IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-02-11
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00:01:49 <Superuser> The above is extremely important, so please just look at it when taking a glance at your client
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00:06:15 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it will stop at more than one depot (unless you give explicit depot orders)
00:07:48 <Superuser> ok thanks
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00:30:20 <Superuser>
00:30:23 <Superuser> what in the world
00:30:29 <Superuser> "{BLACK}Vehicle data to base jumping on"
00:30:35 <Superuser> what does THAT mean???
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00:30:41 <Superuser> my mind is full of fuck
00:34:33 <Eddi|zuHause> it should probably be reworded...
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00:37:28 <Eddi|zuHause> ... although i can't find any sane version of that sentence
00:38:24 <Superuser> what does it mean?
00:39:52 <Superuser> also, you're just an hg commit from changing the sentence ;)
00:42:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't have commit access
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02:35:11 <peter1138> everyone can commit in hg or git
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03:17:38 <Pikka> can they though?
03:19:36 <peter1138> yes
03:19:44 <peter1138> now why has evolution rolled back to mid-january?
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04:46:04 <__ln__> tere hõmmikust
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06:46:23 <Pokka> that's because
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07:08:48 <Pikka> good morning andythenorth
07:10:34 <andythenorth> bonsoir
07:13:12 <Pikka> has inspiration struck overnight?
07:13:29 <andythenorth> AV9?
07:13:34 <andythenorth> call it something else
07:14:30 <andythenorth> also, for long-lived ship classes, do they deserve a name?
07:14:44 <andythenorth> or can I get away with 'Large Trawler', 'Small Coaster'
07:15:05 <Supercheese> I think everyone will have different opinions on that
07:15:27 <Pikka> probably don't need a name if they're generic types
07:15:39 <Pikka> what's wrong with av9?
07:16:44 <andythenorth> 'meh'
07:16:50 <andythenorth> mix it up a bit?
07:16:55 <andythenorth> BlackBox.grf
07:18:02 <Pikka> clever names are all very well
07:18:45 <Pikka> but you don't think "slartibartfast.grf is the new 68903.grf" isn't a bit confusing or past-care-factor for the average punter?
07:19:00 <andythenorth> 10CC_Planes.grf
07:19:05 <andythenorth> just 10CC everything
07:19:10 <andythenorth> what's you new PBI called?
07:19:17 <Pikka> dunno yet
07:19:30 <Pikka> I called it gecko in the blog post, because I didn't want to call it TaI
07:19:42 <Supercheese> TaI for me implies the townset
07:19:45 <Supercheese> not the industryset
07:21:06 <andythenorth> Ta*
07:23:02 <Supercheese> Tee Ay Eye
07:25:17 <Pikka> I decided to drop TaI because I haven't seen anyone else yet *not* write it "Tal".
07:25:55 <peter1138> what
07:26:02 <peter1138> liar
07:26:11 <peter1138> i never write it "Tal"
07:26:17 <Pikka> you don't count
07:26:28 <peter1138> oh ok
07:26:34 <Supercheese> Typeface issues
07:26:42 <Pikka> I'm just talking about the plebs :)
07:27:00 <Supercheese> TaI is identical to Tal in half or so of the typically-used fonts
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07:28:41 <Pikka> "CERE"
07:28:47 <Pikka> see, this is what I'm talking about
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07:29:16 <Pikka> we already have two too many cargo labels for grain, so ECS decides to fix it by creating another one.
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07:30:40 <andythenorth> Pikka: definitely call something Black Box
07:30:59 <andythenorth> maybe I just call new FISH KLF.grf
07:31:06 <Pikka> should be a law against it
07:32:05 <andythenorth> against disco?
07:33:10 <Pikka> yes
07:36:14 <andythenorth> so can I get away with using these as random graphics on same ship ID?
07:36:15 <andythenorth>
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07:39:36 <Pikka> don't see why not
07:41:57 <andythenorth> \o/
07:44:58 <andythenorth> what about these two?
07:44:59 <andythenorth>
07:45:27 <Pikka> first pme
07:45:30 <Pikka> one
07:45:36 <Pikka> is a steam ship, and the second a diesel?
07:45:46 <Pikka> possibly as generations, not as randoms
07:46:02 <andythenorth> also different hull length
07:46:08 <andythenorth> so probably I can...
07:46:33 <andythenorth> - do random graphics, which keeps me and Dan and Coxx happy, because we have a bad addiction to
07:46:40 <peter1138> 611 downloads whoop
07:46:46 <peter1138> people download any old shite
07:47:00 <peter1138> fillum at eleven
07:47:01 <andythenorth> - but they have to be same hull length, same stats, and recognisably same ship ID
07:49:03 <andythenorth> FISH 2 had this crappy generations thing
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07:49:16 <andythenorth> "oh it's like the last ship, but 1mph faster, and 70t more capacity"
07:49:24 <andythenorth> blah
07:50:20 <andythenorth> tedious autoreplace-scrap-a-few-ships-because-there's-too-much-capacity-on-the-route-meh
07:56:22 <andythenorth> so Pikka what do _you_ want from AV9? o_O
07:56:32 <Pikka> dunno
07:56:34 <andythenorth> cake?
07:56:36 <Pikka> not thinking about it yet :)
07:57:16 <andythenorth> Everything Is Zepellins
07:57:58 <Supercheese> Awesome
07:58:05 <Supercheese> AvZ
07:58:11 <andythenorth> :)
07:58:13 <Supercheese> 100% rigid airships
07:58:23 * Supercheese 's dream come true
07:58:30 <andythenorth> Zeppelin, Spruce Goose, Concorde, Osprey Tiltrotor
07:58:31 <andythenorth> done
07:58:40 <Supercheese> Concorde can buzz off
07:58:45 <Supercheese> Keep the rest :D
07:58:58 <Supercheese> Maybe add a PBY Catalina for good measure
07:59:37 <Pikka> splendid
08:00:39 <Pikka> I'll probably genericise the planes a bit, and bias them towards personal favourites ;)
08:00:48 <Supercheese> Don't we all :)
08:00:49 <Pikka> I'm thinking no airships
08:00:57 <Supercheese> :( :(
08:01:06 <Pikka> airships are terrible
08:01:24 <andythenorth> grfs are 99 flake
08:01:32 <Pikka> yes
08:01:37 <andythenorth> two-thirds vanilla and cone
08:01:37 <Supercheese> Airships are cool, not efficient
08:01:44 <andythenorth> one-thirds flake and sauce
08:06:23 <Supercheese> Pikka: running sounds for the aircraft?
08:06:45 * Supercheese very much likes UKRS running sounds
08:07:45 <andythenorth> hmm
08:08:00 * andythenorth wonders if BANDIT could randomise graphics between cabover and conventional trucks
08:08:03 <andythenorth> could / should
08:08:07 <andythenorth> length would change
08:09:01 <Pikka> no it wouldn't
08:09:17 <andythenorth> difference isn't big enough to bother?
08:09:24 <andythenorth> keep same chassis frame length?
08:09:44 <Pikka> keep the same length, or just have empty space at the front of the cabover
08:10:34 <andythenorth> weird turning offset o_O
08:11:08 <andythenorth> anyway, $someone should get on and write frosh's spec for vehicle 'views'
08:12:06 <andythenorth> then players could choose stuff that's only graphical
08:15:12 <andythenorth> Pikka: eh, it's not buy menu spam that's the problem, it's gameplay spam
08:15:25 <Pikka> is it?
08:15:31 <andythenorth> yarp
08:15:35 <andythenorth> verily and stuff
08:15:43 <Pikka> keeping stuff simple is nice :)
08:15:59 <andythenorth> means I might get 1.0 on a grf :P
08:16:38 * andythenorth shoud stop making grf
08:16:45 <andythenorth> and go make childcare and then internets
08:18:44 <Eddi|zuHause> internets are overrated
08:19:29 <Pikka> okiedokie
08:19:34 <Pikka> hmm
08:19:40 <andythenorth> mmh
08:19:46 <Pikka> right-justified buy menu sprites are for yes?
08:19:49 <Pikka> or for no?
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08:20:40 <Pikka>
08:22:35 <andythenorth> for no
08:22:41 <andythenorth> center-align, like god and CS intended
08:22:53 <andythenorth> although it does create a nice center-edge
08:22:56 <Pikka> eh
08:23:04 <Pikka> God's alright
08:23:11 <Pikka> CS is a bit of a nong
08:23:28 <Pikka> I dunno, it was just an idea
08:24:19 <andythenorth> :)
08:24:34 <andythenorth> is that the sprite size you're using?
08:24:53 <Pikka> it's the normal sprite size
08:25:19 <Pikka> although, in that picture, the wagons are "large" loading gauge, and the loco is "small" loading gauge.
08:25:29 <Pikka> so it's 1px lower than the wagons
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08:30:08 <andythenorth> Pikka: /me likes that sprite size
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08:30:39 <Pikka> in the horizontal views, they're the same size as every vehicle ever drawn :P
08:31:17 <Pikka> the theory is that these are the "bare" vehicle sprites
08:31:38 <Pikka> when you build a wagon and add it to a 10CC locomotive, it will get a proper model
08:31:56 <Pikka> ie, a country and era specific sprite set
08:31:59 <Pikka> and cargo
08:32:04 <andythenorth> I need something similar for Bandit
08:32:07 <andythenorth> maybe ships too
08:32:13 <andythenorth> ghost sprites
08:34:17 <andythenorth> 'contents may vary from packaging'
08:34:24 <andythenorth> 'photo for illustrative purposes only'
08:34:45 <Supercheese> 'some assembly required'
08:34:47 <Supercheese> :D
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08:37:43 <Supercheese> Loading livestock on FISH barges is weird, no specific cargo support so all cargoes look the same
08:37:57 <Supercheese> Poor pigs and cows have been crushed into a generic brown mush O_o
08:38:59 <andythenorth> been thinking about that
08:39:18 <Supercheese> Didn't Mr. NUTS offer his cargo graphics?
08:39:40 <Alberth> moin
08:40:11 <Pikka> daylength people are silly
08:40:24 <andythenorth> did you figure that by reading, or simply the wall of text?
08:40:44 <Supercheese> Can't /ignore the daylength thread, I tried
08:41:48 <andythenorth> my favourite word of last year: tl;dr
08:41:56 <andythenorth> followed closely by: omnishambles
08:41:58 <Pikka> I don't know what they want to achieve. The explanation for "why" is "many players have always been interested".
08:42:07 <andythenorth> both words apply to that thread
08:42:19 <andythenorth> I wanted daylength
08:42:21 <andythenorth> ask why?
08:42:26 <Pikka> why?
08:42:42 <andythenorth> because newgrfs offer vehicle progression so fast that I never really get to watch the trains
08:42:48 <andythenorth> can you think of a solution?
08:42:49 <Alberth> I already asked for a clear goal description, but they just went on with details
08:42:55 <Supercheese> Year cheat
08:42:57 <Supercheese> Save/load
08:42:58 <Pikka> one or two, one or two :)
08:43:23 <andythenorth> NARS 2 is a master criminal
08:43:29 <Alberth> andythenorth: less vehicles in the newgrf, with longer model life time? :)
08:43:37 <Supercheese> I sometimes set up a nice rail line, save before I start it up, watch it run happily for a bit and monitor for problems, then load the save and fix any problems and move on to the next rail line
08:43:40 <Supercheese> rinse repeat
08:43:40 <andythenorth> GP9, GP38, SD40, all come along in about 20 mins of game time
08:43:47 <Pikka> NARS2 is a steaming pile of seemed-like-a-good-idea-at-the-time
08:43:54 <andythenorth> NARS 2 is a lot of fun
08:44:01 <andythenorth> like playing with mud
08:44:04 <andythenorth> or face paints
08:44:14 <andythenorth> it's not a game though
08:44:26 <andythenorth> it's still my second favourite train grf
08:44:29 <Alberth> playing with mud is not a game? :o
08:44:59 <andythenorth> it's ludic
08:45:06 <andythenorth> it's probably not a game
08:45:10 <andythenorth> you can play games in mud
08:45:24 <Supercheese> "ludic", I hope that is a real adjective
08:45:33 * Supercheese will use it if it is :)
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08:45:50 <andythenorth> it's latin and crap
08:45:55 <Supercheese> Yes
08:45:56 <andythenorth> means 'play' and some other things
08:46:06 <Supercheese> Well, just an english-adjetive form of the latin verb
08:46:31 <Supercheese> it seems you can get away with that for most any latin word :P
08:47:09 <andythenorth> Alberth: less vehicles in the newgrf, with longer model life time? <- orly, who'd be thinking of that? o_O
08:48:16 <Alberth> yeah, it is not realistic not to include all historic models of a country!!
08:48:22 <Supercheese> Anyway time for sleep
08:48:29 <Alberth> good night Supercheese
08:48:33 <Supercheese> valete omnes
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09:05:09 <Twofish> Saw some OpenTTD screen shots online - and now I just want to get home from work :(
09:06:34 <Twofish> Even though I guess that there is a possibility that "someone" at home want me to do something other around the house rather than making money in a game :p
09:12:49 <Alberth> browsing screen shots is dangerous :p
09:14:00 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, you could come across some with opengfx maglev, which seriously hurts your eyes
09:14:41 <Twofish> Well, I stumbled upon them. Haven't given TTD any thoughts for a couple of months... But now, I just want to lay some rail roads...
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10:45:10 <andythenorth> Pikka: go to bed, the sun is going down in Brisbane
10:45:13 <andythenorth> or has alrady
10:45:27 <andythenorth> you might turn into a gremlin
10:47:52 <Pikka> does it
10:48:34 <Pikka> oh
10:48:43 <Pikka> mb just wants to be helpful, good
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10:49:57 <andythenorth> I find him heplful
10:50:20 <__ln__> @seen Polleke
10:50:20 <DorpsGek> __ln__: I have not seen Polleke.
10:50:42 <andythenorth> Squid is basically NewShips it turns out
10:50:53 <andythenorth> how rare
10:56:50 <Pikka> oops
10:57:06 <Pikka> better add sailing ships!
11:10:19 <peter1138> hi
11:10:41 <Pikka> hello peeter
11:12:35 <__ln__> breaking news:
11:16:07 <__ln__> the Pope is going to resign
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11:23:52 <__ln__>
11:29:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i never knew that is even an option
11:29:43 <Eddi|zuHause> apparently only one pope ever resigned, Coelestin V. in 1294
11:30:02 <SpComb> wikipedia says: Age at death: 85 years, 279 days (living)
11:30:23 <__ln__> other sources say it would have happened in 1415, but do not mention the name.
11:31:07 <Eddi|zuHause>
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12:00:07 <MNIM> __ln__: some gregorius
12:02:54 <Pikka> peter: don't
12:03:01 <Pikka> just ignore them and maybe they'll go away
12:03:24 <peter1138> :p
12:04:00 <andythenorth> seaplanes
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12:05:44 <Pikka> I'm making a seaplane set
12:05:49 <Pikka> I see a plane and I don't include it
12:06:09 <andythenorth> this is very dilient of you
12:06:15 <andythenorth> diligent even
12:06:19 * andythenorth is not diligent at typing
12:07:41 <Eddi|zuHause> someone had this in yesterday's calendar sheet: ("holy something, tomorrow i quit")
12:10:05 <andythenorth> Pikka: 10CC RandomPrupleThings
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12:10:16 <andythenorth> silly trains
12:10:27 <Pikka> scrubblestrains 2000
12:10:30 <andythenorth> that
12:10:47 <andythenorth> self propelled rail gun
12:10:54 <andythenorth> for destroying castles, purpose of
12:11:22 <andythenorth>
12:11:38 <Pikka> now you're just being silly :)
12:12:08 <Pikka> peter: you could of course make the whole discussion moot by simply creating the callback and committing it to trunk :)
12:13:00 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: strange, i only knew "Dora" before, never heard "Schwerer Gustav"
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12:15:57 <peter1138> and the next commit would be removing the "is an ai" flag :p
12:17:03 <Pikka> suits me
12:20:09 <Eddi|zuHause> if the intention is only to give some diversity to players, then the ai flag is not needed at all
12:33:04 <Alberth> Pikka: how can you ever do 'enabling vehicles as "rewards" ' in newgrf ?
12:33:23 <andythenorth> how can't you?
12:33:24 <Pikka> I have no idea, Alberth
12:33:50 <Pikka> I should just say what I want and why I want it and not try and spice it up with what I think other people might want. :)
12:34:05 <Alberth> you made it part of a newgrf request
12:36:59 <Alberth> why would it be bad to strip those options away in the program code instead?
12:37:26 <Pikka> strip which options?
12:37:41 <Alberth> options to buy some vehicle type(s)
12:38:01 <Pikka> how does the program code know which vehicles to strip?
12:38:24 <Alberth> I guess I am thrown off by "a callback to add/remove vehicles from the purchase list", is that a dynamic property or a static property?
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12:39:24 <Pikka> it's a callback that runs whenever the purchase list is opened (and, possibly preferably if a "vehicle count" var is included, when a vehicle is purchased)
12:39:37 <Pikka> so it's dynamic, yes
12:39:53 <Alberth> the program needs to know either way, or it would not be able to hand it over to the NewGRF. My problem is why pass it on to the NewGRF, as it does not seem to do more than just do what the program already knows
12:40:30 <Pikka> I don't understand what you're saying
12:40:57 <Pikka> it seems to me like "the program already handles the speed of trains, so why have a speed property for trains in newgrf"
12:40:59 <Alberth> you seem to assume that the program gives you the options what a user can buy, right?
12:41:15 <Pikka> yes
12:41:17 <Eddi|zuHause> internally, there is already a bitmask which companies a vehicle is available to
12:41:36 <Eddi|zuHause> it "just" needs a (monthly?) callback to update this bitmask
12:42:04 <Alberth> what do you do with it in the NewGRF other than not returning those vehicles that are 'forbidden' ?
12:42:14 <Eddi|zuHause> currently that bitmask has one of three states: no company, all companies or one single company
12:42:25 <Pikka> nothing
12:42:40 <Alberth> so why pass it on to the newgrf in the first place?
12:42:47 <Alberth> let the program handle it
12:42:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: you could force EMU wagons available when a "master" vehicle is available, without delays or prototpye phases
12:43:04 <Pikka> okay
12:43:18 <Pikka> but the newgrf needs to be able to tell the program which vehicles are forbidden, right?
12:43:42 <Eddi|zuHause> and (lacking vehicle "views") it could make several versions of a vehicle available with one single prototype
12:43:54 <Alberth> (01:53:22 PM) Pikka: it seems to me like "the program already handles the speed of trains, so why have a speed property for trains in newgrf" <-- this is subtly different, the newgrf states the proprty values (ie max speed), the program handles the actual speed
12:44:08 <Pikka> yes
12:44:25 <Pikka> and in this case the newgrf states whether a vehicle should be shown, and the program actually shows it (or not)
12:44:57 <Alberth> but you don't have that data, you ask that from the program as well
12:45:06 <Pikka> wat
12:45:16 <Alberth> ie it's like the program gives you the max speed, and then you return it to the program to use
12:45:32 <Pikka> are you talking about "enabling vehicles as "rewards"", or about the general concept of the callback
12:45:47 <Pikka> ?
12:45:57 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i said, the game already has this data, there is just no NewGRF-y way to set it
12:46:55 <Pikka> the general concept is, the newgrf tells the game whether or not to show a vehicle
12:47:19 <Pikka> "enabling vehicles as "rewards"" is something I have no idea about or interest in, and I shouldn't have put in the feature request. :)
12:47:26 <Alberth> but the newgrf does not add anything to the data given from the program, does it
12:47:26 <andythenorth> potatoes
12:47:34 <andythenorth> newgrf returns 0 or 1
12:47:36 <andythenorth> is all
12:47:43 <andythenorth> according to variables that newgrf can access
12:47:56 <andythenorth> how that works with GS is brain-ache
12:48:02 <Eddi|zuHause> the callback result would be the 15-bit bitmask
12:48:11 <Eddi|zuHause> one bit for each company
12:48:16 <Pikka> no it isn't
12:48:23 <Pikka> because no-one's thinking about how that works with GS
12:48:26 <Pikka> GS can go jump
12:48:46 <andythenorth> brain-ache solved
12:48:47 <andythenorth> simples
12:48:55 <Alberth> GS is a different problem imho
12:49:03 <Pikka> yes
12:49:09 <Pikka> but not one I'm interested in
12:49:22 * Pikka should rewrite the feature request without added greebles, perhaps?
12:49:49 <Alberth> or with some clarifications
12:50:26 <Alberth> and it is fine to say that you expect some stuff to happen outside the newgrf, but it should be clear imho
12:50:38 <Pikka> it's a little annoying that you can't edit posts on flyspray
12:50:46 <Pikka> I don't expect anything to happen outside the newgrf :)
12:51:20 <Alberth> the world ends at the newgrf boundary :p
12:52:22 <andythenorth> herp GS.
12:52:32 <andythenorth> is supposed to be completely decoupled from any newgrf
12:52:40 <andythenorth> so 'rewards' would be insanely hard
12:53:15 <Eddi|zuHause> can't possibly be done with some (AI Callback) communication layer
12:54:22 <Pikka> there :)
12:55:06 <Pikka> removed any GS or AI references
12:55:45 <Pikka> and
12:56:00 <Pikka> I requested the wrong one to be closed, oops :)
12:57:04 <Pikka> flysprayman, please fix my mistake, I accidentally requested closure on :O
12:59:38 <Alberth> fixed :)
12:59:55 <Pikka> you typo'd the link in the closure message for 5467 though ;)
13:00:05 <Pikka> 4571 instead of 5471
13:00:14 <andythenorth> everyone should have coffee
13:00:24 * Pikka has had whiskey
13:00:27 <Pikka> coffee would be good
13:00:33 <Alberth> adding a new description to the existing one would have been easier :)
13:00:57 <Pikka> but I can't edit it, and a new description in the comments would be overlooked
13:01:09 <Pikka> or at least, people would not stop paying attention to the distracting stuff :)
13:01:55 <Alberth> thanks for noting my typo
13:06:12 <andythenorth> is whiskey a Brisbane obsession?
13:06:21 <andythenorth> or do I just happen to know whiskey-fanciers?
13:06:34 <Pikka> I thought it was a universal obsession?
13:06:51 <Pinkbeast> Here we are obsessed with whisky
13:06:54 <Pikka> or at least amongst gentlefolk of taste and distinction
13:07:03 <Flygon> Brisbane is full of irishmen
13:07:06 <Flygon> Apperantly
13:07:17 * Flygon is a Victorian... sooo, at least 87% Irish
13:08:07 <Pikka> most brisbanites drink either rum and coke or the cheapest possible beer, in my experience.
13:09:51 <Flygon> When I went to Brisbane... I nearly got ran over by Bicycle taxi's
13:09:58 <Pikka> eddi, a) didn't I already say that, and b) "circumventing the builtin randomisation", GEE THANKS FOR THAT.
13:10:06 <Flygon> My Tram-dodging skills are worthless
13:10:35 <Flygon> But yet
13:10:43 <Flygon> Every single Brisbanite I met was very kind
13:11:38 <Flygon> The lack of Asians was discerning, though
13:11:41 <Flygon> Anyway, dishes time
13:12:24 <Pikka> "The lack of Asians was discerning"?...
13:13:50 <Snail> pikka: concerning your proposal, it would be interesting to put engines in "groups
13:13:50 <Snail> "
13:14:12 <Snail> and then allow company A to have engines of group 1, company B would have engines of group 2 etc
13:15:00 <Pikka> that's basically what I'm proposing it for, Snail
13:15:49 <Snail> next step could be to only have some refits available for certain companies
13:16:21 <Snail> like, in my set, certain vehicles are available in multiple historical companies' liveries (through a refit to "0 passengers")
13:16:22 <Alberth> what worries me a lot is how to handle the dynamics of it; how to decide when to redraw the buy menu?
13:16:32 <andythenorth> "you only get to haul grain, you lucky bugger"
13:16:42 <Snail> so it would be interesting if the same ID would be available for all, but each in-game company would only have certain refits
13:16:43 <andythenorth> "but you have the exclusive contract on it"
13:17:22 <Alberth> andythenorth: \o/
13:17:43 <Alberth> although I prefer hauling woody products :)
13:17:59 <andythenorth> Alberth: see, the newgrf could do that
13:18:07 <Pikka> Snail: you can already do liveries by company, can't you? :)
13:18:18 <andythenorth> but it would be better if GS could control that, for laughs
13:18:33 <andythenorth> but I can't see how it can possibly done in detail
13:18:44 <andythenorth> and it has a bazillion edge cases
13:18:52 <Alberth> obviously, the GS needs an interface to the program bits, and the program gives those bits to the newgrf
13:19:11 <andythenorth> hard to communicate intention though?
13:19:25 <andythenorth> my case is pretty simple, but could explode easily
13:19:32 <Alberth> probably harder than I think :(
13:19:44 <andythenorth> for example, all locomotives might carry a cargo
13:19:50 <andythenorth> so you ban everything but grain for player 1
13:19:55 <andythenorth> and player 1 has no locomotives :P
13:20:00 <Snail> pikka: yes, but, if we restrict some in-game companies to just a few historical liveries, each in-game player would need to have access to just certain liveries. I don't know if that's possible as things are now
13:20:38 <Pikka> Alberth, when to draw the buy menu? on opening or on a vehicle becoming available or disappearing, as now.
13:20:51 <andythenorth> mark dirty, redraw
13:20:57 <andythenorth> how often does cb fire?
13:21:30 <andythenorth> 256 ticks?
13:21:34 <andythenorth> monthly?
13:21:35 <andythenorth> daily?
13:21:39 <Alberth> Pikka: so eg buying a new engine in the spring only is not possible, eg?
13:21:58 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: there is already enough dynamics for "redrawing the menu"... it will be exactly like existing mechanics of adding/removing vehicles from the list
13:21:59 <Pinkbeast> "disconcerting" shurely
13:22:05 <Alberth> (fine with me, but that kind of uncertainties make newgrf very complicated to handle
13:22:07 <Pikka> I was going to continue... :P
13:22:19 <andythenorth> distractionals :P
13:22:58 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: "complicated to handle" is certainly the GRF author's problem to explain it correctly
13:23:00 <Pikka> that yes, it would need updating any time a vehicle changed its callback result. I don't know how difficult that would be because I don't know the details of how OpenTTD is coded.
13:23:19 <andythenorth> well the vehicle only changes result when cb runs :)
13:23:25 <Pikka> yes
13:23:33 <Eddi|zuHause> i think the callback should be called in regular intervals (once a month)
13:23:45 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: no, it's an openttd interfacing problem, as the program must handle all possibilities
13:23:49 <andythenorth> needs a news message :P
13:23:50 <Pikka> well, I suppose then it depends what vars you want to be available in the callback
13:24:05 <andythenorth> all of them | fewer
13:24:24 <andythenorth> do we trust newgrf authors to not do batshit crazy stuff with 'all vars' available?
13:24:40 <Pikka> the var I suggested in the feature request, to count vehicles, would mean it happened every time anyone bought or sold a vehicle
13:24:46 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: no it's not a problem, because if you hook the callback into the function that currently updates the availability, no further flexibility is needed at all
13:24:59 <Eddi|zuHause> all the infrastructure is already there
13:25:19 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: but you don't want to call it unless absolotely necessary
13:25:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: why?
13:25:49 <Alberth> newgrf handling is one of the slowest things in the program
13:26:03 <Eddi|zuHause> for a once-per-month check?
13:26:15 <Eddi|zuHause> ok, once-per-month-per-vehicle
13:26:28 <andythenorth> ugh, imagine a newgrf that chains through the vars of 64 other vehicles before returning a result :P
13:26:33 <Eddi|zuHause> or possibly twice (one in a "prototype mode" and one in a "available mode"
13:27:25 <andythenorth> do it same as industry produce
13:27:37 <andythenorth> 8x month
13:27:44 <andythenorth> but meh, too fine-grained
13:31:10 * Pikka would be happy with the callback running when the list is opened, when a vehicle is introduced or expires, and when the player builds or sells a vehicle. that would do me.
13:33:00 <Pikka> when /any/ player's vehicle count changes would be a bonus.:)
13:34:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: i think that's somewhat overkill.
13:39:20 <Alberth> I don't see the use of that, tbh; it assumes you understand how a user plays the game
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13:42:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: you might want a separate "allow purchase" callback that is run when a vehicle is bought
13:44:55 <Pikka> it assumes you understand how a user plays the game?
13:45:33 <Pikka> well, if the vehicle count var was included, you could use it to limit the number of a particular type of vehicle
13:45:52 <Alberth> and how do you know that's good for the user?
13:46:08 <Pikka> gah
13:46:20 <Alberth> maybe I like building on mountains, and your X engine is perfect for it
13:46:44 <Alberth> and now the grf doesn't give me a 4th engine !
13:47:07 <Pikka> now we're back to lakie's "you'll do horrible things to the player" argument
13:47:23 <Alberth> so what is the purpose then?
13:48:09 <Alberth> why can a player only have 3 engines of some type, for example?
13:49:08 <Pikka> well, one potential purpose, as I suggested to mb in the thread, would be to incorporate "set selection" into the gameplay
13:50:03 <Pikka> if the game is that one player has blue engines and one player has green engines, one way to determine which player plays blue and which player plays green that's easier to set up - for the player - than a parameter or whatever would be
13:50:22 <Pikka> for one player to simply build an engine of the colour they wanted, and then they get that colour
13:50:55 <Pikka> but like I've said, I wouldn't be /terribly/ disappointed if these vars didn't make it
13:51:42 <Alberth> so you need vehicle counts of all vehicles of all players in such a case
13:52:05 <Pikka> possibly
13:52:19 <Pikka> I can't really explain why can a player only have 3 engines of some type
13:52:38 <Alberth> neither can I :)
13:52:44 <Pikka> I can't forsee every possible grf that anyone could wish to make, and don't really want to waste much time trying
13:53:55 <Pikka> I'd be very happy with a callback, with a very limited number of vars available, which updated only on window opening and vehicle introduction and expiry, if that's all the OpenTTD devs feel willing or able to provide
13:58:47 <Pikka> Alberth: I'm writing up a precise spec of what I would like in the forum thread right now, give me 10 minutes.
13:59:23 <Eddi|zuHause> "window opening" is not going to happen
13:59:39 <Eddi|zuHause> alone for multiplayer-issues
14:01:21 <Alberth> add a link to the issue, so it can be found again
14:01:28 <Pikka> will do
14:07:49 <Pikka> huh, what do you know
14:07:57 <Pikka> there's only one var to check. :P
14:08:46 <Pikka> maybe a few globals too
14:09:51 <Alberth> I don't know :)
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14:22:54 <Belugas> hello
14:23:28 <Pikka> hello Belugas
14:23:39 <Pikka> how's that?
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14:29:05 <Meechmunchie> hi =)
14:30:12 <Alberth> hi sir B
14:31:32 <Alberth> Pikka: seems simple enough, although given my lack of knowledge about newgrfs, that does not mean much :)
14:32:22 <Belugas> hello PierreW and Alberth :)
14:36:26 <Belugas> PierreW? naaaa... Pikka
14:36:36 <Belugas> sorry... wrong tab completion...
14:36:38 <Pikka> him too
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14:49:15 <andythenorth> Pikka: no controversy in that post :)
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14:49:28 <andythenorth> meanwhile, coxx doesn't want to stab me about FISH / Squid
14:49:31 <andythenorth> at least so far :)
14:49:35 <Pikka> how rare
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14:54:03 <andythenorth> Pikka:
14:54:11 <andythenorth> fwiw :)
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14:55:16 <Pikka> fancy
14:56:27 <andythenorth> livestock ship
14:56:58 <andythenorth> refittable capacity. 200 (inhumane), 400 (adequate), 600 (bovine luxury)
14:57:05 <andythenorth> oops, wrong way round :)
14:57:09 <Pikka> yes
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15:07:49 <oskari89> Andythenorth: That's quite nice list of ships :)
15:07:57 <oskari89> Be sure to include them all :)
15:12:31 * Belugas searches for a distortion pedal. one that has a warm and not too aggressive sound
15:12:41 <Belugas> oops... sorry, wrong channel
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15:20:16 <andythenorth> oskari89: that's the 30 limit :)
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15:37:54 <oskari89> Andythenorth: That Huanghai tanker reminds of that ship :)
15:39:12 <oskari89> (Liparus)
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15:42:03 <andythenorth> I won't be coding the submarine + explosion feature ;)
15:42:11 <oskari89> :D
15:43:38 <oskari89> Submarine could be nice for passenger transport, your opponents couldn't see it unless it's on loading/unloading on dock :)
15:44:13 <Eddi|zuHause> everybody knows that submarines are for drug smuggling
15:44:31 <oskari89> And you wouldn't see it yourself too, and don't know where it is, unless you would look at the ship list and click there
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16:24:59 <Alberth> but there is already a submarine in the game
16:25:14 <andythenorth> and an explosion
16:25:20 <andythenorth> ho ho
16:25:32 <andythenorth> I just worked out that I can code NewDisasters specific to industries
16:25:37 <andythenorth> no newgrf spec change needed
16:25:49 <andythenorth> did someone do that in an industry grf already?
16:25:54 <andythenorth> plague of locusts, and crap like that?
16:27:57 <andythenorth> also
16:28:11 <andythenorth> 'your industry closed for 3 months due to statistics made up on the spot'
16:28:31 <NGC3982> Evening
16:28:31 <Alberth> it should be called BOOM, but that does not contain a D :(
16:28:35 <Alberth> evenink
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16:29:10 <Alberth> a thunderbird fly-by :)
16:30:06 <andythenorth> I miss what's so hard about p*kka's cb proposal :P
16:30:16 <andythenorth> conceptually, not the implementation :P
16:30:28 <andythenorth> the aim is in MP, to provide a different set of vehicles to each player
16:30:30 <andythenorth> easy right?
16:31:09 <Alberth> I mostly fail to see the need for newgrf for such a thing
16:32:51 <Alberth> ie, you're hard-coding in the set that your set may only be used by one player, instead of letting a higher level decide that, so the vehicles themselves are more generally usable.
16:33:22 <Alberth> "ie every player can use 2 countries" or whatever
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16:33:30 <Alberth> he's back!
16:33:55 <Alberth> Tvel: we've reserved a little parking space to the right that
16:33:58 <Alberth> *there
16:34:24 <Tvel> Uh?
16:35:10 <Alberth> you flew over one time earlier :)
16:36:15 * Alberth goes hunting some food
16:36:42 <Tvel> Oh yeah, Windows crashed really strange.
16:38:34 <Tvel> In the middle of something important of course
16:39:40 <Eddi|zuHause> everything you do is important...
16:39:57 <oskari89> Windows usually crashes when least expected
16:40:12 <oskari89> And when the most important work is going on, yes
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16:59:40 <andythenorth> Alberth: maybe it shouldn't be a newgrf thing
17:00:02 <andythenorth> but I don't see how openttd would know which vehicles to provide from the grf
17:00:04 <andythenorth> herp
17:00:10 <andythenorth> groups?
17:00:22 <andythenorth> static prop?
17:00:31 <andythenorth> not what pikka wants though
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17:00:46 <andythenorth> 'this vehicle is in group xyz'
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17:39:56 <Alberth> isn't that just another form of the difficulties of communication between GS and NewGRF ?
17:40:36 <andythenorth> yes absolutely
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18:08:00 <Alberth> o/
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18:25:33 <LordAro> \o
18:31:56 <planetmaker> moin
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18:49:15 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24988 /trunk/src/lang (5 files) (2013-02-11 18:49:03 UTC)
18:49:16 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:49:17 <DorpsGek> greek - 53 changes by Evropi
18:49:18 <DorpsGek> hebrew - 24 changes by yitzc
18:49:19 <DorpsGek> hungarian - 1 changes by IPG
18:49:20 <DorpsGek> korean - 1 changes by telk5093
18:49:21 <DorpsGek> slovak - 10 changes by greem
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18:57:50 <andythenorth> ho ho
18:58:06 <andythenorth> bikeshedding, but new forum topic for Squid, or retitle FISH topic?
18:59:19 <planetmaker> squid = fish2? Or what?
18:59:37 <planetmaker> and... why?
19:02:03 <andythenorth> why change the direction of the set, or why arse about changing the name of a well known newgrf? :)
19:04:37 <Alberth> call it hsif :)
19:05:58 <andythenorth> pronounceable :P
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19:07:32 <planetmaker> well... I know what made you use the big wood cutter on your sets... not sure I completely agree with the reasons, but not my decision
19:08:09 <planetmaker> thus renaming depends on whether you consider it to fill the same NewGRF nieche or rather not
19:08:21 <Alberth> srif is worse to pronounce :p
19:09:35 <planetmaker> andythenorth, the difference is: P1kka makes new sets (or so I understand) and designing them from scratch. Thus cutting away vehicles doesn't ... cut it ;-)
19:09:44 <Alberth> andythenorth: new topic iff you won't change a bit in fish from now until forever, imho
19:09:55 <planetmaker> yes ^
19:10:31 <andythenorth> I guess the reason I consider leaving FISH separate is that someone else might pick it up
19:10:46 <Prof_Frink> Super happy integrated transport set.
19:11:06 <andythenorth> you should do one for GIGGLES too
19:11:11 <andythenorth> they could go together
19:11:21 <planetmaker> giggles?
19:11:28 <Alberth> FISH would be more findable at the forum when you make a new topic
19:11:39 <andythenorth> yeah
19:11:43 <planetmaker> yes, if you do a re-disgin, give the baby a new name
19:11:46 <planetmaker> *design
19:11:50 <andythenorth> I kind of worry about 'where did FISH go'
19:12:02 <andythenorth> just renaming FISH is kind of silly imho
19:12:07 <planetmaker> quite
19:12:11 <Alberth> it didn't go anywhere, it's still there, isn't it?
19:12:50 <andythenorth> yes
19:13:04 <andythenorth> I'm also going to *not* make the new incompatible
19:13:12 <andythenorth> and I'm going to rename all ships to reduce confusion
19:13:16 <andythenorth> so they could be used together
19:13:18 <planetmaker> if you want to make NewGRFs in the onion shape: start new ones. completely new ones
19:13:47 <andythenorth> well
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19:14:07 <andythenorth> I would, but drawing ships is so painful
19:14:20 <planetmaker> No-one said you can't re-use some graphics ;-)
19:14:30 <andythenorth> oh well
19:14:37 <andythenorth> so squid - started with clean sheet of paper
19:14:51 <andythenorth> some of the graphics and stats are same / similar
19:14:55 <andythenorth> some are not
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19:17:15 <andythenorth> bearing in mind also that Squid is a rethink of FISH 2
19:17:28 <andythenorth> which was quite different to FISH, and quite...poorly designed
19:19:39 <Alberth> so it's actually fish 3 :)
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19:21:45 <Wolf01> snowy hello
19:21:50 <Supercheese> Salvete
19:21:56 <planetmaker> hi Supercheese
19:22:07 <supermop> hi
19:22:16 <Alberth> hi Wolf01
19:22:50 <andythenorth> Alberth: only if Toy Story is really Toy Story 2 :P
19:22:53 <Alberth> it's snowing here too, but very slowly, you can count the snow flakes
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19:25:54 <Terkhen> hello
19:26:02 <Alberth> hello Terkhen
19:30:02 <__ln__> i just watched Inglourious Basterds... it's mostly in german and french, less than half of it in english. did they dub it for the US or UK?
19:31:18 <planetmaker> It snowed somewhat all weekend. Rather less than more. But enough to make driving somewhat painful on Saturday. But got better the more we got away from home... though near Vienna it snowed quite a bit, too
19:34:22 <__ln__> and now for some chemistry:
19:36:49 <Markk> __ln__: :D
19:36:53 <Markk> Nomnomnom
19:37:08 <planetmaker> outch, __ln__ :-)
19:41:12 <Supercheese> That is some expensive cereal
19:42:14 * andythenorth pub
19:42:25 <andythenorth> is it Calamari Time?
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20:14:15 <Supercheese> Push/pull trians eh
20:14:18 <Supercheese> trains*
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20:42:54 <fjb_mobile> Moin.
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22:35:21 <Eddi|zuHause> [11.02.2013 20:08] <Alberth> srif is worse to pronounce :p <-- actually i find it easier :)
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22:36:46 <NGC3982> id law to pruneunse stoofs.
22:37:11 <Bad_Brett> are there any childsprite experts here?
22:38:00 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: english only! :p
22:38:07 <NGC3982> hey u lol
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22:39:56 <Wolf01> 'night
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22:40:04 <andythenorth> Squid, Salt and Chili
22:40:27 <NGC3982> That does not sound like your average recipe, no.
22:40:31 <Eddi|zuHause> let me know when you arrived at Mett
22:41:15 <andythenorth> ^^ not a newgrf :P
22:41:19 <andythenorth> ate it
22:41:29 <andythenorth> very very good
22:41:46 <Supercheese> Bad_Brett: childsprites are annoying. Workable, but annoying
22:42:01 <Eddi|zuHause> typically doesn't include horse meat either :p
22:42:03 <Supercheese> Well, sprite alignment in general
22:42:20 * andythenorth -> bed
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22:42:54 <Eddi|zuHause> *miau*
22:42:54 <Bad_Brett> are you talking about rigor mortis stew?
22:44:54 <Bad_Brett> Supercheese: the x-offsets are working but the y-offsets are messed up. i set the y-offset to 0 for all sprites but i still couldn't find a pattern
22:45:20 <Supercheese> Yeah, I found the same problem when doing my object set
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22:45:45 <Eddi|zuHause> Bad_Brett: if you run over a deer and don't report it, it's a crime over here
22:46:01 <Supercheese> You can kind of cheat by adjusting the actual spriteset offsets rather than the spritelayout offsets
22:46:12 <Supercheese> since spriteset offsets are much saner
22:46:21 <Bad_Brett> Yeah, but we live in Europe :)
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22:46:52 <Eddi|zuHause> especially if you take it home...
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22:48:47 <Zuu> Eddi|zuHause: I though it was a crime not to report if you hit a (larger) animal with your car
22:49:10 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what i said
22:49:11 <Bad_Brett> i haven't even set the spritelayout offsets...
22:49:26 <NGC3982> Mew mew mew meuew.
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22:49:30 <Zuu> Ah, I missed the "don't"' :-)
22:49:45 <NGC3982> Cat in a Mac, Opus I by NGC3982.
22:50:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Cam in iMac is a palindrome
22:50:38 <NGC3982> Cum in iMuc?
22:51:17 <Bad_Brett> most apple fans do that every day
22:51:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm really glad i don't know (of) any such people :p
22:51:59 * NGC3982 breaks into the business as a classical composer.
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23:27:31 <Bad_Brett> ok can anyone explain this to me?
23:28:15 <Bad_Brett> the very same childsprite has the same offsets on the two houses
23:29:38 <Bad_Brett> it surely can't be the distance from the top-left corner of the parent
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23:36:47 <Eddi|zuHause> that is far outside my area of expertise, sorry
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23:40:10 <Bad_Brett> oh well... i guess i'll search the forums
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23:46:12 <Eddi|zuHause> that's probably a better place to ask your question than trying to find someone to speak to here at this hour
23:51:21 <Bad_Brett> hehe
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23:51:42 <Bad_Brett> but supercheese has saves me a couple of times
23:51:47 <Bad_Brett> *saved
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