53:50 <Eddi|zuHause> ... that is of course total nonsense
02:55:31 <Eddi|zuHause> pathfinding is one of the few things in information theory that has a linear upper bound in the number of nodes in the graph
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07:09:21 * peter1138 await the arrival of coffee
07:10:29 <peter1138> it does if the wifey brings it
07:10:53 <Twofish> Lucky you ;) I usually need to get it myself :/
07:11:06 <peter1138> i probably will too in this case
07:11:41 <Twofish> Just arrived at work. Could do with some coffee too, but got to get it myself here aswell...
07:12:55 <Twofish> ... so, just checking that everything is up before taking some long minutes to get a cup and some coffee :)
07:17:00 <peter1138> all keys now working
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07:25:08 <andythenorth> might as well jump
07:25:25 <peter1138> do, de, do, do de, do de do dum duuuuum
07:27:11 <andythenorth> Monday morning Van Halen innit
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08:15:05 <Pokka> with big american steam engines, and "big" diagonals, the steam particles are now generated too low :o
08:22:42 <andythenorth> newnewgrfneweffects
08:29:26 <V453000> what are big diagonals? :o
08:31:35 <V453000> never cared about those values :D I just draw how it feels at that moment
08:34:25 <V453000> also for vehicles which are not with square roof, it is a bit hard to tell :P
08:35:39 <V453000> either way I think keeping the heights the same of both diagonals and side views is just fine
08:36:45 <Pokka> most of the MUs and such in NUTS seem to be drawn that way, I had to hunt through to find that steam engine ;)
08:37:35 <V453000> those steam engines are a bit weird, those are one of the last things remaining from version 0.0.1, I intend to redraw those
08:37:53 <V453000> I think the diagonal view is a bit weird
08:38:10 <V453000> height-wise, not sure
08:38:43 <Pokka> mb will tell me I'm doing it wrong, either way
08:39:25 <Pokka> and with the lighting too, I'm pretty much just mirroring diagonals :P
08:39:38 <V453000> personally I think it is very hard to make a convention especially if you consider those small things like such a steamer, because sometimes the one pixel can be missing, sometimes not
08:39:47 <V453000> Pokka: me too, almost always :D
08:39:51 <Pokka> life's too short and company colour shades too few :)
08:40:24 <Supercheese> 32bpp, full spectrum of brightnesses ;)
08:40:26 <V453000> shades are okay, but I just dont think it is worth drawing that
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08:42:33 <Supercheese> Well, good night folks
08:44:59 <andythenorth> mirroring diagonals
08:45:11 <andythenorth> you'd never find that in the original graphics :P
08:45:23 <andythenorth> not in some vehicles
08:45:27 <andythenorth> nor entire houses
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08:54:33 <V453000> Pokka: big steamers ... they sort of keep the height
08:54:51 <V453000> I believe they come from the template below them (the caterpillar with a face)
08:56:20 <V453000> but my point is, if you inspect it closely, sometimes it is shifted a pixel here and there or such, just cause it fits more in that situation
08:56:30 <V453000> so rules ~whatever :)
08:57:17 <Pokka> but if you look at, for example, the template image mb just linked to in a thread... the diagonals of the template are lower than the horizontal :)
08:57:38 <Pokka> so, inasmuch as mb's template is "right", "right" is wrong. :P
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09:03:19 <V453000> most of my vehicles come from the caterpillar template, but some differ and I dont even know which anymore tbh
09:03:40 <V453000> I usually just make some "convention" for trains which are connecting together so they fit nicely
09:04:32 <V453000> my top favourite template is the maglev from NUTS actually, making the trains fatter
09:05:14 <V453000> for 4/8 wagon it means it is as wide as long
09:05:49 <V453000> which means you dont have to mirror diagonals because they are automatic if you make the sides the same :D
09:06:32 <V453000> 1 sprite for 4 directions ftw
09:09:36 <V453000> and to the topic, the -- sprites are actually 1px LOWER than the diagonals :D
09:10:15 <V453000> admittedly they dont look too square in that view, but that always gets deformed
09:15:32 <Pokka> yes, the difference in vehicle length between the diagonal and horizontal is not anything we can do anything about, unfortunately
09:18:22 <planetmaker> I really wonder whether there's no way to properly-sized vehicles in the diagonals...
09:18:49 <Pokka> too many knock-on effects, I think
09:18:50 <planetmaker> ... but I've no real good idea to tackle that even conceptually
09:19:05 <Pokka> not least of which would be that at the moment, two full-length vehicles == one tile
09:20:00 <Pokka> it's part of the charm... wouldn't be TTD if you fixed it :P
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09:52:15 <joey8> hi - ttd 1.2.3 can anyone tell me how to stop those annoying blue panel messages with info on "message from manufacturers" please
09:52:27 <joey8> i have switched off all other message yet this one still displays
09:55:16 <V453000> shouldnt you be rather happy you get a vehicle earlier? :D
09:55:31 <V453000> I dont think you can disable that message however
09:55:56 <V453000> I assume it got annoying because you added a shitload of vehicle sets
09:56:41 <peter1138> dynamicengines ... remove it?
09:56:58 <peter1138> though ukrs addons might conflict with ukrs then :p
09:59:39 <V453000> removing features doesnt mean it becomes idiotproof peter1138 :P
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10:01:18 <V453000> also honestly most train sets massively benefit from having a friend in the game with them
10:09:20 <Pokka> joey8: if you accept one and then don't build it, you won't get any more for a while.
10:11:29 <V453000> I didnt know there is any condition about that
10:13:08 <Pokka> "If you accept an exclusive use offer but don't bother to build any of the new vehicle type, you won't get any more trial offers for the next 5 years."
10:13:25 <Pokka> original TTD feature :)
10:14:01 <joey8> thanx very much pokka ヅ
10:14:26 <peter1138> Pokka, whether that actually works properly in ottd is another matter ;)
10:14:48 <Pokka> I assume that all info on the OpenTTD wiki is 100% accurate, peter1138
10:15:36 <jonty-comp> wikis are always 100% accurate, it's like the definition of a wiki
10:27:48 <V453000> I would believe him then
11:53:30 <peter1138> maybe he'd read the wiki :)
11:58:28 <Pokka> maybe your mother reads the news on channel 4
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13:20:57 <Pokka> look out, it's andythenorth
13:21:10 <jonty-comp> i much prefer bobbythesouth
13:22:06 <Pokka> and I mean that most sincerely, I really do
13:27:52 <andythenorth> are you genuine? o_O
13:28:54 <Pokka> like a a plague of German knee zeppelins
13:29:29 <andythenorth> you have those now?
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13:45:22 <Eddi|zuHause> <Pokka> not least of which would be that at the moment, two full-length vehicles == one tile <-- well the obvious solution to that is to shorten the - and | views instead of making the / and \ views longer
14:01:18 <V453000> Pokka: I dared to reply to your blog article :P
14:02:20 <V453000> you might find some parts of it useful :)
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14:10:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see any reply, is it stuck in some moderation queue or something?
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14:11:25 <V453000> you might be observing a wrong post :D I replied to the older one
14:12:39 <andythenorth> talking on the internet, not on tt-forums
14:12:49 <andythenorth> how does that work? :)
14:13:29 <V453000> im replying to the post not to some damn tt-f :P
14:14:05 <andythenorth> graphically as well as organising-ly
14:14:26 <V453000> thanks :) spent like 4 days making it
14:16:27 <peter1138> far too much effort
14:18:03 <V453000> effort you like doing is okay I guess :P
14:18:41 <Eddi|zuHause> how is your effort doing a similar table for each of the CETS selections going? :p
14:18:52 <andythenorth> can you do one for Squid please
14:18:57 <andythenorth> with a nice background texture
14:19:11 <andythenorth> the set has a structure, I'll let you figure it out though ;)
14:19:20 <andythenorth> have it done by 5pm
14:19:33 <V453000> Eddi|zuHause: are 90% trains green boxes so far? :D
14:19:51 <Eddi|zuHause> more like 95% :)
14:20:47 <andythenorth> CETS is big eh? :D
14:36:00 <Elukka> central european train set
14:36:10 <Elukka> i drew a few sprites for it once upon a time but i failed to be terribly productive
14:36:35 <Elukka> i still really want to play it, real length coaches and locomotives are the best thing :P
14:37:42 <Pokka> V453000, your ideas are good, but with 10CC I'm not at all aiming for "as many options as possible". ;)
14:38:23 <V453000> I expected you could get inspired by some of them Pokka, not try to replicate/challenge as many as possible :P
14:39:49 <Pokka> 10CC is almost like each set is one of your "classes" :) so the gameplay and optimal strategy is different depending on which set you use
14:40:10 <Pokka> whether that will be interesting remains to be seen :)
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14:54:54 <planetmaker> what's the use, Eddi|zuHause ?
14:55:13 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: offering a "random" choice to the CETS parameters
14:55:42 <planetmaker> like a global random value? Hm
14:55:48 <planetmaker> Might be interesting
14:55:56 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, this would be global var 0x26
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14:56:16 <Eddi|zuHause> the question is, is this value initialised already during grf activation stages?
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14:57:08 <planetmaker> At least the random_seed has a value before that, I assume. But yes, needs checking
14:57:20 <planetmaker> But you can explicitly set it in the map gen window... so... should be known
14:57:45 <planetmaker> so should exist at the very start of mapgen
14:57:54 * Pokka too would very much like a universal seed available to newgrf
14:58:51 <andythenorth> what would we do with it? o_O
14:59:02 <jonty-comp> seed all the random parameters in your grf with it
14:59:13 <jonty-comp> then if someone wants that exact combination of boxcars for whatever reason
14:59:18 <jonty-comp> they can use that seed
14:59:31 <jonty-comp> depending on other parameters of course
14:59:38 <jonty-comp> BUT I WANT THAT EXACT COMBINATION OF BOXCARS
14:59:49 <Pokka> but it would let me have a "random" option for each player's train set in 10CC, for example, andy.
15:00:08 <planetmaker> Of course it should be clearly noted, that a seed does not guarantee anything to be in whatever shape or form... but yes...
15:00:30 * Pinkbeast owes the 10CC post a reply
15:00:36 <planetmaker> ... should not boil down to "do until you have a random seed ending in 16" in order to get a behaviour "I need"
15:00:50 <planetmaker> which is what I would fear would happen
15:01:13 <Pokka> we need a name for this
15:01:55 <Pokka> "I'm reluctant to add this feature because newgrf authors will use it to break the game"
15:03:14 <Pokka> is the map seed even stored in the savegame, or is it thrown away after generation?
15:03:16 <planetmaker> I call it "thinking it through": looking at a feature from all sides one can think of and assessing the implications
15:03:25 <planetmaker> the seed remains known
15:03:28 <Pokka> if it's stored, all you need to do is give newgrf access to it
15:03:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Pokka: it's stored
15:03:31 <peter1138> i think it's stored, but it's not used
15:03:45 <Eddi|zuHause> you can get it from command line
15:03:50 <planetmaker> you can use it for the restart(?) command
15:03:58 <planetmaker> and what eddi says
15:04:08 <peter1138> but if you have the random seed you can cheat by finding where the diamonds are on your local pc
15:04:20 <peter1138> no that's minecraft
15:04:28 <planetmaker> but only when you want to accept blue wagons, peter1138 ;-)
15:04:54 <Pokka> planetmaker: my response to lakie's argument is that I can already make a newgrf full of vehicles which have 1hp, a 1 year lifespan and cost a million dollars.
15:05:12 <Pokka> and nor will they use any other grf I write that does stupid things
15:05:30 <Pokka> so don't worry about newgrf authors doing stupid things, the worst they can do is make it so no-one uses their grf :)
15:05:45 <peter1138> if any grf is labelled pikka
15:05:52 <peter1138> everyone will just use it
15:06:05 <Pokka> maybe for a little while, peter1138 :P
15:06:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't use Pikkas grfs!! :p
15:06:31 <Eddi|zuHause> (actually, i do use av8)
15:06:40 <Eddi|zuHause> (but i hate planes)
15:06:45 <peter1138> only stupid things to worry about are those that cause desyncs
15:06:53 <Eddi|zuHause> (actually, i mostly hate airports)
15:08:11 <planetmaker> Pokka, that goes on quite a tangent - and is no argument in any favour of anything
15:08:15 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: it shouldn't if it's made sure that the random seed is set before grf activation. possibly it's Bad(TM) to use it to modify the action14, although that may be problematic already
15:08:21 <planetmaker> As it would argue "add any shit I can think of" similarily
15:10:00 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, i was talking about in general
15:10:03 <planetmaker> the question which IMHO must be answered is "is there another way for the same effect which is better"?
15:10:31 <planetmaker> e.g. giving a random value to each newgrf which is generated by OpenTTD based on the randomseed
15:10:42 <planetmaker> but not immediately known
15:11:46 <planetmaker> that for instance wouldn't make a difference to the newgrf developer. But for the end user experience - as in it being seemingly "more random"
15:12:14 <planetmaker> and possibly gives different results also on the order of NewGRFs.
15:26:14 <Pokka> a quasi-random value is a quasi-random value, planetmaker
15:26:25 <Pokka> but I'd say there's some benefit to every grf having access to the same one
15:27:19 <peter1138> now limit it to 1 bit
15:27:48 <Pokka> that would be less beneficial :)
15:29:02 <Pokka> planetmaker: it's not meant to be an argument in favour of anything
15:29:30 <Pokka> merely an argument to counter "what I would fear would happen"
15:29:50 <planetmaker> but it doesn't counter that
15:30:07 <Pokka> maybe I misunderstood what you meant, then
15:31:23 <planetmaker> I want to avoid something like "I need a random value ending in X for newgrf x and at the same time ending in Y for NewGRF y in order to get it 'right'"
15:31:43 <Pokka> oh, from a player's point of view?
15:31:45 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: so every grf would not get "seed" but "random^(n+1)(seed)" where n is the position in the grf list?
15:31:54 <planetmaker> I don't see that game being possible with map values...
15:32:07 <planetmaker> maybe, yes, Eddi|zuHause
15:32:34 <planetmaker> Pokka, yes. That was my concern.
15:32:34 <Eddi|zuHause> and a^n is calling the a function recursively n times
15:33:15 <Pokka> well, personally, I wouldn't use it for anything "obvious" that I didn't also give the player the option to set manually, because otherwise I agree, players would do that.
15:33:45 <Eddi|zuHause> same for me, but one might as well do it "right" the first time around :)
15:33:54 <Pokka> ie, the thing I'd use it for immediately would be parameters with options like "A, B, C, D, random"
15:34:01 <Eddi|zuHause> so... how does this random system work?
15:34:39 <planetmaker> sure, Pokka, and in that I see no problem at all. On the contrary
15:35:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Pokka: but i see planetmaker's two points, 1) people "cheating" by easily abusing the internals (weak point), 2) "correlation" between two grfs which read the same bits of the random seed
15:36:19 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, iirc - without looking it up again - the randomseed defines a starting number for the random generator. And then based on that subsequently random numbers can be issued... mind there's two random numbers: one for things which need be desync-safe, one for stuff where it doesn't matter
15:36:39 <planetmaker> we definitely want the first kind
15:37:01 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: no, we need a third kind, one where we provide a new intitial random seed
15:37:41 <Eddi|zuHause> then we can reproduce the random number exactly every time the variable is read, so we don't need to store anything
15:38:46 <Eddi|zuHause> but what i actually wanted to know is: where in the code are these random functions defined?
15:38:56 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, one initial one suffices, if the number we generate from it follows a clear algorithm
15:39:02 <planetmaker> something like you suggested
15:39:54 <planetmaker> core/random_func.hpp and friends, I'd say
15:40:18 <planetmaker> there's also a cpp
15:40:30 <Eddi|zuHause> that explains why my grep didn't return anything :p
15:41:10 <planetmaker> I grepped for "Interactive" :D
15:41:53 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but i grepped in *.h
15:43:00 <Eddi|zuHause> so, i make a new Randomizer(); and then random.Next(n)?
15:46:37 <Eddi|zuHause> what do you mean?
15:48:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't seem to access the "grf position in list" property, though
15:51:01 <Eddi|zuHause> might be better to put the seed in a member in GRFFile
15:51:12 <planetmaker> I'm not too much worried about all newgrfs getting the same number... that actually might be beneficial.
15:51:52 <planetmaker> though each its own... doesn't hurt... maybe the random number for a grf would then simply need storing.
15:52:03 <planetmaker> And each NewGRF is assigned one upon map generation, that's it
15:52:27 <planetmaker> then the normal random number generators need not be changed and is just called once for each newgrf
15:57:44 <Pokka> one global and one per grf would cover all bases? ;)
16:00:24 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not like we run out of global variables any time soon :p
16:00:24 <tracerpt> Is there a list on the compatibility of NewGRF's? In the game where I'm testing all this new stuff I downloaded, some don't seem to be activated, although they are active on the list
16:00:50 <planetmaker> there's no such list, tracerpt
16:01:02 <tracerpt> guess it's hit and miss then :)
16:01:12 <planetmaker> but any newgrf you can download ingame *should* work. but maybe not with another newgrf you want to use concurrently
16:01:19 <Eddi|zuHause> tracerpt: each NewGRF may or may not have its own list what it is compatible with
16:01:33 <planetmaker> e.g. you usually never can use two different industry newgrfs. And all pikka grfs need a parameter set to work properly
16:01:35 <tracerpt> Yeah, I've seen some with warnings
16:03:22 <tracerpt> really liked it, there isn't a dull moment ingame anymore
16:05:34 <tracerpt> back when the original TT was released I translated the game to portuguese so my dad could play, all this new stuff, too confusing for me lol
16:05:48 <tracerpt> new stuff as in "recently found out about it"
16:07:05 <planetmaker> you could also help translate this game (or NewGRFs like FIRS :D )
16:07:06 <Pokka> all pikka grfs need a parameter set to work properly wat?
16:07:23 <planetmaker> Pokka, your safety check for multiple engine sets. So technically maybe not all
16:07:50 <Pokka> UKRS2 doesn't, av8 doesn't (as of today :))
16:08:02 <Pokka> the ones which aren't vehicle sets don't :)
16:09:12 <planetmaker> but nice :-) I'll adjust my explanation in the future :-)
16:09:22 <planetmaker> "Pikka's old vehicle sets..." ;-)
16:10:31 <planetmaker> but I guess I also simply could say NARS / UKRS
16:10:46 <V453000> why do you have that anyway Pokka?
16:10:54 <V453000> if it can be disabled by parameter
16:11:09 <planetmaker> getting rid of the liability for graphics glitches
16:11:54 <planetmaker> due to newgrf incompatibility... but yes...
16:12:20 <V453000> hm, can you think of an example of such a glitch?
16:12:32 <Pokka> the parameter was basically a "click here to acknowledge you know what you're doing" button
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16:13:13 <V453000> with an extra parameter "are you absolutely sure?" which then burns their PC? :D
16:13:47 <planetmaker> V453000, wagon / train alignment
16:14:05 <Pokka> actual incompatibility is largely gone thanks to OpenTTD, but yes, things like that
16:14:08 <planetmaker> and mixing them from different sets
16:14:27 <Pokka> and if people load WAS, planeset and Av8 together and have three different aircraft with the same name and wildly different stats
16:14:40 <V453000> right :) I solve that by not allowing the engines to attach anything else than their dedicated wagons
16:14:48 <planetmaker> he, that must also look funky then. Never tried WAS+av8+planeset
16:14:56 <peter1138> dynamicengines... should be removed
16:15:02 <peter1138> (but not 65535 engine ids)
16:15:04 <tracerpt> planetmaker: if help is needed i could render some in my spare time
16:15:13 <Pokka> then how would I do 10CC with separate grfs, peter1138 ?
16:15:25 <peter1138> use non-conflicting engine ids
16:15:44 <tracerpt> back then i used an hex editor to translate the text lol
16:15:59 <peter1138> dynamicengines allows multiple sets to use the "same" ids
16:16:18 <peter1138> the increased engine id limit is still there even with that off
16:16:48 <tracerpt> first link doesn't workl
16:17:05 <peter1138> (dynamic engines probably should be removed and made default)
16:17:34 <planetmaker> it's still a setting, though
16:17:45 <planetmaker> but... possibly could be removed as setting
16:18:03 <andythenorth> it's a silly setting
16:18:06 <Pokka> it may be wanted by some for compatibility with very, very ancient newgrfs
16:18:26 <tracerpt> Portuguese 99.6 % complete 15 untranslated
16:18:39 <tracerpt> doens't say it needs translators :p
16:18:49 <V453000> why would anyone turn that setting off ever anyway
16:19:04 <Pokka> compatibility with very, very ancient newgrfs, V453000
16:19:11 <planetmaker> Pokka, are there some ancient newgrfs with add-on?
16:19:34 <planetmaker> maybe it's db-set + ecs/firs add-on. Though I think it (meanwhile) also uses the engine_override action
16:19:34 <Pokka> it wouldn't surprise me if someone didn't once make a grf to modify something in dbset or something
16:19:35 <V453000> I mean turning dynamic engine pool off
16:19:53 <Pokka> not every newgrf which exists is known :)
16:19:58 <peter1138> wasn't there lv4 + lv4-scantily-clad
16:20:11 <Pokka> something like that, peter1138
16:20:29 <peter1138> the dbset one has a hardcoded override lol
16:21:07 <peter1138> ukrs addons -> ukrs
16:21:11 <peter1138> dbsetxl ecs -> dbsetxl
16:21:19 <peter1138> all hard coded overrides
16:21:55 <planetmaker> how would dynamic overrides work? Change stats of random engine to ... :D
16:22:19 <peter1138> newgrfs can provide overrides of course
16:22:32 <planetmaker> and re random variable for newgrfs: funny would be like "today I'm an industry NewGRF, in the next game I could be a vehicle set" :D (no, I don't mind that)
16:23:08 <planetmaker> peter1138, you meant hardcoded overrides as in not using the override feature to work with dynamic engines enabled?
16:23:23 <tracerpt> bookmarked the translation stuff
16:23:26 <planetmaker> then I mis-understood you
16:23:28 <tracerpt> will check it out later
16:23:32 <Pokka> that would be good, planetmaker
16:23:48 <Pokka> I'll just put all my grfs in one file and use the random number to pick which ones get activated :)
16:24:05 <peter1138> i mean src/newgrf.cpp:9119
16:24:10 <peter1138> (so many lines in that file)
16:27:02 <planetmaker> and there someone shall come and say we don't care about NewGRF developers ;-)
16:28:06 <Pokka> who would ever say that? :)
16:28:15 <planetmaker> though, peter1138, they were iirc previously part of the extra baseset. That was changed from there to the openttd internal place somewhen... one, two years ago, iirc
16:29:34 <planetmaker> Zusammenfassung: (svn r23232) -Change: move the "default" overrides out of the baseset in order to ensure they all use the same values
16:29:41 <tracerpt> bbl gonna buy some 200more trains ;)
16:33:43 <michi_cc> And maybe I have broken 10.4 i386 with it, so if somebody still has that combination around...
16:34:10 <planetmaker> so that would need osx 10.7, right?
16:38:38 <Maedhros> michi_cc: sure, i can try that (10.8 here)
16:38:55 <michi_cc> planetmaker: If everything is done right, fullscreen should work on everything.
16:39:31 <michi_cc> I.e. knowing that fullscreen isn't broken on 10.6 is just as important.
16:43:56 <peter1138> what's this, openttd devs with osx? :p
16:43:58 <Maedhros> michi_cc: all seems to work, except that there's no mouse pointer in full screen until you've moved the mouse out of the window and back in (e.g. up to the menu bar and back)
16:44:14 <peter1138> fullscreen... window... what?
16:44:34 <Maedhros> michi_cc: i do have a patch for that if you're interested, although i'm not sure it's the most sensible approach
16:44:50 <michi_cc> Maedhros: No clue how to fix that, but let's see anyway.
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16:47:24 <Maedhros> michi_cc: basically, going to fullscreen generates a mouseExit event, but not a mouseEnter afterwards
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16:49:57 <andythenorth> hmm all grfs in one
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16:50:33 <andythenorth> planetmaker michi_cc: I have 10.7
16:50:45 <andythenorth> can you remind me later tonight?
16:51:44 <planetmaker> michi_cc, can you repeat the link please? Backlog starts at my last babbling at university ;-)
16:52:39 <Eddi|zuHause> bäh this grf loading code is confusing :/
16:53:12 <michi_cc> Maedhros: Any reason for the MAC_OS_X_VERSION_MAX_ALLOWED #ifs? Would these methods just not be called on < 10.7, or is it because of the things called in the methods? Anything that is not 10.5 SDK will not be in our compile farm builds.
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16:54:18 <andythenorth> Pokka: FWIW I use loads of 0-4-0
16:54:20 <Maedhros> michi_cc: no particular reason, no - just trying to be consistent with other code
16:54:26 <andythenorth> but mostly for lol
16:54:28 <Maedhros> like i said, probably not the most sensible approach :)
16:55:04 <planetmaker> michi_cc, it's to not compile-fail with earlier (or later) OSX-SDKs
16:55:47 <michi_cc> It seems at least NSWindowDidEnterFullScreenNotification isn't defined in the 10.5 SDK, so either we'd need to duplicate the definition there or find a different way.
16:56:13 <michi_cc> planetmaker: I know, but that doesn't help if the target for the time being is the 10.5 SDK.
16:57:25 <Pokka> andythenorth, 10CC scuddlesland edition, all 0-4-0s
16:57:49 <andythenorth> gives me an idea
16:58:20 <V453000> andy having an idea sounds evil
16:58:32 <Pinkbeast> I think I use HEQS vehicles for anything one might use an 0-4-0 for
16:58:39 <andythenorth> 0-4-0 Fast: 25 HP, 90mph
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16:58:54 <andythenorth> 0-4-0 High TE, 10mph, weighs 200t
16:59:07 <andythenorth> want more power?
16:59:13 <andythenorth> add more engines
17:01:29 <Pokka> let's just give it random stats with the new random feature :)
17:05:42 *** ToBeFree is now known as [ToBeThree
17:05:59 *** [ToBeThree is now known as ToBeFree
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17:10:19 <peter1138> hmm[][ap][apd][sapd'
17:10:55 <ToBeFree> I was detecting a bug in TuxBot, running on this network
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17:12:44 <__ln__> so Christoph Waltz won his second Academy Award®. for a good reason.
17:17:46 <michi_cc> I hope that doesn't break < 10.7, if it works ar all :)
17:21:35 <Maedhros> michi_cc: works for me
17:22:49 <peter1138> yay, i have my normal keyboard back
17:22:54 <peter1138> although it feels a little odd
17:23:07 <peter1138> probably just need everything to reseat
17:27:13 <planetmaker> michi_cc: works for me on OSX 10.6
17:27:36 <planetmaker> (though ofc I still get the crash when using cmd+h - but that's nothing the patches address or intend to)
17:27:53 <planetmaker> cmd+h = minimize to task bar
17:28:09 <planetmaker> rather: when trying to restore it then again
17:28:13 <michi_cc> Hmm, what else could I have broken... :) Compilation SDK change, font detection still good?
17:28:32 <michi_cc> planetmaker: Do you get a usable stack trace?
17:32:34 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: i'm sure the other nominees have done a great job as well
17:33:07 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: although i'm not sure how far their definition of "supporting role" spreads
17:35:03 <Maedhros> michi_cc: if you're looking at OS X stuff, any chance you could change "OTTD" to "OpenTTD" in cocoa_v.mm:94 ? it doesn't look great in the menu imho ;)
17:36:07 <michi_cc> planetmaker: What is the restoreCachedImage used for? Does it work if restoreCachedImage and cacheImageInRect are simply removed?
17:40:19 <planetmaker> I never tried... let's look
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17:49:29 <Maedhros> aha, that works better :)
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18:16:51 <mseidl> are power plans limited to how much coal they can tak ebased on population they supply?
18:19:18 <frosch123> if they are, then it's due to the industry newgrf you are using
18:25:08 <NGC3982> __ln__: What's your view on Sannfinnarna?
18:26:36 <Pinkbeast> mseidl: ie, not by default
18:32:32 <__ln__> NGC3982: well they aren't the nazi party 2.0 even though the swedish-speaking party and de gröna are trying to build such a reputation for them in foreign media.
18:33:44 <NGC3982> "De grna", as in a Finnish party?
18:34:33 <NGC3982> I haven't really put any thought into it, but the Swedish media does seem to enjoy the nazi references.
18:37:19 <__ln__> surely they have some racist members, but that's still quite far away from being racist as a party.
18:37:40 <NGC3982> I guess they can be compared to the Swedish Democratic party?
18:37:52 <NGC3982> Questionable members, but no real danger.
18:38:58 <__ln__> was swedish democrats the party organizing summer camps for white people?
18:39:55 <NGC3982> Not really. Some of the people that appears in higher parts of the Democratic party, used to be in the Nationalistic Socialist Party.
18:40:17 <NGC3982> The latter had summer camps for arians, and similar.
18:40:28 <NGC3982> The NSP was a real nazi party.
18:41:04 <NGC3982> Sorry, "National Socialistic Front" was the real name,
18:44:21 <__ln__> there are only two openly racist parties in finland, some insignificantly small "freedom party" and much more significant "svenska folkpartiet i finland".
18:45:18 <NGC3982> Haven't even heard of that last one.
18:45:22 <NGC3982> For good reason, i hope.
18:45:34 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25048 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2013-02-25 18:45:24 UTC)
18:45:35 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:36 <DorpsGek> norwegian_nynorsk - 84 changes by somaen, terjesc
18:45:37 <DorpsGek> polish - 1 changes by wojteks86
18:45:39 <DorpsGek> romanian - 15 changes by mariush
18:45:40 <DorpsGek> gaelic - 86 changes by
18:48:44 <__ln__> NGC3982: they wouldn't admit it themselves though, and the party is very in favor of immigration (no matter what kind).
18:50:33 <__ln__> but for instance, they want to maintain the segregation between finnish-speaking and swedish-speaking schools. it's not acceptable that both languages would be used in the same school building.
18:52:06 <__ln__> in practice they're probably afraid that swedish speakers would get too much exposed to finnish.
18:59:35 <mseidl> do i need to do anything regarding pre-signals? it says it will let more than one train onto the block but the train is always stopped even thoough there is more than enough room
19:04:17 <Maedhros> mseidl: you need path-based signals (PBS) not pre-signals for that
19:05:38 <Pinkbeast> Unless "it" is permissive signals with two trains following each other with no signals between them. Nothing does that.
19:05:55 <mseidl> Pinkbeast: wait, do i need signals all the way down?
19:07:15 <Pinkbeast> It's a little vague what you mean by that, but it will never be the case that two trains run on the same bit of line without a signal between them.
19:08:05 <mseidl> i have a loading loop with a 2 track station, both stations are connected by a single line. i want it so that if one train is going to the left, any trains on the right can follow it and go to the left, and any trains on the left are waiting to go towards the right
19:08:37 <Pinkbeast> Definitely we're at "post an image of the layout" time
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19:09:55 <mseidl> so around the lundinghattan ridge, that's how both of my stations look
19:09:56 <Pinkbeast> ugh, png, please, but I'll take a look
19:10:07 <mseidl> it's not my actual screen shot
19:10:23 <mseidl> but i have no signals between either station
19:10:32 <Pinkbeast> jpg compression tends to mangle screenshots very badly
19:10:53 <Pinkbeast> Err so this is not the game you are actually playing?
19:11:59 <mseidl> i just copied the layouts and now i used regular path signals
19:12:07 <mseidl> and now i crashed my trains!
19:12:37 <Pinkbeast> If you crashed a train you fiddled with signals when a train was approaching them or ordered a train to pass a signal at danger
19:12:51 <mseidl> and i couldnt get rid of it fast enough :)
19:13:58 <Pinkbeast> Are the blue lines on that diagram significant?
19:14:25 <mseidl> ignore any of the picture outside lundinghattan ridge
19:14:42 <mseidl> including the blue lines
19:14:45 <Pinkbeast> OK, then I have no idea what the question is, I'm afraid
19:15:23 <mseidl> i have no path signals on the connecting track between the 2 stations, the stations are almost identical (slightly different due to space constraints
19:15:39 <mseidl> Pinkbeast: lets say i have a station on the right, and on the left
19:16:02 <Pinkbeast> I really suggest you actually post a screenshot of the game you are playing, but OK.
19:16:20 <mseidl> if a train is going from left to right, any other trains on the left should be able to follow the train going right
19:16:21 <Pinkbeast> I guess you might be trying to have multiple trains follow each other on a single-line section used in both directions?
19:16:38 <Pinkbeast> There is no good way to do that.
19:17:27 <mseidl> should i pay big money for dual lines?
19:17:40 <Pinkbeast> Passing places would be an intermediate solution
19:22:27 <mseidl> Pinkbeast: what's the best option?
19:22:35 <Pinkbeast> If short of money, passing places.
19:22:48 <Pinkbeast> Nearly all the track you lay for them will be useful for a dual line later.
19:22:53 * andythenorth works on Squid. Which is better, complicated, or simple?
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19:24:07 <planetmaker> one tentacle left. One tentacle right. Eat through the middle
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19:25:24 <mseidl> Pinkbeast: i have over 1 million pounds
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20:15:19 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I have an Eddi shaped problem
20:16:14 <andythenorth> a ship has one or more associated spritesheets. e.g. ship_0.png, ship_1.png etc
20:16:26 <andythenorth> these correspond to relatively minor graphical variations
20:16:36 <frosch123> which of them has the beard?
20:16:50 <andythenorth> they are chosen at random, but random choice is modified according to build date
20:17:15 <andythenorth> I am controlling dates by two-tuples in a list,
20:17:39 <andythenorth> [(1870,1900),(1870,1930),(1900,1940)] etc
20:18:04 <andythenorth> but I have no idea how to programmatically construct switches for this :P
20:18:30 <NGC3982> If i save a NewGRF setting, and then start a local game. Does the current openttd.cfg get saved somewhere special?
20:18:54 <andythenorth> frosch123 wrt subtype refits, an ellipsis at the end of the cargos with subtypes might work
20:19:02 <NGC3982> I'm trying out NewGRF's for the server on a Windows client, and it would be neat if i could simply copy the GRF list to the server config.
20:22:59 <andythenorth> frosch123: benefit of ellipsis is that it doesn't add padding to lh side of list
20:23:22 <andythenorth> and it wont' create a ragged edge (the non-subtype cargos won't have a + for disclosure, which will look messy)
20:24:31 <frosch123> i thought about using the tree stuff from advanced settings
20:24:58 <andythenorth> yes, but what would you show for a cargo with no subtype? o_O
20:30:08 <frosch123> NGC3982: you can copy the stuff from openttd.cfg
20:30:14 <frosch123> but you might need to fix pathes
20:30:30 <frosch123> when moving between win and linux you might need to repalce / and \
20:30:42 <frosch123> i consider it easier to transfer savegames
20:30:42 <NGC3982> All i need is the GRF list. I'm not moving the full file.
20:31:16 <NGC3982> Oh, i also need to download all the NewGRF's to the server.
20:31:32 <__ln__> NGC3982: did you see Dredd yet?
20:31:56 <NGC3982> Is there a way for me to download all the current NewGRF's in one go?
20:33:17 <frosch123> no, sadly the server cannot ask bananas for the stuff from a savegame
20:33:20 <frosch123> only the gui can do that
20:34:03 <NGC3982> I was refering more to the fact that i can't find a "download everything" button on Bananas.openttd.org.
20:34:21 <NGC3982> Since, that would greatly help my savegame moving-and-running process.
20:40:28 <planetmaker> if you run a server, have a look at the content rcon command
20:41:02 <NGC3982> Yes, i'm administrating my servers with rcon.
20:41:15 <andythenorth> probably makes no sense out of context
20:41:18 <NGC3982> I have not yet downloaded anything, or moved/stored NewGRF's with it.
20:41:42 * NGC3982 made a script that downloaded everything with the GUI.
20:49:10 <andythenorth> michi_cc: want me to try the OS X patch?
20:49:47 <andythenorth> what does it fix? :)
20:51:56 <michi_cc> Fullscreen on 10.7+ and maybe some mouse problems.
20:53:07 <andythenorth> k I'm on 10.7.4, Fullscreen appears to work. The animated transition to / from full screen is best described as 'weird'
20:53:26 <andythenorth> and the full screen option in game options shows no 'true' state
20:55:02 <andythenorth> the mouse appears to track better, but the issues with that have been intermittent...so ENoEvidence :)
20:56:10 <andythenorth> the standard OS X full screen option on window title bar works
20:56:17 <andythenorth> it has video glitch
20:56:36 <andythenorth> it's a different animation to choosing full screen from menu / or in game options
20:57:35 <andythenorth> no crash on minimising to / from dock
20:57:56 <andythenorth> video glitch on maximise window (green button)
20:58:51 <andythenorth> full screen only works for native resolution afaict
20:59:58 <andythenorth> any other resolution is ignored and reset to native (OpenTTD full screen)
21:00:29 <andythenorth> for OS X full screen, the resolution is respected, but shown at 1:1 scaled to native resolution, i.e. smaller, no window chrome, over a background
21:01:46 <NGC3982> If i start a server that advertises a certain server name and then load a new game, will the old one still remain advertised?
21:02:45 <andythenorth> michi_cc: let me know if you need any screenshots or such
21:02:47 <andythenorth> couldn't break it
21:02:56 <andythenorth> except for above
21:03:22 <michi_cc> So, better than current or not?
21:06:32 <NGC3982> Of course, i get a NewGRF mismatch.
21:07:53 <andythenorth> michi_cc: better imo
21:08:18 <andythenorth> I forsee new bug reports :(
21:08:20 <NGC3982> I guess that is due to my client (where i saved the game) uses Windows, and the server (where i tried to load the save file) uses Linux.
21:08:34 <andythenorth> wrt lack of control over resolution in full screen
21:08:44 <michi_cc> andythenorth: A bug report about a glitch is better than a bug report about a crash.
21:08:59 <andythenorth> I assume apple have removed the ability to change resolution
21:09:04 <andythenorth> that would be very apple-like
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21:43:03 <peter1138> NGC3982, no, that'll be due to the server not having the same set of NewGRFs
21:48:32 <NGC3982> Yes, i noticed. I had not used a copy command recursivly.
21:48:45 <NGC3982> It is solved, and the server is running.
21:55:10 <DorpsGek> LordAro: Yexo was last seen in #openttd 12 weeks, 3 days, 8 hours, 38 minutes, and 38 seconds ago: <Yexo> <NGC3982> The station glitches are CHIPS related. I adressed it to Andy the other day, and it seems like it's b0rked in some way. <- it's still in the issue tracker for CHIPS, but I haven't had time to look at it yet
22:00:51 <andythenorth> random graphics in squid
22:00:54 <andythenorth> that was easy :)
22:02:39 <andythenorth> might freak a few people out
22:02:50 <andythenorth> but eh, they can always try another ship grf :)
22:03:09 <peter1138> you'll get bug reports
22:03:30 <jonty-comp> so my friend is doing a TV coverage of an ice hockey game
22:03:39 <jonty-comp> and he realised he'd forgotten his laptop with the software that does the score overlay
22:03:46 <jonty-comp> but what did he have? his pi, with a RISC OS system image
22:03:54 <jonty-comp> so he wrote a BBC BASIC PROGRAM TO DISPLAY THE SCORES
22:04:37 <andythenorth> can he also write an open source clone of Chocks Away?
22:05:00 <jonty-comp> the only game I remember from RISC OS is granny's garden
22:05:16 <peter1138> granny's garden was a bbc micro title :S
22:05:19 <andythenorth> peter1138: I'll just add some text to buy menu then... Graphics: Random
22:05:32 <andythenorth> also, where is Ice Cream Stand game, I have been looking for it for years
22:05:39 <andythenorth> you ran an ice cream stand
22:05:57 <jonty-comp> peter1138: yeah well like I say there are BBC BASIC interpreters for RISC OS
22:06:10 <jonty-comp> and i am too young for BBC Micros, but I am not too young for primary schools with no budget
22:06:22 <peter1138> well it's built in, obviously
22:06:58 <andythenorth> 10: color = rnd(12)
22:07:16 <jonty-comp> actually i think we had a port with improved graphics
22:07:16 <andythenorth> ah computer classes at school :)
22:07:57 <jonty-comp> we did have one bbc micro though
22:07:58 <andythenorth> have to use mode 2 iirc
22:08:02 <jonty-comp> the only disk that still worked was podd
22:08:44 <andythenorth> podd was to discover if you had special needs or not
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