IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-02-09
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00:00:18 <Pikka> don't let the bedships bite
00:01:03 <Supercheese> They're not bedbugs, they're bedfeatures
00:03:33 <Eddi|zuHause> somehow a 4-4-0 engine always screams wildwest-style toy engine to me...
00:03:47 <Wolf01> bed... I... must... resist!
00:06:25 <Supercheese> 4-4-0 American :)
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00:06:40 <Eddi|zuHause> in germany, early engines were 1B (2-4-0) or 1A1 (2-2-2), but the development got rather towards 1'C (2-6-0) rather than 2'B (4-4-0)
00:08:03 <Eddi|zuHause> there were a few experimental 2'B1' (4-4-2) engines, but it rather quickly resulted in 2'C1' (4-6-2)
00:09:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i imagine the americans rather had problems with axle load early on, hence using 2 axle bogies instead of single leading axles
00:10:13 <Supercheese> Can you ignore entire threads? Have them never trigger "new posts"?
00:10:37 <Supercheese> Darn, I'd love to /ignore the Time Length nonsense thread
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00:27:46 <Wolf01> gah, I can't resist... bed calls
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00:41:34 <Supercheese> "b) hiding "AI Only" vehicles from a human player (for example, street traffic cars)."
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00:46:05 <Eddi|zuHause> whoever has to point out they know what they're doing probably doesn't know what they're doing :p
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08:05:57 <Supercheese> Blaaaaarg, transfer orders screw everything up
08:06:13 <Supercheese> Transfer and take cargo, whoops, they take back the cargo they just unloaded
08:06:21 <Supercheese> can't leave some coaches empty
08:08:46 <Supercheese> unless I use some ridiculous combination of autorefit orders
08:12:06 <Supercheese> Blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarg some more, can't choose 2 fixed cargoes to autorefit consists to
08:12:21 <Supercheese> Autorefit to Coal and Engineering Supplies
08:12:25 <Supercheese> Nope, can't do that
08:17:43 <Supercheese> HAH, I did it anyway
08:19:54 <Supercheese> "Pick up livestock and grain from this farm, transfer them both at another station, autorefit at that station to farm supplies BUT don't take any livestock or grain back."
08:20:30 <Supercheese> Go to transfer (transfer and leave empty).
08:20:55 <Supercheese> Go to transfer (autorefit to Coal) [there is no coal at this station, this prevents the grain wagons from loading grain again]
08:21:40 <Supercheese> Go to transfer (Transfer and take cargo with autorefit to farm supplies) [this unloads the livestock that were picked back up from the previous order and ensures the train now leaves with only farm supplies]
08:21:50 <Supercheese> Go to farm (autorefit to grain)
08:21:56 <Supercheese> Go to farm (autorefit to livestock)
08:22:38 <Supercheese> I should just use separate trains for livestock and grain, all this wizardry wouldn't be required :S
08:25:08 <Supercheese> also this method only works if the grain wagons are refittable to something else
08:25:14 <Supercheese> and the livestock wagons too
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08:42:24 <Supercheese> Whoops, can't autorefit from coal to grain
08:42:32 <Supercheese> and no error message to say that
08:43:12 <Flygon> Supercheese: You are a very brave man
08:43:42 <Supercheese> It should work, and damnit if I'm going to surrender
08:44:13 <Supercheese> well, actually I am going to surrender and build separate livestock and grain trains
08:44:42 <Supercheese> a great many things?
08:44:48 <Flygon> Orders that're programmable to handle only loading and unloading SOME wagons
08:45:32 <Flygon> This'd be great for having BR125 sets in UKRS2 not load mail >____>
08:46:05 <Supercheese> Can't refit to non-mail, eh?
08:48:29 <Supercheese> Yeah, transfer orders bollocks everything up
08:48:43 * Supercheese will never transfer stuff again
08:48:53 <Supercheese> (not really, but meh :P )
08:49:02 <Supercheese> CargoDist is horribly worse
08:49:18 <Supercheese> I've never played with CargoDest though
08:49:26 <Supercheese> they should be different
08:49:29 <LSky`> random question, i have a patch file combining daylength/infrasharing/cargodist thats compiled against r26442/r24663. in the advanced settings though, the fee options for infrasharing show as (undefined string)
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08:49:53 <LSky`> i think theres something off with the diff file still
08:50:56 <LSky`> just not sure where to look or what to do about it
08:51:06 <Supercheese> Which string is missing?
08:51:13 <Supercheese> The bottom-description or the main one?
08:51:31 <LSky`> the values you can set in the advanced settings, for the actual costs
08:51:46 <peter1138> eh, doesn't new initialise memory?
08:51:49 <LSky`> "daily track toll for trains: (unfdefined string) per 1000 tonnes
08:52:05 <LSky`> and the other 3 as well
08:52:18 <Supercheese> A recent commit changes stuff with string params
08:53:17 <LSky`> the client does actually run by the way, though silly enouhg, i cant actually find the in game menu for IS -_-
08:53:45 <Supercheese> Hmm, 246XX was a while ago
08:53:53 <Supercheese> lots of commits since then
08:54:12 <LSky`> true, but the latest IS was even longer ago, i believe
08:54:52 <LSky`> at least, the last 'official' patch was in 2010
08:55:54 <Supercheese> I'm a singleplayer-only guy, I don't have too much use for IS :P
08:56:26 <LSky`> people have been asking for IS on my server for a while now
08:56:37 <Supercheese> It does sound very nice if you're doing multiplayer
08:56:40 <LSky`> but its not particularly easy to get going
08:56:41 <Supercheese> well, a bunch of patches sound nice :D
08:56:53 <Supercheese> of course they have bugs, etc.
08:57:47 <LSky`> especially since theyve not been recently updated
08:58:20 <Supercheese> Well, I should sleep
08:58:30 <Supercheese> I need to be awake in 7.5 hours
08:58:49 <Supercheese> scratch that, 7 hours
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09:04:34 <andythenorth> Pikka: new models have big stats changes or incremental improvements?
09:13:55 <andythenorth> Pikka: of any vehicle type
09:14:52 <Pikka> stat change size = (difference between start and finish) / (number of generations)? :)
09:15:03 <andythenorth> I think the answer is 'both'
09:15:27 <andythenorth> also a 'trash' icon on each vehicle row of the relevant 'all my vehicles' window
09:15:42 <andythenorth> because 10 small ferries can be replaced by 5 large ferries
09:15:48 <andythenorth> or 5 much faster ferries
09:16:06 <andythenorth> and goto depot, delete, is tedious
09:16:09 <andythenorth> especially for trucks
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09:16:38 <andythenorth> it's garbage collection basically
09:16:45 <andythenorth> mark for deletion, send to depot
09:20:27 <Pikka> mb, what would we do without him?
09:26:16 <andythenorth> we've had this discussion before many times apparently
09:26:19 <andythenorth> I wasn't there :P
09:26:30 <andythenorth> and it's moot anyway, for reasons that should be obv.
09:26:44 <andythenorth> but I'm interested what he says anyways
09:27:08 <Pikka> yes, if he was looking for universal agreement on the "right way" to do TTD, he's looking in the wrong place
09:27:20 <Pikka> I was just telling people what I was up to and inviting them to comment :)
09:28:16 <Pikka> but no, I was sighing at mb for the other thread, really ;)
09:29:35 <andythenorth> oh he's missed the point there a bit
09:42:02 <andythenorth> log tugs probably belong in HEQS anyway :P
09:43:03 <andythenorth> small ferry, big ferry
09:43:18 <andythenorth> meh, steam -> diesel is such a boring transition for ships
09:43:27 <andythenorth> compared to ship -> hydrofoil
09:43:45 <Pikka> well, there's no need to make a big deal of it
09:44:13 <Pikka> you just have one ship that looks like a steam ship, then the next one looks like a diesel ship. no need really to even tell the player what the propulsion system supposedly is :)
09:44:29 <andythenorth> UKRS 2 manages steam -> diesel well
09:46:28 <Pikka> ships have fewer properties to differentiate
09:47:31 <Pikka> although that said, there's not any "difference" between steam and diesel railway locomotives in TTD per se
09:47:42 <Pikka> they still have all the same features and all the same properties :)
09:48:05 <andythenorth> dieseeisals are cheaper to run
09:48:08 <andythenorth> so you can have more :P
09:48:18 <andythenorth> and they have higher TE, so you can also have fewer :P
09:48:34 <Pikka> yeah, but only because they have those values, if you see what I mean :P
09:49:31 <Pikka> one loco has high costs or low TE or whatever, the other has different, but there's no innate connection between being steam or diesel. just like there isn't with ships.
09:50:05 <andythenorth> basically, for an 1870 start, I need to drop in 'better' ships around 1900 and 1930
09:50:10 <andythenorth> some happen to be diesel
09:50:18 <andythenorth> but that's non-critical
09:50:23 <andythenorth> so how are they 'better'
09:50:39 <Pikka> why do they need to be 'better'?
09:50:48 <andythenorth> otherwise why bother?
09:50:54 <andythenorth> except the old model is withdrawn
09:51:15 <Pikka> if the new model is just the same as the old one, don't bother with it
09:51:19 <andythenorth> how does a new vehicle advance the gameplay?
09:51:42 <Pikka> make it bigger or faster or cheaper
09:52:09 <Pikka> if your new (diesel) ship isn't bigger or faster or cheaper than your old (steam) ship, either leave it out or change its stats so that it is.
09:52:22 <andythenorth> not wanting to reach for straws, but passenger comfort?
09:53:19 <Pikka> I dunno, I haven't tried to make cargo aging an interesting mechanic
09:53:30 <Pikka> if you think you can do it, have a go :P
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10:32:47 <andythenorth> ok so I need an acronym for a new ship set
10:33:27 <andythenorth> Some Quite Useful Interestingly Designed Ships
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10:40:17 <andythenorth> 10 freight ships
10:40:23 <andythenorth> not as strict as pikka
10:40:27 <andythenorth> but ships != trains :P
10:42:46 <Alberth> I don't know what pikka does :)
10:52:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd say make fewer mixed ships
10:53:38 <Eddi|zuHause> 1 small car ferry (40 passengers or 10t cargo)
10:53:45 <V453000> is my name for ships :P
10:53:53 <Eddi|zuHause> 3 large car ferries (1950, 1970, 1990)
10:54:26 <Eddi|zuHause> before that only "dedicated" cargo ships
10:55:11 <Eddi|zuHause> also: cargo holds :p
10:55:41 <Eddi|zuHause> (freight ships have large capacity but few "holds", ferries have smaller capacity but many many holds)
10:56:05 <MNIM> SQUID: Ships Quite Useful and Interestingly Designed?
10:56:33 <MNIM> Eddi: none from a later day?
10:57:22 <MNIM> I often play from 1900 to 2100 (or even longer)
10:57:34 <MNIM> and quite likely I am not the only one.
10:57:41 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: so what? you use the same ships over 100 years
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10:58:09 <MNIM> yeah, but that gets boring without new developments.
10:58:31 <Eddi|zuHause> can't have everything ;)
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11:00:23 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: important developments may be [sail->]steam->diesel and crates->containers
11:00:52 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and you need something that makes the hydrofoils less overpowered
11:01:24 <Eddi|zuHause> there is currently no reason at all to prefer a larger slower ship over a smaller faster one
11:03:40 <MNIM> I can imagine large solar or wind powered ships in the 2050s
11:12:55 <Eddi|zuHause> wind powered ships, we had those in the 1800s already...
11:18:14 <oskari89> Why the Beta 2 haven't been posted to OpenTTD frontpage O_o
11:18:42 <oskari89> It's there on download testing but still..
11:18:50 <Eddi|zuHause> apparently nobody has time
11:21:17 <Alberth> oskari89: write a nice announcement
11:21:32 <Alberth> (although I have no posting powers)
11:31:01 <oskari89> Seems that there's bug in that version
11:31:26 <MNIM> Eddi|zuHause: and we were idiots to dump them
11:32:21 <oskari89> With dense ai-generated roads
11:33:11 <oskari89> Placed two stations at oil refinery and metal works
11:34:18 <oskari89> But when i am giving orders to vehicle that serves those, there's a error...
11:34:47 <oskari89> "Can't insert new order, vehicle can't go to that station"
11:35:07 <oskari89> But there's nothing which would block that vehicle?
11:35:11 <Alberth> bus station instead of truck station?
11:35:22 <Alberth> default station for articulated trucks?
11:35:24 <oskari89> Nope, it's truc station
11:35:45 <oskari89> Articulated trucs can't use default stations?
11:35:50 <Alberth> that won't work indeed
11:35:55 <Alberth> they cannot make the turns
11:35:58 <oskari89> Okay, that was new to me :P
11:36:33 <oskari89> "Can't make road vehicle turn around"
11:44:13 <andythenorth> Haul Anchor, Keep East
11:44:27 <andythenorth> Cruising Over Deeps
11:45:10 <andythenorth> Ships A List Tidied
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11:48:33 <Alberth> JABS just a bunch of ships
11:53:45 <Eddi|zuHause> what was this word again that sounds like "FISH", but gets spelled completely different?
11:55:59 <Eddi|zuHause> GHOTI, that i meant
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12:21:28 <peter1138> i appear to have hit german youtube
12:23:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i think you should get the gist of it without understanding that much german
12:25:20 <oskari89> Is there currently random founding of towns in OpenTTD?
12:25:30 <oskari89> So town could be randomly founded somewhere?
12:25:37 <Eddi|zuHause> basically, he's working up the crowd at a carneval show, making it reply to common shoutouts
12:26:10 <Eddi|zuHause> "zicke zacke zicke zacke" - "heu heu heu" and "hip hip" - "hurra"
12:26:23 <Eddi|zuHause> and then he says "Sieg!"
12:26:41 <Eddi|zuHause> and when the obvious reply comes, he tries to sound embarrassed
12:26:57 <Eddi|zuHause> "this can't be true that there are so many 'old comrads' here"
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13:02:38 <Eddi|zuHause> no, they won't make it this election
13:02:49 <andythenorth> Provides Individually Reasonable Assets To Enable Shipping
13:03:49 <Alberth> obviously that name is reserved for pirate trading ;)
13:05:47 <andythenorth> Pirates Isn't Recursive At The End So
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13:21:30 <MNIM> Eddi|zuHause: funny. I was zapping recently and encountered a show called 'sieg heil und alaaf' on one of the german channels.
13:21:47 <MNIM> I was pretty much like 'wait, what?'
13:22:13 <MNIM> have germans been getting more relaxed about those themes these years?
13:22:31 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: i somehow doubt that
13:22:41 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: and this clip above is from 1973
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13:26:10 <MNIM> I noticed, but I always thought you guys were a bit icky whenever the n-word gets mentioned
13:28:07 <andythenorth> reverse acronym SEADOGS?
13:28:51 <Alberth> YASS yet another ship set
13:30:45 <MNIM> SEAS: Ships? Eek, Another Set!
13:31:01 <andythenorth> need something that goes with CHIPS
13:33:21 <andythenorth> obviously the name is far more important than what goes in the set :P
13:33:47 <MNIM> More Useless Ships To Anchor 'Round Docks
13:34:20 <Eddi|zuHause> SSWPA... Ship Set Without Pronouncable Acronym
13:35:43 <andythenorth> Cast Away To Sea
13:35:54 <MNIM> Craptastic Andythenorth Transport Ships?
13:36:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i doubt that cats really go well with chips
13:36:44 <andythenorth> I guess that might work
13:36:49 <andythenorth> or does it suck?
13:36:56 <MNIM> squid? what was that again
13:37:07 <andythenorth> Ships Quite Unique Individual Designs
13:37:20 <andythenorth> because there will be limited incremental improvements
13:37:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Now Everybody Wants Ships
13:37:29 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: pretty good :)
13:37:58 <Eddi|zuHause> call it NEWShips, just to annoy MB :)
13:38:07 <andythenorth> annoying MB is an over-rated sport :)
13:38:12 <MNIM> oh right, I proposed SQUID: Ships Quite Useful and Interestingly Designed myself
13:39:01 <andythenorth> Ships Have Anchors Ropes Knots
13:39:44 <andythenorth> de-acronym later
13:39:56 <andythenorth> now to actually figure out what it is :P
13:40:12 <andythenorth> 1. move the log tug to HEQS
13:40:22 <andythenorth> 2. only put necessary ships in SHARK
13:40:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i like the log tug
13:40:55 <Eddi|zuHause> HEQS should stick to road vehicles
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13:50:28 <Eddi|zuHause> why are you always so eager to remove the one thing that is interesting/not like everything else out there?
13:53:35 <andythenorth> everything must be uniform!
13:53:53 <andythenorth> also, in a set of 25 ships, how do I justify one that only carries wood?
13:54:03 <andythenorth> or is that exactly precisely upside-down thinking?
13:54:21 <Eddi|zuHause> how do you justify the other 24 ships?
13:54:37 <Eddi|zuHause> a log tug would be the cheapest way to move logs
13:55:39 <andythenorth> this is an interesting way of thinking about it
13:55:46 <andythenorth> start with the log tug
13:55:50 <andythenorth> what else deserves to be in
13:56:08 <andythenorth> my concern with any set is avoiding 'bland'
13:56:15 <andythenorth> 'big' is one way to avoid 'bland'
13:56:35 <andythenorth> but that's too easy
13:58:08 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: do you think cargo aging is worth bothering with?
13:58:29 <Eddi|zuHause> for ships? yes, slower cargo aging makes it on-par with other transport types
13:58:41 <andythenorth> I am thinking between ships as well
13:58:49 <andythenorth> so old, open-deck passenger ships
13:58:57 <andythenorth> age much faster than ferries with cabins and bars and slot machines
13:59:00 <Eddi|zuHause> low cargo aging for non-perishable goods (coal, ore, etc...)
13:59:57 <andythenorth> ship technology progresses quite slowly I think
14:00:17 <andythenorth> over 150 years, probably not many models needed for each cargo / route niche
14:01:05 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, 1700: sail ships, 1800: steam ships, 1900: small diesel ships, 1950: large container ships
14:01:35 <andythenorth> yeah, not interested
14:01:46 <andythenorth> my games start 1870, never earlier
14:01:59 <andythenorth> making ships for Other People is a nice idea, but my time is short ;)
14:02:20 <Eddi|zuHause> make 3 or 4 ships per each of these eras
14:02:36 <andythenorth> something like this yes
14:02:44 <andythenorth> with rather large capacity difference
14:03:00 <andythenorth> so PAX / mail: 50 pax / 250 pax / 1000 pax
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14:03:24 <Eddi|zuHause> something like that, yes
14:04:12 <andythenorth> FISH 2 has big gaps in pax ships (not drawn), but works fine in gameplay
14:04:24 <michi_cc> andythenorth: Don't test your sets with "vehicles never expire" switched on, I don't want to end up with The One Ship Set :p
14:04:33 <andythenorth> michi_cc: point :)
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14:05:56 <andythenorth> this Island Trader thing should go
14:06:02 <andythenorth> it's like Universal Ultimate Ship
14:06:13 <andythenorth> fast, right size for many routes, refits anything
14:07:39 <andythenorth> also michi_cc can I moan about autorefit? :)
14:07:50 <andythenorth> or is the answer 'ignore it' o_O
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14:08:10 <michi_cc> To your moaning? Yes ;)
14:08:47 <Dakki> what happened to the 'stolen trees' newgrf?
14:09:05 <Eddi|zuHause> it's still around, somewhere
14:09:09 <Alberth> that was by SAC wasn't it?
14:09:30 <Eddi|zuHause> but search for the updated "treesw.grf" with snowy versions as well
14:10:40 <andythenorth> small, medium, very large
14:10:58 <andythenorth> if you want large ships, use a few medium ones
14:11:03 <michi_cc> Just pick three or four cargo groups (all liquid cargoes, all bulk cargoes, all piece goods etc) and allow unlimited autorefit in each group and none at all between groups. Prevents stuck cargo types, and ignore anybody who wants to autorefit between groups.
14:11:21 <andythenorth> michi_cc: that's what I've done for FISH 2
14:11:29 <andythenorth> only differently
14:11:36 <andythenorth> tankers refit any liquid
14:11:36 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes, and the "very large" category grows with each era, the "small" and "medium" ships stay the same size
14:11:43 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: precisely that
14:12:05 <andythenorth> there is always a niche for small
14:12:13 <andythenorth> but otherwise the game tends to 'bigger'
14:12:29 <andythenorth> industry production++ and town population++
14:13:03 <Eddi|zuHause> "speedboat": 1t, high speed :)
14:14:23 <Eddi|zuHause> and have them make really annoying sounds so people won't use 1000 of them to serve a route :p
14:15:11 <Eddi|zuHause> (i think the game just drops sounds if there are too many simultaneously)
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14:18:34 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: should I kill the freight barges? :P
14:18:52 <Eddi|zuHause> which ones are those?
14:19:57 <andythenorth> ach, wrong way of thinking about it
14:20:14 <andythenorth> what ships are fun to have? what ships are different to other ships?
14:20:28 <Eddi|zuHause> barges: fastest ship on canals
14:21:06 <Eddi|zuHause> keep the paddle steamers, make them the only choice in the steam era
14:21:23 <andythenorth> but I'm trying to start from clean sheet
14:21:26 <andythenorth> I keep forgetting that :P
14:21:28 <Eddi|zuHause> make the hydrofoils future-ish
14:21:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i think they're heavily overpowered
14:22:09 <andythenorth> what gameplay reason is there to provide inland and sea vessels?
14:22:18 <andythenorth> I can vary speed, but then I need to provide a range of capacities
14:22:37 <andythenorth> because industries and towns don't produce differently depending on inland / near sea
14:22:39 <Eddi|zuHause> keep the barges small/medium only
14:23:03 <andythenorth> big ones look bad in canals anyway
14:24:11 <Eddi|zuHause> inland barges are more a thing of opportunity, you need to have a river flowing in the right direction to make decent use of them
14:24:25 <Eddi|zuHause> or you have really high costs for canals
14:24:58 <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise it's usually easier to just serve the industries by train/truck
14:25:32 <andythenorth> ugh, ships with refittable capacity would shake this up :P
14:25:56 <andythenorth> I mean properly, specified as 'holds'
14:26:01 <andythenorth> multiple thereof
14:26:33 <andythenorth> well I'm unlikely to succeed at patching ottd for it :P
14:28:21 <Eddi|zuHause> even if there were "holds", they would have fixed sizes and just be handled by refit/autorefit to different cargos
14:28:32 <Eddi|zuHause> nothing the newgrf should worry about
14:28:56 <andythenorth> newgrf would specify the number of holds and size?
14:29:51 <Eddi|zuHause> possibly in a form similar to the articulated callback
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14:47:42 * Alberth throws in a stick of dynamite for extra fun
14:50:17 <andythenorth> I just can't do this thing pikka is doing for trains
14:50:44 <Alberth> why would you? you're a different person afaik
14:51:01 <Eddi|zuHause> do you really know? :p
14:51:18 <Eddi|zuHause> have you ever met both in the same room at the same time?
14:51:30 <Alberth> all the evidence found so far points in that direction :p
14:51:59 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: yes, I have seen them talk to each other in #openttd :)
14:52:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i have seen TB and DorpsGek talk to each other. that doesn't prove anything :p
14:52:35 <andythenorth> anyway trains can be composed into consists
14:52:41 <andythenorth> so capacity varies trivially
14:53:07 <andythenorth> and just saying 'build 10 of size xyz' is unsatisfactory
14:53:37 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: you claim that TB and DorpsGek are the same entity? you're crazy :)
14:59:20 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes, but having 10 different refits per cargo type is un-handleable
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14:59:52 <Eddi|zuHause> wrt refitable ship sizes
15:01:01 <andythenorth> I kind of gave up on that argument
15:01:11 <andythenorth> doesn't go anywhere useful ;)
15:01:39 <andythenorth> in the absence of old style FIRS supplies, is there *any* point to teeny ships (<20t / 30 pax)
15:04:03 <Eddi|zuHause> small village on a remote-ish island
15:04:13 <Eddi|zuHause> which you'd normaly cover by a bus service
15:04:30 <andythenorth> why not just run a bigger boat, with timetable instead of full load?
15:05:07 <Eddi|zuHause> as i mentioned earlier: "small ferry" - 40pax or 10t cargo
15:05:42 <andythenorth> currently there is one at 30 pax / 12t
15:05:50 <andythenorth> which gets used a bit
15:06:18 <Eddi|zuHause> you certainly don't need both 30pax and 60pax ships
15:06:41 <andythenorth> something like that
15:08:00 <andythenorth> realistic, or cheated?
15:08:09 <andythenorth> [they're already cheated somewhat in FISH]
15:09:44 <Eddi|zuHause> not too cheated, balance the decay rate instead
15:10:10 <Eddi|zuHause> so a 40km/h ship earns the same as a 120km/h train
15:25:31 <andythenorth> only one model for a class of ship
15:25:50 <andythenorth> no progression of type 1 -> type 2 filling same niche
15:26:23 <Alberth> makes "class" somewhat non-useful :) (or "model" of course)
15:28:51 <andythenorth> you just build 'small coaster' or whatever
15:29:00 <andythenorth> you don't worry about picking type 1 or type 2
15:29:50 <andythenorth> no date changes either
15:30:45 <V453000> fish aint enough ? :D
15:31:59 <andythenorth> I'm canning FISH 2
15:32:53 <andythenorth> starting a new ships project
15:34:24 <michi_cc> andythenorth: Progression is vital if you play with inflation enabled. The TTD inflation mechanics let the costs increase faster than the revenue, which means vehicles must get more efficient as time goes by.
15:35:01 <andythenorth> that's cos inflation is broken ;)
15:37:18 <michi_cc> Too many vehicles to buy is solved in a big part by playing with inflation, expiring vehicles and breakdowns (reliability is randomized by the game, which means there will always be a random subset of vehicles that are not usable for there low reliability).
15:37:39 <V453000> not like too many vehicles to buy is a problem ;)
15:38:09 <V453000> if there are too many equal vehicles to choose from, it is fault of the train set
15:39:12 <andythenorth> I think too many vehicles is boring
15:39:25 <andythenorth> I'm deleting most of them from FISH
15:39:38 <andythenorth> and probably won't bother with progression over time much
15:39:47 <andythenorth> canal boats didn't change much in 150 years
15:40:18 <andythenorth> I don't think I can get a ship set down to 10 vehicles though
15:40:24 <andythenorth> MB succeeded at that
15:44:16 <V453000> well if ship sprites change upon refit, you need like just a few for cargo
15:44:48 <V453000> "large universal cargo ship", medium, and what not
15:46:33 <andythenorth> they don't change on refit
15:46:40 <andythenorth> but otherwise I agree
15:46:55 <andythenorth> really really dumb
15:47:00 <andythenorth> I could drop autorefit
15:47:35 <andythenorth> means I have to have tankers
15:47:38 <andythenorth> could not have tankers
15:47:40 <V453000> uhm that doesnt change sprites?
15:47:54 <andythenorth> the cargo ships carry liquids in barrels anyway
15:48:06 <andythenorth> but tankers have always been in the game :P
15:48:43 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: have huge tankers only in the "container ship" era (1950+)
15:48:53 <Eddi|zuHause> before that, handle liquids in barrels
15:49:05 <andythenorth> I am +1 to that, except there's a really nice sprite for a 'large' tanker :)
15:49:11 <andythenorth> set design influenced by available sprites :P
15:54:48 <andythenorth> maybe I should delete the FIRS economy
15:54:53 <andythenorth> and remove some industries from FIRS
15:55:05 <andythenorth> it would compile faster, amongst other things
15:55:12 <andythenorth> the smaller Basic economies are better
15:55:12 <Eddi|zuHause> you certainly have the focus of... oh a butterly
15:55:27 <andythenorth> it all runs in the same direction :P
15:56:19 <andythenorth> I noticed FISH compile got faster due to being smaller
15:56:26 <andythenorth> faster FIRS compile would be welcome
16:04:54 <andythenorth> down to 5 tankers, 8 cargo ships
16:05:24 <andythenorth> that's about 50% removed
16:37:03 <andythenorth> what happened to the wider buy menu for ships?
16:59:53 <frosch123> maybe you downgraded :p
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17:03:59 <andythenorth> maybe I broke FISH :P
17:04:10 <andythenorth> nml says the buy menu sprites are 138px wide
17:04:16 <andythenorth> but they're not rendered that wide
17:04:28 <andythenorth> maybe I screwed up offsets
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17:23:37 <andythenorth> maybe I should remove *all* the sea ships
17:23:47 <andythenorth> just do inland vessels
17:23:56 <andythenorth> that's got to be better?
17:31:13 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24983 /trunk/src (5 files in 2 dirs) (2013-02-09 17:31:07 UTC)
17:31:14 <DorpsGek> -Change: Apply the same name sorting rules to content and NewGRF list as for the server list.
17:44:38 <andythenorth> ok, so I can't do the pikka 10 vehicle thing
17:44:51 <andythenorth> but I can do 40 ships for 150 years, without being stupid about it
17:44:59 <andythenorth> that's quite enough imho
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18:45:30 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24984 /trunk/src/lang (4 files in 2 dirs) (2013-02-09 18:45:20 UTC)
18:45:31 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:32 <DorpsGek> esperanto - 1 changes by LaPingvino
18:45:33 <DorpsGek> greek - 5 changes by Evropi
18:45:34 <DorpsGek> thai - 38 changes by khao9999
18:45:35 <DorpsGek> ukrainian - 23 changes by Strategy
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19:03:43 <andythenorth> have loaded the save
19:03:55 <Supercheese> I also posted the updated english.lngs
19:04:08 <Supercheese> you might have seen those already
19:04:13 <Alberth> were they out of date?
19:04:37 <Supercheese> Capitalization was made "proper", and the US english had zillions of needless duplicate strings
19:04:49 <Supercheese> I didn't realize you could only include the strings that were different
19:05:49 <Alberth> so more fallback to the base language now :)
19:06:04 <Supercheese> Au English has, like, only 2 entries :P
19:07:39 <Supercheese> Man, Voyager One is really good at pixel-pushing, he just churns out more trains for the Dutch set all the time
19:07:58 <Supercheese> dozens and dozens
19:15:10 <Alberth> andythenorth: I just committed the english changes of Supercheese, the US english changes removes all duplicates, is that wanted in a language file?
19:15:36 <Alberth> ie other languages tend to copy unchanged strings
19:15:38 <Supercheese> AU English as linked doesn't duplicate either
19:15:47 <Supercheese> but I dunno if that was intentional
19:15:52 <Supercheese> or just a lazy translator :P
19:16:11 <Alberth> the point is that other languages do copy those strings
19:16:24 <Supercheese> well, other languages have to change every string
19:16:28 <Supercheese> Englishes often don't
19:17:14 <Eddi|zuHause> what's missing is that other languages could define an explicit base lenguage
19:17:49 <Eddi|zuHause> like "german (switzerland)" could define german as base language, and only change the numbering etc.
19:17:57 <Supercheese> A Spanish-variant could define Spanish base and then not include duplicate strings
19:18:03 <Supercheese> Same of German-variants and so on
19:18:04 <Alberth> there is more missing in the current file format :)
19:18:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. "'" as thousand separator instead of "."
19:18:32 <Supercheese> Thousands not separated by commas break my brain @_@
19:18:52 <Supercheese> 3.796,51 is ridiculous
19:19:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see the point :p
19:19:31 <andythenorth> Alberth: removing unchanged strings is desirable, but not usually practical :P
19:19:42 <andythenorth> it reduces maintenance, but takes work to maintain :P
19:20:03 <Alberth> Supercheese: your call :)
19:20:42 <Supercheese> Well I am a sucker for consistency, so both AU and US english should either include all duplicate strings, or none of them
19:21:07 <Supercheese> currently I'm leaning towards no duplicates
19:21:36 <Alberth> ok, no duplicates it is :)
19:22:15 <Supercheese> I don't speak Aussie, so I can't maintain the AU English file :P
19:23:51 <andythenorth> the brewery accepts fruit, the tiles accept fruit, the station thinks fruit is accepted, but the cargo isn't moved to the industry :P
19:25:46 <Supercheese> Produce block issues?
19:26:02 <Supercheese> Produce won't produce with produce :D
19:27:50 <andythenorth> seems to be widespread for secondary industry
19:34:46 <andythenorth> I have a station that's claiming to accept scrap metal
19:38:25 <Eddi|zuHause> you sure you didn't set any weird transfer orders?
19:38:54 <andythenorth> I was using one station which overlapped source and destination
19:38:59 <andythenorth> with unload and take cargo
19:39:12 <Eddi|zuHause> ah yes, that is an explanation :)
19:39:18 <Eddi|zuHause> don't do that :)
19:39:26 <andythenorth> however I can't replicate the situation hyronymous has in his save
19:39:39 <andythenorth> it's broken in his save, but I can't figure out why :P
19:39:56 <andythenorth> the save involves insanely slow trains
19:40:07 <andythenorth> so I tested to see if I could replicate with any version of recent FIRS
19:40:18 <andythenorth> the only way I can do so is with the weird single station setup
19:40:33 <Eddi|zuHause> the industry closest to the station sign will get all cargo
19:41:15 <andythenorth> allegedly that was tested already
19:41:21 <andythenorth> I didn't due to very slow trains :P
19:41:45 <Eddi|zuHause> just destroy the industry in question (magic bulldozer) and see if that solves it
19:42:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't look at the actual savegame at the moment
19:51:36 <andythenorth> yeah, it was the other industry taking the cargo
19:51:49 <andythenorth> never trust someone else's report :P
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19:58:45 <Alberth> which other industry?
20:00:27 <Alberth> hmm, didn't see that one
20:00:43 <Alberth> your industry buildings blend in very well :)
20:03:18 <frosch123> colour code them, just make them pink and blue
20:03:29 <frosch123> no shading, just unicolor :p
20:05:34 <andythenorth> frosch123: you didn't happen to implement vehicle views whilst I wasn't looking?
20:05:49 <frosch123> i did not even wrote a spec :p
20:20:46 <andythenorth> what is the point of these giant tankers in FISH 2?
20:22:08 <andythenorth> no sensible industry set produces this much oil
20:22:26 <andythenorth> (1,800,000 litres capacity)
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20:23:19 <andythenorth> then they look stupid going up the river to the refinery
20:24:09 <frosch123> maybe they are meant for transfers
20:24:34 <frosch123> aren't ships usually used when trains cannot handle the amount anymore
20:24:39 <andythenorth> I've never used them in my games
20:24:47 <frosch123> without flatting all mountains and placing 32 tracks in parallel?
20:25:04 <frosch123> but yes, usually i build many ships rather than big ships
20:25:15 <andythenorth> better to deliver small amounts frequently
20:25:35 <frosch123> i also rarely build the long trams
20:25:41 <frosch123> usually medium only
20:26:15 <andythenorth> or I adjust the capacity down significantly
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20:37:56 <andythenorth> I'm accidentally making NewShips
20:38:03 <andythenorth> Michael got here a long time ago :)
20:39:15 <andythenorth> I am deleting ships left and right
20:39:20 <andythenorth> Dan will hate me :(
20:39:34 <frosch123> luckily fish 1 is still available :)
20:40:12 <andythenorth> FISH 2 is not getting any more work
20:40:17 <andythenorth> SQUID has killed it
20:41:19 <frosch123> is squid an oversized cargo?
20:42:08 <frosch123> do 1 800 000 litres suit a squid?
21:07:08 <Pikka> pie pie pie pie pie pie pie
21:43:06 <Pikka> not sure which side you're on, Alberth :)
21:43:39 <Pikka> are you saying GS's shouldn't try to manage the economy, or are you saying that industry GRFs shouldn't exist?
21:44:14 <Pikka> "complex" industry GRFs shouldn't exist
21:53:38 <Alberth> I am saying that even the game engine cannot manage current industry newgrfs (due to not having enough influence)
21:53:52 <Alberth> as such GS cannot do it either
21:54:13 * Alberth is asleep in an hour of two :)
21:54:39 <frosch123> at least you hope to :)
21:56:05 <Alberth> from past experience, I am confident that will work :)
21:57:32 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what i said, right? NewGRFs already have too much influence, you can't cut back on it to try to balance it
22:13:07 <andythenorth> for any given feature (trains / RVs / industry etc), there are things that could be delegated, if we were prepared to do the arguing
22:13:16 <andythenorth> so that newgrf is less influential
22:13:53 <Supercheese> Well, I am most proficient at coding newgrfs, so more power to them, say I
22:15:39 <frosch123> sometimes i wonder what happens when i lock in a newgrf author with an ai author like krinn into a room
22:16:14 <frosch123> would only one of them survive? or would they team up and kill me instead :p
22:32:41 <LordAro> everyone else would team up :)
22:33:03 <LordAro> with the possible exception of the Rondje authors :L
22:39:44 <andythenorth> new ship set has 29 ships, with 1 slot free for 'inspiration'
22:39:54 <andythenorth> it's a bit less logical than FISH :P
22:41:01 <Supercheese> Which were axed/which kept?
22:41:40 <Supercheese> Also: are they permanently gone or hidden behind a new parameter [Normal\Extended]?
22:42:08 <Supercheese> And no one can take it over because of your 10 layers of abstraction O_o
22:42:09 <frosch123> use the last slot for a squid then
22:42:40 <andythenorth> Supercheese: I think you misunderstand abstraction :)
22:42:43 <Supercheese> Although I could just pinch the graphics
22:43:08 <andythenorth> if you limit your changes to those the framework allows, you can keep the set running just by editing the .cfg file
22:43:11 <andythenorth> which is plain text
22:43:41 <andythenorth> rename it LOSTFISH
22:44:06 <Supercheese> Well, you've a .cfg file building Python building NML building NFO building a .grf, no?
22:44:15 <Supercheese> or well, NML can go straight to grf I guess
22:44:20 <andythenorth> python builds nml from the .cfg file
22:44:57 <andythenorth> hmm, I've done an evil
22:45:01 <Supercheese> so one more layer over NML then
22:45:13 <Supercheese> NML really is just higher-level NFO though
22:45:29 <Supercheese> with some automatic code generation wizardry
22:45:43 <Supercheese> i.e. Spritelayout 'arguments'
23:12:53 <andythenorth> any need for a big ship pre 1900?
23:12:58 <andythenorth> big means > 800t
23:13:03 <andythenorth> I can't find a use for them
23:13:31 <Supercheese> I used one before...
23:13:34 <Supercheese> and then he leaves
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23:15:10 <Supercheese> I was saying I used one in the 1890s
23:15:17 <Supercheese> But not really before
23:15:43 <Supercheese> I'm using a single 960t ship
23:15:56 <Supercheese> rest are 540t ships and smaller
23:16:28 <Supercheese> 960t is biggest currently available, though if there was one bigger I wouldn't have a use for it yet
23:16:49 <Supercheese> game year is 1902
23:18:21 <Supercheese> Although a station has just exceeded train capacity
23:18:41 <Supercheese> 2,000t of metal waiting and the trains train throughput is at max
23:18:49 <Supercheese> time to switch to a canal
23:20:04 <andythenorth> I think the 960t ship has no place :)
23:20:10 <andythenorth> it's gone in SQUID
23:53:55 <Supercheese> I really should stop posting at Simuscape
23:54:03 <Supercheese> it does far more harm than good
23:54:16 <Supercheese> posting/suggesting
23:54:25 <Supercheese> It won't make any difference
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