IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-02-10
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00:33:09 <Supercheese> Oh good grief, my farms are now waaaaaaaay overproducing
00:33:23 <Supercheese> Never going to be able to handle these production levels -_-
00:36:43 <peter1138> what happens at simuscape stays at simuscape
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00:59:13 <Supercheese> I really should stop building terminus stations, ro-ro all the way [gently down the stream]
01:17:10 <Flytgon> In my North America scenario, I use both extensively
01:17:26 <Flytgon> Terminuses where multiple lines conjoin
01:17:58 <Flytgon> Ro-Ro for where I want trains to stop into a town (and express through tracks in the middle)
01:18:23 <Flytgon> There is also dead-stop terminuses for end of lines... so, for example
01:19:00 <Flytgon> I end up with some lines ending abruptly, then I build on, and I'll have a very fancy station for a tiny town that trains can short-stop at to handle demand on parts of the route that have more passengers
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01:21:35 <Pikka> peter1138, it's gratifying to see that, so far at least, everyone is ignoring that thread :)
01:22:35 <Guest1252> it was aviation 8 grf?
01:23:40 <Pikka> try asking the question from the beginning
01:37:40 <Supercheese> We may never know what he really meant...
02:07:55 <Supercheese> too bad the covered carriage truck can't refit to food :(
02:08:45 <Supercheese> was hoping to autorefit to livestock at the farm, autorefit to food at the stockyard, but nope
02:49:27 <Supercheese> Well, my train line is far exceeded capacity, time to replace it with canals
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04:27:05 <Supercheese> Yikes, Pikkawiki is getting the (Beeching?) axe
04:28:04 <Supercheese> fortunately wikis save old content
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06:41:16 <Supercheese> Well, all the old 4-2-2 Spinners have been retired and replaced by 4-4-0 Edwardians, save for one, the very first loco I purchased, it's gone to the Supercheese Railway Museum
07:10:23 <Supercheese> Maybe I should start a screenshot thread...
07:11:47 <Supercheese> Also, you seem to have picked up an extra "t" in your IRC name :P
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07:13:31 <Supercheese> you're welcome :)
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08:17:41 <andythenorth> designing ship progression is tedious
08:18:01 <Supercheese> I like how FISH does it
08:18:02 <andythenorth> is that NARS 2 generations thing really so bad?
08:18:11 <Pikka> whatcha got? doing it in a spreadsheet?
08:18:27 <andythenorth> it's easy for the big stuff
08:18:40 <andythenorth> but around 100t, you never want bigger
08:18:48 <andythenorth> bigger just screws with the routes you have set up
08:18:57 <andythenorth> and faster isn't much option with ships
08:19:00 <Pikka> you can do graphical generations, that's no problem
08:19:13 <Pikka> just don't do stat generations on one ID, it's terrible
08:21:02 <Pikka> gonna do shipspeed parameter? ;)
08:23:09 <andythenorth> so, 100t puffer-sized ship
08:23:15 <andythenorth> 1 model for 150 years, different graphics?
08:23:29 <andythenorth> or 2 models, switching to diesel at 1940 or so?
08:23:46 <Pikka> any particular reason to change model?
08:24:03 <Pikka> if you're not changing stats, may as well just have one
08:24:10 <andythenorth> might be a bit faster, maybe cheaper
08:24:18 <andythenorth> also building the same ship over and over gets boring
08:24:37 <andythenorth> 'upgrade' is one of the gameplay activities no?
08:24:43 <andythenorth> upgrading is fun?
08:24:55 <andythenorth> it's like going shopping
08:25:21 <Supercheese> Research and development!
08:25:26 <Supercheese> I dunno why people always want that :|
08:25:57 <Pikka> also, do I need a container flat? I suppose I do.
08:26:02 <andythenorth> same reason they like birthday presents
08:26:09 <andythenorth> Pikka: don't stint on wagons :P
08:26:16 <andythenorth> too few wagons is boring
08:26:24 <andythenorth> or just do one 'universal wagon'
08:26:40 <Pikka> if I include a container wagon
08:26:48 <Supercheese> Wagon that can autorefit to anything
08:27:39 <Supercheese> Have the 'wagon' just change graphics based on cargo
08:27:49 <Supercheese> Hoppers if coal, tankers if oil
08:28:01 <Pikka> bearing in mind that each of those eight, across half a dozen country sets, all cargos, railtypes and eras from 1900 to 20something
08:28:01 <Supercheese> Just say 'well, I'm simulating shunting/recoupling other wagons'
08:28:12 <Pikka> is going to end up with about 50 graphic variations :)
08:28:20 <andythenorth> do we mind if wagons / barges / truck trailers change appearance totally when autorefitting?
08:28:28 <andythenorth> BANDIT has to do it I think
08:28:32 <andythenorth> I could do it in FISH
08:28:36 <Supercheese> Esp since it happens like mad in this game
08:28:44 <Pikka> maybe we don't mind if truck trailers change?
08:28:54 <Pikka> we probably mind if ships change
08:28:55 <Supercheese> It simulates changing trailers
08:29:03 <Supercheese> Like the wagons above
08:29:12 <Supercheese> Ships, less analogy, but who cares
08:29:26 <Supercheese> autorefit is boss
08:30:06 <Pikka> we probably also mind if train wagons change, but then we probably already have plans to work around that via prop 25...
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08:30:39 <andythenorth> good old prop 25
08:31:05 <andythenorth> special hax for trains
08:31:15 <andythenorth> just remove the other transport types :|
08:31:40 <Pikka> just get peeter to add it to ships, no worries
08:31:48 <andythenorth> I've been told no before
08:32:23 <andythenorth> or I'm imagining that
08:32:38 <andythenorth> certainly we all got bored of discussing it :P
08:32:39 <Pikka> why does your ship look different for different cargos anyway
08:32:47 <Pikka> make tankers seperate models
08:33:00 <andythenorth> tank barges are the thing in question
08:33:09 <andythenorth> why not allow a tank barge swap?
08:33:17 *** Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
08:36:59 <andythenorth> right, family stuff to do
08:37:05 <andythenorth> Pikka 'til next time :P
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09:53:31 <Pikka> peter why won't you do prop 25 for ships for andy
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10:18:21 <Eddi|zuHause> ".gs ist die länderspezifische Top-Level-Domain (ccTLD) von Südgeorgien und der Südlichen Sandwichinseln."
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10:41:49 <Pikka> they don't make Sdlichen Sandwichinseln like they used to.
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11:29:16 <peter1138> what the hell is "Transport Tycoon - Hall of Fame..."
11:29:20 <peter1138> posted by "Simuscape Team"
11:42:25 <Alberth> a way to advertise for simuscape?
11:43:24 <peter1138> This post has already been reported.
11:43:33 <peter1138> i wonder what it's reported for
11:45:08 <Alberth> I wondered whether you can have a "team" account at tt-forums :)
11:54:09 <Flygon> I might have compacted a bit in USA again
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12:26:02 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: the FOX News version of civilization might have such a thing :p
12:26:44 <Flygon> Fox News version of Civilization: All wars are over Iraqi Oi- er nukes
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13:00:03 * andythenorth wonders who to vote for in TT hall of fame
13:03:29 <jonty-comp> who the hell is he?
13:14:29 <Flygon> Vote for Flygon! Most obnoxious Pokemon Ty- I could never ever win that one, actually. :B
13:23:10 <Prof_Frink> andythenorth: Josef Drexler, of course.
13:36:35 <andythenorth> my new ship set has more slots free than I can fill :P
13:37:44 <andythenorth> it has a specific philosophy I'm working to :)
13:37:49 <andythenorth> I must abide by the rules :P
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13:38:32 <Prof_Frink> Does it have ekranoplans?
13:43:12 <andythenorth> that stupid Island Trader keeps trying to get back into my set
13:44:38 <frosch123> isn't that the ship which can be clarified as fastest and biggest?
13:46:17 <andythenorth> but fastest and a very convenient size
13:46:31 <andythenorth> big != best for ships I've found
13:46:48 <oskari89> Andythenorth: push-tugboats coming?
13:47:26 <andythenorth> I don't think so anyway
13:50:06 <andythenorth> maybe I could talk myself into it
13:51:22 <andythenorth> maybe I should do a 1900 start
13:51:25 <andythenorth> and only have 20 ships
13:52:12 <andythenorth> instead of 1870 with 30 ships
13:53:18 <andythenorth> pikka is going a bit extreme with this 10cc, 100 year thing :)
14:04:27 <andythenorth> ha, managed to keep the Island Trader out
14:08:02 <Alberth> expect questions to be raised about it :)
14:11:11 <andythenorth> so long as I ignore realistic ship speeds, all will be well
14:11:18 <andythenorth> realism is too limiting for ships :P
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14:13:15 <Alberth> realism is heavily overrated :)
14:15:49 <oskari89> Andythenorth: F1 boats for small island towns? ;)
14:27:28 <oskari89> Cost for buying that class of ship could be astronomical in OpenTTD though :)
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14:40:43 <andythenorth> oskari89: what would you do with that ship in game?
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15:17:18 <andythenorth> TTD sea isn't really sea, right?
15:17:23 <andythenorth> more like puget sound or something
15:25:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i think you'll have to elaborate on this reasoning
15:26:25 <Eddi|zuHause> "TTD monorail isn't really monorail, more like disneyland or something"
15:28:17 <andythenorth> in short, do I need to draw bow doors on a ro-ro ferry?
15:28:24 <andythenorth> waves tend to sink them
15:29:11 <oskari89> andythenorth: Yes, doors are nice :)
15:29:12 <Eddi|zuHause> canal ferries without doors, sea ferries with doors
15:29:49 <Eddi|zuHause> and animate the doors on loading :)
15:30:41 <frosch123> we need a industry grf providing a salt water cargo
15:30:49 <frosch123> i would love to transport that with ships
15:31:32 <Eddi|zuHause> ballast water, because ships become unstable if they run empty
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15:54:13 <andythenorth> livestock ship or reefer ship: pick one
15:54:52 <peter1138> general purpose mixed-cargo ship
15:55:26 <andythenorth> rm livestock ship && rm reefer
16:12:05 <andythenorth> refittable capacity on container ships
16:12:10 <andythenorth> trade speed for capacity
16:12:12 <frosch123> did you find your ship?
16:12:29 <andythenorth> I am short one pax ship
16:12:41 <andythenorth> I have a gap in my table, but no gap in gameplay :P
16:12:55 <frosch123> how can there be a gap between a single ship?
16:13:06 <frosch123> you need two items to have a gap between them
16:13:12 <andythenorth> empty row in the table
16:13:16 <andythenorth> one not filled :P
16:13:34 <frosch123> oh, you mean if the purchase list has only one item, there are many empty rows
16:13:43 <frosch123> yeah, i agree ottd should not display the list then
16:13:45 <frosch123> and just build the ship
16:15:35 <andythenorth> stern wheel paddle steamer?
16:16:25 *** kais58|AFK is now known as kais58_
16:17:18 <Eddi|zuHause> remind me that i won't ever let andythenorth touch any of my tracking tables
16:17:28 <andythenorth> don't let pikka either
16:17:38 <andythenorth> he's doing the same, only more quietly
16:18:19 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: there are still hopes that andy decides different in a week or so :p
16:19:36 <andythenorth> all of FISH is still there
16:19:41 <andythenorth> I'm not going to rm the repo :P
16:19:58 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i think that's actually the worse part of it all
16:21:49 <andythenorth> maybe I should try for 20 ships
16:21:53 <andythenorth> that would really force the issue
16:22:16 <andythenorth> currently there a few 'nice to have' ships left
16:23:08 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: well, it actually ensures that there is a grf for everyone at some point
16:23:18 <frosch123> you just need to fetch when yours shows up
16:23:33 <andythenorth> this silly rig supply ship isn't needed
16:23:50 <andythenorth> also should I kill one of the hydrofoils? Eddi said they're too unbalanced for the game
16:25:37 <frosch123> just give them proper intro dates
16:25:42 <frosch123> do not introduce them in 1870
16:25:56 <andythenorth> they're 1960 and 1975 or so currently :P
16:44:30 <andythenorth> I don't play past 2020 :P
16:44:36 <andythenorth> design goal is 1870-2020 :)
16:45:13 <andythenorth> but I do wonder about 1900-2000 to match pikka
16:45:23 <andythenorth> do same for HEQS, BANDIT, FIRS
16:45:36 <frosch123> if you restrict to a single year and a single cargo, you can get away with a single ship
16:55:22 <andythenorth> frosch123: so what design goals would you set for a vehicle newgrf? o_O
16:57:14 <frosch123> provide a variety of balanced vehicles which give the player an interesting choice at any point of time
16:57:53 <frosch123> don't try to solve secondary gui issues by limiting the engine selection
16:58:12 <frosch123> except by providing decent retire early values
16:58:23 <frosch123> and by all means play without engines-never-expire
16:59:00 <frosch123> if you play with engines-never-expire and think there are too many choices, then you cannot be helped
16:59:24 <andythenorth> I think buy menu spam is a symptom - smell of a bad pattern
16:59:34 <andythenorth> not a problem in itself
16:59:42 <andythenorth> buy menu spam can be worked around
16:59:56 <andythenorth> but what does buy menu spam say about gameplay balance?
16:59:56 <frosch123> [17:57] <frosch123> don't try to solve secondary gui issues by limiting the engine selection <- this also means to give the player better filter functions in the gui, like that fs task providing company-specific manual retirement
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17:16:31 <Eddi|zuHause> assuming 4 generations of ships (1870, 1920, 1960, 2000), 4 categories (small-river, medium-river, medium-sea, large-sea) and passenger/freight, you get 4*4*2=32 ships
17:16:44 <Eddi|zuHause> without any "buy menu spam"
17:18:05 <Eddi|zuHause> like i said to Pikka, over-minimization may be bad
17:19:26 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I have 30 ships ;)
17:19:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm saying you're trying to solve a problem that is no problem
17:20:01 <Eddi|zuHause> because you're already near the optimal solution
17:20:35 <andythenorth> but as mr. bird has said, TTD managed with 7 ships
17:20:57 <andythenorth> one answer would be: TTD ships were totally lame
17:21:00 <Eddi|zuHause> but as mister bird failed to see, TTD ships were horribly useless
17:21:10 <peter1138> ttd also started in 1950ish
17:21:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure if TTD already had refitting, but TTO had only ships for passengers/mail/coal/oil, and two generations
17:24:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't really play any TTD at all, when i found TTD, there was already TTDPatch 1.7 or so
17:24:37 <frosch123> ttd ships could refit to anything except pax and mail
17:24:44 * peter1138 deletes his copies of BK tunnels on priniciple
17:25:00 <Eddi|zuHause> what does BK stand for, actually?
17:26:11 <peter1138> hmm, 2cc set & 8/32bpp trains are all hidden away :p
17:28:24 <__ln__> Burger King is good, but Jack in the Box is even better.
17:29:28 <NGC3982> Is that a hamburger franchise?
17:30:23 <NGC3982> Neat. Never heard of it.
17:30:43 <NGC3982> Sweden is represented with McDonalds, Burger King, Max and Frasses.
17:30:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i heard the name, but i've never actually seen one
17:31:21 * NGC3982 devoured double-cheeseburgers today.
17:31:43 <NGC3982> Ordering only the burgers are great, but not that economical
17:32:09 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, if OpenTTD ever allows "enhanced tunnel heads", then they should come with builtin sprites that change the tunnel head appearance when something is above it
17:32:17 <NGC3982> Five double-cheeseburgers are like 100SEK (or 15 dollars).
17:32:50 <Eddi|zuHause> you spend 15$ on food?
17:33:24 <Eddi|zuHause> for one fast-food meal?
17:33:43 <NGC3982> Yes. Fast food is not cheap in Sweden.
17:34:00 <NGC3982> A normal menu meal is around 70-80SEK.
17:34:43 <Eddi|zuHause> the most expensive mcdoof meal i've seen was like 7€, the normal menus more like 5€
17:34:57 <Eddi|zuHause> and a Döner costs around 3€
17:35:05 <andythenorth> still can't fill one ship slot :P
17:35:09 <andythenorth> maybe I just do a squid
17:35:14 <andythenorth> or something else silly
17:35:26 <Eddi|zuHause> (the latter one heavily depends on which city you are in, though)
17:35:33 <NGC3982> Correction: Fast food is not as cheap in relative to other foods in Sweden, as in most other countries.
17:36:06 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: A Dner is a little roll of kebab-ish food, right?
17:36:35 <NGC3982> Or does it only define the meat?
17:36:40 <Zuu> NGC3982: I hope you don't call a "kebabrulle" a little roll :-)
17:37:05 <Eddi|zuHause> a "Döner Kebab" means "rotating meat"
17:37:10 <NGC3982> Zuu: My experience tells me that the Swedish Kebabrulle is a bit larger then most similar courses around Europe.
17:37:19 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: Ah, i see.
17:37:58 <Zuu> NGC3982: Ok, I never had a Kebabrulle elsewhere. Actually it is several yeas since the last time I had one at all.
17:38:16 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: But yes, to return to subject, 100SEK and five double cheeseburgers is a lot of money and a lot of food for a fast food meal.
17:38:36 <NGC3982> Though, that is something i can enjoy myself with, during my training.
17:38:51 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: for 15€ you could go to a decent restaurant and get real food
17:39:00 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: Yes, i could. Didn't feel like it, though.
17:39:54 <NGC3982> A good meal of sushi usually ends up at 13-17
17:40:12 <Eddi|zuHause> and a normal sized Döner may cost between 1,50€ in some parts of berlin to 6€ in munich or so
17:40:20 <NGC3982> At least around here. We don't really have fast food (as in 'lower quality') sushi in Kronoberg county.
17:40:48 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: 1,50 is a big city price.
17:41:07 <NGC3982> For most places in Sweden, cheap fast foods are limited to the biggest cities.
17:41:19 <NGC3982> Like the Malm kebab/falaffel.
17:41:25 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: I really don't want to know what I am eating with a 1,50€ Döner though. Ignorance is bliss ;)
17:42:29 <NGC3982> Not comparing what a is worth, a "good" kebab/dner-ish meal in Sweden ends up around 6-9.
17:42:42 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: i think horsemeat would be the least of the problems :p
17:43:00 <frosch123> isn't horsemeat actually more expensive than cow?
17:43:19 <frosch123> horse butchers always appeared like something special to me
17:43:20 <NGC3982> Real horsemeat, made for horsemeat, yes.
17:43:25 <NGC3982> Much, much more expencive.
17:43:48 <frosch123> and horse sausages are usually quite small
17:44:00 <NGC3982> Though, horsemeat as in "that dead horse we want to get rid off" can work out economic wise.
17:44:19 <frosch123> how many dead horses could there be?
17:44:20 <NGC3982> Yes, real horse meat feels like a speciality for me.
17:45:13 <NGC3982> frosch123: Well, the current investigation shows that some Swedish frozen foods contained Romanian horse meat. Maybe they made a deal and bought your-random-local-dead-animal and made meat with it.
17:45:30 <Eddi|zuHause> that's only because there are fewer "horse herds" than "cow herds"
17:45:47 <NGC3982> It's really kind of scary.
17:46:00 <andythenorth> is it going to weird you all out if the appearance of a ship model changes over time? Stats are same
17:46:00 <frosch123> i think some years ago there was some kabab guy discovered, who breeded rats in a room below his restaurant
17:46:12 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes.
17:46:18 <frosch123> like in demolition man :)
17:46:18 <NGC3982> andythenorth: I think so.
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17:46:42 <frosch123> NGC3982: how did they discover that the horse was romanian? :o
17:46:44 <andythenorth> the alternative is a tedious, replace-like-for-like autoreplace, simply because the funnel and hull are slightly different
17:46:54 <NGC3982> frosch123: The meat is imported from Romania.
17:46:57 <NGC3982> frosch123: All of it.
17:48:07 <NGC3982> Seriosly, Stem cell meat.
17:48:23 <Eddi|zuHause> that always puzzled me... there is no sane reason why meat for frozen products needs to be shipped all through europe to be processed
17:48:46 <Eddi|zuHause> so why is it done?
17:48:48 <frosch123> shipping is just too cheap :p
17:48:51 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: because someone put too many refrigerated trucks in a newgrf, and now a purpose must be found :P
17:49:07 <Eddi|zuHause> freeze the meat on site, then ship the frozen products...
17:49:11 <andythenorth> shall I include a dredger for stupidity?
17:49:15 <NGC3982> Shipping within EU is almost for free.
17:49:27 <NGC3982> And Romaian laws (i guess) allow cheaper production.
17:50:11 <NGC3982> Swedish meat production is extremely costly.
17:50:12 <Alberth> and european politicians make weird laws about subsidizing
17:50:44 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: also, it is better to process the stuff in countries where you can ensure the workers that the product is sold somewhere else :p
17:50:44 <__ln__> NGC3982: I don't think Jack in the Box is international, it's western US only.
17:50:47 * Alberth always ignores the subsidies
17:51:16 <NGC3982> Alberth: Took me three years to get the energy to even google the term.
17:52:05 <Eddi|zuHause> 50% of EU funds go to farm subsidies
17:52:26 <Eddi|zuHause> the largest part of that to france, actually
17:52:43 <NGC3982> And we have a lot of food from France.
17:53:06 <andythenorth> hmm how about a bigger fishing boat?
17:53:17 <andythenorth> what's that grf with fishing grounds in?
17:53:23 <NGC3982> andythenorth: Also: A transformer ninja turtle robot.
17:54:29 <andythenorth> so that standard fishing boat is 35t
17:54:57 <andythenorth> but fishing grounds can produce in a range up to 64t / month
17:55:07 <andythenorth> so big trawler...refittable to certain other cargos
17:55:22 <andythenorth> think I've rebalanced everything :)
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18:40:19 * NGC3982 hangs a weight on the left hand.
18:41:56 <Alberth> you don't want balance?
18:42:46 * NGC3982 does feel a bit devilish.
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18:46:49 <oskari89> Someone should write patch for historic statistics on graphical form, such as town population
18:48:17 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24985 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2013-02-10 18:48:04 UTC)
18:48:18 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:48:19 <DorpsGek> korean - 1 changes by telk5093
18:48:20 <DorpsGek> turkish - 21 changes by magnum06
18:48:21 <DorpsGek> ukrainian - 43 changes by Strategy
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19:05:01 <NGC3982> Hey, you guys are fantabulous on logic
19:05:21 <NGC3982> By judging the description; Does the package contain one or two stands?
19:08:01 * andythenorth didn't rebalance *everything*
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19:13:14 <frosch123> NGC3982: it says "set of 2"
19:13:28 <frosch123> so, unless you need two for one monitor, it should be two
19:14:49 <frosch123> ah, it is for speakers, not for displays
19:15:01 <frosch123> so, yeah, then it is a set of two stand for 2 boxes
19:19:04 * NGC3982 cart is so big right now.
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19:49:09 <DorpsGek> Commit by zuu :: r24986 /trunk/src (6 files in 2 dirs) (2013-02-10 19:49:04 UTC)
19:49:10 <DorpsGek> -Change: Cleanup goals and cargo monitors of companies when they go bankrupt or are taken over.
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20:40:59 <andythenorth> so shall I call it FISH 2, SQUID, or 30CC FISH?
20:49:54 <andythenorth> Purchase Indvidual Ships blah blah blah
20:50:25 <Supercheese> Bah, why are recursive acronyms mandatory?
20:50:36 <Supercheese> Oh wait not recursive
20:50:45 <Supercheese> at least not necessarily :P
20:51:06 <andythenorth> Heavy Equipment Set is not recursive ;)
20:51:15 <Supercheese> Yeah, realized that :P
20:52:25 <Supercheese> Pelagic & Inland Ships for Every Situation
20:52:46 <andythenorth> Pisces Is Ships Cut Eviscerated Shortened
20:54:45 <andythenorth> I still prefer SQUID
20:54:59 <andythenorth> FISH has been digested :P
20:55:02 <Supercheese> Lots of things eat fish :P
20:55:33 <Supercheese> What on Earth would SQUID acronym be, though
20:56:03 <andythenorth> Ships Quite Useful Individual Designs
20:56:59 <Supercheese> I think the Cut, Eviscerated, and Shortened more accurately describes the set ;)
21:03:55 * Supercheese never really played DOOM
21:05:29 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24987 trunk/src/train_gui.cpp (2013-02-10 21:05:24 UTC)
21:05:30 <DorpsGek> -Fix: When choosing a train in a depot to attach a newly purchased wagon to, do not consider trains currently moving in and out of the depot.
21:05:32 <Supercheese> What what, no drag&drop Newobject placement yet?
21:06:02 <Supercheese> There should be A Patch For That™
21:16:13 <Eddi|zuHause> $somebody decided that it wouldn't be necessary/useful
21:22:43 <Supercheese> Dutch Road Furniture set needs drag&drop
21:22:56 <Supercheese> Trying to make a motorway is a massive pain without it
21:44:33 <Eddi|zuHause> a newgrf flag to allow dragging in X or Y (or both) directions
21:45:25 <Eddi|zuHause> or recode the newgrf to include longer stretches as single object
21:45:47 <Supercheese> why does it need to be a grf flag?
21:46:05 <Supercheese> then all existing object grfs would have to be updated to set the flag
21:52:11 <andythenorth> so random graphic variation is nice for vehicles
21:52:17 <andythenorth> but how much is too much?
22:01:46 <Pikka> look out, it's andythenorth
22:02:13 <andythenorth> it's pikka chops
22:21:21 <andythenorth> Pikka: 30 ships, done it. Couple that smell bad
22:21:51 <andythenorth> very little model progression
22:22:38 <andythenorth> I'm mostly binning my own sprites though :P
22:22:44 <andythenorth> which might ease the pain
22:23:44 <andythenorth> I considered 20, 1900-2000
22:24:04 <andythenorth> but that's a bit overly militant, with the greatest respect to you and all that sail in you :P
22:24:52 <LordAro> huh. i seem to have lost 4GB of memory...
22:25:36 <andythenorth> Pikka: 'needs' is a strong word
22:26:01 <andythenorth> I would have added an open box wagon, to mix things up a bit
22:26:13 <andythenorth> express car handles mail?
22:26:25 <Pikka> yes, it is the mail/valuables car
22:26:44 <Pikka> goods/food too if you like
22:26:57 <andythenorth> no fridge, right?
22:27:03 <andythenorth> fridges are over-rated
22:27:34 <Pikka> covered will probably look like a fridge if fitted to food, depending on set/era.
22:27:41 <andythenorth> you don't need an open box wagon, but meh
22:28:05 <Pikka> I've said "hopper", it might be boxy depending, again, on graphics :P
22:28:22 <andythenorth> I was thinking gondola / 5 plank
22:28:26 <andythenorth> but there's really no need
22:28:37 <Pikka> there is indeed really no need :]
22:29:32 <Pikka> also, things like "realistically slow" early freight wagons would disadvantage those sets which have speed as their thing.
22:30:01 <andythenorth> 8 is a nice number
22:30:19 <andythenorth> 30CC FISH is on this weird 8 + 2 thing
22:30:52 <andythenorth> 3 x 10CC SQUID EAT FISH
22:30:55 <andythenorth> is my working title
22:31:16 <andythenorth> I need some drawers
22:31:33 <Pikka> I still need to do my ship set some time
22:31:38 <Pikka> just so I can use the name
22:31:46 <andythenorth> I haz spare graphics now
22:31:52 <andythenorth> what's the name?
22:32:12 <andythenorth> sails are gone by 1900 in my view
22:32:19 <andythenorth> at least for all progressive transport empires
22:32:46 <Pikka> even if they were, cool > realistic :P
22:32:52 <andythenorth> so BANDIT....has a few trucks until 1945, then everything after that is a Pete 379 forever more
22:33:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: if you want really minimalistic, you could get away with a "packaged wagon" a "bulk wagon" and a "liquid wagon"
22:33:47 <Pikka> any futuriztik trukz or can the 21st century bugger off?
22:34:00 <Eddi|zuHause> (for the respective cargo classes)
22:34:10 <andythenorth> I see a lot of futuristic concept trucks
22:34:26 <Pikka> if I wanted to be really minimalistic, eddi, I could have one wagon that carries everything
22:34:26 <andythenorth> and then they turn up with a diesel engine, looking like last year's volvo, with new lights
22:34:37 <andythenorth> so what should I use for VERY LARGE FERRY (1600 PAX)
22:35:04 <Pikka> I dunno, do you need one?
22:35:26 <andythenorth> I think they ought to be fun in big cities
22:35:28 <Pikka> you had a big ferry, didn't you?
22:35:37 <andythenorth> yes, this one replaces it
22:35:44 <andythenorth> after 45 years or something
22:35:55 <andythenorth> I always use hydrofoils personally
22:36:05 <Eddi|zuHause> haven't you removed like 5 ferries, just put one back?
22:36:19 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: most of the ferries survived
22:36:26 <andythenorth> they're mostly quite different
22:36:39 <Pikka> I got about as far as planning the ferries for fission
22:36:40 <Zuu> andythenorth: a futuristic ferry that resizes passengers to a 10th of their usual size when on the ferry :-)
22:36:50 <andythenorth> could do a supercat
22:36:54 <Pikka> the first one is actually the largest D:
22:37:17 <Pikka> I should probably swap its capacity with the second one...
22:37:35 <Pikka> that looks a bit better
22:37:48 <Pikka> anyway, the largest ferry I had was 320 pax
22:38:16 <Pikka> which admittedly might be a bit small, especially if people aren't playing with TaI-like towns and small maps :o
22:38:50 <Eddi|zuHause> old fish probably had too many in-between steps
22:39:12 <Eddi|zuHause> there's not much point in having a ship twice the size, just use two ships
22:39:12 <Pikka> it's all about the min/max
22:39:20 <Eddi|zuHause> but 10 times makes a serious difference
22:39:37 <andythenorth> yeah, but 10k pax is rather a lot :P
22:39:45 <Eddi|zuHause> especially if you consider running costs
22:40:42 <andythenorth> Pikka: even TaI can turn out a lot of pax
22:41:07 <andythenorth> won't fit canals :P
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22:43:18 <andythenorth> 1500 pax, sam speed
22:43:44 <Pikka> and not realistic capacity anyway
22:45:18 <andythenorth> I'll put that in for fast freight :P
23:00:19 <andythenorth> Pikka: how much faster would you have ships go? 1.5x ? 2x?
23:00:55 <Pikka> a parameter for up to 2x
23:01:02 <Pikka> so yes, perhaps both 1.5 and 2 as options
23:01:06 <andythenorth> the game should just do it, and lie
23:01:23 <andythenorth> it's going to bug me seeing '36mph' for coasters
23:01:49 <DorpsGek> oskari89: I have not seen as.
23:02:50 <andythenorth> Pikka: according to 10CC rules, you get two more 'wagons' :P
23:02:58 <andythenorth> you have to fill those slots o_O
23:03:26 <Pikka> also what about the 2 monos and 2 maglevs?
23:03:44 <andythenorth> what do they get? 'maglev car'?
23:03:52 <Pikka> they get the same wagons as trains
23:04:45 <Pikka> there might be a parameter to limit them to passengers and express, but there might not.
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23:05:21 <Supercheese> Vacuum tube trains were pax/mail/goods only, and users demanded freight wagons...
23:05:37 <Supercheese> "must ... transport ... coal... at Mach 19
23:05:57 <Superuser> {LTBLUE}- {CARGO_LONG} ({CARGO_SHORT}) (x{NUM})
23:06:05 <Supercheese> Although with a vacuum no speed of sound...
23:06:09 <Superuser> (yes, I'm at it again, hopefull I can finish the last 1k string before ottd 1.3)
23:06:28 <Superuser> × is the multiplication sign in Unicode, not x (that's an x)
23:07:11 <Superuser> this is not the only string affected
23:07:18 <Superuser> there's maybe 10, 20
23:08:35 <Zuu> Superuser: What is the name of that string?
23:08:57 <Superuser> STR_VEHICLE_DETAILS_CARGO_EMPTY
23:09:11 <Superuser> there's quite a few of them, I'd grep for x{NUM}
23:09:22 <Superuser> dunno if grep can search multiple files though :(
23:10:08 <Zuu> Its used in the road vehicle details window.
23:13:45 <andythenorth> only one wagon for maglev, one for mono
23:13:47 <Zuu> STR_VEHICLE_DETAILS_CARGO_EMPTY contains :{LTBLUE}Empty. The string that contains the x, is STR_VEHICLE_DETAILS_CARGO_FROM_MULT
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23:13:59 <Superuser> Talking of the future®
23:14:00 <andythenorth> you can go back to bed, everything is finished
23:14:06 <Superuser> I have seen the future of the web forum
23:14:15 * andythenorth is going to bed, everything is definitely finished for today
23:14:21 <Superuser> Discourse is web forum 2.0
23:14:30 <Pikka> tomorrow you can work out av9 for me :)
23:14:40 <Zuu> Superuser: STR_VEHICLE_DETAILS_CARGO_FROM_MULT is used for the details window of trains.
23:14:49 <andythenorth> I thought we did AV9 already?
23:14:59 <andythenorth> sikorsky, 737, 747
23:15:06 <Zuu> str = FreightWagonMult(item->cargo) > 1 ? STR_VEHICLE_DETAILS_CARGO_FROM_MULT : STR_VEHICLE_DETAILS_CARGO_FROM;
23:15:26 <Superuser> yes, seems insignificant, if you are keen on changing this though (a) you're probably very bored, and that's okay, and (b) you should do it to ALL the strings which require a multiplication sign
23:15:45 <andythenorth> Supercheese: jeff atwood eh?
23:16:58 <Superuser> I'm Superuser, not Supercheese
23:17:03 <Superuser> and yes, that's how I actually found it
23:17:10 <andythenorth> herp, silly old autocomplete
23:17:28 <andythenorth> Pikka: dc10 and antonov
23:17:35 <andythenorth> you want real planes, or pretend?
23:17:42 <Superuser> I thought he (rather surprisingly) had something of a hard-on for open source, despite being a .NET programmer
23:17:46 <Supercheese> "Large body airliner"
23:18:05 <Supercheese> "Small turboprop"
23:18:08 <andythenorth> next up, redesign FIRS
23:18:55 <andythenorth> I guess I'd better rename FIRS
23:18:59 <andythenorth> for the new version
23:19:08 <Pikka> rename it something that isn't an acronym
23:20:34 <Zuu> The new thing. Things named after what they are. For extra confusion. :-)
23:21:13 <Zuu> Like there is a GS called CitiBuilder which is a GS implementation of a city builder script among many different implementations.
23:22:15 <andythenorth> also, wikipedia has interesting facts about them
23:22:16 <Pikka> but it doesn't have to stand for anything :P
23:22:27 <andythenorth> CHIPS doesn't stand for anything
23:22:32 <andythenorth> it just goes with FISH
23:23:04 <Zuu> If it would be my set, it could be SuperIndustries or Industryless. :-)
23:23:08 <andythenorth> squid have the second most extreme penis-to-body-length ratio in the animal kingdom
23:23:13 <andythenorth> they can solve puzzles
23:23:20 <andythenorth> they have three hearts
23:23:30 <Pikka> I think instead of SQUID you should call it Calamari
23:24:13 <andythenorth> but I'll keep typing it wrong :
23:24:23 <andythenorth> see, I can't even type a :) properly
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23:25:09 <Pikka> I can't type it right either
23:25:46 <Zuu> Yeah, get a long name so that you can read/watch people saying "that neighbours script" because they cannot remember the full name. :-)
23:26:20 <Pikka> call it "Those Magnificent Men in their Flying Machines, Or How I Flew from London to Paris in 25 Hours 11 Minutes"
23:26:20 <andythenorth> Squid (CalaMaritime)
23:26:44 <andythenorth> so what should I delete in FIRS?
23:26:58 <andythenorth> probably nothing
23:27:02 <andythenorth> I am ok with FIRS
23:27:10 <andythenorth> just play the basic economies, all is well :P
23:27:15 <Pikka> probably, FIRS is a non-minimalist set
23:27:26 <Pikka> unlike GECKO or whatever I end up calling it
23:27:29 <andythenorth> the only thing I'd delete is the idea of providing valid industry chains from year 0
23:27:38 <andythenorth> which is a silly headache
23:54:12 <Superuser> if you set say a road vehicle to a go a really long way along which there are multiple depots, will it stop at more than one before reaching its destination if necessary? or just one?
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