IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-02-15
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06:48:41 <andythenorth> Pikka bonjour and pineapples
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07:06:17 <Supercheese> it's only 1907 :S
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07:16:50 <andythenorth> zellepins are awesome
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07:48:28 <Supercheese> zellepins? Kind of like terrapins, but not?
08:00:31 <Flygon> The best sort of Zepplin is one that goes 250km/h...
08:01:05 <Flygon> Frankly, we could have had those if the Heindenburg didn't accidentally catch fire >_>
08:01:26 <Supercheese> Nazis ruined everything :<
08:02:09 <Flygon> Technically, the lack of Helium ruine everything
08:02:22 <Flygon> On an even more technical level
08:02:29 <Flygon> WWI ruined everything...
08:02:39 <Supercheese> Why did the Hindenburg not have helium? Because the US had a monopoly and refused to give any to the Nazis because they were Nazis
08:02:44 <Supercheese> Ergo, Nazis ruined everything
08:02:53 <Flygon> God dammit Supercheese
08:02:58 <Flygon> Stop being so damn smart
08:03:03 <__ln__> Flygon: Hindenburg didn't burn because of the hydrogen.
08:03:25 <Flygon> __ln__: Didn't it burn due to unfavorable weather conditions?
08:03:31 <Pikka> there's a lot of pineapples about, andythenorth
08:03:39 <Flygon> It's my argument that hydrogen can be perfectly safe, if used properly
08:04:01 <andythenorth> Pikka zellepins are like pineapples
08:04:21 <andythenorth> new industry grf
08:04:25 <Pikka> spiky and grow out the top of other zellepins
08:04:29 <Pikka> and smell horrible in the field
08:06:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Factory Runs Until It Toesn't?
08:06:59 <Eddi|zuHause> ... i should probably not make jukes this early in the morning :p
08:09:43 <Pikka> planetmaker: now everyone's got it out of their system, move the thread to the spam bin :D
08:11:49 <andythenorth> I like the auto-delete content idea
08:11:55 <andythenorth> voting is definitely not gameable :)
08:12:10 <Supercheese> "GRF hidden due to low user-rating"
08:12:25 <andythenorth> yeah, writing scripts that hit the voting API is very hard
08:13:03 * andythenorth wishes people would stop being dicks about Simuscape
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08:13:17 <andythenorth> I suppose me pm-ing squire james to say he's being a dick, that's wrong
08:13:17 <Eddi|zuHause> ... i said it should be HIDDEN (not deleted) BY DEFAULT (i.e. the filter can be deactivated)
08:13:27 <Pikka> people love being dicks about anything, andythenorth
08:13:35 <Pikka> if they don't have something at the moment, they'll find something
08:13:46 <andythenorth> can't they go build castles?
08:15:27 <andythenorth> I didn't do anything
08:15:36 <andythenorth> for good reasons
08:15:55 <andythenorth> ugh andythenorth as mod
08:16:08 <Pikka> I think it would be great
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08:23:30 <andythenorth> Pikka: what ratio pax : mail
08:23:42 <andythenorth> got a ferry 100 pax or 25t freight
08:26:21 <Pikka> 25 freight as in express, goods and such? seems a little low
08:26:40 <Pikka> I'd have said 100 pax, 80 mail or 50 goods
08:26:47 <andythenorth> could be a point
08:26:52 <andythenorth> I'm cheating for game balance
08:27:04 <andythenorth> the cows don't fit on the ferry seats very well :)
08:27:20 <Pikka> I thought you weren't putting freight in ferries anyway
08:28:15 <andythenorth> they fill size gaps :P
08:28:23 <andythenorth> expensively, but nobody cares about that
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09:05:40 <andythenorth> no Banananas on Banannanas
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09:06:02 <planetmaker> and especially no chips in CHIPS!
09:07:10 <Eddi|zuHause> "A meteorite caused hundreds of injuries in russia"
09:17:21 <Twofish> Crazy that it makes those shadows...
09:18:48 <planetmaker> that's no shadow, Twofish. That's a camera set on auto-gain
09:19:27 <planetmaker> brightness adjustment always has a lag wrt the actual images
09:19:33 <Twofish> look at the lightpole shadows
09:20:02 <planetmaker> yes, it casts a bright light. But I referred to the overall brightness flickering
09:20:18 <Eddi|zuHause> there was a story about an american military plane that had a "thunderstorm" button
09:20:36 <Eddi|zuHause> no, it could not deploy thunderstorms as a weapon
09:21:14 <Eddi|zuHause> it disabled the automatic brightness adaption in the cockpit, because in a thunderstorm with quick brightness changes, it was useless and further distracting
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09:23:47 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: :o
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09:32:46 <andythenorth> Pikka: I might make a grf that just tells jokes
09:32:52 <andythenorth> know any good jokes?
09:33:13 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: should be a gamescript.
09:33:47 <andythenorth> I might make !!Kittens.grf
09:33:56 <andythenorth> it just links to kitten picture of the day
09:34:57 <andythenorth> I should do work
09:35:06 <andythenorth> and stop arsing about
09:35:22 <andythenorth> oh, Australia has been buying things from me
09:40:57 <Eddi|zuHause> work is overrated
09:51:45 <andythenorth> so 100 pax, 80 mail
09:51:50 <andythenorth> mailbags can go on seats
09:52:17 <andythenorth> what sizes mail ship are needed
09:52:37 <andythenorth> currently the step would be 24 -> 80 -> lots
09:52:56 <peter1138> should i put another pot of coffee on?
09:54:14 <planetmaker> of course. Coffee is never wrong
09:54:20 * planetmaker makes tea now, though
09:55:36 <peter1138> i don't think i could handle that much coffee
09:57:25 <andythenorth> just have small ones
09:57:34 <andythenorth> Pikka: you want a 20000 mailbag ship?
09:57:39 <andythenorth> are you insane? o_O
09:57:51 <Pikka> I'm just asking what size you mean by "lots" :)
09:58:13 <andythenorth> well lots of ships can carry mail
09:58:23 <planetmaker> 24, 80, 300, 1500
09:58:25 <andythenorth> maybe up to about 1200 bags
09:58:52 <Pikka> 24 -> 80 -> morethan80 sounds like a decent scale to me :)
09:58:52 <andythenorth> mostly you only care at the small end
09:59:03 <Pikka> definitely don't need any more between 24 and 80, or less than 24.
09:59:08 <andythenorth> optimising matters for small towns and routes that don't make much money
09:59:14 <andythenorth> optimising is blah for big routes
10:00:46 <andythenorth> wonder if I could patch multiple ship holds
10:07:01 <Pikka> articulated ships, andy
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10:51:23 <Pikka> if this happened in america, all the videos would be full of people screaming "OH MAA GAAAAAWDDDDDDDD"
10:51:35 <Pikka> russians just say "eh, meteorite"
10:54:55 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a comment like "this is fake, there are thousands of videos on youtube where cars or jets crash into houses"
10:55:39 <peter1138> but is "content" different from content?
10:55:58 <Eddi|zuHause> same way as "realism" is different from realism?
10:56:32 <peter1138> are "waypoints" different from waypoints?
10:56:56 <peter1138> is ' different from ` ?
10:57:14 <peter1138> (not for some germans :D)
10:59:30 <planetmaker> try to use it synonymous in bash, peter1138 ;-)
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11:01:46 <DorpsGek> Commit by matthijs :: r25002 trunk/src/video/sdl_v.cpp (2013-02-15 11:01:43 UTC)
11:01:47 <DorpsGek> -Doc: [SDL] Fix typo in comment.
11:01:52 <DorpsGek> Commit by matthijs :: r25003 trunk/src/video/sdl_v.cpp (2013-02-15 11:01:45 UTC)
11:01:53 <DorpsGek> -Fix (r24993): [SDL] Keep a flag to remember if a hardware palette was requested.
11:01:54 <DorpsGek> - Previously, the code would query the SDL_HWPALETTE flag, which doesn't always match the requested value.
11:01:55 <DorpsGek> - This would cause SDL to be restarted on every window resize event, effectively breaking resizing.
11:02:49 <Eddi|zuHause> so that's what the black borders after resizing were about?
11:03:12 <peter1138> what black borders? :p
11:30:22 <Pikka> jonty-comp: better than locking it, move it to the spam bin and then if anyone asks what happened to it, deny it ever existed. :)
11:32:56 * jonty-comp hasn't locked a topic in years
11:35:02 * Pikka bed, early start tomorrow
11:35:17 <jonty-comp> you crazy upside-downs
11:36:18 <Pikka> although, often, my personal timekeeping and the diurnal cycle only coincidentally coincide. :)
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11:36:57 <Eddi|zuHause> people should use the 28 hour day more often :p
11:39:35 <andythenorth> would be useful with babies
11:39:43 <andythenorth> more time to have a life
11:41:36 <andythenorth> or argue on the internet
11:42:05 <peter1138> now i can't read people winding each other up :(
11:42:24 <andythenorth> may I recommend the BBC Have Your Say section?
11:42:43 <andythenorth> ever thought of doing shadow-ships?
11:42:49 <peter1138> doesn't count if it's something random :p
11:44:33 <andythenorth> can we keep cargo in smoke?
11:44:37 <andythenorth> it might...disappear
11:45:02 <andythenorth> I suppose making ships carry fuel would be really really tedious?
11:45:20 <andythenorth> ship range would smell
11:47:49 <jonty-comp> i might unlock it again
11:48:12 <andythenorth> can you retitle it blah blah blah please
11:48:15 <jonty-comp> but now i have to do actual work :(
11:48:27 <andythenorth> unlock it later :P
11:48:28 <peter1138> argue with mb instead
11:48:41 <jonty-comp> no, that's like trying to argue with a brick wall
11:48:54 <andythenorth> Michael doesn't usually produce walls of text
11:48:59 <andythenorth> walls of text are a bad sign
11:49:03 <peter1138> looks like arguing with kamnet is like a brick wall
11:49:19 <jonty-comp> he is just a brick wall regardless of arguments
11:49:21 <peter1138> gotta love his way of dismissing arguments
11:49:55 <jonty-comp> he follows the dave worley practice of winning arguments - ignore the bits that you can't answer + overwhelming self-confidence :P
11:50:04 <jonty-comp> anyway, at least this work i am doing is fun audio mastering
11:50:10 <V453000> The most significant byte (RR) is reserved and must be and-masked out. what does this mean?
11:50:14 <andythenorth> can I have my own argument with squire james?
11:50:45 <peter1138> it's means it's not currently used
11:50:52 <andythenorth> so don't try and read it
11:50:53 <V453000> I simply didnt include the 0xRR and it seems to have compiled
11:50:55 <andythenorth> might get used in future
11:51:03 <andythenorth> it will compile either way
11:51:10 <andythenorth> but your grf might suddenly break one day
11:51:25 <andythenorth> if that byte is used
11:51:30 <peter1138> some authors have a habit of assuming all reversed bits will always be zero
11:51:34 <V453000> well it shouted syntax error with 0xRR
11:52:19 <peter1138> well that's not a hex value
11:54:50 <V453000> hm apparently it doesnt quite work
11:55:15 <V453000> if it is "TT" does it mean I should use 01 instead of 1, right?
11:55:38 <peter1138> you have to mask the bits you want
11:55:54 <peter1138> surprising for nml to be honest
11:56:11 <jonty-comp> and lo, the first track i master today is someone doing a smooth jazz cover of the pokémon theme
11:56:43 <peter1138> ((extra_callback_info2 >> 16) & 0xFF) will give you TT as values from 0-255
11:56:54 <peter1138> assuming nml supports that syntax
11:58:18 <V453000> hm unexpected token {
12:00:36 <planetmaker> V453000, value = variable & 0x00FFFFFF
12:00:43 <planetmaker> if the variable is 4 byte long
12:01:01 <planetmaker> then continue to use value in your analysis of the result which is of actual interest
12:01:11 <planetmaker> or in a switch statement like
12:01:51 <planetmaker> switch (FEAT_RAILTYPE, SELF, blablaswitch, variable & 0x00FFFFFF) { 0: thisswitch; 1: anotherswitch; }
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12:02:34 <V453000> so I inspect TT, SS, or whatever one at a time?
12:04:10 <planetmaker> right... you likely only want to inspect one of 0xRRTTVVSS at a time:
12:04:40 <planetmaker> ((extra_callback_info2 & 0x00FF0000) >> 16) for TT
12:04:58 <planetmaker> ((extra_callback_info2 & 0x0000FF00) >> 8) for VV
12:05:10 <planetmaker> (extra_callback_info2 & 0x000000FF) for SS
12:06:02 <V453000> I understand it now :) hopefully
12:06:07 <V453000> lets see what it does
12:08:12 <planetmaker> actually... you should rather do ((extra_callback_info2 & 0x00000100) >> 8) for VV - the other bits there are also reserved ;-)
12:08:24 <planetmaker> though... only values. not bits
12:08:52 <planetmaker> thus do something useful error-wise if the value is not 0 or 1 for VV :-)
12:09:17 <planetmaker> I'd just ignore that, though :D
12:09:39 <V453000> I am starting to hate computers
12:11:30 <peter1138> planetmaker, does it need to be the opposite way around to what i said then?
12:12:08 <planetmaker> peter1138, your way is equally fine. I didn't read back fully. sorry
12:17:37 <V453000> only the basic block signal seems to show :s
12:17:49 <planetmaker> fuck... bad gateway :S
12:18:33 <planetmaker> solved... the old cookie problem
12:18:41 <peter1138> you haven't shifted
12:18:56 <peter1138> & 0x000000FF is unnecessary
12:19:30 <planetmaker> but using 0x000000FF is - from my POV - nicer when you know that you deal with 4 bytes
12:20:03 <planetmaker> (extra_callback_info2 >> 16) & 0x00FF0000
12:20:33 <planetmaker> (extra_callback_info2 >> 16) & 0x000000FF or (extra_callback_info2 & 0x00FF0000) >> 16
12:22:02 <peter1138> GB(extra_callback_info2, 16, 8) ;)
12:22:28 <peter1138> any idea why this isn't nmlised anyway?
12:23:50 <V453000> (extra_callback_info2 >> 16) & 0x000000FF is for the last two, right? SS
12:23:53 <planetmaker> callbacks are difficult to NML-ize. It might need special variable names for that. like cb_XXX where XXX is the actual thing which we just typed here
12:24:14 <planetmaker> that's not for the last two. for 0x00XX0000
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12:24:33 <V453000> ._.can I ask why is it at the end then ? :D
12:24:44 <planetmaker> the >>16 shifts the variable 16 bits to the right
12:25:00 <planetmaker> and only then the bitmask is applied. At a time where the XX is already at the end
12:26:57 <planetmaker> no. TT = (extra_callback_info2 & 0x00FF0000) >> 16
12:30:05 <peter1138> in ottd shift is applied before mask, so i'd do it that way
12:30:21 <peter1138> dunno what magic stuff nml does :p
12:33:20 <V453000> LOL and I mixed it all up together :DD
12:35:11 <V453000> right ... only strange thing is that I have all signals red instead of green
12:36:46 <V453000> the wiki says 0 is red, is that surely correct?
12:39:18 <V453000> im sure that spritesets which say green are green
12:39:36 <peter1138> you've shifted EVERYTHING 16 bits
12:39:55 <peter1138> only TT needs to be shifted 16 bits
12:39:58 <V453000> either way the signals are perma red :)
12:39:59 <peter1138> VV needs to be shifted 8 bits
12:40:04 <peter1138> and SS doesn't need to be shifted
12:40:10 <V453000> thats waht I thought :D ok
12:40:34 <V453000> but the 0x00FFbla things stay as I have them now, right?
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12:43:36 <V453000> I cant say I know what I coded, but it works :D all that matters for me
12:43:58 <V453000> now to get offsets sorted out and draw proper signals :)
12:44:07 <andythenorth> V453000: that's how my code works too :P
12:44:26 <V453000> I mean at least in the end when I have it done I usually understand it
12:44:58 <V453000> all I know that an evil 0x00000000000000 caterpillar can be mutated by evil >> bla
12:59:13 <andythenorth> have the "something must be done" guys
12:59:19 <andythenorth> read the ToS? o_O
13:01:53 <andythenorth> is it lunch time?
13:02:08 <jonty-comp> a much more important question
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13:09:15 <Eddi|zuHause> well, did somebody have a link to the ToS?
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13:32:41 <andythenorth> there's nothing in ToS that confers any rights on uploader
13:32:46 <andythenorth> so admins can delete wtf they want
13:32:50 <andythenorth> which was already known
13:33:51 <Looser> Hi. Who do I have to ask to get a permission for lets play videos?
13:34:08 <andythenorth> ho hall of fame thread has gone bad too
13:34:14 <andythenorth> jonty-comp: you are doing a nice job :)
13:37:15 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: so, what has the GRF-ID thing have to do with anything?
13:39:18 <Looser> Noone here who can answer my question?
13:39:48 <Eddi|zuHause> Looser: why do you think you need permission for anything?
13:41:35 <Looser> Eddi|zuHause: Copyright?!
13:41:57 <Eddi|zuHause> Looser: in which country?
13:42:18 <Eddi|zuHause> there is a different copyright in every country
13:43:07 <Looser> youtube has ONE rule for intelectual property.
13:43:41 <Eddi|zuHause> one rule to intellect them all!
13:44:33 <Looser> Eddi|zuHause: Open source does not mean that everyone has the right to use it without conditions.
13:45:02 <Eddi|zuHause> that is true, but the conditions you can read in the license...
13:45:56 <Eddi|zuHause> plus, copyright has options of "fair use" and similar, where you can do things which are not covered by the license
13:46:12 <Eddi|zuHause> but these rules differ in every country
13:46:40 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, one of the points these iGRF break is to spam also the ingame lists with double (or in BKTunnels case) even tripple entries. Using always the same grfID prevents that
13:46:55 <planetmaker> just assuming we allow such advertisement / spam NewGRFs on bananas
13:47:56 <planetmaker> Looser, no single person owns the copyright on OpenTTD, its base sets nor its extensions like ai, game scripts, newgrfs or similar
13:48:13 <planetmaker> so no single person could grant you permission other than "read the license and obey it"
13:48:17 <planetmaker> or rather "licenses"
13:48:39 <planetmaker> Most notably the sound set is NOT GPL-licensed. Nor can you generally expect that of NewGRFs
13:49:28 <planetmaker> that said, I personally see no breach in anyone's right, if you make a movie which shows you or others playing OpenTTD
13:55:07 <jonty-comp> andythenorth: why thanks
13:55:15 <jonty-comp> i post because i have nothing better to do this week :P
13:55:58 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but i think you're arguing a small detail when a much bigger picture is being discussed
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14:07:28 <planetmaker> that is true, Eddi|zuHause. I'm aware of that :-)
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15:29:32 <Eddi|zuHause> "An 'Apple Shop' in Norfolk (England) has announced it is changing its name, because increasingly more people demand devices instead of fruits"
15:33:23 <andythenorth> the same will happen to banana shops one day
15:33:27 <andythenorth> people will go in and ask for newgrfs
15:34:20 <planetmaker> I wonder what will happen to nogo areas? do people expect game scripts there? :-)
15:36:53 <andythenorth> for threads where some stupid slagging of simuscape happens, would tt-forums mods consider simply moving it to off-topic?
15:36:59 <andythenorth> as it's not helpful
15:37:11 <andythenorth> it reveals a side of people in the community that I don't like at al
15:37:22 <andythenorth> and makes me 50% tempted to go to simuscape
15:40:04 <Eddi|zuHause> YOU HERETIC! GET OUT OF HERE!
15:40:59 <V453000> well, what is tt-forums or simuscape for anyway ... just a forum
15:41:16 <V453000> im on both but involved in neither
15:41:26 <V453000> writing shit here and there
15:41:31 <Eddi|zuHause> you must at the same time leave the devzone, remove all stuff from bananas, and change the licenses to proprietary
15:41:38 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: for why?
15:41:53 <Eddi|zuHause> and while at it, include DRM that rootkits everybodys computer
15:42:29 <Eddi|zuHause> just because you must assume that they use stuff that you don't want them to use
15:43:34 <andythenorth> or because I want to sell you to spammers
15:43:45 <V453000> uhmmm isnt simuscape just another forum?
15:43:58 <SpComb> V453000: community, big difference
15:44:02 <V453000> stupidly closed out, but still
15:44:16 <andythenorth> V453000: so when I say 'go to', I mean move the dev / release threads for my grfs
15:44:37 <V453000> how productive are those threads anyway
15:44:54 <andythenorth> I don't mean 'flounce off in a big huff, and throw away my login and remove all my posts and images'
15:45:03 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: to do that, you must change the content of all your posts on the forum by "..."
15:45:33 <V453000> idk why does anyone remove that
15:45:53 <V453000> looks like massive overreaction and attention whoring to me
15:45:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know that either, but apparently it still happened
15:46:01 <jonty-comp> i think it would be better to spam-bin any such posts, rather than move them to off-topic :p
15:46:10 <andythenorth> one or the other
15:46:13 <jonty-comp> bin them and also give the perpetrators a good slap
15:46:21 <V453000> I have to admit that simuscape seems relatively productive in what they do, in how they solve issues and help each other
15:46:28 <andythenorth> they are a nice place
15:46:33 <andythenorth> full of people who just want to be nice
15:46:49 <jonty-comp> everyone is nice in a different way
15:46:51 <planetmaker> sounds awesome. I wonder why it doesn't show
15:47:01 <andythenorth> it's perplexing that some paranoid fuckheads in tt-forums think that 'simuscape people are out to sabotage everything'
15:47:02 <jonty-comp> and it seems the tt-f way of nice doesn't agree with the simuscape way of nice
15:47:32 <peter1138> andythenorth, i don't think they do
15:47:51 <V453000> planetmaker: perhaps because their content is idiotically unacessible? :D
15:47:54 <peter1138> andythenorth, it seems to be simupeople think that ttpeople think that simupeople... etc etc
15:48:00 <andythenorth> maybe I am too paranoid
15:48:22 <andythenorth> both are possible
15:48:32 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i said pretty much that, but then the post magically disappeared from the thread
15:48:53 <jonty-comp> if this is like the cold war, which forum can be america and which can be the soviet union? :D
15:49:30 <Eddi|zuHause> jonty-comp: maybe it's iran and israel instead?
15:49:35 <planetmaker> andythenorth, you moan a lot. And do a lot to keep the fire burning. In every single such thread
15:49:47 <jonty-comp> i'm not up on my middle-eastern politics as much though
15:51:02 <andythenorth> maybe it's just simuscape and tt-forums
15:51:04 <Eddi|zuHause> jonty-comp: well basically iran is like "we want to be the major force in the region" and israel is like "everybody out there is evil and wants to get us"
15:51:53 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, a number of postings from that thread was just moved to the spam bin... it started to get personal
15:52:07 <planetmaker> in an ugly fashion
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15:53:32 <jonty-comp> at least it seems to be doing more productive things now
16:00:16 <andythenorth> some interesting simuscape projects
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17:03:23 <Eddi|zuHause> btw: how long until the court of human rights rules that CAPTCHAs are discriminating?
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17:18:31 <lolek1> i've got a question i'm trying to play a little with openttd, i've got version: 1.1.4 (ubuntu repo), i've some trains vehicles, and now i need to replace old vehicles. The vehicles are in groups the groups contains only buses, the problem is after i open replace vehicle list the right list is.. empty ... any idea what's wrong ?
17:20:28 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: discriminating on which of the many possible bases?
17:21:06 <Eddi|zuHause> "computers are human, too"
17:21:12 <V453000> that it is fucking annoying and 80% of the time I get letters wrong
17:22:17 <Eddi|zuHause> ... i just find it fucking annoying that i solved like 5 of their CAPTCHAs, but never actually signed up there...
17:25:56 <Pinkbeast> lolek: Are you trying to replace vehicles because they are old and worn-out, or with vehicles of a different type?
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17:26:16 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: people coming to other forums and asking "i can't solve this captcha, please help"
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17:34:42 <lolek1> Pinkbeast: well i need to replace cause they'r old
17:35:45 <oftcrash> good afternoon/morning/evening... I'm on my first bananas upload - I'm tarring up the files, but should I not gzip them as well?
17:36:09 <Pinkbeast> Right, but are you trying to change the types at the same time? If not, autorenew will take care of it.
17:36:13 <oftcrash> and it really has content in it :)
17:36:29 <planetmaker> oftcrash, you can zip it. But it's not required
17:36:35 <Pinkbeast> If so, a screenshot of the interface where you are having the problem would be informative.
17:36:37 <lolek1> Pinkbeast: well no, i don't want to change type
17:36:40 <planetmaker> you can also just zip it w/o using tar
17:36:47 <lolek1> Pinkbeast: hmm ok, give me a minute
17:36:55 <Pinkbeast> In that case just check autorenew is switched on and it will happen automagically.
17:37:41 <lolek1> well i've read about autorenew but i'd like to do i t by hand for the first time
17:37:42 <oftcrash> I have the license and readme with it, so I need to package it. I don't mind tarring, just wondering if it should be gzipped. I tried it that way out of habit, but it didn't show in my grf list
17:37:51 <lolek1> ok i did a screenshot but where it is located?
17:38:09 <Pinkbeast> lolek: Since you have not said which OS you are on, am I right in assuming you use Windows?
17:38:52 <Pinkbeast> Huh, I thought only Windows users did that.
17:39:17 <lolek1> well i'm the exception that acknowledge the rule ;)
17:39:23 <Pinkbeast> Probably ~/.openttd
17:40:30 <planetmaker> oftcrash, bananas will anyway unpackage it and re-package it. So, it's just a matter of upload speed
17:40:46 <planetmaker> And frankly, uploads to bananas don't contribute significantly to *our* bandwidth
17:41:05 <oftcrash> ah ok - its town names, so its very small
17:41:25 <Pinkbeast> lolek: Ah. This is very early in the game - is there actually any other available bus type?
17:41:25 <lolek1> Pinkbeast: the right pane of replace read vehicle window is empty
17:41:39 <Pinkbeast> Wait, it's 1964, hm...
17:41:48 <planetmaker> might be different, if everyone created something like zBase :-)
17:42:01 <Pinkbeast> OK; you'd expect that if there is only one road vehicle type that carries passengers.
17:42:19 <Pinkbeast> Since the autoreplace window is intended for changing types.
17:42:43 <lolek1> so i don't have the posibility to change it by group ?
17:42:54 <lolek1> only autorenew option or manually ?
17:43:01 <Pinkbeast> You could change it by group, yes - but only when there's something to change it _to_.
17:43:48 <Pinkbeast> If you want to replace all the vehicles in a group and they all have the same orders, I would order them all to depot, Ctrl-click-clone a set of new ones, and sell the old ones.
17:44:18 <lolek1> ok, i've turned on the autorenew option
17:44:24 <Pinkbeast> So you want to replace your oldest busses with busses of the same type but they are not yet due for autorenew?
17:44:39 <lolek1> well i've got autorenew disabled
17:44:56 <lolek1> so i wanted to do it by hand but not one by one, but just groups
17:45:19 <lolek1> i thought the replace road vehicle was made for that but i see now it's only for upgrade
17:45:31 <lolek1> it would be great if the replace road vehicle would allow that
17:45:33 <Pinkbeast> You can control when autorenew kicks in, but beyond that this isn't really a thing you can do.
17:46:43 <Pinkbeast> I infer you're using default vehicles from the A4 pulling five coal wagons in the background. Poor Gresley's spinning in his grave. :-)
17:47:46 <aditsu> hi, can I play a multiplayer game through a proxy or tunnel?
17:49:29 <planetmaker> you'll need to proxy and tunnel the proper ports...
17:49:33 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
17:52:33 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: paying :)
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17:56:21 <andythenorth> if download income > upload cost
17:56:30 <andythenorth> if download income < upload cost
17:59:30 <planetmaker> andythenorth, sounds like the business model of Elsevier
18:00:32 <planetmaker> 30% earnings on turn-over amount
18:01:09 <andythenorth> the only puzzle is how to set the price
18:02:33 <planetmaker> starting at 30e for single download. If you make an abo, you can get away with 300€ yearly. sounds fair? Upload 500€
18:03:12 <andythenorth> would I pay 500€ per grf?
18:03:59 <andythenorth> how much would you charge downloaders?
18:04:33 <andythenorth> assume an optimistic 1% conversion rate
18:04:40 <andythenorth> 223k FIRS downloads
18:05:08 <planetmaker> andythenorth, does the 30ct include updates?
18:05:18 <andythenorth> @calc 2230 * .30
18:05:28 <andythenorth> ok, I'm in profit on 500€
18:05:33 <andythenorth> I / me / us / you
18:05:34 <planetmaker> then it spoils the release early, release often thing :-)
18:05:42 <planetmaker> or actually vice versa. depends
18:05:55 <andythenorth> I think 1% is optimistic though
18:06:13 <andythenorth> probably 0.1% might be more realistic
18:07:05 <andythenorth> so would you pay 30ct for an advertising grf?
18:08:48 <Eddi|zuHause> how many people are paying for the "HDplus" astra package? (the HD channels of advertisment-funded TV programs that are "free" in the SD-version)
18:08:57 <andythenorth> it bugs me that I pay for sky
18:09:09 <andythenorth> but Nickolodeon still shows ads every 10-15mins
18:09:15 <andythenorth> which my toddler hates
18:09:30 <andythenorth> but I digress, and I am a grumpy old man
18:09:47 <oftcrash> Hmm, you gave me an idea. A town name grf where all the names are sponsored. "Bob's Bar & Grill West" "St. Coca-Cola" Is that advertising?
18:09:59 <andythenorth> I want to make a grf that shows actual real adverts
18:10:47 <oftcrash> Ikea in every town...
18:11:04 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: a fully functional FIRS version with all industry graphics replaced with "pay me 50¢ to remove these ads and get real graphics"
18:11:43 <Eddi|zuHause> oftcrash: SAC has an ikea grf :)
18:11:46 <Pinkbeast> "This is the age of the Pikka train."
18:12:00 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I like your idea
18:12:07 <andythenorth> 'click here to play'
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18:13:01 <andythenorth> paypal | visa | mastercard
18:13:20 <Pinkbeast> Nah, you want to nickel-and-dime people with micropayments. "This industry will increase production in three months. Click here to pay 25 tokens to increase it immediately."
18:14:42 <oftcrash> Eddi: yeah, I pretty much only play with Swedish Towns now - it cracks me up.
18:15:14 <Pinkbeast> "Livestockfarmville"
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18:20:19 <Eddi|zuHause> you are not fjb :)
18:20:55 <oftcrash> I feel so accomplished - my first newgrf published to bananas :)
18:22:23 <jonty-comp> does it contain graphics?
18:22:32 <oftcrash> no, I'm not particularly arty
18:22:39 <oftcrash> its martian town names
18:22:55 <oftcrash> I wanted better names while I work on martian industry
18:23:24 <oftcrash> should I bother with a release thread in the forum for the town names?
18:23:45 <planetmaker> that's your choice. It definitely is not needed
18:23:51 <Eddi|zuHause> yay, another "white text on white background" post that you people so like ;)
18:23:59 <planetmaker> but would give users an easy place to give feedback
18:24:21 <oftcrash> I linked up the dev thread about it - seems liek bugs end up getting reported in both locations
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18:45:44 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25004 /trunk/src/lang (7 files) (2013-02-15 18:45:34 UTC)
18:45:45 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:46 <DorpsGek> finnish - 4 changes by jpx_
18:45:47 <DorpsGek> german - 4 changes by planetmaker
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18:45:48 <DorpsGek> greek - 108 changes by Evropi
18:45:49 <DorpsGek> italian - 4 changes by lorenzodv
18:45:50 <DorpsGek> japanese - 3 changes by Aknuth
18:45:51 <DorpsGek> korean - 4 changes by telk5093
18:45:52 <DorpsGek> serbian - 9 changes by ivan_mile
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18:48:09 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
18:59:08 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: it's kind of hard to stop with this issue eh? :P
19:01:57 <frosch123> is it allowed to ask an naive question in the bananas topic?
19:02:09 <FLHerne> andythenorth: The stupid bananas issue?
19:02:21 <andythenorth> frosch123: eh why not
19:02:28 * FLHerne finds it an interesting argument :-)
19:02:35 <andythenorth> frosch123: check the ToS first though
19:02:38 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: it can only be a bad idea :p
19:02:41 <andythenorth> FLHerne: only interesting like car crashes
19:03:07 <andythenorth> FLHerne: one thing about car crashes is, sometimes it becomes obvious whats going to happen a long time before it happens
19:03:12 <andythenorth> which is what happened here :P
19:03:51 <Supercheese> Well, I didn't see it coming at first
19:04:07 <Supercheese> I even figured it wasn't that bad of idea when I first saw the post at Simuscape
19:04:11 <frosch123> what would happen if i post something like: "all posts in this topic state either "igrf should be banned" or "why bother". is anyone of the opinion that igrf are an enrichment?
19:04:20 <Supercheese> then everybody and their dog starts hatin' on it
19:04:35 <andythenorth> it's a nice hack
19:04:44 <FLHerne> frosch123: Kamnet (and OzTrans by proxy) would argue at you :D
19:04:48 <Alberth> frosch123: start a poll :)
19:04:52 <FLHerne> And that would be interesting :-)
19:04:55 <andythenorth> technically, it's neat. Socially it's toxic
19:04:57 <Pinkbeast> frosch: I don't think it would help (alas)
19:04:58 <Supercheese> I figured it was marginally better than having no information at all
19:05:03 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: kamnet was trying to make an argument on behalf of "the other side", but i'm not sure i understood his point
19:05:07 <Supercheese> but according to everybody else, nope
19:07:09 <andythenorth> Supercheese: so (repeating case). (Some) players are known to have an issue. Finding and installing content is tricky, confusing, scary. Discovering it, downloading it, figuring out where to put it. Causes issues. Bananas solves that.
19:07:32 <andythenorth> Now. We start putting grfs on bananas that return us to the previous situation, except discovering is marginally easier
19:07:56 <Supercheese> it's already clear these fools won't use Bananas
19:08:08 <Supercheese> so I thought a marginal improvement is better than no improvement at all
19:08:11 <planetmaker> nor the required support
19:08:15 <andythenorth> so if you accept that Bananas meets that purpose, then it's a bit poor show to start reintroducing the issue
19:08:31 <andythenorth> if you don't accept the purpose of bananas is that, then you won't see the problem
19:08:36 <Pinkbeast> I don't think it's a marginal improvement because it's not worth fucking up the utility of Bananas for one GRF
19:08:41 <FLHerne> Supercheese: It isn't, because it removes the consistent simplicity from Bananas
19:08:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i think there are two separable problems here: problem one is a pointless GRF that wastes everybody's disk space, processing power and bandwidth, and the other is the "referring to other download locations"
19:09:05 <andythenorth> ony two problems?
19:09:07 <Supercheese> I'd be perfectly fine with permabanning iGRFs and those who would make them, don't get me wrong
19:09:08 <andythenorth> I see at least 5
19:09:19 <andythenorth> there may even be 7 problems
19:09:31 <Supercheese> To me, it makes zero difference
19:09:42 <andythenorth> frosch123 mostly right
19:09:42 <Eddi|zuHause> problem one is a no-brainer, just remove it... problem two could be solved by people actually talking to each other. maybe bananas can have a mode "this GRF exists, but it can't be downloaded here"
19:09:54 <Supercheese> I'll use Bananas and wherever else
19:10:11 <Supercheese> and TBPH, I don't care that much about random users who can't install grfs manually :P
19:10:23 <planetmaker> forums and IRC are not for talking. Just for exchanging pre-fab opinions
19:10:33 <Eddi|zuHause> then people trying to join servers and stuff would get a "this can't be downloaded here, but try this link"
19:10:54 <Eddi|zuHause> without any stupid dummy grf that serves no purpose at all
19:10:58 <FLHerne> planetmaker: IRC not always. Forums definitely, though :D
19:10:58 <Supercheese> I'll try to make it easy for them by uploading my own GRFs to Bananas, of course
19:12:07 <frosch123> we could add a "search in grfcrawler" button in ottd
19:12:29 <frosch123> unless there is a dicussion every year that grfcrawler will be discontinued :p
19:12:45 <Supercheese> grfcrawler should be the #2 go-to place for searching for content, IMO
19:12:49 <andythenorth> can we register openttd as a simuscape user?
19:12:50 <Supercheese> right after Bananas
19:13:14 <Supercheese> even before the forums, since grfcrawler links all over
19:13:30 <Supercheese> and directly links, rather than bothering with search functions
19:13:52 * Pinkbeast is catching up and Christ, who are these Simuscape clowns?
19:14:05 <Supercheese> Fools who won't use Bananas
19:14:07 <andythenorth> they're people with names
19:14:22 <Supercheese> created their own site to host their stuff, require registration to even view threads
19:14:36 <Supercheese> of course, they actually can produce nice grfs
19:14:39 <Supercheese> which is the problem
19:14:48 <andythenorth> I am an active contributor on simuscape
19:14:57 <Supercheese> If they weren't capable, nobody would care :P
19:15:03 <Pinkbeast> What, is FIRS going behind a paywall or something?
19:15:09 <andythenorth> so if anyone wants to continue the 'us and them' debate, please take it up with me
19:15:14 <FLHerne> Supercheese: They're not fools for avoiding Bananas - that's fine. It's the 'abusing Bananas while avoiding actually using it' that annoys me...
19:15:21 <Supercheese> andythenorth: I have more posts on Simuscape than you :D
19:15:42 <andythenorth> Supercheese: that's resolvable :P
19:16:10 <Pinkbeast> "Not only is it the 'Official Download Location' for all Canadian related graphics files for both TTDPatch and OpenTTD;" # I seriously doubt that, I wasn't aware the Governor-General even had an opinion on the issue
19:16:34 <Supercheese> FLHerne: yes, and other reasons as well
19:16:53 <oftcrash> I hadn't intended to start a flame war when I posted the original comment - I didn't have enough history with the forums to realize the vitriol that would arise, at least not until I went back and read a few older threads.
19:16:57 <andythenorth> I've seen at least as many fools on tt-forums
19:17:47 <FLHerne> andythenorth: There does seem to be correlation between Simuscape and those who dislike Bananas, though :P
19:17:48 <Supercheese> Perhaps it's the trend of making major releases on April Fool's
19:18:40 <planetmaker> I mostly see a correlation between "evil devs" opinion and simuscape
19:18:48 <oftcrash> Is there a compromise solution - leave the one iGRF on bananas unless the author wants to remove it (one time deal), then amend the upload policy to explicitly require that newgrfs, or any other download I guess, have in-game playability or something like that?
19:19:10 <Supercheese> What if I released my "NewGRF List Separators" on Bananas?
19:19:13 <Supercheese> Those have no playability
19:19:27 <Pinkbeast> oftcrash: or better yet, take out the trash and get rid of the obviously junk GRF
19:19:31 <Supercheese> but admittedly you wouldn't have to go register somewhere to get them
19:19:43 <planetmaker> I even have written proof of my statement :-)
19:19:50 <Supercheese> and they would have "full functionality"
19:20:23 <FLHerne> Supercheese: They have a useful purpose to the user, however...
19:20:28 <peter1138> you have proof that we're evil?
19:20:41 <aditsu> planetmaker: thanks, sorry I forgot to check back earlier, since there was no message directed to me
19:20:43 <oftcrash> Pinkbeast: Just removing it could escalate and start a bigger discussion about the devs taking on content editing authority. Leaving it in place as a grandfathered newgrf, then starting with all new uploads after that is the cleanest
19:20:45 <Supercheese> Yeah, not the same
19:21:18 <Pinkbeast> oft: If there is going to be a policy change rather than an arbitary act of fiat, they're already taking on that authority.
19:21:21 <frosch123> oftcrash: there will be for sure no rules for what will be hosted
19:21:28 <andythenorth> there really is no need for policy change
19:21:32 <aditsu> planetmaker: you were answering me about proxy/tunneling
19:21:38 <Pinkbeast> If I were in their position I'd remove it and tell the uploader not to be a B.F.
19:21:41 <andythenorth> rubidi*m or whoever just marks the grf so it 's hidden, end of
19:21:58 <andythenorth> no policy change, no ToS blah blah blah, and no fricking endless hate war in the forum
19:22:00 <frosch123> if at all there would be a rule: "we can deny to host any content without giving reasons"
19:22:12 <andythenorth> frosch123: there already is, implicitly
19:22:16 <Pinkbeast> frosch: A guideline: "don't be a dick".
19:22:16 <planetmaker> yes, that, frosch123
19:22:22 <andythenorth> the ToS confer no rights on uploaders
19:22:33 <andythenorth> no guarantee of service, or fair treatment
19:22:48 <frosch123> Pinkbeast: other sites express it like "this is a private site; if we don't like you, we ban you" or something like that
19:22:55 <andythenorth> I have actually read the ToS, unlike, I assume, a lot of people
19:23:02 <aditsu> oh, I see I can get the server ip from the list
19:23:04 * Supercheese has not read them
19:23:18 <Pinkbeast> frosch: I wouldn't go that far; I think Bananas should strive to provide an even-handed service to all good-faith uploaders.
19:23:20 <planetmaker> but... you agreed to them, Supercheese ;-)
19:23:22 <Supercheese> I'd presume they basically convey "Don't be a dick"
19:23:30 <Supercheese> and I can get on board with that
19:23:39 <oftcrash> its more about perception - draconian approaches create more resentment. You have to wrap the draconian approach in nice language and a token compromise to make it seem fair
19:23:40 <planetmaker> Pinkbeast, it should. But that sentence doesn't change that
19:23:55 <Supercheese> planetmaker: of course, I read a generic ToS once, and then presume 99.9% of all other ToSes are similar
19:24:01 <andythenorth> Supercheese: all the ToS confer is the absolute right for ottd to distribute
19:24:02 <Supercheese> I can't be too wrong, eh
19:24:09 <andythenorth> all the rights granting is one way
19:24:34 <frosch123> Pinkbeast: you can word it nicely, if you are a native speaker :)
19:24:52 <andythenorth> don't word it, it's a fricking minefield
19:25:01 <frosch123> andythenorth: "all the rights granting" does not work for us
19:25:11 <Pinkbeast> I think "don't like" is a bit too strong - I don't _like_ the lorry set with naked ladies on, but I'm not sure it should be excised.
19:25:12 <andythenorth> what's broken about it?
19:25:31 <frosch123> we are not going to have appstore terms
19:25:36 <frosch123> which conflict with gpl or similar
19:25:40 <frosch123> that would be silly :p
19:25:50 <andythenorth> but I'm only describing what we do have? o_O
19:26:47 <Pinkbeast> In particular explicitly wording a policy means (inevitably) people will push right to the edge of it.
19:27:22 <andythenorth> and if written wrong, it can unintentionally confer rights
19:27:48 <Supercheese> Maybe I did read the ToS
19:27:55 <Supercheese> if I did, I certainly have forgotten :P
19:29:10 <Pinkbeast> Nerf this one upload, not good faith, but don't try and establish a boundary, if you ask me.
19:29:21 <frosch123> the tos is only about the rights bananas gets for the content
19:29:42 <frosch123> it does not claim any duties for anyone
19:29:46 <Supercheese> All except #1 start with "You grant the OpenTTD team"
19:29:46 <Eddi|zuHause> exactly, it doesn't talk about the duties that the service has
19:29:54 <andythenorth> it has a dangerous 'everyone'
19:30:05 <andythenorth> " everyone can download the content when they know that identifier"
19:30:17 <andythenorth> it will never come to court :)
19:30:27 <Supercheese> ToS seem fine to me
19:30:41 <andythenorth> I am -lots on changing them
19:30:42 <planetmaker> they're intentionally minimal
19:30:51 <andythenorth> really really really -lots
19:31:29 <andythenorth> all of this resolves to "don't be a dick", whether that's uploading stupid grfs, or saying stupid things about other people
19:31:40 <andythenorth> and make nice things
19:32:12 <peter1138> andythenorth's a dick
19:32:27 <andythenorth> where is roadtypes?
19:32:27 <Pinkbeast> I hear he's one of those simuscape clowns. :-)
19:32:41 * FLHerne also likes FISH and CHIPS :-)
19:32:51 <andythenorth> FISH has been eaten by Squid
19:32:59 <frosch123> not sure about simuscape and andy. currently i think pikka has a worse influence on andy
19:33:06 <andythenorth> I could have finished it by now, but people were being wrong on the internet
19:33:18 <oftcrash> Could I attempt another derailment with an industry nml question? Actually, probably a bunch of questions
19:33:32 <Supercheese> martian industries?
19:33:41 * Supercheese should play a game with those
19:33:44 <Supercheese> they look nice :)
19:33:45 <oftcrash> I'm trying to figure out how to get the cargo production requirements working
19:34:08 <Supercheese> I always hated being on mars and transporting Toffee and Soda and Cotton Candy
19:34:29 <oftcrash> yeah - it really just started out as something fun to do to learn NML
19:34:42 <planetmaker> there's a produce callback, oftcrash
19:34:43 <oftcrash> Not what I had intended to do much on - such is live
19:35:30 <oftcrash> I found the produce callback, but the syntax has me a bit perplexed
19:35:44 <oftcrash> Let me get the latest version up on github
19:36:44 <andythenorth> but have to go out :)
19:37:07 <andythenorth> there will be FIRS examples
19:37:36 <oftcrash> yeah... FIRS has been helpful... but you guys do all sorts of crazy stuff in there so its hard to weed through it all and figure out what is what.
19:38:01 <andythenorth> oh yeah, this one is *really* simple :o
19:38:11 <oftcrash> crazy as in cool, but beyond my abilities at this point
19:38:19 <planetmaker> bah... andy was faster :-)
19:38:23 <andythenorth> 30 lines of advanced varact 2 in one template :P
19:38:28 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Out of interest, how tricky would it be to make an addon-grf to FIRS?
19:38:55 <andythenorth> what are you making?
19:38:57 <frosch123> FLHerne: quite tricky, because firs changes all the time :p
19:39:04 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Oh, ok. I might try out some of my stupid chain ideas then :-)
19:39:15 <andythenorth> economies make your life way harder
19:39:36 <oftcrash> ah, cool - thanks. I was reading through the NML
19:40:09 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Not sure really, I had strange ideas about electric power, and related industries :P
19:40:27 <Supercheese> Adding electricity is easy-ish
19:40:33 <Supercheese> Making it good gameplay is hard
19:40:52 <Supercheese> I tried, found gameplay booooooooring
19:42:50 <aditsu> planetmaker: I set up a tunnel but it says server offline when I try to use it
19:43:12 <Eddi|zuHause> aditsu: you need to redirect both TCP and UDP through the tunnel
19:43:26 <jonty-comp> myes, tunnels often don't do UDP
19:43:42 <aditsu> ooh, I missed the UDP part
19:43:50 <aditsu> hmm.. it's an ssh tunnel
19:45:25 <FLHerne> Is it possible to add extra carogs to town/houseset acceptance?
19:45:35 <aditsu> it's super nasty to do udp through that :|
19:46:48 <aditsu> maybe I should use some iptables rules instead.. still quite nasty
19:47:06 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: yes, but you have to modify the house sets directly
19:48:20 <Eddi|zuHause> aditsu: i never made a tunnel, so i can't help you with that
19:48:26 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Not very convenient then :-( . Is it possible to edit the accepted cargoes of a houseset from a thirdparty grf?
19:48:44 <oftcrash> The house IDs are usuall sequential, I think
19:49:20 <oftcrash> I created a short script to loop through the IDs and override the accepted cargo types - it generated the NML for each house.
19:49:22 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Why do the OTTD/NewGRF devs never add the features/spec I need for my idiotic schemes!? :P
19:49:25 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: each houseset gets its own copy of the original houses, you can't modify houses of other grfs
19:50:11 <Eddi|zuHause> nobody apparently considered the idea of applying the engine_override feature for those (which is actually newer than the house sets)
19:50:27 <aditsu> a simple forwarding tool (working directly with sockets) would be ideal.. it just needs to do udp
19:50:41 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: That was what I was thinking of when I asked :P
19:51:10 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: well, implement it then ;)
19:51:28 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Still insufficient C++ing skill :-(
19:51:49 * FLHerne is slowly trying to learn it
19:52:32 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: skills in any other general purpose programming language should suffice... the rest is just syntax and details you figure out along the way :)
19:54:23 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Only other one I know is C, and I'm not very good at that either :P
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20:24:58 <Wolf01> I don't know why, but I suddenly remembered "Little Britain"
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20:35:16 <aditsu> oh wow I made it! socks server (using ssh) + tsocks :)
20:40:28 <FLHerne> Pikka: Hoy. No more UKRS2? :-(
20:43:42 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
20:57:46 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: i think pikka just easily gets bored when a project has reached a certain stage of maturity and wants to start over
20:58:34 <FLHerne> As long as it doesn't magically delete itself as soon as he stops updating it, it's fine :P
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21:05:36 <jonty-comp> it's fine, the old versions will remain available...on bananas
21:08:21 <Eddi|zuHause> .. unless he converts to simuscapism :p
21:10:05 <Eddi|zuHause> the whole idea that not keeping old versions around makes people more likely to use the new version reminds me of this movie where the guy invents the wheel, but makes it square so that it can't roll backwards.
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21:12:04 <Eddi|zuHause> funny: the german wikipedia says the "carry on" series consists of 30 movies, and the english wikipedia says 31 movies...
21:12:14 <Supercheese> oftcrash: you build martian industries using python?
21:12:38 <oftcrash> I poked at python a while back, but decided to actually learn it
21:12:42 <oftcrash> seemed like a good way
21:12:48 * Supercheese has never done much with python
21:12:50 <oftcrash> my build scripts are really ugly though
21:13:07 <oftcrash> not architected - more of a "hey, I should make a function"
21:13:08 <Supercheese> I just use .pnml and gcc preprocessor
21:13:48 <oftcrash> I can send you the processed nml if you want
21:13:58 <Supercheese> I think I have python installed
21:14:02 <Supercheese> I just don't code with it
21:14:09 <oftcrash> you'll need python, plus jinja2
21:14:16 <oftcrash> jinja2 is a templating engine
21:14:36 <oftcrash> I can just commit the latest build too - might be easiest
21:15:16 <oftcrash> the python is the easy part really - the NML is what's kicking my butt. I think I'm just missing some basics.
21:15:17 <Eddi|zuHause> templating engines are funny things... they're supposed to be flexible and reusable, and then everybody uses a different one
21:15:34 <Supercheese> I've not done much with industries
21:15:35 <Eddi|zuHause> so no actual reusing happens :)
21:15:39 <Supercheese> Seems harder than vehicles
21:15:45 <oftcrash> yeah - I grabbed it since we're looking at doing some stuff with jinja2 and flask at work
21:15:56 <oftcrash> yeah, wish I'd started with vehicles
21:16:28 <Eddi|zuHause> vehicles are boring, everybody does them
21:16:35 <oftcrash> the documentation is pretty good, but there are sections that assume a certain amount of knowledge about the game mechanics, or even NFO
21:16:43 <Supercheese> Newgrfs are boring, everybody does them :P
21:16:59 <oftcrash> all these action 1, action 14... I have to look them up and its all pretty wonky :)
21:17:01 <Eddi|zuHause> oftcrash: knowing the underlying nfo concept is often helpful, yes
21:17:12 * Supercheese knows very little about NFO
21:17:53 <oftcrash> There are FF people in the world, those who understand hex, those who don't, and 14 others
21:18:22 <jonty-comp> back in my day we wrote our TTD addons in assembly
21:18:22 <Supercheese> Isn't FF higher than 16?
21:18:37 <aditsu> oftcrash is in the 2nd category :p
21:18:49 <planetmaker> oftcrash, if you can do python you can actually write NML (without 'in') ;-)
21:19:05 <Supercheese> that would be 15 then
21:19:30 <oftcrash> Sorry, I started life as a front-end web developer - everything was in doubles :)
21:19:42 <planetmaker> it's more fun with binary...
21:19:44 <jonty-comp> by the looks of it, everybody is in the latter category
21:20:01 <planetmaker> there's 10 people in the world who understand binary. Who's the other?
21:20:09 <jonty-comp> i wonder if the number of people that understand hex is as high as 1 in 15
21:21:15 <planetmaker> who needs that when not being a nerd?
21:21:56 <oftcrash> maybe we should just code all grfs in assembly like Sawyer would have :)
21:22:38 <planetmaker> Not really. the base grfs are much much simpler
21:22:52 <planetmaker> no action0,1,2,3,... only real sprites
21:24:24 <oftcrash> I think I came at it all backwards - I started with trying to modify and duplicate the oil rig, and then finally figured out from forum posts and looking through the source that what I wanted wasn't possible yet.
21:24:49 <oftcrash> I should have just drawn a picture - followed the tutorials for that and then worked my way up to industries :)
21:25:13 <oftcrash> I'm re-reading the NML tutorial now
21:25:44 <Supercheese> Unfortunately the tutorial doesn't touch industries IIRC
21:25:54 <Supercheese> touch/cover/describe
21:26:15 <oftcrash> no, but there's stuff about the general game that helps - understanding the time, switches, etc
21:26:50 <oftcrash> stuff I didn't fully grasp. I don't learn well from reading - I need flow charts and hands-on.
21:27:45 <oftcrash> which is why I went into management a few years back :)
21:33:04 <oftcrash> any idea how many people play TTPatch vs OpenTTD?
21:33:31 <oftcrash> I'd rather not have to deal with testing for TTP
21:36:03 <frosch123> there are about 3 people who talk abou ttdp
21:36:11 <frosch123> it's unlikely that they play though
21:36:27 <frosch123> outside of the forums there are likely still some hundred people who play ttdp 2.0.1 for years
21:36:36 <frosch123> and have never discovered that there are other things
21:37:30 <frosch123> overall, i guess you can assume a ratio of 1:500 or 1:1000 for ttdp:ottd
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21:38:35 <oskari892> OpenTTD now is lightyears away from ttdp developement and the distance grows continously
21:38:49 <oftcrash> good enough for me :)
21:38:56 <jonty-comp> it only makes sense to develop for openttd
21:39:03 <frosch123> oskari892: that does not necessarily affect the players
21:39:10 <jonty-comp> as all you realistically want people to do is go "oh, this doesn't work in ttdpatch" and then move to openttd
21:39:15 <frosch123> there are tons of people playing ancient versions of ottd and ttdp
21:39:21 <jonty-comp> and then that makes it easier for everyone
21:39:45 <frosch123> i am quite sure there are way more people playing ttdp 2.0.1 than ttdp 2.5 beta or 2.6 alpha
21:40:20 <frosch123> there are regularly people on the forums asking how to upgrade from ottd 0.6 etc
21:40:24 <SpComb> ttdp 2.0.1 > ottd 1.2.3
21:40:37 <oskari892> Did someone bake the r25000 cake btw?
21:40:47 <oskari892> Like someone did on r10000
21:40:58 <frosch123> no, i believe the party was rescheduled to summer
21:41:32 <frosch123> there was also a r20k cake, and i had a piece of it; but i believe there are no public pictures of it
21:41:35 <LordAro> wait, we didn't suspend all OTTD development until summer?
21:42:07 <oskari892> Seems that it's going to be r30000 in summer, at this speed
21:42:11 <frosch123> r20k was an almond cake if i remeber correctly
21:42:34 <frosch123> oskari892: currently we are at about 1000 revisions a year
21:42:42 <frosch123> so, quite some time till r30k
21:43:04 <oskari892> Is there any chart of developement speed?
21:43:12 <Supercheese> There was some fancy youtube video once
21:43:30 <frosch123> ohloh is one of them
21:43:40 <Supercheese> Whizbang graphical depiction of OTTD development
21:43:51 <frosch123> just type "ohloh openttd" in your searchbar
21:44:21 <frosch123> then you can search for visualisation of ottd developement on the forums
21:44:29 <frosch123> which should give you a nice video from darkvater
21:44:41 <frosch123> someone made an upgrade to it later
21:44:48 <frosch123> i think it was tb, but not sure
21:46:08 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: didn't you mean ttdp 2.0.1r1?
21:46:42 <frosch123> i think it is 2.0r1
21:47:09 <frosch123> October 24, 2003: TTDPatch 2.0 rev 1 available
21:47:52 <Eddi|zuHause> ah, that way around then
21:48:16 <Eddi|zuHause> that is almost 10 years ago :p
21:49:36 <Eddi|zuHause> did the asteroid hit earth yet?
21:50:05 <jonty-comp> back when alt.games.microprose.transport-tycoon was the number one place to be :P
21:50:35 <jonty-comp> when i first emailed MB at the tender age of 12
21:50:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i never usenet-ed
21:51:22 <Eddi|zuHause> and i was older than 12 back then :p
21:52:03 <Stimrol> hello, about the 4 new string in the newest build, where do they appear in game?
21:52:05 <Supercheese> I played TTDP, but didn't really join any community stuffs
21:52:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i was 12-ish when i played TTO :)
21:52:43 <Supercheese> I don't precisely recall, a wee lad
21:52:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Stimrol: what strings are those?
21:52:59 <oftcrash> I was 20 when I played TTO
21:53:10 <Supercheese> didn't join any community stuff until 2007
21:53:24 * Supercheese wonders what his first post was
21:53:25 <Stimrol> Eddi|zuHause, for example this one --> STR_SERVICE_INTERVAL_DROPDOWN_TOOLTIP
21:53:30 <Supercheese> probably embarrassingly silly :P
21:53:37 <frosch123> Stimrol: vehicle gui
21:54:19 <LordAro> Supercheese: mine was one of the many topics asking where the old AI had gone :)
21:54:33 <Supercheese> Joined 2007, didn't post until 2010?!
21:54:57 <Stimrol> frosch123, thanks found it :)
21:55:58 <frosch123> Supercheese: why did you register if not for posting?
21:56:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: i took some time to join forums and stuff as well
21:56:07 <Supercheese> I haven't the foggiest
21:56:15 <Supercheese> evidently, lurking like mad
21:56:24 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: remembers the (un)read posts?
21:56:27 <frosch123> i was also 2 years on the forums before registering
21:56:41 <frosch123> i never use "unread posts"
21:56:54 <frosch123> my goal is not to read every post
21:57:14 <frosch123> it's sufficient to read the titles of the topics to dismiss 2/3
21:57:18 <Supercheese> I read every post that's outside of the General Transport, OffTopic, and Locomotion sections
21:57:28 <Supercheese> which is probably less than 1/3 of all posts :P
21:57:52 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: it's more about continuing to read a thread at the point you stopped
21:58:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: i read way fewer subforums than that
21:58:47 <SpComb> I barely read the forums anymore
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21:59:17 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: reading topics with more than 10 posts is usually a waste of time
21:59:26 <SpComb> used to read almost everything at one point
21:59:34 <frosch123> and i can remember where i was in shorter topics :p
21:59:55 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: yes, i sometimes wish i could ignore things like the dutch train set thread, which has about 100 posts on a busy day :)
22:00:16 <Supercheese> where 80% of the posts are Voyager One drawing sprites
22:00:20 <frosch123> ohoh, that sounds like you fail to ignore it :o
22:00:33 <Supercheese> he draws so many sprites, it's incredible @_@
22:00:39 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i totally fail at ignoring stuff
22:00:51 * peter1138 ignores Eddi|zuHause
22:01:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm already glad i can ignore the AI forum or the 32bpp forum
22:01:12 <Supercheese> There are barely any posts there anyways
22:01:32 <Eddi|zuHause> but ignoring individual threads at forums that i read is really difficult
22:01:47 <Eddi|zuHause> and the forum's ignore function is totally useless
22:01:54 <peter1138> you can't ignore the 32bpp
22:02:05 <peter1138> you'll miss out on all that fantastic groundbreaking content
22:02:36 <Supercheese> peter1138: You mean zbase? And... well... there isn't anything else, is there?
22:02:46 <Supercheese> Oh wait, old GRVTS
22:02:51 <peter1138> there's ... uh ... that 8/32bpp thing
22:02:57 <LordAro> there's the old stuff, which mostly isn't usable anymore
22:03:22 <Supercheese> Bad_Brett's working on stuff, unreleased though
22:03:28 <peter1138> but hey, wasn't 32bpp just waiting on EZ?
22:03:34 <peter1138> i mean that's only been a year
22:03:43 <peter1138> Bad_Brett's stuff looks goo
22:03:54 <Supercheese> You could claim like, 50% of the 32bpp market share like that
22:03:59 <Supercheese> just release a grf
22:05:41 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, total goo...
22:06:11 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: CETS supports 32bpp
22:06:23 <Eddi|zuHause> that must be like 20000 sprites :p
22:06:36 <Supercheese> CETS... that isn't publicized much is it?
22:06:40 <frosch123> what happened to cets?
22:06:50 <Eddi|zuHause> currently too busy
22:06:59 <frosch123> did it break under its complexity?
22:07:18 <Eddi|zuHause> it broke under nmlc's memory huggyness
22:08:11 <Eddi|zuHause> needs like >2GB free memory to compile, which i don't have, so it blocks the system swapping for 30 minutes
22:08:14 <Supercheese> It's real snazzy though, with them extra-turn-stages
22:08:59 <Supercheese> too bad the method only works for trains
22:08:59 <Bad_Brett> in that case you won't see a Bad Brett release in the near future
22:09:29 <Bad_Brett> if cets needs over 2GB free memory to compile
22:09:34 <Eddi|zuHause> Bad_Brett: you wouldn't hit that limit unless you have 4000 vehicles in your GRF :p
22:10:13 <oftcrash> Is it possible to articulate a ship or plane?
22:10:28 <Supercheese> Nope, don't think so
22:10:40 <Eddi|zuHause> oftcrash: planes are articulated (plane, shadow, rotor), and ships can't be articulated
22:11:19 <oftcrash> ah, but not in the sense of having a flying train, if you will
22:11:28 <Supercheese> Someone suggested that once
22:11:36 <Supercheese> for a great many reasons
22:11:53 <oftcrash> fun book I read a while back had sky trains using blimps
22:12:09 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: well, it's necessary for allowing NewGRF state machines for road vehicle stations
22:13:05 <Bad_Brett> I would like an option to set the aircraft flying height
22:13:24 <Supercheese> Someone said it's supposed to vary with aircraft speed
22:13:30 <Supercheese> I don't believe that :P
22:13:46 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, there is code that does that
22:13:54 <Supercheese> well it doesn't work very well
22:14:25 <LordAro> I believe it is there, but not very obvious
22:14:42 <LordAro> becomes more obvious if you have more height levels patch, iirc
22:15:05 <Bad_Brett> in that case it might be possible to add road vehicles that can travel in rough terrain?
22:15:18 <Bad_Brett> i guess the collision detection won't work but who cares?
22:15:33 <Supercheese> fly through buildings
22:17:01 <Eddi|zuHause> it's most visible when a plane approaches a waiting loop and slows down there
22:17:05 <Eddi|zuHause> then you see it lowering
22:17:31 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: planes already fly through buildings
22:17:35 <Bad_Brett> intersting... got to chech it out
22:17:40 <Supercheese> Eddi|zuHause: good point
22:17:59 <Eddi|zuHause> unless you're playing SimCity 2000
22:17:59 <Supercheese> Also, I have never seen panes do that
22:18:34 <Supercheese> errr, not clip through buildings, I mean change height other than takeoff/landing
22:18:56 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: there might be a video out there called "yexoair" or so
22:19:06 <Bad_Brett> so if you set the speed to like 10 mph they "fly" at a low height?
22:20:00 <LordAro> speaking of Yexo, where has he been? haven't seen him around for a while...
22:20:03 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
22:20:16 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Yexo was last seen in #openttd 11 weeks, 0 days, 9 hours, 3 minutes, and 44 seconds ago: <Yexo> <NGC3982> The station glitches are CHIPS related. I adressed it to Andy the other day, and it seems like it's b0rked in some way. <- it's still in the issue tracker for CHIPS, but I haven't had time to look at it yet
22:20:40 <Eddi|zuHause> well, he's still here...
22:20:56 * Supercheese can't stop laughing
22:21:16 <frosch123> base_altitude += min(20 * (v->vcache.cached_max_speed / 200), 90);
22:21:54 <frosch123> aircraft flying at 900 km-ish/h have maximum height
22:22:02 <Eddi|zuHause> so there's a minimum of 90 pixels?
22:22:20 <frosch123> PLANE_HOLDING_ALTITUDE = 150
22:22:21 <Eddi|zuHause> or no, a maximum of 90
22:22:32 <frosch123> it's 150 to 240 for planes
22:22:41 <frosch123> helicopters are fixed at 184, independent of speed
22:22:53 <Supercheese> Would be nice to have that newgrf-configurable
22:23:13 <Supercheese> new prop for jets :D
22:23:29 <frosch123> wrt. more heightlevels it is more important to change it into a height over ground thingie
22:23:37 <frosch123> rather than an absolute height thingie
22:24:06 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: yes, but it shouldn't change for every ground level change
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22:24:32 <frosch123> when i thought about that some time ago, i thought abuot making them ascend quickly
22:24:51 <frosch123> i.e. ascending with tile slope, but descending one heightlevel per 10 tiles only
22:24:55 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: there are plenty discussions in the more heightlevels topic, i think
22:25:17 <frosch123> likely, but that topic is so long that it is hard to find the interesting posts
22:25:36 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: it ended up with a hysteresis-like height curve
22:25:53 <frosch123> yeah, a hysteresis might also be a good idea
22:26:23 <frosch123> only start descending if there are at least 2 heightlevels to descend or so
22:26:37 <Bad_Brett> it would indeed be nice if you could set these parameters in nml
22:26:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't remember the exact step size that was taken
22:27:08 <Eddi|zuHause> it's probably easier to find that in the code than in the thread, though :p
22:27:18 <frosch123> i don't see why newgrfs would want to set this
22:27:59 <Supercheese> Some slow aircraft may be specialized for high-altitude
22:28:00 <frosch123> i mean ottd does silly thing like making planes flying north or east go at 10 pixels higher... to avoid collisions...
22:28:22 <Supercheese> frosch123: that sounds.... realistic!
22:28:51 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not like collisions would be visible on a 2-d-screen :p
22:29:01 <Bad_Brett> frosch123: aircraft type vehicles could be used for others things... you could make birds (like the town cars AI)... you could make hovercrafts... and other things
22:29:02 <frosch123> it just means that planes collide with planes flying 100 km-ish/h faster
22:29:03 <Supercheese> although it's more of a "Fly at these altitudes N/E" rather than a fixed altitude
22:29:20 <Supercheese> "S/W flies at (altitudes - 500)" or so
22:29:22 <frosch123> Bad_Brett: we had a hovercraft patch
22:29:26 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: aren't the internal speed units like 8mph?
22:29:28 * Supercheese can't recall specifics
22:29:36 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: no, that is the newgrf unit
22:29:42 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: or was that "fixed" and only kept for newgrf compatibility?
22:29:44 <frosch123> ottd has only km-ish/h internally
22:30:07 <frosch123> ottd converts it's own units to newgrf and traditional-station-rating units
22:30:48 <frosch123> hmm, actually not true
22:30:53 <frosch123> only planes were changed
22:31:05 <frosch123> ships and rv still use 0.5 km-ish/h
22:33:06 <Bad_Brett> anyway, i guess it would mean a lot of work... but if you could keep aircrafts at a ground level, the pathfinder could be used to create new exciting objects... for example, you could send forwarders to a forest without building roads
22:33:30 <Supercheese> proper Hover Vehicles
22:33:52 <Supercheese> "We don't need roads"
22:34:12 <Supercheese> all technically possible as-is though
22:34:37 <frosch123> Bad_Brett: you forgot that ottd is a transport game
22:34:44 <frosch123> building infrastructure is the whole point of the game
22:34:57 <Eddi|zuHause> Bad_Brett: maybe you want "offroad" vehicles instead ;)
22:35:01 <frosch123> making vehicle not require infrastructure makes it pointless
22:35:11 <Bad_Brett> well the same thing could be said about all aircrafts
22:35:22 <frosch123> guess what why people don't like aircraft :)
22:35:24 <Eddi|zuHause> Bad_Brett: but the pathfinder will go mad
22:35:50 * Supercheese likes all means of transport
22:36:08 <Bad_Brett> i find ships quite interesting since the addition of rivers
22:36:13 <Supercheese> I recall saying I'd try my hand at Star Trek-style transporters, the ultimate in no-infrastructure-required
22:36:20 <frosch123> ships and aircraft have their niche in the game
22:36:21 <Eddi|zuHause> every time i try aircraft i find them horribly inefficient
22:36:27 <Supercheese> of course I've been too lazy to do it :P
22:36:28 <frosch123> but you cannot play an entire game with them
22:37:22 <Eddi|zuHause> you cannot manage airports to increase their efficiency... it's take it or leave it
22:38:12 <Eddi|zuHause> then planes spend 90% of the time circling in the holding pattern and you have no way to optimize it
22:38:53 <Eddi|zuHause> and when you try timetabling, you notice that there are too few loading bays on the airport
22:39:15 <Supercheese> ...and then someone makes a patch for ridiculously-huge airports
22:39:54 <Eddi|zuHause> ... which doesn't solve any problems at all, you can just throw more planes at it before it shows...
22:40:45 <Supercheese> For drop-off-only, you can just build more airports, but how often do you only drop-off air cargo?
22:41:10 <Supercheese> and you've got to get it from somewhere
22:41:36 <Eddi|zuHause> once. i took oil from an oil rig by zeppelin, and landed it on a helidepot
22:41:44 <Bad_Brett> if you could get a working pathfinder, offroad vechicles is not a bad idea really... it would be dumpers, forwarders, wagon trains (obviously)... building roads could be expensive but greatly increase the speed and lower the running cost... it wouldn't work with the unmodded game, but I think it would work rather well with newgrf's...
22:41:49 <andythenorth> and there are noise limits or airport limits
22:41:58 <andythenorth> offroad vehicles :P
22:42:00 <Supercheese> disable that crap
22:42:04 <andythenorth> there's an idea I've had 10 times
22:42:07 <Supercheese> noise limits, nah
22:42:07 <Bad_Brett> though i realise that coding that would be practically impossible :P
22:42:20 <andythenorth> Bad_Brett: why wouldn't it work?
22:42:23 <andythenorth> it's just like ships
22:42:25 * Supercheese has ice in his object set
22:42:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Bad_Brett: modifying the pathfinder is simple
22:42:54 <Eddi|zuHause> Bad_Brett: but it gets very inefficient if almost all tiles get traversable
22:43:30 <andythenorth> just do 'go in the general direction of x'
22:43:31 <Bad_Brett> but... if a vechicle traveled at 2x the speed on roads
22:43:39 <andythenorth> and hope you don't get a peninsula :P
22:43:58 <andythenorth> 'go anywhere' vehicles _might_ have some issues :P
22:44:19 <Supercheese> modifying aircraft height would be easier
22:44:21 <andythenorth> also...does it add to gameplay? o_O
22:44:27 <Supercheese> new property, fly at XX height
22:44:50 <Supercheese> if you want some eyecandy, code a bird as an aircraft, set it to fly very low
22:45:00 <Supercheese> change a heliport to look like a building or something
22:45:08 <Supercheese> have the birds fly between buildings
22:45:10 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: "go anywhere" is planes, which have no pathfinder at all, they just go straight until they arrive. there can never be anything blocking them
22:45:30 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: fair point
22:45:37 <Bad_Brett> new Supercheese grf?
22:45:50 <Supercheese> there'd have to be a patch first ;)
22:46:19 <andythenorth> can someone draw ships while I sleep, thanks
22:46:23 <andythenorth> let me know when it's done
22:46:39 *** andythenorth is now known as pikkas
22:46:56 *** pikkas is now known as bedtime
22:47:06 * bedtime has to go to bed for beauty sleep
22:47:22 <bedtime> and to prepare for being kicked in the head at 05.45 by a 15 month old boy
22:47:35 *** bedtime is now known as andythebed
22:47:43 <andythebed> Pikka: is your industry set done yet?
22:47:55 <andythebed> good work that man
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22:48:09 <jonty-comp> why would you put a 15 month old boy in line with your head
22:48:14 <jonty-comp> that's just bad planning
22:48:27 <andythebed> he is somewhat mobile
22:48:41 <FLHerne> jonty-comp: Oh, same TV show?
22:48:53 <andythebed> he starts out in a cot
22:49:01 <andythebed> and in the morning he is kicking me in the head
22:49:01 <chillcore> »» 23:14:55 < Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: there are plenty discussions in the more heightlevels topic, i think
22:49:07 <chillcore> »» 23:15:17 < frosch123> likely, but that topic is so long that it is hard to find the interesting posts
22:49:10 <andythebed> and my wife mentions something about not getting much sleep
22:49:33 <jonty-comp> the solution to that is just to get a nice lid for said cot
22:49:40 <andythebed> Pikka: is tomorrow a newgrf day?
22:49:44 <Eddi|zuHause> chillcore: frosch123 doesn't read threads with more than 10 posts, we established that earlier :p
22:49:58 <andythebed> we could delete more things
22:50:03 <andythebed> then it will all soon be done
22:50:34 <FLHerne> jonty-comp: Nope, just random coincidence then...
22:50:46 <oskari892> More height levels is definately a patch that should be pushed forward towards trunk :)
22:50:52 <jonty-comp> today is full of odd coincidences
22:51:10 <andythebed> a newgrf that just turns off some default vehicles? o_o
22:51:12 <chillcore> Eddi|zuHause: FLHerne ... should not be much effort to update
22:51:54 <FLHerne> chillcore: To update what?
22:52:06 <FLHerne> Sorry, tired and non-context-aware :P
22:52:15 <Supercheese> Hah, I even posted in that thread
22:52:25 <frosch123> ah ,yeah, i should probably add that to my bookmarks then :)
22:52:28 <Supercheese> saying basically the same thing :P
22:52:49 <chillcore> that patch that is relevant to the the discussion I quoted just aliitle while ago FLHerne
22:53:12 <jonty-comp> i believe i shall also go to bed, provided my housemate doesn't start snoring again
22:53:12 <chillcore> I highlighted you by accident sorry
22:53:20 <FLHerne> Oh, scrollback-reading will be required then :-)
22:55:37 <FLHerne> MHL does seem easy to update, in fact
22:56:12 <FLHerne> You seem to have accidentally highlighted me in a discussion I happen to find interesting :P
22:56:50 <oskari892> I have an idea to BaNaNaS
22:57:27 <oskari892> Could someone code "preview" button to that, so one could have a brief look at it from few screenshots or so?
22:57:42 <oskari892> From various NewGRF:s
22:57:52 <chillcore> Magic ... FLHerne ;)
22:58:41 <FLHerne> Or possibly it was deliberate, and I'm suffering from a lack of sarcasm-awaeness as well as context?
22:59:12 <Supercheese> currently the clickable URL does that, often linking to forum threads with screenshots
22:59:38 <Supercheese> not an in-game screen viewer, but similar functionality
22:59:55 <oskari892> Even more direct wayt with in-game screen viewer?
23:00:38 <Supercheese> Well, someone could write A Patch for That™
23:00:57 <Supercheese> the typical answer :P
23:03:13 <Eddi|zuHause> oskari892: most often it's requested that heightmaps or scenarios show a preview
23:03:32 <Pikka> oskari892: bananas is a content distribution system
23:03:44 <Pikka> it is not in any way a content review, preview, or finding system
23:03:56 <Pikka> and that's the way it should stay imo
23:09:36 <Zuu> Well, some days/weeks ago I realized another use case for click-on-string. Allow clicking on tags in the bananas window to add a tag to the search filter. However, I need to get it done first. :-)
23:09:46 *** TheMask96 has joined #openttd
23:11:42 <frosch123> i hoped to display the tags in a list, and then clicking on them would add/remove them from the filter
23:11:49 <frosch123> but, the tags are mostly useless
23:12:33 * Supercheese doesn't know what to do with tags
23:12:42 <Supercheese> There are no guidelines
23:12:43 <Zuu> They are quite useless indeed. Though a click thingy will at least not use any screen space.
23:13:18 * Zuu wrote a guideline for AIs
23:13:19 <frosch123> anyway, somewhat related... i am pondering to change the order gui
23:13:23 <frosch123> to use icons instead of text
23:13:25 <Zuu> It actually worked for quite some time.
23:13:38 <frosch123> icons can be aligned in columns, so you can click on them to switch full load
23:13:44 <frosch123> refit, stop location
23:13:49 <frosch123> or in the future: reversing
23:14:10 <Zuu> Noone did the same for the much larger NewGRF scene which from the beginning was harder to get a common standard. No doubt it is a mess with NewGRF tags.
23:14:16 <frosch123> but the different order types (station/depot/conditional) would break the columns :s
23:14:36 <frosch123> Zuu: for newgrfs we just search the whole description :)
23:15:44 <Eddi|zuHause> bananas needs a tag cloud!!
23:16:05 <planetmaker> good idea frosch123
23:16:09 <Zuu> Which have heightmap and 2048 written out in large size :-)
23:16:38 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: the order gui needs some total restructuring
23:17:07 <frosch123> yup, the last one is only 4 years ago :p
23:17:19 <Eddi|zuHause> (and you're going to kill me if i come with shunting at this point :p)
23:17:26 <Zuu> IIRC someone posted a icon proposal for the order GUI which was quite nice.
23:18:31 <frosch123> i cannot remember any order related patch
23:18:39 <Zuu> Now that we have non-hidden tooltips it may even be discoverable for new players.
23:18:40 <frosch123> except for the refit-gui thingie
23:18:49 <frosch123> or was it about selective loading?
23:18:55 <frosch123> something with a big cargo list in the order
23:19:19 <Zuu> It was probably only a graphical mockup.
23:19:47 <Zuu> With icons for things like "stop near/middle/far" instead of using text for that.
23:20:05 <Zuu> It was IIRC quite still the same GUI but with less text and icons instead.
23:21:03 <Zuu> Thats not the one I have in my mind. (but my memory could be wrong too)
23:21:05 <frosch123> hmm... what does the "ignore signals" button mean?
23:21:38 <Zuu> All trains on that order will ignore signals until you toggle that button again?
23:22:01 <frosch123> i believe it is the normal button from the vehicle gui, but moved to the order gui
23:22:23 <Zuu> yeah, where it only make sense for non-shared orders.
23:22:34 <frosch123> it's about moving "skip order", "goto depot" and "ignore signals" into one place
23:22:45 <frosch123> but i don't quite agree with that reasoning :)
23:23:55 <Zuu> Hmm, oh yes. With shared orders, the order window both show shared state but also vehicle specific state (current order).
23:24:03 <Eddi|zuHause> "all trains ignore signals" sounds like a not very bright idea ;p
23:24:25 <planetmaker> on the contrary. very bright. fireball
23:24:35 <Zuu> Maybe have a order-viewer show up that is vehicle specific. Then form that you open a order editor that doesn't contain any vehicle specific buttons or data.
23:24:38 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i think that "orders" need to be separated into "go to X" and "do Y when you get there"
23:25:04 <Eddi|zuHause> and secondly, "orders" should be composed of "routes"
23:25:11 <frosch123> i remember argueing about the completly non-comprehsensive icons back then
23:26:01 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: i think i made fun of suborders in .dev recently
23:26:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. i set up once "from A to B you go via X,Y and Z (with timetable)", and then i give trains orders "go from A to B via route XYZ, and then to C via blah"
23:26:39 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: have you checked out the Timetable Improvement Patch?
23:27:08 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: which one is that?
23:27:09 <Zuu> frosch123: not that topic
23:27:21 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: the TIP one, fairly recently
23:27:22 <frosch123> there are many timetable patches
23:27:31 <frosch123> is it about separation?
23:27:40 <frosch123> or about the exact schedule times with 24 hour clock?
23:27:40 <Eddi|zuHause> it's about routes
23:28:13 <Eddi|zuHause> it doesn't have 24h clock afair. that was ITiM
23:28:59 <frosch123> also not what i have in mind
23:29:15 <frosch123> i don't want a toolbar, i want info icons in the order rows
23:30:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean concept-wise, you'd have to have an idea what orders should look like, and then think about how to efficiently represent them. not the other way around
23:31:58 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: ah, i remember skipping that post
23:32:17 <frosch123> too long for someone not interested in timetables :)
23:32:46 <frosch123> i am looking at the screenshot
23:32:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i've not had a chance to test it
23:33:05 <Eddi|zuHause> but the idea sounded interesting
23:33:22 <Eddi|zuHause> and timetables are in desperate need of macromanaging functions
23:33:38 <Zuu> I found a thread for implementing routes from 2008, but now I don't find it again. :-)
23:34:01 <frosch123> anyway, essentially we have routes
23:34:06 <frosch123> we just do not have the gui for it
23:35:53 <Eddi|zuHause> a macromanaging function i would use could be "from A to B via X,Y,Z, send a train every 10 days for 30 days, then no train for 30 dais, repeat"
23:37:17 <Eddi|zuHause> and interleave this with "from A to B via (express), send no train for 50 days, send one train, send no train for 10 days, repeat"
23:37:24 <Zuu> (not the order GUI, but the routes thingy which is probably not really routes)
23:38:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: that is rather about group management, isn't it?
23:39:06 <Zuu> they have some order connection, but it is probably more grouping than routes.
23:40:58 <frosch123> Zuu: you restored a post from 2007 from browser history? :p
23:41:23 <chillcore> good night planetmaker and everybody else.
23:42:00 <frosch123> Zuu: anyway, i did not find anything like a renewed orders gui
23:42:05 <Zuu> Anyhow, the routes discussion remind me about my idea to have partial orders. Eg. each waypoint have a list of orders. Then when you tell a vehicle order to visit this waypoint, it will add an item in the order list that points to the waypoint and will insert a shared copy of that partial order list into the vehicle orders.
23:42:36 <Zuu> frosch123: I tried to search for what I was thinking about, but couldn't find it. It was probably just a lose suggestion somewhere.
23:43:25 <Zuu> That post form my browser history was a post that I saw today when looking for the post that I was thinking about.
23:44:00 <Eddi|zuHause> so you randomly browse threads from 5 years ago? :)
23:44:25 <frosch123> the search results do not display the date
23:45:53 <frosch123> he... prissi started two topics about gui consistency
23:51:47 <Eddi|zuHause> question asked in a bavarian beer tent: "would it, in retrospect, have been better to have given berlin to the russians?" - "no, i love the russians too much to burden them with that" :p
23:54:11 <frosch123> hmm, the simutrans forums have really complicated member titles
23:54:22 <frosch123> "Simitrans-Experimental project coordinator"
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