IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-02-16
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00:01:28 <oskari892> Eddi: So do you have shunting system in planning or... ? ^
00:02:10 <oskari892> Regarding that GUI discussion up there :)
00:04:03 <Eddi|zuHause> oskari892: i have plans for lots of things, but people keep telling me "that's too complicated, nobody will/can code that"
00:04:53 <oskari892> Those people have wrong attitude
00:05:02 <Eddi|zuHause> that may also be related to me thinking 3 steps further ahead than they do, and then i have problems explaining my thoughts to them :p
00:07:24 <oskari892> Don't know if that is proper
00:07:45 <Eddi|zuHause> but afair he did not publish a patch
00:09:48 <oskari892> It's sad that there's people who vanish from forums totally for years
00:11:30 <oskari892> Such as one who did code Finnish Trainset, not releasing a NewGrf, just providing screenshots, but disappeared and now there's a year gone without single post from him...
00:12:05 <oskari892> I wonder where he had gone? :P
00:14:32 <oskari892> The same person which did Swedish Houses
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00:51:46 <Superuser> so I've been thinking
00:51:50 <Superuser> since I'm so amazing at what I do
00:52:10 <Superuser> I think I should get a mention for my efforts in the next blog post
00:52:25 <Superuser> for the 1.31 release that is
00:52:45 <Superuser> what do you think? I have literally changed about 2000 strings, I basically translated the whole thing by myself
00:52:56 <Superuser> + I have corrected several of the original English strings
01:10:46 <Eddi|zuHause> what exactly is it that you do again?
01:19:30 <Superuser> translated to Greek
01:19:34 <Superuser> but it was an intense effort
01:19:52 <Superuser> plus, I helped improve all other translations by improving the English strings
01:20:08 <Superuser> I actually have a few more changes to English strings I want to discuss, but I'm playing atm :)
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05:40:36 <Supercheese> 3-day weekend, time for lots and lots of OTTD :D
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06:14:24 <Supercheese> I've tried to wrangle running sounds before
06:14:37 <Supercheese> isn't the easiest thing to do
06:25:34 <andythenorth> ok minds, ship speed:
06:26:07 <andythenorth> so RL ferries and fishing boats and crap do about 11 knots (13mph)
06:26:19 <andythenorth> which I cheat up to about 16mph
06:26:48 <andythenorth> but I don't cheat up the faster ships
06:27:07 <andythenorth> so RL hovercraft can cruise at 46mph, and so does the FISH one
06:27:22 <andythenorth> shall I just cheat them all up same amount?
06:27:36 <Supercheese> just have the hovercraft go faster than 46 mph when empty
06:27:42 <Supercheese> like some other FISH ships
06:28:02 <Supercheese> Keep RL-speeds the loaded-speeds-ish
06:28:03 <andythenorth> oh it probably does that already anyway
06:28:12 <Supercheese> and bump them up higher than RL when empty
06:28:18 <Supercheese> oh, already does that?
06:28:25 <andythenorth> yeah, they do that automagically I think
06:28:28 <andythenorth> owing to some code I wrote
06:28:47 <andythenorth> pikkacrafts would be silly
06:29:16 <andythenorth> Pikka: there is only one, and it's only a very little one. Just a morsel.
06:29:22 <andythenorth> can't you overlook it? :(
06:29:32 <Pikka> I guess it is not so bad
06:29:46 <Supercheese> other fast ships are catamarans or hydrofoils
06:29:54 <Supercheese> well, other than the silly Bakewell 300
06:30:24 <andythenorth> Pikka: on MP servers, it's certainly nice to see everyone go fishing with a hovercraft
06:30:46 <Supercheese> go fishing with seaplanes
06:31:09 <Supercheese> our US Zeppelins had nasty habits of going fishing
06:31:18 <andythenorth> should we just stop?
06:31:30 <andythenorth> and join V453000 with the NUTS thing?
06:31:34 <Supercheese> poor Admiral Moffet didn't survive the fishing trip :(
06:35:30 <Pikka> actually, you can go fishing with a zellepin, can't you?
06:35:41 <Pikka> with the skylift at least
06:38:02 <andythenorth> could go fishing with that
06:38:06 * andythenorth is on a ship broker site
06:38:51 <Pikka> cheap at half the price
06:40:43 <andythenorth> for less than $1m we can get 268' cargo ship
06:41:04 <andythenorth> we could spend the earnings from newgrf on that?
06:42:23 <andythenorth> nice to find the photo later
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06:57:36 <Pikka> a 31-year-old 268' cargo ship :)
07:00:34 <andythenorth> shall I just multiply all RL speeds by 1.5 then?
07:00:45 <andythenorth> and be done with it?
07:00:59 <Pikka> I still think you should have a parameter
07:01:04 <Pikka> maybe make 1.5 the default
07:01:09 <Pikka> with 1 and 2 as options
07:01:35 <andythenorth> 1 is masochistic :P
07:03:22 <Pikka> apparently it is the "Largest small cruise Cat built in last 10 years"
07:03:36 <Pikka> I guess the next model up is the "smallest large cruise cat"
07:08:48 <Pikka> and then adjust running costs accordingly, if you can be bothered ;)
07:16:27 <andythenorth> how does that action 14 thing work :P
07:25:02 <andythenorth> yeah that will all be fine
07:25:09 <andythenorth> I'll have to just write some nml :P
07:26:08 <peter1138> aw, krinn was update that i moderizzled his post
07:37:49 <peter1138> looked a bit small in the video i saw
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08:39:22 <andythenorth> action 14, how I love thy caching
08:41:30 * Alberth ponders about how to fix the custom_tags file for translating
08:41:45 * andythenorth ponders removing 'speed factor: 0'
08:41:57 <andythenorth> 0 is not a useful multiplier for gameplay purposes :P
08:42:06 <Alberth> not very much indeed :)
08:42:29 <Alberth> rename to 'speed index' :D
08:42:58 <andythenorth> that's actually the right thing to do
08:43:32 <Alberth> what's the purpose of custom_tags in the first place? doesn't it belong in lang/* files?
08:44:14 <planetmaker> Alberth, e.g. you can define {GRF_NAME} My fancy name and then use {GRF_NAME} in strings
08:45:01 <Alberth> yeah, but why not in a lang file?
08:45:18 <planetmaker> universal for all languages?
08:46:07 <Alberth> lang/english.lng:5:STR_GRF_NAME :{TITLE} <-- like so?
08:46:21 <andythenorth> so that's the intended solution to 'not all strings should be translated'? o_O
08:46:24 <planetmaker> as it's treated different from a general string, universal for all files, syntactically like a tag. Like you show, yes
08:46:50 <planetmaker> Alberth, I use it e.g. for version display
08:47:09 <Alberth> I mean why not lang/english.lng:5:STR_GRF_NAME : My fancy name
08:47:27 <planetmaker> and then the GRF_NAME reads like STR_GRF_NAME: {TITLE} {VERSION} (translated title, if any)
08:47:55 <planetmaker> I can programmatically write {VERSION} as function of hg output w/o touching lang file
08:49:17 <Alberth> add one more tag in custom_tags, and you have the problem of modifying that file as well
08:49:30 <planetmaker> how do you get the repo version in a lang file?
08:49:52 <planetmaker> I write custom_tags anew everytime. I only put version, untranslatable name there
08:50:03 <Alberth> (assuming you don't means # $Id$ :)
08:50:03 <planetmaker> exactly. But how get that in the title then?
08:50:18 <planetmaker> I mean my version like r245 or 0.5.2
08:50:31 <Alberth> imho a string literal in the program
08:50:35 <planetmaker> that's nothing a translator can do
08:50:48 <Alberth> r245 needs translating?
08:50:57 <planetmaker> no, of course not
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08:51:36 <Alberth> in that case you've lost me now
08:52:09 <planetmaker> A translator cannot / shall not mess with version strings. That changes much more often than strings
08:52:10 <Alberth> I'd think you should be able to write "this is blah blah blah version xyz" as literal in the program
08:52:22 <planetmaker> so I define that whereever a translator has no say
08:52:34 <Alberth> or in CPP speak "...." ## VERSION
08:52:42 <planetmaker> I write STR_GRF_NAME: Title blah {VERSION}
08:52:57 <planetmaker> not sure I can define mixed fixed strings and translated ones
08:53:03 <Alberth> not as string literal in a *.nml file?
08:53:15 <planetmaker> custom_tags is the literal strings for translations which you ask for
08:53:49 <planetmaker> i.e. if you need a literal string in other strings: then custom_tags is for you
08:54:20 <Alberth> a string literal is for me a double quote character, zero or more other stuff, and a closing double quote character
08:54:55 <andythenorth> speed parameter works for ships
08:55:06 <andythenorth> better put some strings in for it :P
08:56:54 <planetmaker> Alberth, from a translation POV custom_tags is not translatable
08:57:32 <Alberth> but I need its tags, or I'll throw X:{BLA} out the window for unknown tags
08:58:07 <Alberth> but every project has its own tags, and they change overt time :( :(
08:58:53 <planetmaker> yes, that's true... you won't even find that file in any of my repos
08:59:30 <Alberth> luckily, I don't care what's in your repo :)
08:59:41 <planetmaker> well. But what's in the custom_tags?
09:00:33 <planetmaker> the idea behind it was indeed for a string like {VERSION} or whatever the author needs to be easily used in strings
09:01:47 <Alberth> I can see two options:
09:01:47 <Alberth> a) I allow any {XYZ} without bothering to check it, which basically means translators can add any crap, and it will all drop into your repo
09:01:47 <Alberth> b) I only allow tags I know, which means I need a list of them. How you get that list is up to the author of the project, imho
09:03:06 <planetmaker> option (a) sounds very unappealing
09:03:26 <Alberth> it is, imho, for proof, see the mess of WT3
09:03:27 <planetmaker> option (b) needs some interface definition
09:04:10 <Alberth> eg {G ..} indexes are not checked iirc
09:04:22 <planetmaker> oi. not too nice :-)
09:05:23 <Alberth> just look up the fixes made by rb and frsh mostly :)
09:07:28 <Alberth> b) has the huge problem that if you change the list (in particular delete some item), all translations become invalid for every use of that removed tag
09:08:08 <planetmaker> of course. But that's the problem of the dev. If we change a string it also becomes invalid in all translations
09:09:24 <Alberth> good to know the speed of drying paint :)
09:09:25 <joey8> has anyone got time to help a non techie try to install 1.3 over the top of 1.1 on ubuntu please. thank you
09:09:44 <Alberth> don't try to install stuff on top of other stuff
09:09:57 <joey8> oh ok - shall i uninstall 1.1 first?
09:10:41 <Alberth> 1.1 comes from the package manager?
09:11:08 <Alberth> if so, then likely it also has the openttd data part attached to it, which you need again for 1.3
09:11:32 <Alberth> the package manager does not have 1.3 yet, I guess
09:11:44 <Alberth> so you need to do a manual install of the latter
09:11:58 <joey8> no it doesnt and to a complete klutz (me) i am having difficulties
09:11:59 <Alberth> imho the best solution is to install 1.3 next to 1.1
09:13:00 <Alberth> planetmaker: unfortunately that breaks my concept of translation; I had it dependant on the base language string, but now it depends on 1 file, and 1 string
09:13:32 <Alberth> joey8: the simplest way is to download the generic linux binary
09:13:54 <Alberth> hmm, perhaps there are also packages for your linux version, you should have a look
09:14:04 <planetmaker> Alberth, you could - for that purpose - likely consider custom_tags.txt part of the base language. A part which is untranslatable
09:14:29 <joey8> Alberth➤ ok i will look thank you for your help
09:14:30 <Alberth> planetmaker: yes, but is a *file*, not one string
09:15:13 <Eddi|zuHause> <Alberth> a string literal is for me a double quote character, zero or more other stuff, and a closing double quote character <-- afair those were deliberately not allowed to force people to use the string/lang-file system right from the start
09:15:15 <Alberth> ie you can do {X} {Y}
09:15:51 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: oh? grfid : "AB\02\03"; :)
09:16:20 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, because that's not an actual string :)
09:17:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean in places that require a (displayable) string, those are not allowed
09:17:16 <Eddi|zuHause> not that the language doesn't have them
09:17:33 <andythenorth> I need a string to describe what ship speed param does
09:17:52 <planetmaker> This string allows to put your ships on steroids
09:18:00 <planetmaker> s/string/parameter/g
09:18:05 <andythenorth> or I could just leave it blank, as it's obvious
09:18:09 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: in general that does make sense, ie the unicode stuff is too complicated for many
09:20:02 <Alberth> andythenorth: "rate at which the ships splits water molecules from each other to make room for itself"
09:20:42 <planetmaker> if they start splitting the molecules... wooo!
09:21:03 <Alberth> then it'd run on steroids :)
09:21:25 <planetmaker> hydro-molecular propulsion :-)
09:21:26 <Eddi|zuHause> just apply an electrical charge :)
09:21:30 <planetmaker> sounds like future-tech :-)
09:21:54 <Eddi|zuHause> andy doesn't do futures :p
09:21:55 <planetmaker> finally some future ships :D
09:22:14 <Alberth> in the future we'll live under water :)
09:23:24 <Eddi|zuHause> when you are dutch, that is certainly a possibility :p
09:24:58 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I do historical future
09:25:03 <andythenorth> which is why everyone has hovercraft
09:26:14 <Eddi|zuHause> so then why don't you have ekranoplans :)
09:27:11 <andythenorth> I should add these
09:27:42 <planetmaker> knots is also mph. just other miles ;-)
09:28:30 <Supercheese> "55 knots if sustained"
09:28:43 <andythenorth> Supercheese: never pay attention to sustained ratings
09:28:52 <andythenorth> that is not good for gameplay :P
09:29:02 <andythenorth> it is an enemy of MOAR
09:29:09 <Alberth> andy needs 'cheat' settings :)
09:29:19 <Supercheese> He just did, with the parameter
09:29:58 <Alberth> yeah, but 133% does not give him a concrete speed :p
09:30:13 <Pikka> woo, travelling at the speed of concrete!
09:30:48 <Alberth> hmm, 'actual' is better?
09:31:12 <Pikka> concrete is fine, I suppose!
09:32:08 <andythenorth> you can make concrete boats
09:32:18 <andythenorth> I once had a university lecturer who did that
09:32:25 <andythenorth> concrete is not exciting
09:32:42 <andythenorth> it has exciting uses
09:32:43 <Pikka> what would you rather make boats out of?
09:32:49 <andythenorth> and it's exciting if you fall in it
09:34:05 <Supercheese> Good lord, 1024x1024 maps are enormous
09:35:04 <Pikka> 37s aren't as sexy as F units
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10:19:19 <andythenorth> Pikka: cut a 37 in half, and make b units too
10:19:23 <andythenorth> then it's about the same
10:19:32 <andythenorth> more fake things
10:19:50 <Pikka> it's smaller, so it's harder to draw nice
10:20:31 <Pikka> and all-over blue with yellow noses looks a bit ordinary
10:21:16 <andythenorth> do the police one
10:27:21 <andythenorth> DarkRoastedBlend.grf
10:27:29 <Alberth> shopping for a new car to drive to work andy ?
10:42:17 <jonty-comp> i always wanted to make some sort of steampunk/retro-futurist set for ttd
10:43:27 <Pikka> "This American concept shows the ultimate helicopter:
10:43:28 <Pikka> (at least the largest we've seen drawn on paper)"
10:43:51 <Pikka> whoever wrote that obviously has no idea how big real helicopters get, the drawing is of something chinook sized :)
10:43:54 <Flygon> jonty-comp: Sky Captain and the World of Transport Tycooning
10:44:01 <jonty-comp> something like that :D
10:44:09 <jonty-comp> although god what a terrible film that was
10:52:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i ever watched that
11:10:02 <Flygon> Eddi: It's... interesting
11:10:10 <Flygon> It works for some people, but not for others
11:10:34 <Flygon> It's a homage to basically every single... ... thing, pre-1950
11:10:47 <Flygon> Prodominantly among the style of Dieselpunk
11:13:12 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: only that the Zeppelin NT is already dead
11:13:36 <andythenorth> US military Skylifter is not though
11:14:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i guess the company was totally bloated and just imploded before they could get a working prototype out
11:14:38 <jonty-comp> i wonder if someone has made a V-22 Osprey for TTD
11:14:53 <Flygon> Zeppelin NT lacked much practical purpose, unfortunately
11:15:01 <jonty-comp> if not, then i have found what to do with my morning
11:15:13 <andythenorth> they just cancelled the LEMV
11:15:47 <jonty-comp> but it looked like a bottom :(
11:17:54 <peter1138> hmm, simuscape unreachable?
11:18:31 <Flygon> I'm astounded they didn't sell off the design to private investors, if they canned it
11:18:49 <Flygon> A private company could have interesting things to do with a supermassive Airship
11:19:12 <Flygon> Want to go on a trip around the world... vertically?
11:19:33 <Eddi|zuHause> "cruse flight tour: 2 weeks across the USA"?
11:20:04 <jonty-comp> peter1138: inb4 ddos
11:21:36 <andythenorth> peter1138: seems to be :(
11:23:52 <Flygon> I foresee freight being a good use
11:24:10 <Flygon> Also, and this is the same for any Airship
11:24:14 <Flygon> Safe transportation for oil rigs
11:25:34 <Pikka> jonty-comp, you can probably delete that thread now :)
11:27:59 <Flygon> Eddi: I'd rather a cruise flight from New York to Tokyo
11:29:19 <Flygon> See the sights of the United Kingdom, to Europe (eg. France, Germany, Switzerland), have Americans crapping their dacks over the Middle East, cruise over India, ...yadayada, something about too much bloody smog in China, and finally land in the technological paradise of Tokyo
11:29:29 <Flygon> Travel 50km out, and experience the wonders of Japanese Fax Machines
11:30:54 <Flygon> Going from New York to Tokyo via Seattle would present you the wonders of trees
11:31:01 <Flygon> Lots. And lots. And lots. Of Trees.
11:33:24 <Eddi|zuHause> avoids the whole middle east thingie :p
11:34:04 <Flygon> Yes, but for an efficient route
11:34:23 <Flygon> Both Siberia and Middle East are bleak
11:34:33 <Flygon> The point of the tour is to give very interesting sights
11:34:42 <Eddi|zuHause> but isn't one point about cruises that you end up where you started?
11:34:57 <Flygon> Assuming the Chinese airforce cooperated and allowed nice looking views...
11:35:43 <Eddi|zuHause> if you want to go from A to B, you take the plane, if you want to have a nice time, you want to be home after a week or two
11:39:18 <jonty-comp> so put parachutes on the airship
11:39:28 <jonty-comp> then when you're floating over your hometown, you just jump out
11:39:33 <Flygon> Eddi: How about this, from Tokyo to Hawaii, to San Fran, to NY
11:42:03 <Eddi|zuHause> note that in each of these places you need a location to land so the people can spend a day in the town
11:42:48 <Flygon> You're screwed in Japan, then
11:42:56 <Flygon> There's nowhere in Tok-
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11:43:31 <Flygon> One of the advantages of Blimps is the theoretical possibility of an above-air passenger disembarkment...
11:43:35 <Rubidium> a day in Tokyo? Are you trying to do the Europe in 7 days kind of thing?
11:43:49 <Rubidium> Flygon: there's plenty of places where a blimp can land in Tokyo
11:44:21 <Eddi|zuHause> one that needs 300m runway?
11:44:23 <Flygon> If you're gonna be a cruise ship, gotta do it in massive style
11:44:58 <Flygon> I'm not sure there's anywhere within 30-50km of the CBD that could handle a blimp LANDING that's so big
11:46:07 <Rubidium> the big (national-ish) airport is only 20 km away
11:46:25 <Flygon> Could that handle a 1500m long blimp?
11:46:44 <Rubidium> I see no reason why it can't
11:47:02 <Rubidium> it's completely man-made land, so a place for a 1500m blimp can be made as well
11:47:03 <Flygon> Either way, easy to land the in Australia :p
11:47:39 <Flygon> Er, wait, stupid statement
11:47:49 <Flygon> Plenty of unused ground, and is a good helidepot...
11:48:06 <Rubidium> alternatively... the blimp could land on water
11:48:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure every place that you actually WANT to go to in australia is equally crowded as europe...
11:48:25 <Flygon> That's a good idea, rough weather gives concerns though
11:48:43 <Flygon> Eddi: Look up the urban density of Melbourne and Sydney
11:48:58 <Flygon> It pales compared to Paris, London, Warsaw...
11:49:19 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: so the houses are smaller, there still won't be any large enough spaces without houses
11:49:56 <Flygon> Melbourne's urban sprawl is stupidly high in the East...
11:50:26 <Flygon> I can name one airport that could be trivially expanded for supermassive airships, and also be linked to a local fast train line
11:50:44 <Flygon> Presuming they electrified it, so that 200-230km/h actually becomes practical >_>
11:50:53 <Flygon> Current Diesels lack the acceleration
11:51:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think that is in australia :p
11:52:08 <Flygon> I think Supermassive airships have good freight and passenger transport
11:52:40 <Rubidium> you know those things become massive wind catchers, right?
11:53:00 <Flygon> True, and they'd be rigid...
11:53:48 <Eddi|zuHause> of course they'd be rigid, they're not hot air balloons
11:53:57 <Flygon> Well, you can make nonrigid airships
11:54:00 <Flygon> But they're not as good
11:54:37 <Flygon> And transporting coal using airships is kinda stupid
11:54:58 <Flygon> I think it has some practical use for more inland materials, though, eg. uranium
11:54:59 <Rubidium> Flygon: Mirabal airport was envisioned as a 100.000 acres (40.000 ha), currently it's 17.000 acres which includes plenty of room for expansion
11:55:20 <Flygon> Rubidium: With airships, AUSTRALIA is an airport :P
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11:56:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure berlin tempelhof would be a nice place for large airships :p
11:57:16 <Eddi|zuHause> nice empty space with no use, in the middle of the city
11:57:44 <Flygon> I know it's an injoke, but I don't get it :(
11:57:59 <Flygon> Sounds like saying Frankston is the worlds largest prison, though
11:58:57 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: Berlin Brandenburg would be a nice place as well for the coming decade
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12:00:00 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: berlin used to have 3 airports. two in west and one in east. then they decided they want to have one big airport and close down the two others, the smallest one, Tempelhof, was closed like 10 years ago already, the larger one, Tegel, was supposed to be closed last year together with the opening of the really large one near the old third airport, Schönefeld. but then they totally failed to open that in time
12:00:41 <Eddi|zuHause> Schönefeld is directly outside berlin's borders
12:01:05 <Flygon> Melbourne has at least 3 airports
12:01:29 <Flygon> Essendon, Tullamarine, and Avalon (which is closer to Geelong)
12:02:25 <Flygon> But Essendon is used for only specific flights, Tullamarine is the big one
12:03:06 <Flygon> ...the Liberal Government wants to built ANOTHER airport... instead of building trainlines to Tulla OR Avalon >_>
12:03:11 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: the actual scandal is that everything was prepared, and then like a month before opening they said "ugh... i guess we won't make it, we need at least another half year", and then they said "ugh, another year may be more realistic" and they ended up with "i guess we have no clue when we can make it"
12:03:35 <Flygon> How Australian of Germany
12:06:42 <Pikka> frosch123, not necessarily "looping", but it would be nice to have the interval between sound effects be regular. :)
12:07:03 <frosch123> you won't get them perfectly regular
12:07:13 <frosch123> sound playback is a realtime thing
12:07:21 <frosch123> esp. with lots of vehicles
12:08:13 <Pikka> I may just have to deal with it then, as I did in the past. :) the "pattern" seems odd though.
12:09:58 <Eddi|zuHause> how is it that cats always occupy the space you want to occupy?
12:10:30 <Pikka> like there's a counter which is overflowing...
12:10:58 <Eddi|zuHause> if i want to go to bet, they lie on the bed, if i want to sit on the chair, they lie on the chair, if i want to get dressed they lie on the clothes, ... :p
12:11:08 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: whatever space I occupy, babies want me out of it, for one reason or another
12:11:55 <Eddi|zuHause> if i want to go down the stairs, they are on the step directly below, for every step
12:13:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i think Schrödinger never observed the right quantum effects with his cat
12:13:51 <andythenorth> I just had to move off the sofa
12:13:59 <andythenorth> so the toddler can watch tv
12:14:55 <Eddi|zuHause> just record the show, cut out the commercials, and he will watch TV for 40% shorter time :)
12:15:38 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: just sit on them; they should be able to learn it
12:16:30 <Eddi|zuHause> postulate: "cats don't occupy any space until you try to move"
12:17:04 <Eddi|zuHause> "then they occupy exactly the space that you want to move to"
12:17:21 <andythenorth> there's probably a game idea in it
12:17:32 <andythenorth> reminds me of old BBC micro games
12:19:44 <andythenorth> FISH has info about propulsion type of the ship
12:19:52 <andythenorth> is that worth bothering with?
12:20:23 <Pikka> I'm not even putting info about the propulsion type of my trains any more :)
12:22:05 <andythenorth> I kind of like the propulsion info
12:22:11 <andythenorth> but I have boats with 100 year model life
12:22:25 <andythenorth> propelled by: steam, compound steam, diesel, waterjet
12:22:52 <andythenorth> changing the string is faff
12:26:34 <Eddi|zuHause> there was recently a TV show who mocked around monopoly replacing the flat-iron piece with a cat, that now the flat-iron tries to become as popular as cats on the internet. and one of the videos they parodized was the "don't blink cat" :(
12:27:46 <andythenorth> I wish newgrf lang was a database :P
12:27:51 <andythenorth> dropping a string is painful
12:27:53 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: just introduce it as a new model with different running costs?
12:27:57 <andythenorth> dropping 10 strings is extra painful
12:28:10 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: sed/awk?
12:28:26 <andythenorth> requires andythenorth to be more clever
12:28:47 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r25005 trunk/src/lang/unfinished/gaelic.txt (2013-02-16 12:28:45 UTC)
12:28:48 <DorpsGek> -Add: Scottish Gaelic
12:29:10 <Eddi|zuHause> "sed -i /STR_BLAH/d" or something
12:29:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd have to look up the exact thing
12:30:43 <andythenorth> one day I'll learn sed
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12:30:54 <andythenorth> I figure not doing that is wasting a lot of my time :P
12:32:31 <Eddi|zuHause> just put the command into a "drop_sting.sh" file :)
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12:34:46 <Alberth> sort of, the base system is up again :)
12:35:12 <Alberth> I am sure I am still missing lots of packages :)
12:40:08 <andythenorth> nmlc can use a different lang folder?
12:41:58 <Eddi|zuHause> it's probably a parameter
12:43:06 <andythenorth> the FISH makefile appears to be an nfo one
12:49:40 <Eddi|zuHause> i was under the impression the makefile was a plugin-style system
12:50:01 <andythenorth> pl*netmaker would know :)
12:50:08 <andythenorth> I just am glad that it works
12:52:13 <planetmaker> yes... and no. I've written and re-written makefile(s) so often... it's hard to say
12:52:31 <planetmaker> depends on which you actually got :D
12:52:47 <jonty-comp> nice post there planetmaker
12:52:59 <Eddi|zuHause> why does the +5V sensor say +2.98V?
12:53:00 <jonty-comp> i totally forgot the openttd forum was tt-forums :p
12:53:35 <planetmaker> different ground?
12:55:58 <Eddi|zuHause> "intrusion0: ALARM"... soso...
12:58:21 <Alberth> a burglar in your computer!!!
12:59:26 <andythenorth> the extra info about capacity is ugly
12:59:33 <andythenorth> (end of the buy menu)
13:00:23 <planetmaker> I think it doesn't matter exactly, if capacity of other cargos is in the range of the default one
13:01:29 <andythenorth> certainly there's no point repeating the pax capacity if pax is default cargo
13:02:36 <planetmaker> but hard to know the default cargo
13:03:58 <andythenorth> it's a property in the config
13:04:14 <andythenorth> if some industry grf removes pax, well meh :)
13:05:39 <planetmaker> yes, that's why :-)
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13:09:49 <andythenorth> I want a nice way to work out the parent class of an entity from its subclass
13:10:10 <andythenorth> i.e. I know it's a fast_ferry, ferry, or whatever
13:10:42 <andythenorth> I could do a dict of horrible mappings
13:10:54 <andythenorth> ach I'll do that, it's simplest
13:12:51 <frosch123> 144 tons of suspicious lasagne found :)
13:13:04 <frosch123> i am surprised how many horses are around
13:13:42 <jonty-comp> surely there aren't that many horses for this whole thing to be viable
13:15:56 <Rubidium> frosch123: all those 8 year old girls wanting and getting a pony, but once they are like 16 they want to get rid of them
13:16:23 <planetmaker> if lasagne contains 10% meat... it's 14 tons of meat. And even that is much meat content and if 100% of the meat is horse
13:16:28 <frosch123> so it's andy's fault
13:17:36 <Rubidium> also... it'll be 144 tons of probably mislabeled lasagna
13:24:04 <andythenorth> fish r1k getting close
13:29:46 <V453000> didnt fish get eaten? :P
13:30:30 <Alberth> it wiggled its way out of it :)
13:30:31 <Eddi|zuHause> have you ever met a girl that actually GOT a pony?
13:30:51 <planetmaker> my sister. But those are full-grown horses
13:31:01 <frosch123> i am not sure about pony/horse
13:31:10 <planetmaker> and she got them at her wedding
13:31:11 <frosch123> but yes, i have met several girls with horses
13:32:12 <frosch123> i think those girls i think of got their horse like other youth get a moped
13:32:18 <frosch123> with 16 or 18 or so
13:33:06 <planetmaker> yes, some of my friends had some back then, too
13:33:17 <planetmaker> gotta live in the country side ;-)
13:33:39 <frosch123> otoh the girls at age 8 who team up with their friends to save a few euros every week from their pocket money... they usually do not end up with horses :)
13:33:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i just had a pizza with horse-salami and horse-mushrooms, anyway...
13:34:53 <planetmaker> iew... those horses won't be tasty anymore then :D
13:35:19 <frosch123> apparently they are called sheep-mushrooms in german :p
13:36:15 <andythenorth> V453000: fish ate squid instead
13:36:26 <frosch123> there is always a bigger fish
13:36:44 <andythenorth> Squid includes trawlers
13:37:02 <andythenorth> I was going to give them 30t of fish cargo in holds, or 15t or so of any cargo on deck
13:37:10 <andythenorth> dunno if that's good
13:38:11 <Eddi|zuHause> just make a normal ship and have them show up as fish trawlers if refitted to fish (trawler) subtype
13:39:02 <Eddi|zuHause> subtypes so it won't be used with normal autorefit
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14:50:46 <Markk> How do you say: "I have written to you on Facebook chat, can you please check it out?" in German?
14:51:12 <Markk> I could of course use Google Translate, but that wouldn't be especially grammatically correct.
14:52:03 <Kylar> grammar is pretty much consistent in all languages
14:52:18 <Kylar> a comma is a comma, etc
14:52:23 <Alberth> the chat language was no problem, but this message is?
14:56:38 <Alberth> if you need to drive today, it is probably :)
14:57:16 <Kylar> I dont hold a licence so I'm OK lol
14:57:51 <Kylar> I have my fella to act as chauffeur
14:59:51 <Markk> So my head is not really clear.
14:59:54 <Kylar> I live on the top of a mountain in the middle of Spain, I aint walking anywhere
15:00:09 <Markk> Just jump down, a lot quicker.
15:00:16 <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: Do you fancy helping me? :)
15:00:22 <Kylar> Lots of fluids for you then Markk
15:00:24 <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: I know that you're a nice fellow.
15:05:24 <Markk> Kylar: Yes, I've taken a double dosage of acetylsalicylic acid (or aspirin as many countries call it), 1 gram of paracetamol (or as the yankees calls it: acetaminophen), I've drank quite a lot of water as well (the form of acetylsalicylic acid I took is fizzies, the name is Treo), and then I took some diclofenac as a gel and applied to my neck and shoulders.
15:05:54 <Markk> Also some muscle relaxant and a bit stronger pain killer that I have prescriped.
15:06:05 <Markk> So I'm starting to feel a bit normal.
15:06:16 <Markk> I really, really, want to be normal today.
15:06:38 <Eddi|zuHause> you probably shouldn't be doing german in this state :p
15:06:53 <Eddi|zuHause> so what have you come up with so far?
15:08:08 <Kylar> Markk, you are aware that you can take paracetamol and ibuprofen together don't you
15:08:39 <Kylar> ibuprofen is quite good with the flu
15:08:41 <Markk> I didn't take any ibuprofen though.
15:09:04 <Markk> And paracetamol isn't a NSAID.
15:09:07 <Kylar> as it's an anti inflam it will take the swelling off the muscle
15:09:43 <Kylar> also warm lemonade with whisky
15:10:37 <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: But anyway, how do you say "can you please check X, because I've written a message there for you." in German?
15:11:11 <Kylar> booze and meds, fabulous darling!
15:11:46 <Eddi|zuHause> Markk: you do the words and i help you arrange them in the right way, deal? :)
15:12:14 <Kylar> i could do with someone doing that for me with spanish!
15:13:07 <Markk> Kylar: Don't really like alcohol like that.
15:13:35 <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: So I shall find the german words for it any you help me to correct the grammar?
15:14:06 <Kylar> get yourself a cheap bottle of whiskey and have a few hot toddies.
15:14:29 <Markk> Not like I can buy whiskey at this hour.
15:15:19 <Kylar> grammar is grammar regardless, all languages have commas, apostrophes, full stops etc. They generally are placed the same as English
15:15:25 <Kylar> and what time is it Markk
15:16:02 <Eddi|zuHause> why would there be a time limit for buxing whiskey?
15:17:20 <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: "Können Sie bitte eine Nachricht, dass ich für dich schrieb bei Facebook?"
15:17:45 <Markk> Then you'll understand.
15:18:17 <Kylar> ahhh didnt reallise you were in sweden
15:18:42 <Kylar> I actually want to return
15:18:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Markk: step 1) i'd reverse those two parts, first say what you did, then what the other person should do.
15:18:57 <Markk> I have some liqour in the fridge though.
15:19:50 <__ln__> it's a closet which stays cold and keeps food fresh.
15:19:55 <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: This was the meaning that I translated: "Can you please check a message that I wrote for you on Facebook?"
15:20:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Markk: yes, but i think it's bad style
15:20:35 <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: This was the first part I translated: "can you please check the Facebook, because I've written a message there for you"
15:20:40 <Markk> ""können Sie überprüfen Sie bitte die Facebook, weil ich dort eine Nachricht für Sie geschrieben habe
15:21:31 <Kylar> I want to invade one of the OTT servers but the connection keeps dropping :(
15:21:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Kylar: the map is too big?
15:22:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Kylar: there is a timelimit for downloading the map, and then a time limit for catching up with the server
15:24:28 <Kylar> I'm going to leave it for now - I think windows is downloading updates, so it's taking up a fair whack of my bandwidth
15:26:50 <Kylar> how do you start a multiplayer game?
15:27:49 <frosch123> you click multiplayer
15:28:39 <Kylar> sorry, I meant host a multiplayer game
15:29:03 <Alberth> you click multiplayer :)
15:29:12 <Kylar> OK! No need to be smart arses
15:30:01 <frosch123> not sure whether the info is complete you might also need:
15:30:03 <DorpsGek> frosch123: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
15:30:44 <Alberth> yeah, port forwarding is always a mess to set up
15:31:24 <frosch123> just play only lan :p
15:31:29 <jonty-comp> can't you make bananas just download over http? then that's one less port
15:31:44 <Kylar> I'm not quite that good on the PC lol. I'll have a play with it and see what I can do
15:31:48 <jonty-comp> although i'm sure such has been discussed before
15:32:20 <frosch123> jonty-comp: it uses http for some stuff, but some stuff cannot be made available via http
15:32:30 <Kylar> When my fellas stopped streaming youtubes entire video archive
15:37:14 <Kylar> hes a bleeding nightmare when hes on youtube, you'd think he was downloading the entire internet
15:39:02 <Kylar> right, im gonna make a move need a bath
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16:22:39 <andythenorth> I've banned Fish cargo from most of the ferries
16:22:53 <andythenorth> because going fishing with ferries is a silly
16:26:15 <andythenorth> petrol on ferries?
16:30:35 <andythenorth> tankers carrying alcohol?
16:30:45 <kormer> Does anyone here have any clue why GSTown.ExpandTown(this.id,1); would only ever work on a single town and not the others?
16:31:29 <jonty-comp> man i would like to hijack an oil tanker if it was full of alcohol
16:31:45 <kormer> I've got conditional checks before that, and I'm logging the parameters inside the condition, so I know it's being executed on the other towns, it just isn't doing anything.
16:33:49 <jonty-comp> aw, they aren't big enough
16:43:10 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r25006 /trunk/src/script/api (game/game_window.hpp.sq script_window.hpp) (2013-02-16 16:43:05 UTC)
16:43:11 <DorpsGek> -Fix: Update script_window.
16:48:26 <andythenorth> allow bulk cargos like coal?
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17:34:10 <__ln__> can someone point me to a definition for 'platform' in computing context? some sort of textbook or something, not wikipedia.
17:53:56 * Zuu published some preliminary patches of click-on-string. They need some overlook on naming of things etc.
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17:59:42 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: i don't remember ever seeing such a thing
18:02:24 <terjesc> __ln__: I have searched some of my CS books, but can't find any of them mentioning 'platform'.
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18:04:22 <jonty-comp> aaah the scary moment when you take your backup server offline to replace a disk
18:04:43 <jonty-comp> and have to watch your coworker on the live camera taking it to bits
18:04:48 <jonty-comp> pls to not break my backup
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18:07:31 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, plus to not breaking backups
18:07:55 <__ln__> zomg, i think i've found a definition through books.google.com. in short, "The platform is the set of software and hardware services that are provided to the application."
18:08:23 <terjesc> __ln__: "Distributed Systems - Concepts and Designs", fourth edition, Addison Wesley (ISBN 978-0-321-26354-4) has a description on page 32.
18:08:51 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, that's about what i would have come up with... "the combination of hardware and operating system environment"
18:09:13 <terjesc> Along with a figure showing the layers of a system: Computer and network hardware, operating system, middleware and applications/services. The two bottom layers are marked "Platform".
18:10:10 <__ln__> thanks terjesc, i'll have a look at that book as well.
18:10:54 <terjesc> "The lowest-level hardware and software layers are often referred to as a platform for distributed systems and applications. (...) Intel x86/Windows, Intel x86/Solaris, PowerPC/Mac OS X (...) are major examples."
18:11:48 <__ln__> for the record, the one that i found was in "Embedded System Design" by Gajski et al.
18:13:01 <__ln__> terjesc: ah, that's even a better definition for my purposes.
18:14:21 <Alberth> the lowest level are indivual logic gates, imho
18:14:54 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: not if you consider "hardware" as one monolithic level ;)
18:15:15 <Alberth> and the lowest software level is probably in programming the CPU instructions
18:15:48 <terjesc> In this context it is "hardware" (as a whole) and "operating system". q:
18:16:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: that is a semantical layer ("lower level programming language" vs. "higher level programming language), not a logical layer (direct interfacing with hardware, vs. indirect interfacing with hardware)
18:16:52 <Alberth> why not just use "operating system?"
18:17:08 <__ln__> because the OS is not the same as platform
18:17:36 <terjesc> "Platform" is all the way down from OS to HW, while OS is just the OS.
18:17:40 <__ln__> Linux on i386 is in many sense not the same platform as Linux on ARMv6
18:18:05 <Alberth> it is? all standard unix utilities work the same
18:18:25 <Alberth> and one cc further, you have an arbitrary app running
18:19:26 <Alberth> if you write good C/C++, it is
18:19:33 <__ln__> let's say a platform is binary-compatible with itself. m'kay?
18:19:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: they may be interface compatible, but not binary compatible
18:19:51 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: hence 'cc', ie build from source
18:20:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: so "platform" is now including the compiler?
18:20:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i really doubt that
18:22:08 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i don't think many people have compilers on their phones
18:22:30 <Eddi|zuHause> yet "iPhone/iOS" is a platform in every sense of the word
18:23:05 <Alberth> like it is uniform hardware :p
18:24:00 <Alberth> we have very nice experiences with patches that worked on one i* machine failed on another :D
18:24:37 <Eddi|zuHause> what does that have to do with anything?
18:24:49 <terjesc> Is that to say you wrote bad code?
18:25:36 <Eddi|zuHause> nobody said a platform can't have "poorly documented features"
18:25:47 <Alberth> terjesc: impossible to say, with lack of sane documentation
18:27:00 <Alberth> but you see the same mess with your average PC card, manufacturers constantly switch components to save a few cents
18:28:28 <terjesc> Well, anyway, the way I have seen the term "platform" used is to describe OS and the CPU Instruction Set Architecture.
18:29:14 <terjesc> Of course there are different CPU vendors and a myriad of other hardware in a machine.
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18:39:59 <oskari89> Oh why there can't be drag&drop for objects...
18:40:38 <oskari89> Dutch Road Furniture would be more comfortable to use with that drag&drop
18:45:13 <Rubidium> because nobody bothered to come up with a decent specification
18:46:00 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25007 /trunk/src/lang (9 files) (2013-02-16 18:45:45 UTC)
18:46:01 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:46:02 <DorpsGek> bulgarian - 15 changes by ivanarj
18:46:03 <DorpsGek> esperanto - 1 changes by Asakha
18:46:04 <DorpsGek> greek - 41 changes by Evropi
18:46:05 <DorpsGek> hungarian - 24 changes by oklmernok
18:46:06 <DorpsGek> icelandic - 4 changes by Stimrol
18:46:07 <DorpsGek> japanese - 50 changes by Aknuth
18:46:08 <DorpsGek> korean - 2 changes by telk5093
18:46:09 <DorpsGek> norwegian_nynorsk - 1 changes by skjaeve
18:46:10 <DorpsGek> polish - 4 changes by wojteks86
18:46:40 <Eddi|zuHause> i think we had that same discussion a week ago :p
18:47:20 <Rubidium> as long as "we" doesn't include me, then yes that's possible. Otherwise, I can't remember a thing of it
18:51:54 <peter1138> ooh, rgb colour maps still compiles :p
18:52:03 <oskari89> *sigh* diagonal roads could be nice too...
18:52:07 <peter1138> hotpink company colour
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19:16:03 <peter1138> heh, no, company colour recoloring
19:16:47 <oskari89> Is there any patch "Clone x number of vehicles with one click?
19:17:29 <peter1138> yes but it's pretty old
19:17:55 <supermop> to arbitrary rgb values?
19:18:44 <peter1138> 32bpp blitter only feature, heh
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19:23:06 <V453000> when will colours be in trunk peter1138? :)
19:30:37 <Eddi|zuHause> there are colours in trunk
19:43:01 <Snail> tbh I'm comfortable with the default 256 colors, especially since the sprites are so small
19:43:31 <Snail> we could use an extra set of shades of red though :p
19:45:13 <frosch123> use the fire cycle :p
19:45:50 <Rubidium> that's also a shade of red, isn't it?
19:46:17 <Rubidium> just a bit too much green ;)
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19:51:55 <Rubidium> looks like a typical Japanese commercial
19:58:00 <Snail> the fire cycle is made of blinking pixels :p
19:58:55 <Snail> and tbh I love all those different greens :D
20:08:58 <Eddi|zuHause> so, who is going to reattach my retina now? :p
20:09:40 <frosch123> they could even show you the path at night
20:11:28 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: obviously someone from the genius bar
20:14:41 <andythenorth> should I ban bulk cargos from the cargo hovercraft?
20:15:50 <frosch123> maybe you could reduce the running cost, if it transports hover boards
20:17:20 <andythenorth> what about helium?
20:17:57 <Eddi|zuHause> make an anti-grav cargo class?
20:18:33 <andythenorth> where does it go?
20:19:14 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Probabaly don't ban them, just increase the running cost until it's uneconomic to use them :P
20:19:28 <FLHerne> Same as helicopters...
20:19:32 <andythenorth> running cost is not a gameplay factor
20:19:44 <andythenorth> the only things that matter are refits, capacity and speed
20:19:51 <andythenorth> the rest is piffle
20:20:07 <FLHerne> Increase the running cost until it *is* a factor, then :P
20:20:17 * FLHerne is already a basecosts-grf user
20:21:02 <andythenorth> that's why in MP you have double-headed electrics on every cargo :P
20:21:09 <andythenorth> because you care so much :D
20:21:18 <andythenorth> or was that scuddles?
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20:21:54 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: set cargp aging on "slow" ships so the speed doesn't matter...
20:23:24 <frosch123> andythenorth: surely overall cost do not matter. but unprofitable routes are a pain to see
20:24:05 <andythenorth> I've forgotten how classes work
20:24:08 <Rubidium> just needs the cargodist 'capacity' overlay that shows the average profit of the trains passing there
20:24:37 <andythenorth> if cargo is piece, covered, and my vehicle is piece, and doesn't exclude covered
20:24:39 <andythenorth> then all is well?
20:27:47 <andythenorth> yeah it will be fine
20:28:55 <andythenorth> tankers carrying milk?
20:30:01 <Eddi|zuHause> just don't exclude liquid on the piece-freighter then
20:30:16 <andythenorth> I'm preferring to exclude known cargos in fact
20:30:24 <Eddi|zuHause> assuming milk is piece,liquid
20:30:25 <andythenorth> excluding unknown cargos by class is prone to breaking classes
20:30:37 <andythenorth> classes / class based refitting /s
20:30:42 <andythenorth> as Zeph proved :P
20:31:05 <Eddi|zuHause> you just have to make sure you have one "monotonous" refit mask
20:31:40 <Eddi|zuHause> so if you ever exclude a cargo class, you need to have a vehicle that includes this mask and does not exclude any others
20:35:38 <FLHerne> andythenorth: That's atypical of me (delayed response) :P
20:36:22 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Different settings, and competetiveness - normally I try to use every vehicle at least once :D
20:37:29 <andythenorth> can't decide if ferries can deliver petrol
20:37:52 <andythenorth> plenty of other ships carrying petrol
20:39:45 <andythenorth> mail in container ships?
20:39:54 <andythenorth> Squid could say yes
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20:41:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't decide that
20:42:07 <andythenorth> there are no shortage of ships for carrying mail
20:42:14 <Eddi|zuHause> you'd want to have mail/armored/express in faster ships
20:42:21 <andythenorth> of similar capacities and speed as the container ships
20:42:31 <andythenorth> it's just logically a bit odd
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20:43:42 <FLHerne_> Petrol on ferries - I doubt it in useful quantities, they don't normally like hazardous substances...
20:43:56 <Eddi|zuHause> excluding mail on "cargo" ships may be better for cerain autorefit cases
20:44:06 <FLHerne_> Voting no for containerised mail
20:44:43 <andythenorth> and no to petrol on ferries
20:45:20 <andythenorth> changing subject, FIRS needs lot of translation updates still
20:45:24 <andythenorth> I could release 0.9.3 then
20:45:29 <FLHerne_> Probably not the kind of domestic mail I'd imagine in OTTD for that?
20:46:50 <andythenorth> no you won't go fishing by hovercraft
20:47:34 <andythenorth> there are probably all kinds of cases about shipping large amounts of frozen fish and such
20:48:43 <Eddi|zuHause> excluding fish is a nice idea
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20:49:11 <andythenorth> there's probably a pun in this somewhere
20:49:15 <andythenorth> FISH: doesn't refit Fish
20:51:05 <andythenorth> there are trawlers :P
20:51:14 <andythenorth> and big general cargo ships that refit anything
20:51:20 <frosch123> not transporting fish would break firs, wouldn't it? :p
20:51:38 <frosch123> also, is is very common that big fish have smaller fish in their stomache
20:52:22 <andythenorth> 3x longer than the largest ship in FISH
20:52:39 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 155.555555556
20:52:48 <andythenorth> you would need 155 fishing grounds to fill it in one month
20:53:02 <andythenorth> maybe an add-on set :P
20:53:12 <Alberth> but luckily it cannot transport fish :p
20:54:28 <peter1138> a trawler that can't trawl fish?
20:55:11 <andythenorth> so who's got a spec for ships with multiple cargo holds?
20:56:43 <andythenorth> ships have 2 holds
20:56:50 <andythenorth> each can be refitted independently
20:57:05 <andythenorth> capacity can be set for each independently
20:57:19 <andythenorth> cb36 can handle changing properties on 1st or 2nd hold
20:57:31 <andythenorth> some authors will ask for more than 2 holds
20:57:58 <andythenorth> holds can be named by newgrf
20:58:08 <andythenorth> 'Holds | Cabins'
20:58:13 <andythenorth> 'Holds | Deck Cargo'
20:58:19 <andythenorth> 'Tanks | Deck Cargo'
20:58:40 <andythenorth> each hold has a refit mask (classes, labels)
20:58:59 <andythenorth> don't arse about with loading speed per hold, unless it's easier to just allow it
21:00:01 <andythenorth> cb 36 gains a var to check which hold is being modified?
21:00:09 <andythenorth> purchase menu crap needs handling
21:03:31 <peter1138> fish is a stupid cargo anyway
21:03:58 <peter1138> you're a transport tycoon, not a fisherman
21:04:18 <peter1138> DHL don't have fishing subsidiaries do they?
21:04:20 <andythenorth> that was like 10 weeks of discussion in the FIRS dev thread
21:04:31 <andythenorth> it went back and forth, forth and back
21:04:43 <andythenorth> then I did it anyway
21:04:50 <andythenorth> I like deadliest catch
21:06:43 <Eddi|zuHause> "one of these cargos is not like the others"
21:08:41 <LSky`> hey everyone, im trying to get my server back online after I updated it to a new revision. However the two people who usually help me understand linux arent available at the moment, and Im a bit stuck. Anyone who could help me a little?
21:10:02 <planetmaker> LSky`, it needs somewhat more specific question...
21:10:06 <LSky`> the primary issue is that the autopilot script has stopped working correctly since i updated the server, but aside from that I cant get it to run manually either
21:10:45 <LSky`> from what i understand, im supposed to cd to the directly where the installation is located and then run something along the lines of; ./openttd -D -c openttd.cfg
21:11:24 <LSky`> but that gives me this error; ror: No available language packs (invalid versions?)
21:11:39 <planetmaker> then you didn't compile the languages
21:11:57 <planetmaker> ./configure && make
21:12:11 <planetmaker> or you encountered an error during compilation
21:12:32 <LSky`> i just did the compiling for the windows client, not the linux server, so thats a complicating factor
21:13:03 <LSky`> guess its back to the drawing board.
21:17:57 <LSky`> just to make sure, im not running into this issue?
21:19:14 <andythenorth> logs via container ship? allowed?
21:19:14 <planetmaker> very hard to tell. We don't know how your server and the dirs look like
21:19:34 <planetmaker> I simply get a full checkout of openttd, compile it. And start it also from there
21:20:36 <Alberth> the former is meh, imho
21:20:53 <planetmaker> they also have their openttd.cfg right next to the binary. so no fancy paths need specification
21:21:03 <Eddi|zuHause> you have special ships for fish and logs, so exclude it
21:21:25 <andythenorth> I am easily convinced
21:21:50 <andythenorth> Pikka: if 10CC is an elaborate troll of me...well :P
21:22:00 <andythenorth> of me? aimed at me :P
21:22:16 <andythenorth> so no wood by hovercraft
21:22:22 <andythenorth> no hover-logging
21:22:52 <FLHerne_> andythenorth: Don't prohibit it, make it impractical :P
21:23:00 <andythenorth> FLHerne_: it's boring to do that
21:23:13 <FLHerne_> Of course, you have a statutory right to ignore anything I say :D
21:23:17 <andythenorth> what you do is make a choice, then try to make it a non-choice :)
21:23:27 <andythenorth> which is just tedious cognitive work, and not really very gamey
21:23:59 <andythenorth> but thanks anyway ;)
21:24:30 <andythenorth> Pikka: have you done your industry grf yet? I need to see if my ships refit for it sensibly :P
21:25:00 <Pikka> it's basically default cargos anyway
21:25:13 <Pikka> +gravel, "cement" and fertiliser
21:25:31 <andythenorth> I tested default and PBI
21:25:39 <andythenorth> refits seem ok to me
21:25:49 <andythenorth> didn't test Toyland with anything :P
21:26:21 <frosch123> lumber? why not wood or timber?
21:26:51 <andythenorth> it's semantic minefield :P
21:26:56 <Pikka> and "timber" is either in british english
21:27:02 <FLHerne_> andythenorth: ECS is common and overcomplex, is it not?
21:27:03 <FLHerne_> Might be worth testing that
21:27:20 <andythenorth> FLHerne_: are you volunteering? o_O Or would you volunteer someone else?
21:29:03 <FLHerne_> andythenorth: I could give it a try, I guess :P
21:29:17 <FLHerne_> Is relevant version on devzone?
21:29:23 <andythenorth> I just linked it above
21:29:56 <andythenorth> I volunteered myself though
21:30:12 <andythenorth> why does the container ship refit to tourists?
21:32:15 <andythenorth> George: Tourists...Express? Really? :)
21:32:20 <andythenorth> that's necessary?
21:33:41 <Pikka> if you want to deal with tourists you have to exclude passenger class
21:33:51 <andythenorth> I want to not deal with tourists :P
21:33:58 <andythenorth> I'll just exclude them
21:34:17 <Pikka> make everything explicitly not carry tourists
21:34:19 <andythenorth> from bloody every vehicle
21:34:43 <FLHerne_> Why does ECS have tourists as a separate cargo anyway?
21:34:56 <FLHerne_> What stops them being like any other passenger?
21:35:04 <Pikka> for the same reason NARS2 has regearing
21:35:10 <Pikka> it seemed like a good idea at the time
21:35:30 <Pikka> who knows, perhaps tourists continue to seem like a good idea to some :)
21:35:48 <andythenorth> should just change the class
21:37:29 <Eddi|zuHause> tourists might be easier since autorefit, but very few sets support that yet
21:37:37 <andythenorth> ferries should carry ECS vehicles
21:37:46 * andythenorth doing ECS support? :o
21:37:59 <Eddi|zuHause> problem is that "articulated" vehicles like trams can only have either/or
21:38:35 <andythenorth> and that it has express set as a class :P
21:39:22 <Eddi|zuHause> another problem is that you should differentiate between "outgoing" and "incoming" tourists, so you can't circle them around between tourist centers
21:39:32 <andythenorth> anyway, there now, lots of ships that can carry ECS Vehicles
21:43:43 <andythenorth> ECS oil well is nice
21:43:56 <andythenorth> Pikka: does ECS have your oil well graphics?
21:47:01 <Pikka> www.pikkarail.com/junk/andytroll.png
21:47:41 <andythenorth> that tractor is nice
21:48:21 <andythenorth> same size as an F unit eh?
21:48:55 <Pikka> it's longer, and less high :)
21:49:08 <Eddi|zuHause> is that supposed to be an american flag?
21:49:33 <andythenorth> can you reuse the F for pineapple?
21:49:46 <Eddi|zuHause> in which reality? :)
21:50:11 <Pikka> no I can't, for a number of reasons
21:50:39 <Pikka> our loading gauge is UK-sized
21:50:51 <Pikka> we didn't have F Units :]
21:51:01 <andythenorth> are all those clyde things smaller then?
21:51:15 <Pikka> they had double-ended Co-Co F units down south, so if I do a general aus set I can reuse the front shape.
21:51:45 <Pikka> our clydes were all hood units
21:52:03 <Pikka> the only full-width diesels we had here were EE units
21:52:42 <FLHerne_> Pikka: How is a set with that few vehicles meant to be interesting? :P
21:52:51 <Eddi|zuHause> cold cat is cold...
21:53:21 <andythenorth> modified to au loading gauge
21:53:52 <andythenorth> oh pineapple is localised :P
21:53:55 <Pikka> pineapple == queensland rail, 3'6" and UK loading gauge
21:54:09 <Pikka> <Pikka> they had double-ended Co-Co F units down south, so if I do a general aus set I can reuse the front shape.
21:54:10 <andythenorth> details details :)
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21:55:02 * andythenorth considers 10CC NG
21:56:07 <Pikka> 1953, they predate 37s by a bit :)
21:56:24 <Pikka> they looked even uglier before they got the sunvisor added
21:57:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: so, what are the design principles behind 10CC again?
22:02:33 *** LordAro has joined #openttd
22:05:35 <andythenorth> but he can speak for himself :)
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22:05:48 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v michi_cc
22:07:06 *** kormer936 is now known as kormer
22:07:19 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: if i were to reduce german engines to "100 years of development in 10 engines", i'd start with: P8, S3/6, 01, E18, E94, V200, 103, 132/232, 151, ICE1, ICE3 (yes, german trains go up to eleven :p)
22:08:21 * andythenorth was just thinking
22:08:30 <andythenorth> balancing HEQS was never a problem
22:08:36 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that doesn't specify the design goals
22:08:42 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: only some vague idea
22:08:48 <andythenorth> yeah, you need p*kka back for that :)
22:08:58 <andythenorth> HEQS has _some_ silly pointless vehicles that could be cut
22:09:06 <andythenorth> but none of them use real names
22:09:25 <andythenorth> and HEQS doesn't try to represent a region or country or company
22:10:21 <frosch123> i guess if you would have to reduce it to a single engine, it would be 103 :p
22:11:47 <frosch123> anyway, i think 111 is missing in your list
22:12:09 <Eddi|zuHause> there's about two dozen missing in my list :p
22:12:29 <frosch123> i guess 111 should be there instead of 151
22:12:30 <Eddi|zuHause> which is why i won't try to mimic 10CC in CETS ;o
22:13:02 <Eddi|zuHause> the "problem" with the 111 is that it is in almost all in-game modeled properties inferior to the 103
22:13:27 <andythenorth> what would happen if you took the model numbers off?
22:13:39 <andythenorth> and used approximations for real locomotives
22:13:45 <andythenorth> that fit specific gameplay niches?
22:13:52 <frosch123> it would no longer be cets
22:14:06 <frosch123> and nuts is already done
22:14:33 <Eddi|zuHause> CETS and NUTS have very similar design principles
22:14:41 <Eddi|zuHause> except for the "realism"
22:15:15 <andythenorth> 10CC makes more sense combined
22:15:27 <andythenorth> so set A might be heavily biased to electric power
22:15:49 <andythenorth> set B under-powered, cheap engines to be combined in multiple
22:15:52 <planetmaker> how's that specific to 10CC as opposed to existing sets?
22:16:03 <andythenorth> it's not specific to 10CC
22:16:14 <andythenorth> it's just the context where 10CC makes sense
22:16:20 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: P8 is a quite nice alround engine to start with, E94 and 151 are nice (electric) freight engines, as is 132/232 (diesel), the other are mostly express engines
22:16:58 <andythenorth> planetmaker: btw, how many engines in OpenGFX + Trains?
22:17:18 <planetmaker> one, two more than in TTD
22:18:15 <Eddi|zuHause> if you want to focus more on electrics, take out the S3/6 and put in the E16 instead
22:18:54 <andythenorth> planetmaker: when we played MP with OpenGFX + Trains, were we ever short of the right engine?
22:18:55 <Eddi|zuHause> then you have P8, 01, V200 and 132/232 as non-electric
22:19:19 <Eddi|zuHause> E16, E18, 103, ICE1, ICE3 as express electric
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22:19:30 <Eddi|zuHause> and E94, 151 as freight electric
22:19:31 <planetmaker> andythenorth, no. But that just proves that default engines are quite well-designed :D
22:19:42 <andythenorth> I count 9 conventional rail engines in that set :)
22:20:02 <Eddi|zuHause> but "focus on electric" might be better suited for a "swiss" set
22:20:09 <frosch123> andythenorth: that's silly. we play for 7 years
22:20:18 <Eddi|zuHause> as they have almost exclusively electrics
22:20:24 <andythenorth> frosch123: playing for 7 years is silly? o_O
22:20:30 <andythenorth> I take the point
22:20:44 <andythenorth> but no-one is proposing rm-ing the existing big sets?
22:20:47 <frosch123> ofc there are not many engines within 7 years
22:20:49 <andythenorth> unless they break Bananas ToS
22:21:32 <frosch123> unless you play with daylength factor 38919
22:22:45 <Eddi|zuHause> before you introduce daylength, you should make autosave based on real-time instead of game time
22:23:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. "every 2/5/15 minutes"
22:23:33 <andythenorth> is that daylength thread still running?
22:23:34 <planetmaker> except when paused?
22:23:39 <andythenorth> I've gone snow blind to it :P
22:23:51 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: especially when paused
22:23:54 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: i thought it should be based on number of user actions
22:24:40 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, "especially when paused" is something I explicitly would NOT want.
22:24:56 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: you can do lots of things with build-while-paused
22:25:00 <frosch123> planetmaker: you need it when playing with build in pause mode
22:25:06 <planetmaker> It will overwrite all meaningful savegames over night with the same. So then there'll be nothing to go back to when something went wrong or malicious action taken
22:25:14 <frosch123> but you do not want to autosave when leaving the computer on its own in pause
22:25:16 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: and also the scenario editor is "totally broken" because it has no autosave
22:25:25 <frosch123> so, the only sensible thing is to use "user action"
22:25:44 <frosch123> maybe coupling it with realtime
22:25:52 <frosch123> like: every 5 minutes, unless nothing was done
22:26:11 <andythenorth> see what you did? o_O
22:26:19 <frosch123> planetmaker: michi perfomed the same thing a while ago
22:26:21 <andythenorth> can you summon dalestan?
22:26:24 <frosch123> maybe something related to the bouncer
22:26:28 <Eddi|zuHause> server hiccup, i presume :)
22:27:02 <frosch123> don't worry, herzogdexter will return
22:27:56 <frosch123> i was already used to herzogdexter disconnecting when getting used to reading logs in 2007
22:28:23 <frosch123> i think he never said anything in those 6 years
22:29:01 <DorpsGek> LordAro: herzogdexter was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 6 weeks, 5 days, 23 hours, 28 minutes, and 59 seconds ago: <HerzogDeXtEr> Happy New Year
22:29:36 <frosch123> but seeing him disconnect makes me feel at home, or something like that :)
22:29:40 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: 10 bucks that this was an amsg :p
22:30:06 <LordAro> almost certainly, who else capitalises like that? :P
22:30:43 <andythenorth> if I say 'express freight' in notes for a ship, and cargo doesn't use express class
22:30:43 <Eddi|zuHause> no, something that gets posted to all channels.
22:30:48 <andythenorth> are people going to whine?
22:31:05 <frosch123> express freight for ships :p
22:31:07 <planetmaker> yes. They always whine
22:31:26 <andythenorth> some whine and make grfs
22:31:30 <andythenorth> some whine and then whine more
22:31:54 <planetmaker> yup. like that :-)
22:31:55 <frosch123> can i get an express packet delivery with hovercraft?
22:32:03 <frosch123> does dhl offer something like that?
22:32:22 <andythenorth> you can order petrol by mail, right?
22:32:49 <frosch123> they have hovercraft?
22:33:03 <planetmaker> hm... catemeran at least
22:33:09 <frosch123> can hovercraft climb norwegian mountains?
22:33:34 <frosch123> do hovercraft work in low pressure environments?
22:33:39 <frosch123> like mount everest?
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22:33:54 <frosch123> or do they not have enough propulsion?
22:34:13 <wojteks86> can someone please tell me what exactly is "Sling" in AV8 NewGRF?
22:34:24 <planetmaker> not sure, frosch123 :-)
22:35:16 <frosch123> hmm, i did not know that diesel was colour coded
22:35:21 <Eddi|zuHause> wojteks86: context?
22:35:34 <wojteks86> no idea, I dont use that set
22:35:43 <planetmaker> colour and smell-coded
22:35:50 <wojteks86> it just says Sling with no other words
22:36:00 <Eddi|zuHause> "sling" is usually something that you throw stones with
22:36:01 <andythenorth> see the wires to the cat underneath?
22:36:06 <andythenorth> wires / ropes / lines
22:36:47 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: red diesel is for heating and green diesel is for fuel
22:36:54 <wojteks86> thank you, but it may actually have something to do with aircraft colouring?
22:36:56 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: has to do with taxes
22:37:12 <wojteks86> (Company Coloured, Sling)
22:37:36 <Eddi|zuHause> wojteks86: that is a "cargo subtype" for refitting
22:37:42 <wojteks86> others are for example (Company Coloured, No tip tanks
22:38:03 <wojteks86> glad someone used that set
22:38:12 <wojteks86> planes are not my cop of tea
22:38:12 <andythenorth> I asked p*kka to include that feature :)
22:38:13 <Eddi|zuHause> wojteks86: those have nothing to do with each other
22:38:32 <wojteks86> Eddi, got it now ;)
22:39:03 <wojteks86> sorry, but this will be my 3rd translation today and I need a break :D
22:53:41 <Eddi|zuHause> (i don't think i did this the right way)
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23:31:00 <Pikka> Eddi|zuHause, there's more rules than just "10 locos" ;) but your list looks about right
23:32:50 * NGC3982 dances in a ravish pile on the floor
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23:44:00 <NGC3982> The Prodigy is my youth on a CD
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23:49:54 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: one could also swap the E18 for the E04 and the 01 for the 01.10, if that fits better with introduction dates
23:51:31 <Eddi|zuHause> although then maybe you should also introduce the E10 to fill the "gap" between the electrics
23:53:17 <Eddi|zuHause> (which means we're already at 12 engines)
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