IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-02-18
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00:06:10 <Generalcamo> Can I do it per-cargo?
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00:11:02 <Eddi|zuHause> that depends on your skills :)
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01:16:20 <Generalcamo> Is it possible to change industry to accept different inputs for a single output over time?
01:16:49 <Generalcamo> For example, a toy factory accepts only wood until 1960, when it accepts plastic too. In 1980, it stops accepting wood
01:17:33 <Pikka> it is possible, although the industry window will show it always accepts both wood and plastic, so it may be confusing for players.
01:17:48 <Pikka> --always processes wood and plastic
01:18:35 <Generalcamo> I'm trying to create a mod that expands the industrial and transportation portion of the game. From 1811 to present day.
01:18:46 <Generalcamo> Which is why I am asking these questions..
01:24:13 * Pikka bbl
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01:25:21 <Supercheese> Generalcamo: sounds possible so far
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04:35:16 * Supercheese wants NML station support
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04:50:45 <Bad_Brett> *Bad_Brett agrees
05:25:47 <Bad_Brett> it's quite surprising that it hasn't been done yet... i guess it must be rather complex stuff
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05:53:39 <Snail> why don't you try m4nfo? it can do stations
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06:13:03 <Supercheese> Interesting idea
06:13:46 * Supercheese reads the m4nfo manual
06:17:13 <Supercheese> seems loads easier than raw NFO
06:19:36 <Supercheese> I might go write a station grf in m4nfo :)
06:27:28 <__ln__> ave caseus
06:28:55 <peter1138> i still remember m4 being the tool used to configure sendmail
06:29:01 <peter1138> so i'm phobic to it
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06:30:30 <Supercheese> ave logarithmus naturalis
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07:20:22 <andythenorth> orangensaft
07:22:27 <Pikka> don't they
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07:25:31 <andythenorth> not always
07:25:33 <andythenorth> but often
07:27:46 <Pikka> andy, sounds like my problems with capacity for non-pax in av8, cb36 for capacity in the buy menu should fix it.
07:28:06 <Pikka> and not in the buy menu, too :)
07:28:21 <andythenorth> yeah, going to try it
07:31:48 <andythenorth> yeah that works
07:31:54 <andythenorth> easy peasy
07:32:15 <andythenorth>
07:32:25 <andythenorth> pikka you'd have done it *just* like that, right? :)
07:32:53 <Pikka> almost exactly
07:33:00 <andythenorth> barring the details
07:33:10 <andythenorth> perhaps every char or so would have been different
07:33:16 <Pikka> barring the fact that I'd have done it in nfo, yes
07:34:34 <andythenorth> I should write a higher-level abstraction of nml to nfo
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07:37:07 <andythenorth> Pikka: any more screenies? o_O
07:37:16 <andythenorth> or does asking annoy you?
07:37:18 <Pikka> of anything in particular?
07:37:37 <Supercheese> zeppelins :3
07:37:52 <andythenorth> 10cc
07:38:11 <dihedral> greetings
07:38:16 <Pikka> I've got the Mk1s for the british trains in, that's about the only progress since yesterday :)
07:38:26 <Pikka> hello dihedral
07:38:36 <andythenorth> in the web industry, there is a phenomen called "client is sitting at desk hitting 'refresh'"
07:38:43 <andythenorth> which can be lovely and enthusiastic
07:38:45 <andythenorth> or tedious
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07:39:13 <andythenorth> twof*sh, but not Fish 2
07:40:29 <andythenorth> all the best ships are now being built in Canada
07:40:33 <andythenorth> or so I hope :)
07:40:46 <Pikka>
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07:41:08 <Twofish> north noth south?
07:41:16 <andythenorth> have coaches always had grey windows? I missed that
07:41:29 <Pikka> the white on the coaches is 2cc
07:41:43 <Pikka> no, "usually" they have blueypurple windows
07:41:48 <andythenorth> blurple
07:42:15 <Twofish> north not* south? // Not easy to spell when just arrived work... Tired...
07:43:15 <andythenorth> there is a key here
07:44:27 <peter1138> andythetroll?
07:44:53 <Pikka> D:
07:44:58 <peter1138> :)
07:45:18 <peter1138> if CB14D does it, why the report?
07:45:18 <andythenorth> I am trying to think what I could do with that
07:45:34 <peter1138> if CB14D doesn't do it, then the report wants something to not do it
07:45:37 <Pikka> it has a partner
07:45:46 <peter1138> therefore, task is complete :D
07:45:47 <andythenorth> CB14D - houses
07:46:29 <Pikka> yes
07:46:33 <peter1138> my solution: just waste an engine id
07:46:39 <Pikka> :)
07:46:52 <peter1138> there's only 65534 of them after all
07:46:56 <andythenorth> hmm
07:47:12 * Pikka is hoping for a resolution to before tackling a new sound system for 10CC
07:47:20 <andythenorth> Ferry (Steam) < 1940 | Ferry (Diesel) >= 1940
07:47:29 <andythenorth> see I could use that new cb o_O
07:47:36 <Pikka> the way I do sounds at the moment dates back to Pineapple and the original UKRS, it's sounding a bit tired to me :)
07:47:50 <Pikka> yes andy
07:47:54 <Pikka> or just "Ferry" :P
07:48:12 <andythenorth> that too
07:48:39 <andythenorth> new names, or ships with 2 holds?
07:48:42 <andythenorth> pick one :P
07:48:47 <andythenorth> or none
07:48:53 <Pikka> two holds, deffo
07:50:15 <andythenorth> owing to our inimitable ability to add convolutions and complexity in the name of future unknown possible use cases, it will probably be argued extensively that merely 2 holds is not enough, and that holds should be arbitrarily extensible, limited only by addressable memory, and that a GUI must support this, but also none can be found
07:50:19 <andythenorth> ^ complicated is bad :P
07:51:27 <Pikka> articulated ships
07:51:43 <Pikka> would be the best way to do it
07:52:50 <andythenorth> how did your articulated met-cam things pan out?
07:52:52 <Supercheese> articulated everything
07:52:55 <Supercheese> articulated planes
07:52:56 <peter1138>
07:52:57 <Supercheese> articulated houses
07:53:02 <Supercheese> articulated industries
07:53:09 <peter1138> an articulated ship
07:53:14 <Pikka> fake-articulated trains are bad
07:53:22 <Pikka> but ships it would be fine, because you can't string ships together
07:54:15 <Supercheese> why are fake-articulated trains bad? side effects with acceleration calculations?
07:54:16 <andythenorth> k
07:54:25 <andythenorth> bad gui?
07:55:23 <Pikka> use var 10 to show special "hold" sprites in the refit and vehicle detail windows
07:56:08 <Pikka> of course, you can't (afaik) currently refit articulated parts seperately, that would need to change ;)
07:57:01 <Supercheese> only trains have the refit-separately thingy IIRC
07:57:12 <Supercheese> would be nice to e.g. refit FIRS trams separately
07:57:26 <Supercheese> half livestock half grain etc.
07:57:30 <andythenorth> furry trams
07:57:45 <Supercheese> drama trams
07:58:06 <Supercheese> Capacity: 15 Posts of Drama
07:58:45 <peter1138> Source: ozTrans, Destination: tt-forums
07:59:40 <peter1138> let's see who's reading the logs :D
08:00:28 <andythenorth> troll1138
08:00:39 <Pikka> isn't he
08:00:56 <andythenorth> what larks
08:01:09 <andythenorth> so do articulated ships
08:01:15 <andythenorth> and I'll redesign Squid again
08:01:22 <andythenorth> everyone's a winner
08:02:02 <Pikka> everyone's a wiener
08:02:19 <peter1138> super-mega-articulated-container-ships
08:02:30 <peter1138> auto-refittable
08:02:38 <peter1138> transfer-anything-ships
08:02:42 <Pikka> yes
08:02:52 <Pikka> cheap at half the price
08:03:09 <Pikka> also once you patch that they will go faster than 80mph
08:03:24 <Supercheese> Multi-hold articulated ekranoplan
08:03:25 <peter1138> yes, like in FS#5454
08:03:27 <Supercheese> 400 mpg ships
08:03:30 <Supercheese> mph*
08:03:33 <Pikka> then no-one will need to use anything but ships ever again
08:03:54 <peter1138> hmm, i should push that branch
08:06:54 <Pikka> FISH Donald Campbell edition
08:08:12 * Pikka isn't sure he believes in water and land speed records set by jet-powered vehicles
08:08:17 <andythenorth> ship-wagons?
08:08:37 <Pikka> surely there's a point where you stop being a boat or a car and become an aircraft that's only incidentally in contact with the ground/water?
08:09:01 <andythenorth> hydrofoil?
08:09:02 <andythenorth> also
08:09:05 <andythenorth> ship-wagons?
08:09:09 <Pikka> yes
08:09:13 <Pikka> well
08:09:14 <Pikka> no
08:09:16 <andythenorth> could have dreadnought hauling a lot of barges
08:09:19 <andythenorth> would be awesome
08:09:34 <andythenorth> ice barges
08:09:44 <andythenorth> capacity falls if you play tropic :P
08:09:50 <Supercheese> dolphin-towed barges
08:09:58 <andythenorth>
08:09:59 <Pikka> I think RV wagons were discounted on the grounds that it's "unrealistic" and articulated vehicles serve just as well
08:10:48 <Pikka> articulated vehicles where you can refit each part seperately would be the pest of poth worlds I think
08:11:23 <Supercheese> aye
08:11:57 <jonty-comp> dolphins with cargo bags?
08:12:08 <jonty-comp> red alert 2 total conversion grf
08:12:49 <Supercheese> :D
08:12:56 <Supercheese> Kirov Airships
08:13:05 <Supercheese> Chronovehicles
08:13:09 <Supercheese> teleport to destination
08:13:48 <andythenorth> Pikka: rv-wagons were discounted because nobody can be arsed :)
08:13:56 <Pikka> well, that too
08:13:59 <andythenorth> most people who could do it don't like rvs :)
08:14:06 <Supercheese> andy's already got the squid covered ;)
08:14:53 *** Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
08:15:40 <Flygon> What about getting rv trailers refitted with some trailers being powered and some not
08:15:45 <Flygon> Like Australian road trains :B
08:16:06 <Supercheese> road trains already possible far as I can tell
08:16:18 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: a misc flag that says "you can refit each part individually", to not break old GRFs that depend on all vehicles having the same refit?
08:21:56 <andythenorth> container ship: 400 holds (individually refittable)
08:24:20 <planetmaker> so like 1 passenger, 5 mail, 2 sheep, 3 fish, 300 coal ? sounds stupid
08:24:56 <jonty-comp> and then make it hold food as well
08:25:03 <andythenorth> chicken fox grain
08:25:19 <jonty-comp> and the food decreases proportional to how many passengers there are
08:25:21 <planetmaker> no, it's a ship which only runs mid-summer during ramadan
08:25:33 <jonty-comp> over the duration of the journey :P
08:25:34 <planetmaker> North of the polar circle
08:26:09 <peter1138> north of the polar bear
08:26:14 <Eddi|zuHause> one cabbage, one goat, one wolf
08:26:30 <andythenorth> same puzzle?
08:26:34 <jonty-comp> and if the ship doesn't dock for at least 6 ingame months, there is a chance of a zombie outbreak disaster on board
08:26:49 <jonty-comp> in which case it becomes controlled by an agressive AI that crashes it into other ships and infects them
08:27:18 <andythenorth> hmm
08:27:26 <andythenorth> newgrf vehicles that can consume their own cargo
08:27:30 <andythenorth> realism to the fore!
08:27:34 <jonty-comp> oh god, what i have i done
08:27:37 <jonty-comp> D:
08:27:40 <planetmaker> hm, that closes the circle. We're very close to UfoAI then ;-)
08:27:59 <andythenorth> your train has no coal left, it will continue at 1mph
08:28:03 <andythenorth> until you load coal again
08:28:40 <jonty-comp> but it is unrealistic to have a coal train that consumes its own cargo
08:28:45 <andythenorth> tender
08:28:47 <jonty-comp> instead you must have a tender wagon
08:28:56 <jonty-comp> and then distribute coal to every station on your network
08:29:07 <Supercheese> @_@
08:29:34 <andythenorth> it would be fun for small maps
08:29:37 <andythenorth> very small maps
08:29:55 <andythenorth> tinkering
08:29:56 <Supercheese> 64x64
08:29:58 <andythenorth> yes
08:30:01 * Eddi|zuHause points at the fact that you did not _buy_ the coal you're transporting
08:30:07 <andythenorth> meh, details
08:30:08 <jonty-comp> i suspect it would quickly become impossible over a certain size
08:30:18 <jonty-comp> ingame market system!
08:30:30 <andythenorth> jonty-comp: you'd just run round-robin trains dropping off fuel at every station
08:30:36 <andythenorth> it's conceptually easy, just tedious
08:30:45 <Eddi|zuHause> also, you need water for steam engines as well
08:30:48 <Eddi|zuHause> and sand!
08:30:52 <andythenorth> yes
08:30:54 <Eddi|zuHause> and oil!
08:30:57 <andythenorth> railroad tycoon had all thee
08:31:00 <jonty-comp> and spare parts
08:31:00 <andythenorth> these *
08:31:11 <andythenorth> instead we have servicing
08:31:27 <jonty-comp> once stations got too spread out, you'd use more coal than you transported though
08:32:06 <andythenorth> nah it would be fine
08:32:17 <andythenorth> I'd just introduce a 'servicing' industry: produces coal, water, sand
08:32:27 <andythenorth> no input needed :P
08:32:47 <andythenorth> hax
08:34:29 <jonty-comp> you'd have to transport those items to the depots instead of the stations, of course
08:35:43 <andythenorth> so anyway
08:35:47 <andythenorth> ships with 2 holds?
08:35:51 <andythenorth> or articulated ships?
08:35:58 <jonty-comp> and each depot could have a stockpile of items that determines how much servicing a train there reduces the breakdown %!
08:36:00 <andythenorth> 2 holds => interesting hax
08:36:10 <andythenorth> articulated ships => have to avoid doing Bad Things
08:39:01 <Pikka> either way andy
08:39:05 <Pikka> come up with a spec
08:39:07 <Pikka> post it somewhere
08:39:24 <Pikka> ask someone who might be able to patch it to patch it
08:39:37 <Pikka> do not go anywhere near the forums with it unless you want idiots to talk in circles around it forevermore
08:39:58 <andythenorth> do not pass go
08:40:03 <andythenorth> do not collect £200?
08:40:09 <Supercheese> $200*
08:40:17 <Pikka> yes :)
08:40:25 <andythenorth> Community Chest: someone has patched the game
08:40:54 <Pikka> so, american boxcars
08:41:01 <Pikka> brown, other brown, red, and CC? :)
08:41:07 <Supercheese> Roll two dice: If you roll 12 the patch is accepted to trunk, otherwise no patch for you
08:41:10 <andythenorth> definitely CC
08:41:44 <Pikka> some of the brown ones will have CC markings or something?
08:44:00 <andythenorth> you doing 2CC?
08:44:30 <Pikka> sometimes
08:44:42 <Pikka> like I said, the white bits on those coaches are 2cc
08:46:58 <andythenorth> 2CC boxcar?
08:47:59 <andythenorth> I liked the US Set. With enough patience (graphics are random on build), a matched set of BN green engines and boxcars could be built
08:48:02 <planetmaker> 09:39 Pikka: do not go anywhere near the forums with it unless you want idiots to talk in circles around it forevermore <-- Discussing specs in the forum definitely is not bad. You just need to filter the clutter
08:48:45 <planetmaker> but you need to do that anyway
08:49:06 <Pikka> yeah
08:49:13 <Pikka> but the problem is you need everyone else to filter the clutter too
08:49:29 <Pikka> the actual conversation gets lost otherwise :)
08:50:04 <planetmaker> without making it known you'll have no conversation
08:50:11 <Eddi|zuHause> ... i don't know what you're talking about :p
08:51:12 <planetmaker> It worked well so far to make a wiki page with the specs and discuss it in the forums
08:51:13 <Pikka> if there's no action, the conversation is at best pointless :)
08:51:27 <planetmaker> that of course ;-)
08:51:45 <Pikka> :)
08:51:50 <planetmaker> though not necessarily. It just depends on the time horizon
08:51:56 <Pikka> yep
08:52:19 <andythenorth> also, ships with multiple holds are just massive hax. So maybe it's better not to
08:52:35 <andythenorth> "yes but it's realistic"
08:52:42 <Supercheese> autorefit already is sufficiently haxing
08:52:43 <Pikka> well, it's only massive hax until you work out the proper way to do it, andy :P
08:53:08 <andythenorth> gameplay hax
08:53:28 <Supercheese> hex
08:55:33 <andythenorth> you could just buy one giant ship for any route
08:56:06 <Supercheese> you can already just buy num_cargoes ships for any route
08:56:28 <Supercheese> would only consolidate that down to one
08:56:37 <Supercheese> make gameplay simpler perhaps
08:57:38 * Supercheese should sleep
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08:57:45 * andythenorth work
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09:05:48 <peter1138> use an rgb recolour to have just the shade of brown you want
09:11:03 <jonty-comp> or just draw in 32bpp in the first place
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09:38:52 <peter1138> could do
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09:53:28 <Pikka> "one giant ship for any route" is realistic or something :)
09:54:28 <Eddi|zuHause> you'd ideally want just enough ships that always one is loading
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10:34:05 <peter1138> clearly water needs depth
10:34:20 <peter1138> so you can send your megaliner up that barge canal
10:34:28 <peter1138> er
10:34:30 <peter1138> narrow-boat canal
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10:35:54 <joey8> hi all, i am installing openttd123 and have extracted it to my home directory. i have changes the path to include the games/openttd directory but i am getting "openttd: not found" in a little white message box. can any one help please?
10:39:41 <Pikka> what OS, joey8?
10:39:52 <joey8> ubuntu - latest
10:40:54 <Eddi|zuHause> joey8: have you tried opening it from a console window?
10:41:17 <joey8> yes - that is what i am doing... running the openttd-wrapper program
10:41:23 <joey8> is that right?
10:41:40 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know any openttd-wrapper program
10:41:47 <joey8> oh
10:42:06 <peter1138> i think there was some crazy wrapper some distribution added
10:45:43 <blathijs> \o
10:46:17 <Eddi|zuHause> say "crazy" and random people appear :)
10:47:00 <blathijs> It's a wrapper intended to display an error message when no graphics set is found (as opposed to silently quitting, which is weird when users click the "OpenTTD" menu item and nothing happens)
10:47:27 <blathijs> I guess we can remove it again in the most recent versions which actually ask if you want to download OpenGFX now
10:49:00 <blathijs> joey8: You should be able to just run /usr/games/openttd normally, the /usr/share/games/openttd/openttd-wrapper script is only intended to be called from the applications menu
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10:51:04 <blathijs> joey8: Hmm, wait, you're saying that openttd-wrapper doesn't find openttd. So either /usr/games/openttd doesn't exist on your system (which would be weird) or you messed up something in the path to remove /usr/games from it
10:51:17 <blathijs> joey8: What does this openttd123 thing do?
10:51:38 <blathijs> Googling it only gives me stuff about OpenTTD 1.2.3
10:52:08 <blathijs> Oh wait, that's exactly what you meant, I guess
10:52:47 <blathijs> joey8: You should change the path to include the "games" directory, not the games/openttd filename
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11:42:49 <Pikka> yes but
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11:45:47 <peter1138> pikka no, don't do it pikka, no
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12:06:55 <andythenorth> I dunno
12:07:10 <andythenorth> should I?
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12:37:41 <andythenorth> yay
12:37:43 <andythenorth> inflation
12:37:45 <andythenorth> let's remove it
12:38:19 <planetmaker> :D
12:41:32 <andythenorth> so let's try this
12:41:39 <andythenorth> current inflation means costs outstrip income?
12:41:45 <andythenorth> and the 'fix' is to keep them the same?
12:42:13 <andythenorth> and the point of this for gameplay is...?
12:43:33 <V453000> unicorns
12:43:38 <V453000> also hello :)
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12:52:55 <joey8> does anybody know why i should be getting a small white message box with "openttd not found" when i click on the openttd-wrapper program. trying to do an install on ubuntu 12.04. thank you
12:53:21 <Pinkbeast> Please, say what set of instructions you were attempting to follow?
12:53:44 <joey8> i am making my own up pinkbeast because i cant find any to follow, sorry.
12:54:24 <joey8> i would willingly follow any instruction set if one was offered to me.
12:54:51 <joey8> i have just downloaded the deb file from the openttd website
12:54:51 <Pinkbeast> OK, then, perhaps you could explain what steps have got you to this point.
12:54:56 <joey8> ok
12:54:59 <joey8> i have just downloaded the deb file from the openttd website
12:55:03 <Pinkbeast> ... Ah, OK. Then you did what?
12:55:32 <joey8> ok and then i extracted to my home directory so now i have a deb and a usr directory
12:56:15 <joey8> if i click on the openttd-wrapper program i get the afore-mentioned error message
12:56:23 <Pinkbeast> Please say what you actually did. What command did you run to "extract to my home directory"?
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12:56:33 <joey8> ok 1 min please
12:57:01 <Pinkbeast> It sounds to me like you have just unpacked the package, not installed it.
12:57:30 <joey8> ah ha ..... "install it"? mmm sorry i was unaware i had to do that
12:57:47 <joey8> is there an instruction set i am to follow please pinkbeast
12:57:57 <Pinkbeast> Well, any Debian package needs to be installed.
12:58:05 <joey8> ok
12:58:11 <Pinkbeast> You in general would install one with "sudo dpkg -i foo.deb"
12:58:19 <joey8> ah ok
12:58:50 <joey8> i have looked on the openttd website for instructions. could you help by pointing me in the right direction please thank you
12:59:16 <Pinkbeast> Errr I suggest you install the package as above
12:59:27 <joey8> what ... with dpkg?
12:59:39 <Pinkbeast> Yes, as all Debian packages are installed.
12:59:47 <joey8> ok will try. thanx for your help
12:59:52 * joey8 waves
13:00:04 <joey8> ヅ
13:00:40 <Pinkbeast> You might then find it complains about the lack of some other packages which you might install with "apt-get install foo"
13:00:50 <joey8> ah ha ok
13:01:19 <joey8> thanx - i am going know to try it. (in another room) thank you bye
13:01:32 <Pinkbeast> OK, but you could ssh in to the machine in question and run dpkg
13:01:53 <joey8> its ok - dont need to - i will walk ヅ
13:13:41 <jonty-comp> what is this walking you speak of
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13:16:15 <andythenorth>
13:17:55 <peter1138> take anything touched by gnome with a pinch of salt
13:18:26 <goodger> I like how michael meeks can't spell "its"
13:20:27 <Pinkbeast> It's a weird mix of sensible stuff like making autobuilds work as well as possible and vague noises about the magic of free software
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13:31:20 <joey8> pinkbeast - just a quick thank you. 1.2.3 all running great - thanx for your care and help
13:31:23 <joey8> ヅ
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14:29:38 <Belugas> hello
14:30:18 <peter1138> hi sir
14:30:49 <Belugas> godd day to you peter1138 :)
14:30:55 <Pikka> hallo Belugas and peeter
14:32:41 <Belugas> pister mikka!
14:32:44 <Belugas> hem...
14:32:45 <Belugas> no
14:32:50 <Belugas> misper tikka
14:32:53 <Belugas> grrr..
14:32:57 <Belugas> shake shake shake
14:33:03 <Belugas> mister Pikka!
14:33:09 <Belugas> sluuuurp
14:33:18 <Belugas> cofffeee time!
14:33:18 <andythenorth> :)
14:33:26 * andythenorth is drinking Nescafe instant
14:33:28 <andythenorth> bleargh
14:33:59 <Pikka> andythenorth, better than nothing
14:34:08 * Pikka is out of scotch :[
14:34:24 <Pikka> not /much/ better than nothing, admittedly
14:34:28 <andythenorth> forums are boringly quiet
14:34:31 <andythenorth> so is simuscape
14:34:36 <andythenorth> should I join the german forum?
14:34:45 <andythenorth> my german is nichts so gut
14:34:50 <andythenorth> ist*
14:34:54 <Pikka> the german forum is at least refreshingly to the point
14:34:57 <Pikka> as you might expect
14:34:58 <andythenorth> meine deutsch
14:35:03 <andythenorth> ah germans
14:35:16 <Pikka> Simuscape's "Hall of Fame" post was greeted with "what is this shit" :)
14:35:40 <andythenorth> Pikka: how good is your german then?
14:36:08 <Pikka> poor to quite poor, I did it for a few years in high school
14:36:57 <peter1138>
14:37:00 <peter1138> yeah
14:37:31 <jonty-comp> hahaha
14:42:30 <Pikka> seems plausible
14:43:08 <Pikka> sounds like the Russian Bob Katter, does he wear a big hat?
14:44:21 <andythenorth> asteroids were considered as a serious piece of WMD
14:44:45 <andythenorth> if you can target one precisely, it' s a really simple continent killer
14:44:54 * andythenorth read the wrong books at age 13
14:45:05 <andythenorth> I might go home and make a livestock ship :P
14:45:15 <Pikka> probably easier just to nuke the continent directly
14:45:17 <Pikka> good idea :)
14:54:52 <planetmaker> if a fish ship has the fish tow the ship instead of carry it... would it have reduced running costs?
14:56:30 <peter1138> no because it costs more to train the fish
14:56:39 <peter1138> which you then transmute into food
14:57:19 <andythenorth> planetmaker: what if the fish carry this, and you put your ship on it?
14:57:39 <peter1138> that's not a ship
14:57:41 <peter1138> that's a sawn
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14:58:13 <peter1138> er
14:58:14 <peter1138> swan
14:58:19 <peter1138> sawn off swan?
14:59:11 <jonty-comp> how do you get from one end to the other without getting wet feet?
14:59:57 <andythenorth> use a boat
15:00:02 <andythenorth> those ships should be in FISH
15:00:15 <andythenorth> on the right: the big trawler. In the middle, a nice ferry
15:00:23 <andythenorth> on the left....some dredger thing. That's HEQS :P
15:00:47 <planetmaker> interesting ship, andy
15:01:00 <peter1138> jonty-comp, probably a walkway underneath the bed
15:03:56 <andythenorth> biab
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15:06:06 <peter1138> back in a boat?
15:06:12 <peter1138> boat in a bath?
15:08:09 <goodger> brain in a box
15:08:38 <peter1138> band in a box
15:09:10 <jonty-comp> box in a box
15:14:55 <peter1138>
15:15:27 <peter1138> brony on a bench?
15:15:27 <goodger> what in satan's glorious name
15:15:43 <jonty-comp> oh my
15:16:29 <peter1138>
15:16:31 <peter1138> brony in a bedroom
15:17:00 <jonty-comp> nice TV
15:17:09 <Pikka> your mother's a brony, peter1138
15:17:22 <peter1138> i don't think that's possible
15:17:30 <Pikka> anything's possible
15:18:14 <Pikka> especially with your mother
15:19:26 <Pikka> also, Biggles in a Blenheim
15:19:56 <goodger> "bronies imply affirmation of blasphemy"
15:20:53 <Pinkbeast> Do we really? Egads.
15:21:24 <Pikka> and bedtime in a brisbane
15:21:26 <Pikka> goodnight
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15:22:04 <goodger> bronies inculcate arrested belief [in a god]
15:22:14 <peter1138> oh god we got one
15:22:21 <goodger> :D
15:22:26 <Pinkbeast> goodger: you who what now?
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15:42:25 <Bad_Brett> hello there
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16:13:14 <andythenorth> we should fix inflation by introducing a complete economic cycle
16:13:19 <andythenorth> and have multiple currencies
16:13:32 <andythenorth> with all the associated macro-economic machinery
16:13:43 <Pinkbeast> So I can play Warren Buffett and never touch a vehicle?
16:13:56 <andythenorth> no
16:14:00 <andythenorth> you still have to play trains
16:14:07 <Pinkbeast> It'd be a neat parallel to your "the game is not all about trains, you know" - "the game is not all about transport". :-)
16:14:11 <andythenorth> but now "they cost more, so it's more fun"
16:14:34 <Pinkbeast> If I was Warren Buffett I'd have my own trainset
16:14:39 <andythenorth> true
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16:24:40 <andythenorth> so 1 bandit.grf, or 1 per theme?
16:24:47 <andythenorth> herm, no pikka :P
16:25:11 <planetmaker> g'evening
16:25:30 <andythenorth> assume there's a set of 10 US trucks, a set of 10 Australian trucks etc
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16:25:32 <andythenorth> or so
16:26:14 <andythenorth> I am figuring one grf
16:26:30 <andythenorth> makes setting up a game easier, and one place to set parameters, not n
16:26:40 <andythenorth> assuming parameters are needed :P
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16:31:44 <RavingManiac> Sometimes, I think that openttd is set in some dystopian alternate history
16:32:02 <RavingManiac> Where the world is ruled by transportation barons
16:32:37 <RavingManiac> It is they who determine which cities grow and die, where the goods go
16:32:38 <RavingManiac> etc
16:33:14 <goodger> and where your home can be demolished before they realise they needed to demolish the one next door
16:34:10 <RavingManiac> and when the city authorities get their shit together and make a stand against the corporation levelling the town?
16:34:14 <RavingManiac> Bribe money!
16:34:33 <RavingManiac> and five more families are homeless
16:34:41 <planetmaker> plant trees! cheaper and more effective ;-)
16:34:56 <goodger> nah, those five families are simply murdered in their homes prior to demolition
16:35:39 <planetmaker> "oh, I destroyed your house? C'mon, look what nice trees I planted instead!" "oh, ok. Then please don't mind. Continue at will"
16:38:04 <MNIM> goodger: I always thought they were killed in the explosion
16:38:19 <Belugas> don't you love this game or not! I still do :D
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17:06:56 <Terkhen> hello
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17:16:05 <andythenorth> hi Terkhen
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17:23:57 <andythenorth> Terkhen: fancy doing the FIRS spanish update? o_O
17:24:06 <andythenorth> I should release soon :)
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17:42:42 <Snail> hey andy
17:42:51 <Snail> I'm updating FIRS' translation now...
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17:44:47 <Snail> what are exactly "recyclables"? stuff to be recycled, or stuff already recycled?
17:45:09 <Snail> coz they're produced by the "recycling depot" and accepted by the "recycling plant"...
17:45:24 <Pinkbeast> Stuff to be recycled I believe.
17:45:51 <Terkhen> he's gone :P
17:46:05 <Terkhen> yes, it is stuff to be recycled
17:51:29 <Snail> whoops, I asked him right after he left :)
17:51:40 <Snail> thanks guys
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18:19:55 <Snail> anyone knows the difference between "basic farm" and "mixed farm" in FIRS?
18:20:06 <Snail> I'm looking here -->
18:20:15 <Snail> but it looks like there's no info...
18:20:16 <Snail> \
18:21:11 <frosch123> mixed farm produces both livestock and grain
18:21:33 <frosch123> i guess basic farm appears only in economies with a single type of farm
18:22:06 <Snail> ok
18:22:43 <frosch123> the bloated economy iirc has 3 farms: grain, livestock, grain+livestock
18:22:53 <frosch123> the normal economies may have only one type
18:23:03 <jonty-comp>
18:23:08 <jonty-comp> that makes perfect sense
18:23:53 <frosch123> tell him abuot the cheat menu
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18:36:58 <terjesc> Very descriptive topic title.
18:37:21 <frosch123> yeah, sadly it is limited in length
18:38:22 <terjesc> I was talking about the forum post.
18:38:44 <terjesc> "Does anyone know how to answer?"
18:38:55 <terjesc> (=
18:40:44 <Rubidium> yes
18:40:53 <Rubidium> Q.E.D.
18:41:42 <planetmaker> :D was tempted to reply that. Would qualify as "unhelpful", though
18:42:17 <terjesc> Well, to write Q.E.D. you kind of have to demonstrate that you know how to answer first.
18:42:23 <terjesc> q:
18:42:57 <Rubidium> terjesc: didn't I demonstrate that by answering his question with yes?
18:43:09 <terjesc> Oh, sorry. Of course.
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18:44:01 <__ln__> h w1
18:44:23 <Wolf01> h __
18:44:24 <planetmaker> terjesc, the answer is "use cheat menu"
18:44:37 <Wolf01> hello :D
18:44:41 <planetmaker> and get yourself as much money as you want
18:44:50 <terjesc> planetmaker: I know. (=
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18:51:36 <peter1138>
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18:51:59 <jonty-comp> i wondered how long it would take someone to do that
18:52:33 <jonty-comp> now i need to figure out running wine in qemu so that i can get x86 apps on my tablet
18:55:32 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25022 /trunk/src/lang (11 files) (2013-02-18 18:55:14 UTC)
18:55:33 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:55:34 <DorpsGek> belarusian - 10 changes by KorneySan
18:55:35 <DorpsGek> croatian - 9 changes by VoyagerOne
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18:55:36 <DorpsGek> dutch - 9 changes by habell
18:55:37 <DorpsGek> hungarian - 6 changes by oklmernok
18:55:38 <DorpsGek> italian - 5 changes by lorenzodv
18:55:39 <DorpsGek> korean - 17 changes by telk5093
18:55:40 <DorpsGek> polish - 5 changes by wojteks86
18:55:41 <DorpsGek> brazilian_portuguese - 10 changes by Tucalipe
18:55:42 <DorpsGek> russian - 9 changes by Lone_Wolf
18:55:43 <DorpsGek> swedish - 50 changes by Zuu
18:55:44 <DorpsGek> vietnamese - 9 changes by nglekhoi
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19:09:44 <andythenorth> Terkhen: sorry for forgetting translation :(
19:09:58 <andythenorth> I assumed you'd commit:)
19:12:31 <andythenorth> I'll do it now
19:15:49 <Terkhen> I mentioned back then that I had no development environment :P
19:15:53 <Terkhen> no problem :)
19:15:58 <Terkhen> I was able to find the paste :P
19:17:10 <andythenorth> oops :)
19:17:33 <andythenorth> sometimes in the middle of something I have to go and do real life :P
19:17:35 <andythenorth> then I forget
19:17:39 <andythenorth> real life first :P
19:18:09 <Terkhen> :)
19:18:54 <Snail> hey andy
19:19:01 <Snail> I had a question for you about FIRS 0.9.2
19:19:11 <andythenorth> ?
19:19:30 <Snail> in my set, I have a vehicle that can carry mail by default and can be refitted to passengers
19:19:45 <Snail> when I refit to passengers, I change the capacity through CB36
19:20:26 <Snail> with FIRS 0.7 (as well as with all the other industry sets including default) I used to set capacity to X passengers through CB36, and I got X*2 as real capacity in-game
19:20:45 <Snail> however, now with FIRS 0.9.2, the same code gives me X/2 passengers in-game
19:20:56 <Snail> perhaps there have been changes in the cargo definitions?
19:21:21 <andythenorth> yes
19:21:27 <andythenorth> might be a bug, might be correct behaviour
19:21:30 <andythenorth> I'll look
19:21:41 <andythenorth> mail / pax in FIRS are supposed to be same as default game
19:21:47 <andythenorth> what does default do? :)
19:21:55 <MinchinWeb> In a NewGRF set, how do you change the sort order of vehicles?
19:23:03 <andythenorth> there's a sort order property
19:23:15 <Snail> default doubles the real in-game capacity if I take a vehicle whose default cargo is mail and I refit it to pax
19:23:16 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r25023 trunk/src/network/network_content_gui.cpp (2013-02-18 19:23:09 UTC)
19:23:17 <DorpsGek> -Change: Regroup buttons in content download GUI to put item-specifc stuff next to each other.
19:23:24 <Snail> while FIRS 0.9.2 halves it...
19:23:49 <Snail> the original bug report is here -->
19:25:21 <andythenorth> I have set multiplier to 2
19:25:25 <andythenorth> maybe it should be 0.5
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19:26:01 <andythenorth>
19:26:02 <Snail> did you change it from FIRS 0.7?
19:26:10 <andythenorth> probably
19:26:13 <Snail> coz it used to work well with that one
19:26:14 <andythenorth> I'd have to diff to check
19:26:22 <andythenorth> a lot has changed since then :P
19:26:26 <Snail> :p
19:26:39 <andythenorth> it's also a new property in openttd 1.2
19:26:47 <andythenorth> might not have been set in FIRS 0.7 at all
19:26:56 <Snail> but at least from this feature's perspective, FIRS 0.7 behaved like all the other cargo sets while FIRS 0.9.2 doesn't
19:27:16 <andythenorth> nml docs say mail should be 2
19:27:27 <andythenorth> which it is
19:27:45 <andythenorth> but pax is 1, should be 4
19:27:53 <andythenorth> FIRS bug :)
19:28:12 <andythenorth> fixing
19:28:26 <Snail> thanks :)
19:28:39 <Snail> oh I also updated the Italian translation ;)
19:29:55 <andythenorth> I committed it :)
19:30:05 <andythenorth> hmm
19:30:30 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r25024 /trunk/src (5 files in 5 dirs) (2013-02-18 19:30:24 UTC)
19:30:31 <DorpsGek> -Feature: Searching of (missing) content via GrfCrawler.
19:30:34 <andythenorth> :)
19:31:44 <andythenorth> lots of recent commits :)
19:32:00 <andythenorth> so we're having some of cdist then?
19:32:46 <Snail> cargo dist in trunk?
19:33:10 <andythenorth> there are commits relating to some cdist things
19:33:17 <andythenorth>
19:33:28 <frosch123> it's not the whole story
19:33:36 <andythenorth> I wouldn't make assumptions until someone tells you
19:34:00 <andythenorth> might just be general improvements that happen to have come from fonso
19:35:22 <andythenorth> Snail: want to test FIRS fix?
19:35:31 <andythenorth> if it works, I'll be releasing soon
19:36:16 <andythenorth> frosch123: that's pretty nice for GRFCrawler
19:36:36 <Snail> andy: ok, downloading now
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19:37:16 <andythenorth> I wonder if that's going to prompt some new grfcrawler entries
19:37:24 <andythenorth> I'm tempted, even though it's irrational
19:40:38 <andythenorth> hmm
19:40:42 <andythenorth> old GRFCrawler is old
19:41:23 <Snail> andythenorth: tested and works :)
19:41:30 <Snail> thanks dude
19:41:59 <Snail> makes me relieved I don't have to go change my code :p
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19:42:25 <andythenorth> np
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19:42:29 <andythenorth> my bug
19:42:31 <andythenorth> thanks for finding it
19:43:07 <Snail> :)
19:43:18 <andythenorth> grfcrawler updated :P
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19:43:24 <andythenorth> can I be bothered to add my other grfs?
19:43:25 <andythenorth> erm
19:43:26 <andythenorth> nope
19:43:46 <andythenorth> so should I set capacity multiplier for any other FIRS cargos?
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19:44:23 <Snail> well, as for me, the problem only occurred with passengers
19:44:24 <Snail> al
19:44:25 <Snail> l the oth
19:44:26 <Snail> er
19:44:45 <Snail> all the other cargoes behave nicely (i.e. same way as for the other industry sets)
19:45:46 <andythenorth> hmm
19:46:01 <andythenorth> pikka chops doesn't bother using capacity multiplier on planes / trains
19:46:04 <andythenorth> HEQS does it
19:46:15 <andythenorth> FISH doesn't
19:47:12 <andythenorth> zeph does it the wrong way round in eGRVTS
19:47:31 <andythenorth> 15t of stuff, or 30 crates of goods
19:47:50 <andythenorth> hmm, no, that's the correct way :P
19:47:57 <andythenorth> how confusing
19:50:51 <Snail> you mean from the vehicle set's point of view?
19:51:50 <andythenorth> or the player's
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19:51:54 <andythenorth> or the newgrf author's
19:52:09 <andythenorth> I suspect it's just a bad feature :)
19:52:11 <tracerpt> hello
19:52:32 <Snail> I think this is way overcomplicated :p
19:52:42 <andythenorth> yes
19:54:20 <planetmaker> hi
19:56:28 <Snail> have to go now
19:56:31 <Snail> cya later
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20:04:33 <MinchinWeb> I'm trying to figure out purchase list sorting... I found this -> <- but it doesn't seem to work the way I expected
20:04:50 <MinchinWeb> are the ID's the ones you assign in your NML?
20:05:39 <frosch123> it's the third parameter of the "item" thingie or so
20:05:45 <frosch123> hmm, or the second?
20:06:21 <MinchinWeb> the name, or the number?
20:06:36 <frosch123> both work i guess, better use the name :)
20:08:19 <MinchinWeb> guess I'll try names and see if it works better :)
20:11:09 <andythenorth> want some source?
20:11:12 <andythenorth> I can find some :P
20:11:41 <andythenorth> MinchinWeb: nfo or nml?
20:12:10 <andythenorth>
20:12:19 <andythenorth> I use explicit numeric IDs
20:12:22 <MinchinWeb> NML
20:12:27 <andythenorth> I don't trust all this magical stuff
20:12:37 <andythenorth> lol
20:13:00 <andythenorth> the IDs in that list happen to be in exact correct order :P
20:13:02 <tracerpt> anyone using the 32bpp thingie?
20:13:05 <andythenorth> that's just a side-effect of how I remade the set
20:13:45 <MinchinWeb> well, my code looks about the same, but it's not showing up the way I want
20:14:55 <peter1138> 32bpp thingie?
20:16:07 <tracerpt> 32bpp graphics
20:17:21 <tracerpt> I've been playing ttd and openttd for years but just now i've decided to add some content
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20:18:56 <tracerpt> keep getting lost in the wiki
20:19:53 <frosch123> just install ottd 1.2.x or newer, open the content download in game, get zbase, and activate it in game options
20:21:08 <tracerpt> cheers
20:21:21 <tracerpt> off to ruin my game now brb xD
20:21:42 <tracerpt> added some train sets and it looks like a warzone
20:22:15 <peter1138> and then switch back to ttd/opengfx when you can't stand the look
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20:23:45 <tracerpt> isn't it supposed to be better?
20:23:53 <MinchinWeb> well, my sorting seems to be working now :) thanks
20:24:29 <frosch123> tracerpt: there is no better in subjective decisions
20:25:05 <frosch123> it is different for sure though
20:25:17 <tracerpt> yeah
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20:31:13 <andythenorth> so
20:31:36 <andythenorth> crates of goods are 'bigger' in default vehicles
20:31:42 <andythenorth> but 'smaller' in eGRVTS and HEQS
20:31:45 <andythenorth> which is odd
20:31:56 <andythenorth> I guess 'crates' are not standard dimensions :P
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20:33:30 <MinchinWeb> well a crate should have a standard weight, no?
20:33:42 <andythenorth> the weight is same yes
20:33:54 <andythenorth> 16 crates = 8t
20:36:49 <MinchinWeb> well then dimensions can't very too too much (you would think)
20:36:59 <andythenorth> but by volume, a truck from default game carries 25t of coal, or similar truck carries 8t goods (16 crates)
20:37:30 <andythenorth> whilst a HEQS truck carries 2t coal, or 4 crates of goods
20:37:48 <andythenorth> and an eGRVTS 2 truck carries 15t coal or 30 crates goods
20:37:50 <MinchinWeb> I think HEQS has it right then
20:38:13 <andythenorth> more right than the actual game? :P
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20:43:36 <jonty-comp> well the original game is hardly a bastion of realism
20:43:50 <andythenorth> realism I'm not bothered :)
20:43:58 <andythenorth> more consistency
20:44:09 <andythenorth> although consistency is the hobgoblin of tiny minds &c &c
20:47:51 <tracerpt> cant find zbase on the downloader ò.Ó
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20:56:40 <frosch123> hmm, ok, apparently it needs 1.3 beta
20:56:44 <MinchinWeb> andythenorth: did you ever get to templating on that Python/NML tutorial you were writing?
20:56:59 <andythenorth> basic python templating yes
20:57:04 <andythenorth> it's in newgrf dev forum
20:57:15 <andythenorth> don't think I got as far as chameleon templating
20:57:15 <Wolf01> 'night all
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20:58:32 <tracerpt> oh
20:58:32 <andythenorth> MinchinWeb:
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20:58:46 <tracerpt> need to update then
20:58:56 <tracerpt> ty frosch
20:59:15 <frosch123> i actually don't know why it requires 1.3 :p
20:59:34 <peter1138> mask shading?
21:00:04 <frosch123> i would think everything was backported to 1.2.3
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21:09:46 <tracerpt> everything i've read says 1.2.0 and above
21:11:59 <Rubidium> there are some issues that makes it work less than satisfactory with < 1.2.3
21:12:55 <tracerpt> guessing that's why it was made for 1.3 now
21:12:58 <frosch123> yeah, but it's not available for 1.2.3 either
21:13:11 <frosch123> i think the bananas version requirements are wrong
21:13:26 <frosch123> planetmaker: might know :)
21:13:30 <Rubidium> frosch123: odd, my 1.2.3 shows it
21:14:04 <tracerpt> I'll update to the latest version just in case
21:14:47 <frosch123> well, i tried with 1.2 branch, i hoped that would be newer
21:15:15 <Rubidium> frosch123: that doesn't have the 'release' bit nor the .3 bit
21:15:53 <frosch123> yeah, indeed, 1.2.3 tag shows zbase
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21:20:40 <tracerpt> upgrading now :D
21:21:09 <planetmaker> hm...
21:21:31 <planetmaker> which newgrf?
21:21:41 <frosch123> zbase
21:21:45 <frosch123> but is is fine
21:21:48 <frosch123> it is available in 1.2.3
21:22:01 <frosch123> just not in 1.2-branch as i thought it would
21:22:20 <planetmaker> hm, I actually do not know why its availability is set to 1.3. It should work with 1.2.3 or so
21:22:29 <tracerpt> yeah
21:22:36 <tracerpt> upgraded to 1.2.3
21:22:39 <tracerpt> showing zbase now
21:22:44 <planetmaker> but not 1.2.2 or earlier. Some bug iirc which has issues with container format ... or something
21:23:03 <planetmaker> my memory is fuzzy, but there was a reason :-)
21:23:12 <Rubidium> planetmaker: colours
21:23:15 <frosch123> we changed the recolouring
21:23:19 <Rubidium> planetmaker: and 1.2.3 shows zbase
21:23:25 <planetmaker> :-) ^
21:24:06 <tracerpt> so i just install zbase and it will run with the default trainsets or do i need to download new ones?
21:24:42 <planetmaker> basesets just change all default sprites. so yes, also the default trainset will of course work. And look different
21:24:57 <tracerpt> allright then
21:24:58 <planetmaker> (but only look different, not work different)
21:25:06 <tracerpt> oki
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21:26:49 <tracerpt> I like the wagons measuring 0.5, gonna browse the forums later on to try and see if there's a way to add only the engines
21:27:16 <tracerpt> thanks for the help :) will be back later
21:28:51 <frosch123> night
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21:48:28 <andythenorth> can I be arsed to dibble around with cargo aging?
21:48:34 <andythenorth> for refrigeration and such?
21:48:36 <andythenorth> nah
21:53:49 <jonty-comp> surely the value depreciation over time takes care of that
21:56:43 <andythenorth> the cargo aging affects the calculation
21:56:51 <andythenorth> allowing a bit more variation between vehicle types
21:57:02 <andythenorth> but then I have to put more text in buy menu, blearch
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22:11:57 <Supercheese> Ooooh, r25024 GRFcrawler search
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22:20:17 <andythenorth> FISH r999 :D
22:20:21 <andythenorth> bedtime
22:20:29 <andythenorth> last time it will ever be all 9s I reckon
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22:24:18 <Eddi|zuHause> until it suddenly is 9999 :)
22:24:55 <andythenorth> that will be the day :)
22:24:57 <andythenorth> bedtime
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22:34:07 <Terkhen> good night
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23:31:23 <MinchinWeb_> when I send trains to depot, it always seems to want to send the train to the depot behind it, and almost never the depot in front of it. Do i just need to adjust some pathfinder penalties?
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